RTB Case went in my favor - Is it worth to follow up now?

Hi,

I had an RTB adjudication in my favor a few weeks back (finally) in regards a tenant who overheld and owed rent.

The documents were sent out to his new house I am told showing what he owes and to move out etc.

What happens now? Does he get chased by the RTB for the money owed (5K ish) or do I need to chase him up?

Any idea on if this doesnt get paid is court an option, and is it worth it. House was given back eventually and didnt need any work done at all bar re-painting.

theteal

The RTB don't chase anybody.

Iirc you need to got to court to get the sheriff to seek recompense. It'll all come down to cost effectiveness to you as to how you proceed. This is where you might have heard of landlords paying overholding tenants to move out. The system is very broken.

Cuddlesworth

You need to get a solicitor.

I love Sean nos

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

The documents were sent out to his new house I am told showing what he owes and to move out etc.

Just curious, do you get furnished with proof of the above? Copies of the documents, proof of postage, etc.

If not, the tenant could drag the following process out by claiming non-receipt.

Ms Doubtfire1

The RTB just put you in the right. you now have to get a sheriff to follow up.

Cuddlesworth

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

The RTB just put you in the right. you now have to get a sheriff to follow up.

Nope, the RTB decision is not legally binding. You have to take your RTB order to a actual court, who can then order enforcement.

I love Sean nos

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Just curious, do you get furnished with proof of the above? Copies of the documents, proof of postage, etc.

If not, the tenant could drag the following process out by claiming non-receipt.

The RTB will not give me a copy of the letter sent as is has the tenants new address on it, which I did not have. No idea how they got it mind you.

The will only verify that it was delivered to his new address via registered post.

I think all other documents had been sent to the house in question, the tenant was not at the hearing and there was lost of post inside the house when he posted me back the keys.

Cuddlesworth

I think 5k is worth chasing btw, pretty sure you can claim costs as well when taking him to Court.

Ms Doubtfire1

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

The RTB just put you in the right. you now have to get a sheriff to follow up.

Thanks. Thought that myself.

Do the costs of recovery if that is what it comes to come from me, or him?

Cuddlesworth

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Thanks. Thought that myself.

Do the costs of recovery if that is what it comes to come from me, or him?

You can to go to the District court with the RTB order for enforcement. I'm not a solicitor and its been a long time since anybody I know has gotten to that stage, but usually a solictors letter and summons for a court date leads to a settlement for a person who is employed.

I love Sean nos

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You can to go to the District court with the RTB order for enforcement. I'm not a solicitor and its been a long time since anybody I know has gotten to that stage, but usually a solictors letter and summons for a court date leads to a settlement for a person who is employed.

That's the big decider here OP; ability to pay. Is the offender employed? If he's not, you'll spend more money on enforcement via the court and all you'll get back is €5 a week for the next 23 years, assuming that he doesn't miss any payments.

Cuddlesworth

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I think 5k is worth chasing btw, pretty sure you can claim costs as well when taking him to Court.

Well, after he gets his 1K deposit back and then I have to refund him for purchases made it will likely be 3.4K

Just dont want to end up fighting with someone and it costing me more money, the house is returned and was in good nick, but I still wish to get my money owed back.

Graham

The RTB have a FAQ on the subject of enforcement of determination:

https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/enforcement-of-orders/faqs

TheChizler

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Well, after he gets his 1K deposit back and then I have to refund him for purchases made it will likely be 3.4K

Just dont want to end up fighting with someone and it costing me more money, the house is returned and was in good nick, but I still wish to get my money owed back.

He owes you 5 k but you have to return the deposit and reimburse him first? Why doesn't he just owe you the net balance?

Cuddlesworth

TheChizler wrote: »

He owes you 5 k but you have to return the deposit and reimburse him first? Why doesn't he just owe you the net balance?

Makes no sense to me too why you would hand him a penny if the net balance is him owing you.

TheChizler

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Makes no sense to me too why you would hand him a penny if the net balance is him owing you.

I'm presuming it's something like deposit can only be used for damage or unpaid rent, and overholding doesn't technically count as unpaid rent as it wasn't an agreed term? Would still owe payment for the overhead period but as compensation, separate from the deposit situation.

Speculating here, please correct me.

Cuddlesworth

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Makes no sense to me too why you would hand him a penny if the net balance is him owing you.

It was just the way the report was phrased. It listed my financial part first, then in last article on report it said I had to return deposit and pay for items which tenant bought with receipts.

TheChizler

TheChizler wrote: »

I'm presuming it's something like deposit can only be used for damage or unpaid rent, and overholding doesn't technically count as unpaid rent as it wasn't an agreed term? Would still owe payment for the overhead period but as compensation, separate from the deposit situation.

Speculating here, please correct me.

I think you are correct, a deposit is not rent and can only be held for monies owed.

I imagine a quid pro quo will be done, reduce his dept in lieu and all that

There isn't chance in hell I'd return a cent of the deposit, not in a million years. It's likely the only money you are going to see towards the costs.

I have a feeling you must be interpreting the RTB wrong also, the deposit is just for this type of thing.

GGTrek

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Makes no sense to me too why you would hand him a penny if the net balance is him owing you.

It was just the way the report was phrased. It listed my financial part first, then in last article on report it said I had to return deposit and pay for items which tenant bought with receipts.

I do not know why some adjudicators cannot show the net value like some orders coming from tribunal, for example this one where the calculation of the net is made in the order itself: https://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/determination-orders/tr0517-002359-dr0317-33007-order.pdf?sfvrsn=0 
This is probably similar to the determination order you received (no netting calculation performed): https://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/determination-orders/tr0417-002293-order.pdf?sfvrsn=0 In this case for example let's consider just point 3 (tenant owes 6,500 euros in rent arrears to the landlord) and point 5 (landlord owes 1,300 euros to the tenant). Let's not consider point 4 (which is the rent to be paid for the possible overholding period after the termination date set by the tribunal). This means that the tenant owes the landlord 6,500 - 1,300 = 5,200 euros in rent arrears that have not been covered by the deposit. It is for this sum that the landlord should chase the tenant in circuit court (not district court as specified in some post).

Having said this, I had an RTB case where two joint tenants owed me around 1k after discounting the deposit, it was not even worth chasing, since one of the two had run away from Ireland and the other one was in a really low paid job. That is why it is fundamental that when you collect the references you receive their work contract/payslip with their employer and their PPS number. In this way you will be able to evaluate if the debt is worth chasing. I would suggest the OP to read the following: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/personal_finance/debt/enforcement_of_judgments.html

The most likely outcome for a tenant with no easy to identify assets (car, home, ...) is an instalment order based on the tenant's salary size. That is why it is fundamental that only tenants with decent income are considered at referencing stage. If the OP tenant is on social welfare or on a very low salary, at the moment it is not worth chasing. However if the Civil Debt (Procedures) Act 2015 is finally commenced, depending on judge attitude, even social welfare and low salaried tenants could be chased and attachment of earnings requested.

Claw Hammer

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You can to go to the District court with the RTB order for enforcement. I'm not a solicitor and its been a long time since anybody I know has gotten to that stage, but usually a solictors letter and summons for a court date leads to a settlement for a person who is employed.

It is the Circuit Court for enforcement, not the District Court.

Alejandra Petite Okra

Alejandra Petite Okra wrote: »

There isn't chance in hell I'd return a cent of the deposit, not in a million years. It's likely the only money you are going to see towards the costs.

I have a feeling you must be interpreting the RTB wrong also, the deposit is just for this type of thing.

Hi,

No it just lays it out in a who owes what way, i assume he must pay me first before deposit is given back mind you.

Claw Hammer

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi,

No it just lays it out in a who owes what way, i assume he must pay me first before deposit is given back mind you.

You will get a judgement for the nett amount.

DREDDLOCKED

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi,

I had an RTB adjudication in my favor a few weeks back (finally) in regards a tenant who overheld and owed rent.

The documents were sent out to his new house I am told showing what he owes and to move out etc.

What happens now? Does he get chased by the RTB for the money owed (5K ish) or do I need to chase him up?

Any idea on if this doesnt get paid is court an option, and is it worth it. House was given back eventually and didnt need any work done at all bar re-painting.

Where is your house based?????

DREDDLOCKED

DREDDLOCKED wrote: »

Where is your house based?????

Hi,

Limerick. Where is yours as this sounds similar/very same

DREDDLOCKED

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi,

Limerick. Where is yours as this sounds similar/very same

Mine is in the Midlands.
You do sound like my landlord though, I looked at your previous posts. Do you not think that maybe your tenant was good and you screwed him over?

DREDDLOCKED

DREDDLOCKED wrote: »

Mine is in the Midlands.
You do sound like my landlord though, I looked at your previous posts. Do you not think that maybe your tenant was good and you screwed him over?

I have said before he was.

An Bradán Feasa

DREDDLOCKED wrote: »

Mine is in the Midlands.
You do sound like my landlord though, I looked at your previous posts. Do you not think that maybe your tenant was good and you screwed him over?

Good tenants don't leave their landlords out of pocket.

An Bradán Feasa

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

Good tenants don't leave their landlords out of pocket.

Well said

DrPhilG

DREDDLOCKED wrote: »

Mine is in the Midlands.
You do sound like my landlord though

Glad I'm not the only one who saw 2 threads and thought "hmmmm"

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057798441

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057799358

Hitman3000

So basically you're out of pocket to the tune of 600 euro. You owe tenant 4.4k and he owes you 5k. The grief you're going to go through to get 600 euro is it worth it?

Hitman3000

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So basically you're out of pocket to the tune of 600 euro. You owe tenant 4.4k and he owes you 5k. The grief you're going to go through to get 600 euro is it worth it?

Hi,

No I think it will be about 3k in total. I owe tenant probably around 1.5k, he owes closes to 5k

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Glad I'm not the only one who saw 2 threads and thought "hmmmm"

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057798441

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057799358

Hi,
Yes I thought it was my tenant also, but different places plus my guy moved out early in the year, it just took ages for RTB case to go through. But sounds of other one it was done from June till present

Hi again.

I received notification today that RTB determination order was sent out to tenant.

What happens now, I am told these are legally binding but have seen here that may not be the case.
Do I possibly need to go to court now

Baby01032012

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi again.

I received notification today that RTB determination order was sent out to tenant.

What happens now, I am told these are legally binding but have seen here that may not be the case.
Do I possibly need to go to court now

Adjudication finding or determination order. DO follows adjudication finding by approx. 2 weeks well tenant would have had 2 weeks to appeal. If they don't then a DO issues. What was in the DO or adjudication order. It should state what and when it is to be paid etc. RTB are not taking too many cases to the courts so it may fall to you to take a case to the High Court. Follow up with the RTB to find if they plan to take any further action.

Baby01032012

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Adjudication finding or determination order. DO follows adjudication finding by approx. 2 weeks well tenant would have had 2 weeks to appeal. If they don't then a DO issues. What was in the DO or adjudication order. It should state what and when it is to be paid etc. RTB are not taking too many cases to the courts so it may fall to you to take a case to the High Court. Follow up with the RTB to find if they plan to take any further action.

Hi,

It is for rent arrears and overholding.
It says seven days to move out , which was done already even before the hearing.
It says 28 days to pay rent back.

Baby01032012

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi,

It is for rent arrears and overholding.
It says seven days to move out , which was done already even before the hearing.
It says 28 days to pay rent back.

The thing I hate is it probably says you have to pay back the deposit on them leaving which RTB will look for wether they pay the rent arrears or not.

If you get back rent great. If not thank your lucky stars they are out. RTB won't pursue rent arrears through the courts.

You are in a better position than me. I can't get them out despite guards going in for criminal activity and RTB DO ignored.

Baby01032012

Baby01032012 wrote: »

The thing I hate is it probably says you have to pay back the deposit on them leaving which RTB will look for wether they pay the rent arrears or not.

If you get back rent great. If not thank your lucky stars they are out. RTB won't pursue rent arrears through the courts.

You are in a better position than me. I can't get them out despite guards going in for criminal activity and RTB DO ignored.

Yes it does. It says I need to do this upon return of house
I was lucky in one sense as house was given back in great nick, only needed two rooms repainted. House was re rented in two weeks to a nice family

Baby01032012

Baby01032012 wrote: »

The thing I hate is it probably says you have to pay back the deposit on them leaving which RTB will look for wether they pay the rent arrears or not.

If you get back rent great. If not thank your lucky stars they are out. RTB won't pursue rent arrears through the courts.

You are in a better position than me. I can't get them out despite guards going in for criminal activity and RTB DO ignored.

If o don't give back the deposit mind you, does that mean the order becomes null and void ?

Baby01032012

Well I think RTB could prosecute you for not abiding by the DO. Unlikely though as I said they won't prosecute the tenant. I know what I'd be doing. However it would be against the forum rules to suggest that. The RTB is a complete waste. Landlords are bound to go through it but the RTB have no power or money to pursue if tenants choose to ignore their orders.

Baby01032012

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Well I think RTB could prosecute you for not abiding by the DO. Unlikely though as I said they won't prosecute the tenant. I know what I'd be doing. However it would be against the forum rules to suggest that. The RTB is a complete waste. Landlords are bound to go through it but the RTB have no power or money to pursue if tenants choose to ignore their orders.

My thought would be that if neither followed through with terms set out the process might be cancelled.

murphaph

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I think 5k is worth chasing btw, pretty sure you can claim costs as well when taking him to Court.

Total waste of time and money.

You can claim costs but you don't give your barrister or solicitor an IOU at the end of proceedings. You pay them and hope the defendant pays you...which he probably won't if he over held in the first place.

Seriously...been there done that (considerably larger sum). I wish the whole thing had only cost 5k. We even got a judgement mortgage on his property but all he has to do is not sell it or give his half to his wife and it's worthless.

Proceed as far as possible without engaging anybody that will charge you OP if you want to feel like you've done something.

System badly broken.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

Total waste of time and money.

You can claim costs but you don't give your barrister or solicitor an IOU at the end of proceedings. You pay them and hope the defendant pays you...which he probably won't if he over held in the first place.

Seriously...been there done that (considerably larger sum). I wish the whole thing had only cost 5k. We even got a judgement mortgage on his property but all he has to do is not sell it or give his half to his wife and it's worthless.

Proceed as far as possible without engaging anybody that will charge you OP if you want to feel like you've done something.

System badly broken.

I suppose it is a bit skewed.

My only thought on it is I know he now has a house, good paying job etc.
There was no sign at the adjudication hearing or any appeal lodged. The RTB said letters were sent to his new house.

I do wonder is it just not worth it at all. The RTB said they can enforce it if I ask.

murphaph

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I suppose it is a bit skewed.

My only thought on it is I know he now has a house, good paying job etc.
There was no sign at the adjudication hearing or any appeal lodged. The RTB said letters were sent to his new house.

I do wonder is it just not worth it at all. The RTB said they can enforce it if I ask.

My case was commercial so we had no RTB involvement. If they will enforce something and it doesn't cost you anything then go for it but my strong advice us to stop before spending any money on legal eagles.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

My case was commercial so we had no RTB involvement. If they will enforce something and it doesn't cost you anything then go for it but my strong advice us to stop before spending any money on legal eagles.

I think it would be different, no?

The RTB letter said they have diverted significant resource to court appearances.
My friend who works Legal had said if i give back the deposit I still need to wait 21 days to get my full rent back, but if I dont I might void the whole thing as " neither parties to the order are in compliance" so not sure. I dont want to be EVEN MORE out of pocket by trying to comply and then have to chase more money again.

murphaph

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I think it would be different, no?

The RTB letter said they have diverted significant resource to court appearances.
My friend who works Legal had said if i give back the deposit I still need to wait 21 days to get my full rent back, but if I dont I might void the whole thing as " neither parties to the order are in compliance" so not sure. I dont want to be EVEN MORE out of pocket by trying to comply and then have to chase more money again.

Then you have a straight gamble to make or not. The RTB have to go through the courts too. Even if they get a judgement against the character (as we did in the district court-the amount was over the limit for the circuit court) you still have to enforce it. If the guy has property you can get a judgement mortgage placed on it but like I said even this is useless if he's prepared to sit it out for (I believe) 12 years without selling at which point the judgement mortgage expires. He can also simply gift his share to his wife.

Unless the guy has real property beyond a family
home I simply wouldn't bother if it was me. I'd take an entirely different path if it ever happened again with our small commercial units. With residential I only have the one property in Ireland and have thus far been lucky.

Edit: if he has no real property just forget it. The sheriff would make an appointment and turn up and find nothing of value and that would be the end of the matter. Our guy waited until the Sheriff sent him the letter and at that point cleared his stock out and did a runner.

Claw Hammer

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I think it would be different, no?

The RTB letter said they have diverted significant resource to court appearances.
My friend who works Legal had said if i give back the deposit I still need to wait 21 days to get my full rent back, but if I dont I might void the whole thing as " neither parties to the order are in compliance" so not sure. I dont want to be EVEN MORE out of pocket by trying to comply and then have to chase more money again.

Your friend in Legal Aid is talking nonsense. You do not have to pay back a deposit where you are owed rent. The order is to prevent you taking the rent from the tenant and then witholding the deposit. The tenant pays the net amount, end of story.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Your friend in Legal Aid is talking nonsense. You do not have to pay back a deposit where you are owed rent. The order is to prevent you taking the rent from the tenant and then witholding the deposit. The tenant pays the net amount, end of story.

I did say at the beginning he was not an expert in property. he had only advised from other legal points that if neither party to an agreement comply.

But the DO i received says it in black and white, landlord MUST return deposit to tenant on return of property less any monies owed for repair ( not the actual wording, but money for what a deposit is meant for)

The order says he has 28 days to return the rent owed, but i have to hand back the deposit ASAP

mugsymugsy

When you get your money - give them the deposit back. Seriously don't lose even further money on this.

mugsymugsy

mugsymugsy wrote: »

When you get your money - give them the deposit back. Seriously don't lose even further money on this.

Ha, I agree with this, however this is not what the Order says to do!!

This is the conundrum I find myself in, if I comply with the order I should give his deposit back, today actually, but he has another 21 days to reply about the rent. he actually doesnt have to give it all back then, but enter into agreement on how to give it back.
I could end up giving back 850 today and then get 1 euro a week for 4000 weeks!!!!!

murphaph

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Ha, I agree with this, however this is not what the Order says to do!!

This is the conundrum I find myself in, if I comply with the order I should give his deposit back, today actually, but he has another 21 days to reply about the rent. he actually doesnt have to give it all back then, but enter into agreement on how to give it back.
I could end up giving back 850 today and then get 1 euro a week for 4000 weeks!!!!!

If I was in your shoes I would definitely absolutely positively not return the deposit. It's the very definition of throwing good money after bad IMO but it's your call.