Commercial tax

warbird

Apologies for covering old ground (if this is the case).

Looking at a Land Rover Discovery which is advertised as a 5 seat utility. It can be taxed commercially for €333. If I sign the goods only declaration is this all I need to get commercial tax on it ? (Galway City Council)

SaatanaArctica

Do you also have commercial insurance?

boardsuser1

warbird wrote: »

Apologies for covering old ground (if this is the case).

Looking at a Land Rover Discovery which is advertised as a 5 seat utility. It can be taxed commercially for €333. If I sign the goods only declaration is this all I need to get commercial tax on it ? (Galway City Council)

This is from Galway County Council

http://www.galway.ie/en/services/roads/motortax/tax/commercial/

warbird

Thanks guys. I can get the insurance the saving is almost €2K/yr on tax... Form RF111 is the self declaration which is OK. Vehicle is second hand and is currently commercial tax qualifying.

warbird

warbird wrote: »

Thanks guys. I can get the insurance the saving is almost €2K/yr on tax... Form RF111 is the self declaration which is OK. Vehicle is second hand and is currently commercial tax qualifying.

Get the seller to tax it for 12 months if you can, then you won't need to worry about it for a year at least and can sort it out then.

SaatanaArctica wrote: »

Do you also have commercial insurance?

Loads of people have commercials for private use, insuring them is not a major issue. You don't need to be using something commercially to get commercial insurance and commercial policies cover private use also

elperello

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

Get the seller to tax it for 12 months if you can, then you won't need to worry about it for a year at least and can sort it out then.

That's a good idea but also check that you can conform to the requirements on Council website . Otherwise you run the risk of "the computer says no".

warbird

warbird wrote: »

Thanks guys. I can get the insurance the saving is almost €2K/yr on tax... Form RF111 is the self declaration which is OK. Vehicle is second hand and is currently commercial tax qualifying.

How are you fixed for B & C, presuming you aren't a farmer ? This is required in addition to the declaration. If you don't have genuine business use and intend using the thing privately you do know you are asking a Garda to sign a declaration that is false

b) If you are otherwise self-employed, a Sole Trader or Company:

I. Please submit any letter or document you have received from the Revenue Commissioners over the last year clearly showing your trade or business is registered for tax purposes, i.e.

- New businesses who have not yet submitted returns to Revenue Commissioners;- please submit notice of registration for Income Tax or VAT
- For all other ongoing businesses;- please submit correspondence regarding your Self-Assessment or VAT returns or

II. If your vehicle is registered in your Limited Company Name, you may submit a printed copy of your current eTax Clearance Certificate for the Company.

c) If you are an employee:

I. Please submit a payslip, dated within the last 6 weeks, showing your name, PPS Number, and the name of your employer

and

II. A current letter from your employer on their official headed paper confirming:

- The nature of their trade or business and the goods you are carrying

- That you are required to carry these goods in your vehicle (registration number to be stated on letter) in the course of your employment by them

warbird

thanks all. I was vat reg until 2013 (construction collapse) now a lowly PAYE guy. But father is a farmer with herd number and good relationship with guards so seems viable.

Appreciate all the pointers.

Isambard

don't forget if you lie to your insurance , it could be void.

warbird

warbird wrote: »

thanks all. I was vat reg until 2013 (construction collapse) now a lowly PAYE guy. But father is a farmer with herd number and good relationship with guards so seems viable.

Appreciate all the pointers.

That makes it far more straight forward. Worst case scenario if you can't get the seller to tax it for a year just buy it in your fathers name , tax it then transfer it to you. Then if you can't manage to tax it yourself after the year you can transfer it over to your father again at the end of the year to tax it and back to you again.

Isambard wrote: »

don't forget if you lie to your insurance , it could be void.

I don't think that was suggested by anyone.

jeepcj

Make sure that its down as a crewcab not just 2 seater commercial on the logbook as it is now near impossible to convert them to crewcab,

Isambard

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

I don't think that was suggested by anyone.

didn't say it was, but if a Policy cannot be obtained other than by false declaration on the Proposal, then it would be void.

Isambard

Isambard wrote: »

didn't say it was, but if a Policy cannot be obtained other than by false declaration on the Proposal, then it would be void.

No one is suggesting false declaration to insurance. Giving a false declaration of business use to get the guards to sign a form has nothing to do with insurance. Having a business or having actual business use is not required to get commercial insurance. Wanting a commercial for transporting around your stuff, getting bags of coal from the shop, bringing your dog for a walk etc etc are perfectly valid reasons to want a commercial even if you don't use it for work (as far as insurance is concerned).

elperello

The Guard is only witnessing your signature.

Isambard

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

No one is suggesting false declaration to insurance. Giving a false declaration of business use to get the guards to sign a form has nothing to do with insurance. Having a business or having actual business use is not required to get commercial insurance. Wanting a commercial for transporting around your stuff, getting bags of coal from the shop, bringing your dog for a walk etc etc are perfectly valid reasons to want a commercial even if you don't use it for work (as far as insurance is concerned).

I was merely warning against making a false declaration to get commercial insurance.

None of the items you mention warrant commercial use, just the use of a Commercial.

elperello

Isambard wrote: »

I was merely warning against making a false declaration to get commercial insurance.

None of the items you mention warrant commercial use, just the use of a Commercial.

Nobody should make a false declaration to an insurance company.
You are right that the activities mentioned are not commercial use but they are covered if the policy covers SDP (social, domestic and pleasure).
The insurance companies are more practical and pragmatic than the Government.

Del2005

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

No one is suggesting false declaration to insurance. Giving a false declaration of business use to get the guards to sign a form has nothing to do with insurance. Having a business or having actual business use is not required to get commercial insurance. Wanting a commercial for transporting around your stuff, getting bags of coal from the shop, bringing your dog for a walk etc etc are perfectly valid reasons to want a commercial even if you don't use it for work (as far as insurance is concerned).

But you are suggesting to make lie on a statutory document. Both are illegal.

Isambard

Isambard wrote: »

I was merely warning against making a false declaration to get commercial insurance.

None of the items you mention warrant commercial use, just the use of a Commercial.

But as things stand the only type of insurance you can get on a commercial is commercial insurance so even if your use is fully private, even if you tax it privately you still have to get a commercial policy as its a commercial vehicle.

Del2005 wrote: »

But you are suggesting to make lie on a statutory document. Both are illegal.

It might be illegal but its a very minor rule to break in most people eyes. How many thousands of people regularly did 3 months on 3 months off with tax when you could declare a car "off the road" retrospectively (oh how I miss them days) and never did I ever hear someone get in trouble over it.

Isambard

no surprise there then.

hi5

Irish insurance companies for the most part don't offer private insurance on commercials but they do in other countries.

AXA Ireland...https://www.axa.ie/van-insurance/

Axa UK....http://www.axa.co.uk/insurance/personal/van/

We get a bad deal in Ireland.

NewApproach

In my experience you cannot get insurance on a commercial vehicle if you have no commercial activity. Yes, if you have a business you get insurance which covers private use, but you can't get private insurance on a commercial vehicle.

elperello

NewApproach wrote: »

In my experience you cannot get insurance on a commercial vehicle if you have no commercial activity. Yes, if you have a business you get insurance which covers private use, but you can't get private insurance on a commercial vehicle.

The whole situation in Ireland needs a review.
To use Paschal's turn of phrase it's "bonkers" to tell a tradesman paying €330 tax on his van that he can't use it to leave his lawn mower in for a service without paying hundreds more in motor tax.

Isambard

you have that the wrong way around. The tradesman is getting a perk having cheap tax, and the condition is he can have it only if his vehicle is used for commercial purposes only.

elperello

Isambard wrote: »

you have that the wrong way around. The tradesman is getting a perk having cheap tax, and the condition is he can have it only if his vehicle is used for commercial purposes only.

€330 for a rattly Berlingo that's some perk.
The boss is paying less than that for his BMW.

Del2005

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

It might be illegal but its a very minor rule to break in most people eyes. How many thousands of people regularly did 3 months on 3 months off with tax when you could declare a car "off the road" retrospectively (oh how I miss them days) and never did I ever hear someone get in trouble over it.

It's fraud of around €2k per annum so it's not a minor rule. They fixed the problem of people committing the other fraud by declaring vehicles off the road before the tax expires, if people keep abusing commercial tax they will remove it.

Del2005

elperello wrote: »

€330 for a rattly Berlingo that's some perk.
The boss is paying less than that for his BMW.

Nothing stopping them from buying an estate or small SUV for cheap tax and usually a better driving experience.

BillyBobBS

Farcical situation really. All this nonsense can be avoided by adding more tax to diesel and petrol. The more you drive the more you pay, Get rid of the stone age system we have in place and reduce the number of pen pusher public servants in the tax offices.

nilescraneo

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

But as things stand the only type of insurance you can get on a commercial is commercial insurance so even if your use is fully private, even if you tax it privately you still have to get a commercial policy as its a commercial vehicle.



It might be illegal but its a very minor rule to break in most people eyes. How many thousands of people regularly did 3 months on 3 months off with tax when you could declare a car "off the road" retrospectively (oh how I miss them days) and never did I ever hear someone get in trouble over it.

Fraud of 2k is fraud, none of your "minor rule" breaks can rationalise that fact. You'd know you were a landlord alright.

elperello

Del2005 wrote: »

Nothing stopping them from buying an estate or small SUV for cheap tax and usually a better driving experience.

Nothing except they need a van for work.
If they are married they are most like likely paying tax for a car as well anyway for the OH.

Del2005

elperello wrote: »

Nothing except they need a van for work.
If they are married they are most like likely paying tax for a car as well anyway for the OH.

What can you put into Berlingo that won't fit into an estate or small SUV with the back seats down? Well if they buy a cheap tax car they'll be saving on having a van and car.

nilescraneo

nilescraneo wrote: »

Fraud of 2k is fraud, none of your "minor rule" breaks can rationalise that fact. You'd know you were a landlord alright.

A landlord?
Don't think so, an aspiring landlord iirc.

frozenfrozen

is it actually cheaper to be dodgy with commercial tax though in reality? when commercial insurance is more expensive, and tolls are way more expensive?

All the cameramen I know drive discoveries on private tax and private insurance with business use addon

they have all done the maths and realised it's way cheaper to have it as a private car for them.

elperello

Del2005 wrote: »

What can you put into Berlingo that won't fit into an estate or small SUV with the back seats down? Well if they buy a cheap tax car they'll be saving on having a van and car.

Yes an estate/SUV could work for some but they do have drawbacks.
You can't shelve out an estate.
All your tools/equipment are visible to theives.
They are more expensive to buy.
In order to use as family car you would need to lug heavy gear out every night.
Child seats would need to be refitted on a daily basis.

I'm sure others could add to the list but you get my drift. I'm not dismissing your suggestion but I don't think it would suit most.

elperello

frozenfrozen wrote: »

is it actually cheaper to be dodgy with commercial tax though in reality? when commercial insurance is more expensive, and tolls are way more expensive?

All the cameramen I know drive discoveries on private tax and private insurance with business use addon

they have all done the maths and realised it's way cheaper to have it as a private car for them.

A good point.
It's a case of horses for courses.
The test is twice the price too and annual.

frozenfrozen

frozenfrozen wrote: »

is it actually cheaper to be dodgy with commercial tax though in reality? when commercial insurance is more expensive, and tolls are way more expensive?

All the cameramen I know drive discoveries on private tax and private insurance with business use addon

they have all done the maths and realised it's way cheaper to have it as a private car for them.

It will of course vary from person to person but commercial insurance is not necessary very expensive, like anything its depends on the person. Many are paying similar money for commercial insurance as they would for private car insurance.

Tolls will depend on the person, some people very rarely go through tolls and you will also get a hell of a lot of tolls for the difference between commercial tax and private tax of 1500+ on many commercial jeeps. This is especially the case of people who have a jeep as second car for bigger stuff, pulling a trailer etc and spends a lot of its time sitting around.

As for the camera men, they must not be VAT registered as anyone who is actually buying one for mainly business use and is VAT registered can save a massive amount of money buying a commercial. Then they also have the ongoing saving of claiming VAT back on diesel etc also.

elperello wrote: »

Yes an estate/SUV could work for some but they do have drawbacks.
You can't shelve out an estate.
All your tools/equipment are visible to theives.
They are more expensive to buy.
In order to use as family car you would need to lug heavy gear out every night.
Child seats would need to be refitted on a daily basis.

I'm sure others could add to the list but you get my drift. I'm not dismissing your suggestion but I don't think it would suit most.

You also can't reclaim VAT on purchase.

frozenfrozen

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

As for the camera men, they must not be VAT registered as anyone who is actually buying one for mainly business use and is VAT registered can save a massive amount of money buying a commercial. Then they also have the ongoing saving of claiming VAT back on diesel etc also.

I don't know their exact situations but they would be vat registered, these are lads who are out every single day of the year

I don't think it's as straight forward as buying a commercial vehicle exvat and saving thousands, they probably can write off a % of personal loans and running costs of their personal vehicle. But you could never really know that about one of them unless you were their accountant. All I know is I asked why none of them had commercial tax and they explained to me that the tolls would wipe them out

dil999

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

It will of course vary from person to person but commercial insurance is not necessary very expensive, like anything its depends on the person. Many are paying similar money for commercial insurance as they would for private car insurance.

Tolls will depend on the person, some people very rarely go through tolls and you will also get a hell of a lot of tolls for the difference between commercial tax and private tax of 1500+ on many commercial jeeps. This is especially the case of people who have a jeep as second car for bigger stuff, pulling a trailer etc and spends a lot of its time sitting around.

As for the camera men, they must not be VAT registered as anyone who is actually buying one for mainly business use and is VAT registered can save a massive amount of money buying a commercial. Then they also have the ongoing saving of claiming VAT back on diesel etc also.

You also can't reclaim VAT on purchase.

The problem with commercial vehicles is they are generally not as comfortable as a car to drive. If you are using a vehicle for both work and private, you are definitely better off with a regular car. While you can't claim the full VAT on the purchase, you can claim some if your business mileage is sufficient.

When people talk about commercial insurance wrt to a SUV type van, surely the insurance depends what the vehicle is being used for. I have a private car I use for business, I have class 2 insurance, this covers me for driving to customers sites, carrying equipment etc. If I wanted to carry goods for delivery I would need class 3. What is the difference re a van?

dil999

dil999 wrote: »

The problem with commercial vehicles is they are generally not as comfortable as a car to drive..................

When people talk about commercial insurance wrt to a SUV type van.............

Surely SUVs are as comfortable as cars. qashqai etc are all very comfy, great seating position. Handling not as good as cars admittedly.

dil999

Augeo wrote: »

Surely SUVs are as comfortable as cars. qashqai etc are all very comfy, great seating position. Handling not as good as cars admittedly.

Not very comfortable for the passengers in the back if there are no back seats. Generally the ones sold as commercial vehicles are the entry level spec. Whether seating position is good or bad is subjective.

frozenfrozen

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I don't know their exact situations but they would be vat registered, these are lads who are out every single day of the year

I don't think it's as straight forward as buying a commercial vehicle exvat and saving thousands, they probably can write off a % of personal loans and running costs of their personal vehicle. But you could never really know that about one of them unless you were their accountant. All I know is I asked why none of them had commercial tax and they explained to me that the tolls would wipe them out

There is no way they are VAT registered if they are buying a private Land rover over a 5 seat commercial one or else they are having you on. How many times would you have to go through the toll paying 1.50 extra to make back the roughly 15k difference in purchase price between a commercial discovery and a private one?

dil999 wrote: »

The problem with commercial vehicles is they are generally not as comfortable as a car to drive. If you are using a vehicle for both work and private, you are definitely better off with a regular car. While you can't claim the full VAT on the purchase, you can claim some if your business mileage is sufficient.

Plenty of them will be as comfortable as a car or even more comfortable. A Touraeg, Land rover, landcuriser etc are very comfortable places to be. They are also much better for dealing with kids in seats as the much higher seats makes putting a baby seat in and out far easier especially for someone with a bad back etc. This goes even for crew-cabs etc which are comfortable imo and the high driving and seating position can be very helpful.

Not many nicer places to be than this for instance: https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/volkswagen/touareg/used-2018-181-volkswagen-touareg-5-se-westmeath-fpa-1177041271302830673

dil999

dil999 wrote: »

Not very comfortable for the passengers in the back if there are no back seats.............

Ah ffs will ya stop.

dil999

Augeo wrote: »

Ah ffs will ya stop.

Comfortable was the wrong word. Practical ( from a general private usage point of view) was really what I meant.

I can see your point.
The 5 seat commercially taxed ones are of course not to be used for any private use so you are completely correct

frozenfrozen

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

There is no way they are VAT registered if they are buying a private Land rover over a 5 seat commercial one or else they are having you on. How many times would you have to go through the toll paying 1.50 extra to make back the roughly 15k difference in purchase price between a commercial discovery and a private one?

I only brought it up with them because I looked at the disc in one of their windows and asked and they all said they were on private tax.

Maybe there's another reason? Like what I alluded to with them being able to do something with their accounts even when it's a private vehicle? They said the tolls alone were worth it.

I can't see how they wouldn't be VAT registered, the cut-off is 36k or something is it not? these guys would all be on way more than that

Maybe cameramen get quoted really high commercial insurance and so have to go with private with class 3 or whatever?

I don't know anything more than what I've said so there could be a lot more to it.

I suppose they could be going through lots of tolls a day so it could add up?

If they are VAT registered as in with a Ltd company they'd have to pay significant BIK on a company owned crewcab unless they were doing lots of business miles.

If they aren't doing lots of business miles but still do some they can claim mileage.

If paying 20/30% BIK per annum on the new price of a thing the VAT savings aren't worth talking about really in comparison. Save €12/15k in VAT on purchase but pay tax on a notional benefit of €18k/annum.

The above isn't all encompassing of course, no doubt we'll be told shortly that most crewcab drivers are like farmers, get the VAT back but no BIK applicable etc etc etc

dil999

Augeo wrote: »

If they are VAT registered as in with a Ltd company they'd have to pay significant BIK on a company owned crewcab unless they were doing lots of business miles.

If they aren't doing lots of business miles but still do some they can claim mileage.

If paying 20/30% BIK per annum on the new price of a thing the VAT savings aren't worth talking about really in comparison. Save €12/15k in VAT on purchase but pay tax on a notional benefit of €18k/annum.

The above isn't all encompassing of course, no doubt we'll be told shortly that most crewcab drivers are like farmers, get the VAT back but no BIK applicable etc etc etc

Actually you raise a very good point. If you are an employee of a business, and you drive a business supplied van/SUV for work. If you use that van for any private usage, you are potentially liable for BIK.

With regard to VAT. A business will generally buy the vehicle they need for a particular purpose, so a repair technician might drive a small car derived van, but the sales guy will drive an executive car. The VAT savings would be a secondary concern.

dil999

dil999 wrote: »

Actually you raise a very good point. If you are an employee of a business, and you drive a business supplied van/SUV for work. If you use that van for any private usage, you are potentially liable for BIK.

The BIK on a 2 seat van or SUV is only 5%. It's higher alright for a 5 seat commercial but as Augeo pointed out (in a p*ss takey way) a lot of people buying these are sole traders like tradesmen and farmers etc (as they double as family cars) so BIK isn't applicable and this is actually a lot of people not a small the small number he is claiming. Also from from my experience a lot of company vehicles are down as "pool cars" to avoid BIK but are not even related to a pool car.

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

..............Also from from my experience a lot of company vehicles are down as "pool cars" to avoid BIK but are not even related to a pool car.

What is your experience on this?

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

What is your experience on this?

Knowing of plenty of people doing it.

elperello

What would be the BIK on this?

https://www.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/citroen-c3-plurial-classic/16964290

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer

Hendrix Gorgeous Windjammer wrote: »

Knowing of plenty of people doing it.

I'm consistently amazed at how folk reveal their tax dodging affairs to you

The car pool one has interesting criteria that makes it difficult to "take advantage" of unless you are really thick and lining up the ammunition audit wise........... A car-pool is where the car is available and used by more than one employee. The car must not be kept overnight at or near the home of any of your employees.

So you need at least two people working for the company and a premises where it's claimed the car is kept overnight that isn't the home of any of the users.

How many folk do you know who actually claim the car is pooled to avoid paying BIK when ".......not even related to a pool car"?