Consequences of L drivers driving unaccompanied

opfleet

What are the legal consequences of L drivers driving unaccompanied if they:

(a) Are stopped at a checkpoint by Gardai without a qualified driver
(b) Cause an accident without the presence of a qualified driver. What will happen insurance wise? Will there be cover? Will the car been seen as having no insurance because of absence of qualified driver?

Dravokivich

The car is confiscated, it doesn't matter who owns the car. The owner can also be charged now for allowing you to drive unaccompanied. Regardless of permission to use it being expressed or not.

Driving without someone accompanying you doesn't void your insurance. However being involved in an accident and flaunting your requirements will see you financially penalised later.

In this case, it appears that the learner was considered not to be insured.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057792631/1/

Dravokivich

Karsini wrote: »

In this case, it appears that the learner was considered not to be insured.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057792631/1/

Read through the thread and ignore the hearsay. Their insurance company is still accounatble to 3rd parties.

Cows Go µ

The insurance company will pay any third party claim but they may go after the insured to get the money back (this is happening more often)

meathstevie

Legally speaking you're driving without a licence and as a consequence you can't be insured. There's no such thing as insurance for unlicenced driving. The owner of the car, if not the driver, can be prosecuted for permitting no licence and no insurance.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Exactly. There is a world of difference between your insurance being valid and the obligation insurers have under the RTA to compensate a 3rd party.

opfleet

So basically if I crash into someone and I am unaccompanied, my insurance will cover the person I crash into but not me?

Dravokivich

If you only had 3rd party insurance anyway, there's not much more you'd expect.

FishOnABike

opfleet wrote: »

So basically if I crash into someone and I am unaccompanied, my insurance will cover the person I crash into but not me?

That, but may pursue you for the costs of the third party claim.

biko

This PDF shows the points you will get your learner permit.
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Offences%2017%20April%202016.pdf

opfleet

biko wrote: »

This PDF shows the points you will get your learner permit.

Heard of one guy who was stopped. Didnt have plates or his licence with him. He was given 10 days to hand his licence in to which he did. But the guard never asked him him if he was on a learner permit. And because he had not plates up, the guards didnt realize he was a learner permit holder. So he got away it...

biko

Don't assume you will get away with it. Don't trust what you hear other people get away with.
Also, if you hit someone there will be hell to pay, besides the regret and anguish.

opfleet

My friend is not Irish and has a full driving licence from France which he got two years ago. Can he still be my accompanied driver?

dennyk

Any EU license should be treated the same as an Irish license, so yes, assuming it's a valid full license for whatever class of vehicle you are driving and he's had it for at least two years, he should be able to act as your accompanying driver.

meathstevie

Dravokivich wrote: »

The car is confiscated, it doesn't matter who owns the car. The owner can also be charged now for allowing you to drive unaccompanied. Regardless of permission to use it being expressed or not.

Driving without someone accompanying you doesn't void your insurance. However being involved in an accident and flaunting your requirements will see you financially penalised later.

A car being driven without the owners permission is a stolen car. Also driving while clearly in breech of the most important condition of your learners permit is driving without a licence. You simply aren't licenced to drive alone when on a learners permit. Loads of discretion has been applied in the past but that will not continue much longer.

meathstevie

dennyk wrote: »

Any EU license should be treated the same as an Irish license, so yes, assuming it's a valid full license for whatever class of vehicle you are driving and he's had it for at least two years, he should be able to act as your accompanying driver.

An EU licence and an Irish licence ( which is also an EU licence ) are equivalent in the eyes of the law. You can drive on an EU licence in Ireland for as long as it's valid ( not passed it's expiry date ). You can at any time swap an EU licence for an Irish one when you're resident here.

meathstevie

opfleet wrote: »

My friend is not Irish and has a full driving licence from France which he got two years ago. Can he still be my accompanied driver?

Your friend's licence is a full licence. I'm not sure how long the driver has to be qualified for to be able to accompany. Check the rsa website to be sure.

Skatedude

meathstevie wrote: »

Your friend's licence is a full licence. I'm not sure how long the driver has to be qualified for to be able to accompany. Check the rsa website to be sure.

At least 2 years.

Dravokivich

meathstevie wrote: »

A car being driven without the owners permission is a stolen car. Also driving while clearly in breech of the most important condition of your learners permit is driving without a licence. You simply aren't licenced to drive alone when on a learners permit. Loads of discretion has been applied in the past but that will not continue much longer.

If you have a key and regularly permitted use of the car, it wouldn't be considered theft to drive someone else's car without their presence or expressed say so in that incident.

Personally, I don't believe another party should be accountable. Unaccompanied learners should just have their permit revoked.

boardsuser1

This is sadly the consequences of L drivers driving unaccompanied.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/driver-in-death-crash-was-policing-authority-intern-35240945.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/driver-gets-suspended-sentence-over-kilworth-road-deaths-1.2876749

The Muppet

Dreadful and all as those cases are you can't really gauge how much a problem learners driving unaccompanied is in reLatin to casualties on our roads.


There has to be data available to show how many L drivers cause serious accidents. The fact that one or two instances are highlighted to publicisé the issue rather than extensive date l re ads me to think it may not be as serious an issue as some would want us to believe.

The vast majority of irish drivers have at some stage driven on l plates while unaccompanied .

boardsuser1

The Muppet wrote: »

Dreadful and all as those cases are you can't really gauge how much a problem learners driving unaccompanied is in reLatin to casualties on our roads.


There has to be data available to show how many L drivers cause serious accidents. The fact that one or two instances are highlighted to publicisé the issue rather than extensive date l re ads me to think it may not be as serious an issue as some would want us to believe.

The vast majority of irish drivers have at some stage driven on l plates while unaccompanied .

When it was legal to do so.

I'm no exception.

They are called learners for a reason however.

The Muppet

It was done when it wasn't legal to do so too .

I'd be more in favour of it if we had a country wide public transport system fit for purpose but we don't.

Bad drivers should be punished whether they be on a permit of full , the people who had legitimate penalty points quashed are a far bigger danger on the roads than learners imo . Should there be a push to reinstate those points ?

meathstevie

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you have a key and regularly permitted use of the car, it wouldn't be considered theft to drive someone else's car without their presence or expressed say so in that incident.

Personally, I don't believe another party should be accountable. Unaccompanied learners should just have their permit revoked.

All parties involved in the matter should be held accountable. By your logic it would be ok for me to give my shotgun to a local criminal to go and rob the local Centra.

Dravokivich

meathstevie wrote: »

All parties involved in the matter should be held accountable. By your logic it would be ok for me to give my shotgun to a local criminal to go and rob the local Centra.

That's not my logic at all. The argument would be that someone you normally permitted use of the shot gun, at some point used it for criminal activities. Keep up with yourself.

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

This is sadly the consequences of L drivers driving unaccompanied.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/driver-in-death-crash-was-policing-authority-intern-35240945.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/driver-gets-suspended-sentence-over-kilworth-road-deaths-1.2876749

I'd put that down to wreckless driving. It's not unique to the licensed status of the driver. Them being an unaccompanied learner has no bearing on it and only pushes a perception issue towards other learners.

boardsuser1

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's not my logic at all. The argument would be that someone you normally permitted use of the shot gun, at some point used it for criminal activities. Keep up with yourself.



I'd put that down to wreckless driving. It's not unique to the licensed status of the driver. Them being an unaccompanied learner has no bearing on it and only pushes a perception issue towards other learners.

Do you believe that if her mother/father/sibling/A.N. Other was in the car the same type of driving would have occurred?

Dravokivich

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Do you believe that if her mother/father/sibling/A.N. Other was in the car the same type of driving would have occurred?

Licensed drivers display that level of wrecklessness every day. Their status is irrelevant.

boardsuser1

Dravokivich wrote: »

Licensed drivers display that level of wrecklessness every day. Their status is irrelevant.

Learner drivers are more vulnerable than licensed drivers.

There is adequate punishments available for licensed drivers also, the issue is a lack of inforcement,again not the fault of the gardai themselves.

Dravokivich

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Learner drivers are more vulnerable than licensed drivers.

There is adequate punishments available for licensed drivers also, the issue is a lack of inforcement,again not the fault of the gardai themselves.

I'd expect the punishments would be the same regardless of status.

I'm not sure where vulnerability comes into it.

It's absolutely lazy to point the finger at it being down to the fact it was "an unaccompanied learner." That is merely circumstantial, when the issue was primarily presented as unfamiliarity with a part of the road they were on.

Alanstrainor

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's absolutely lazy to point the finger at it being down to the fact it was "an unaccompanied learner." That is merely circumstantial, when the issue was primarily presented as unfamiliarity with a part of the road they were on.

Nothing lazy about it. Lack of experience and skill makes people react poorly to the unknown.

The statistics speak for themselves:

between 2012 and 29 November 2016, 42 unaccompanied learner drivers were involved in fatal road traffic collisions

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/unaccompanied-learner-drivers-at-higher-risk-of-road-death-1.1793505

Unaccompanied learner drivers are eight times more likely to be involved in a fatal crash compared with those accompanied by an experienced motorist, research from the Road Safety Authority shows.

Dravokivich

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Nothing lazy about it. Lack of experience and skill makes people react poorly to the unknown.

The statistics speak for themselves:



https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/unaccompanied-learner-drivers-at-higher-risk-of-road-death-1.1793505

I'm from the point of view that unaccompanied learners should have their permits revoked. But I can't just accept something that isn't thoroughly assessed.

"involved." solely means they were present.

I work in reports day in day out. Saying something just happened a number of times doesn't explain what it is. I'd lose my job with that. I'd love to have somewhere to review these more thoroughly, but accidents in this country rarely have any significant investigation, nor outcomes published. Someone's presence alone, doesn't mean they are generally to blame.

padser

Alanstrainor wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/unaccompanied-learner-drivers-at-higher-risk-of-road-death-1.1793505

RSA have a habit or putting out outrageously misleading numbers.

You would really want to dig in in detail into how they arrived at an "8 times more likely to be in a fatal crash" statistic before putting any faith in it.

I'm not even sure how they would have all the data you would need to accurately assess that (unless they have a good dataset of journeys taken accompanied / unaccompanied etc, with enough data on the drivers to control and make it a like for like comparison)

I'd eat my hat if that "8 times" stat stands up to any scrutiny.

grogi

The Muppet wrote: »

The vast majority of irish drivers have at some stage driven on l plates while unaccompanied .

Does not make it right by any means.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Bottom line is that an awful lot of Irish motorists have an unhealthy disdain for driving laws and it is beyond time where new entrants to our roads are encouraged or pursuaded to break the cycle. No other modern country turns a blind eye to novices being given free reign on the road

boardsuser1

What i see everyday is complete madness.

Just a sample:

Running red/amber lights.
parking in the yellow box at junctions.
No lights on in fog/rain/darkness
Fog lights on always on front and rear.
full beams on constantly.
Undertaking/dangerous overtaking.
Not using indicators.
Tailgating.

The Muppet

grogi wrote: »

The Muppet wrote: »

The vast majority of irish drivers have at some stage driven on l plates while unaccompanied .

Does not make it right by any means.

That depends on you point of view, personally I dont see it as a major issue in itself , they cetainly do not have a monopoly on bad driving habits.

grogi

The Muppet wrote: »

That depends on you point of view, personally I dont see it as a major issue in itself , they cetainly do not have a monopoly on bad driving habits.

Well, if someone cannot follow a simple rule not to drive alone, how can we assume they will with other rules?

The sooner everyone understands that permit is not a license, the better for everyone.

The Muppet

It may not be possible to follow the rule . People need to get around to work etc' I don't think it helps to criminalise such people ,as many would have no other option if they wish to work.
If they are driving and not drawing attention to themselves by displaying poor driving habits I'd leave them to it and focus resources on the real issues on our roads ie the abysmal standard of driving we all witness every day irrespective of whether they be permit or full licence holders.

You wouldnt need to assume anything , if they are driving dangerously they get punished like everyone else.

1hnr79jr65

The Muppet wrote: »

That depends on you point of view, personally I dont see it as a major issue in itself , they cetainly do not have a monopoly on bad driving habits.

Would you allow yourself to be a passenger on a plane or train or ferry where the pilot/driver is on a permit without supervision and unqualified to operate that mode of transport?

If your answer is a firm NO then same should apply to cars.

If you answer is YES, then you mostly likely have no regard for your own or others safety.

The system is there for a reason, to ensure all road users and pedestrians safety.

The Muppet

Yeah because there no difference between driving a private car and a train or aeroplane .

So where the data to support the idea that unaccompanied permit holders is the cause of the issues on our roads ?

boardsuser1

The Muppet wrote: »

Yeah because there no difference between driving a private car and a train or aeroplane .

So where the data to support the idea that unaccompanied permit holders is the cause of the issues on our roads ?

All are deadly weapons in the wrong/inexperienced/unqualified hands which can result in the loss of life.

The Muppet

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

All are deadly weapons in the wrong/inexperienced/unqualified hands which can result in the loss of life.

The same thing could be said about many things, Push bikes ,for instance.

Sue Pa Key Pa

The Muppet wrote: »

The same thing could be said about many things, Push bikes ,for instance.

You've just lost the remnants of any reasonable argument you may have had with that nonsense

Graham

The Muppet wrote: »

So where the data to support the idea that unaccompanied permit holders is the cause of the issues on our roads ?

Regardless of statistics, permit holders have not demonstrated they are safe to operate a vehicle unaccompanied.

If the permit holder thinks they have attained the necessary standards to drive unaccompanied, the obvious course of action is to take their test.

If a permit holder does not feel they have yet reached the standard required to pass the driving test, it is reasonable to assume they are not yet safe to operate a vehicle unaccompanied.

Alanstrainor

The Muppet wrote: »

It may not be possible to follow the rule . People need to get around to work etc' I don't think it helps to criminalise such people ,as many would have no other option if they wish to work.
If they are driving and not drawing attention to themselves by displaying poor driving habits I'd leave them to it and focus resources on the real issues on our roads ie the abysmal standard of driving we all witness every day irrespective of whether they be permit or full licence holders.

You wouldnt need to assume anything , if they are driving dangerously they get punished like everyone else.

This thread is becoming absurd. So you disagree with the RSA statistics, but provide none of your own? Even simple logic would say that inexperienced drivers could not be considered good or even capable without some sort of testing. Even in an ideal situation whereby a learner driver has completed 12 lessons and passed their driving test, there is nothing to say that they are good. But they have proved that they are at least capable in a very simplistic and structured test. In an ideal world the driving test would include motorway driving, night driving and possibly skid pan testing if we want to get a really high standard here.

I don't know what solution you are suggesting here. Let all learner permit drivers drive alone just because they have to get to school or work? Sorry no. Driving is a privilege and not a right. You can apply for your learner permit when you're 17, and even start your lessons soon after. Applying for a test can happen any time after having your permit for 6 months, and such a time as you have completed your 12 mandatory lessons.

The Muppet

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Nothing lazy about it. Lack of experience and skill makes people react poorly to the unknown.

The statistics speak for themselves:



https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/unaccompanied-learner-drivers-at-higher-risk-of-road-death-1.1793505

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Would you allow yourself to be a passenger on a plane or train or ferry where the pilot/driver is on a permit without supervision and unqualified to operate that mode of transport?

If your answer is a firm NO then same should apply to cars.

If you answer is YES, then you mostly likely have no regard for your own or others safety.

The system is there for a reason, to ensure all road users and pedestrians safety.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

This thread is becoming absurd. So you disagree with the RSA statistics, but provide none of your own? Even simple logic would say that inexperienced drivers could not be considered good or even capable without some sort of testing. Even in an ideal situation whereby a learner driver has completed 12 lessons and passed their driving test, there is nothing to say that they are good. But they have proved that they are at least capable in a very simplistic and structured test. In an ideal world the driving test would include motorway driving, night driving and possibly skid pan testing if we want to get a really high standard here.

I don't know what solution you are suggesting here. Let all learner permit drivers drive alone just because they have to get to school or work? Sorry no. Driving is a privilege and not a right. You can apply for your learner permit when you're 17, and even start your lessons soon after. Applying for a test can happen any time after having your permit for 6 months, and such a time as you have completed your 12 mandatory lessons.

Absurd indeed but i wasn't the one who introduced trains and planes into the discussion.

I dont need to introduce statistics , you did that earlier and those statistics show that only 8% of accidents "involve" unaccompanied learner permit drivers, thats not to say they were the cause of said accidents. So what about the the other 92 % of drivers involved in these accidents.


My soloution is go after all bad drivers rather than a group that statiscs show are not the main problem on our roads in the first place.

Alanstrainor

The Muppet wrote: »

My soloution is go after all bad drivers rather than a group that statiscs show are not the main problem on our roads in the first place.

Excuse me? What statistics? I've asked and I'm still waiting? You question the wording of involved, but provide no evidence to prove your point.

Going by the statistics I have provided it does show unaccompanied drivers are more dangerous on our roads. By all means the gardai should stop drivers for the illegal behaviours you have mentioned previously, but they should stop unaccompanied learners too.

1hnr79jr65

The Muppet wrote: »

Absurd indeed but i wasn't the one who introduced trains and planes into the discussion.

I dont need to introduce statistics , you did that earlier and those statistics show that only 8% of accidents "involve" unaccompanied learner permit drivers, thats not to say they were the cause of said accidents. So what about the the other 92 % of drivers involved in these accidents.


My soloution is go after all bad drivers rather than a group that statiscs show are not the main problem on our roads in the first place.

Planes and trains are other forms of engine propelled transport which require a qualified person to operate who regulatory bodies consider competent to operate without supervision the same as a car driver.

I am also not saying to just work on managing unaccompanied drivers, we of course need to tackle drink/drug/dangerous driving, those without Nct/Tax/Insurance. Also we have truck and van drivers who require CPC certs for competency to operate these vechicles, there are many forms of regulation that need adherence.

However unaccompanied drivers potentially pose a higher risk due to lack of experience or qualification.

The Muppet

Alanstrainor wrote: »

The Muppet wrote: »

My soloution is go after all bad drivers rather than a group that statiscs show are not the main problem on our roads in the first place.

Excuse me? What statistics? I've asked and I'm still waiting?

The statistic of 8% of unaccompanied permit holders being involved in accidents . It's hardly shockingly high figure is it.

Also 10 % of permit holder who had an accident were accompanied by a full licence holder at the time of the accident which would make you wonder whether being accompanied makes much of a difference really.

Those statistic are derived from the article you linked to earlier.

Graham

The Muppet wrote: »

The statistic of 8% of unaccompanied permit holders being involved in accidents . It's hardly shockingly high figure is it.

Also 10 % of permit holder who had an accident were accompanied by a full licence holder at the time of the accident which would make you wonder whether being accompanied makes much of a difference really.

Those statistic are derived from the article you linked to earlier.

So you appear to be saying unaccompanied permit holders are 10 times more likely to have an accident than accompanied permit holders.