Parking fine in housing estate

benny79

Hi Folks,

Last Friday I was doing my first aid refresher course with a company in Templeogue. Its pay & display outside the place as there's a few shops etc there so we always park in the housing estate.
So I parked outside a house not obstructing anybody just past a left hand turn (no yellow lines) and I was a good bit back from the junction plus there was other cars around me etc.
On my return I noticed I had a parking ticket and was the only one as well! extremely peed off I rang them, they told me I was parked across from a continuous white line and its illegal!

I had to go back and check and I was! but dont see why its there! As you drive up the road its broken white lines, then when you pass the turn left, its a continuous white line. Same road (its actually a wide road for a housing estate) She actually got a bit smart saying there the rules of the road, you can't park on curbs or across from a continuous white lines etc (Dublin city council) I asked why the others werent fined? she said she couldn't comment on others! I suspect they were residents but I checked their cars and there was no permits etc in the windows. Its a bit of a posh estate and big houses etc suppose it is Templeogue ..

So I pointed out yes it is illegal to park on the curb yet every house in Drimnagh (where Im from), Crumlin, Ballyfermot etc do and why arent they fined etc because there would be uproar! I also told her there was no signs or anything up that's its a quiet estate she got smart again and said there doesn't have to be you should know the rules of the road and appeal if I have a problem the conversation got a big heated to say the least not helped by her been smart!

So the fine is €40 not loads but its more the point as I think its a pure scam!

1. What happens if I dont pay?

2. Is there any point in appealing? You have to appeal in writing to a PO box number, but will they just ignore it? As it is Dublin city Council after all! I am willing to go to court if people think I have a case..

Its just so ridiculous! I am still fuming 4 days later.. Especially when I taught I was doing the right thing.. Like you wouldnt park outside the shops for the whole day! as which the course was... If I paid for parking in town etc and it ran out fair enough or got clamped etc but this is a fcuking housing estate and I wasn't obstructing anything! plus its a quiet estate not a main turret fair!

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Do you have a picture?

ohnonotgmail

Brooklynn Green Bee wrote: »

Do you have a picture?

the OP has admitted that they were parked across from a continuous white line. how would a picture help?

delta_bravo

Op just to let you know it would be South Dublin County Council you'd be appealing to if it happened where I think it did. Is this it?

benny79

delta_bravo wrote: »

Op just to let you know it would be South Dublin County Council you'd be appealing to if it happened where I think it did. Is this it?

Yes I was were that sliver car is on the left! Fortfield park - Templeogue.

I didnt even notice the continuous white line as you can even see from the picture there is other vehicles parked there. What is even the point of it..

beauf

Have to say I'm not familiar with this rule. But there it is...

Prohibitions on Parking
36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5, a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose referred to in this article

(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—

( d ) on a section of roadway with less than 3 traffic lanes and where traffic sign number RRM 001 [continuous white line] has been provided;

benny79

beauf wrote: »

Have to say I'm not familiar with this rule. But there it is...

Either am I! It has that on the fine.. Like not everyone knows every single rule of the road!

beauf

Never seen road markings like those chevrons on a road that narrow before either.

eamonnq

benny79 wrote: »

Yes I was were that sliver car is on the left! Fortfield park - Templeogue.

In front of that gate ?

benny79

Do you reckon I have a case? like things like this really get to me! its like a trap.. I live in the country and commute to work everyday the speed van is always on the main road hidden in different spots not accident black spots which there supposed to be! Which really pisses me off as they are trying to get as many as possible defeats the purpose and plus the fact they dropped the speed limit on the road!

Hence why things like this parking fine gets to me even though it shouldn't but we have to take a stand for ourselves as to many just pay and dont complain in this country!

irelandrover

What exactly are you going to appeal? You got caught breaking a rule of the road, ignorance of the rule is no defense.

ohnonotgmail

benny79 wrote: »

Do you reckon I have a case? like things like this really get to me! its like a trap.. I live in the country and commute to work everyday the speed van is always on the main road hidden in different spots not accident black spots which there supposed to be! Which really pisses me off as they are trying to get as many as possible defeats the purpose and plus the fact they dropped the speed limit on the road!

Hence why things like this parking fine gets to me even though it shouldn't but we have to take a stand for ourselves as to many just pay and dont complain in this country!

appeal on what grounds?

benny79

eamonnq wrote: »

In front of that gate ?

No obviously not! that car isn't blocking the gate its the angle of the picture plus it is actually a longer distance to the junction. it looks much smaller in the picture. I was roughly in the same spot as the sliver car

Wildcard7

benny79 wrote: »

Hence why things like this parking fine gets to me even though it shouldn't but we have to take a stand for ourselves as to many just pay and dont complain in this country!

What do you want to take a stand against? You parked illegally, you got caught, bad luck.

The fact that 99% of the time people don't get caught and almost everyone (me included) parks illegally every now and then is not grounds to appeal.

sbsquarepants

I think you're on hiding to nothing OP.

You didn't know the rules, (I didn't know it either, but that doesn't mean it's not a rule) You parked where you shouldn't have and you got caught. Just pay the fine and learn your lesson.

It's a pain in the arse, but it's cut and dried - you parked where you aren't supposed to park. End of!

benny79

irelandrover wrote: »

What exactly are you going to appeal? You got caught breaking a rule of the road, ignorance of the rule is no defense.

So explain to me why the continuous white line is there? especially since its a housing estate
and why I was the only one fined as even in the picture above there is other people parked across from it!

"Please note this is not my picture but similar instance and same location"

ohnonotgmail

benny79 wrote: »

So explain to me why the continuous white line is there? especially since its a housing estate
and why I was the only one fined as even in the picture above there is other people parked across from it!

"Please note this is not my picture but similar instance and same location"

the line is there. you parked across from it. "the line shouldnt be there" is not a ground for appeal. Neither is the fact that you were the only one fined.

Fighting Tao

I don’t think ignorance is an excuse you’d get away with. It is up to motorists be be aware of the laws with regards to a motor vehicle. You admitted yourself that you are in the wrong so why even waste your time stressing about it and appealing it when you’ll have no chance of winning.

benny79

Lads I understand I parked where I shouldnt have! This was after she explained that law to me as I never heard of it before. But thats not the point I trying to make. Most housing estates dont have any white lines in them continuous or not. This one has granted but why? and Why have one side of the junction broken white lines and then the other continuous? Its the same road nothing changes.

So just pay and don't question it? Sure if thats the case the council can go around putting them down everywhere! I was the only car fined even though others were parked across from it.. Should there not be a no parking or clearway sign up? If I lived in that house am I not allowed park outside it?

MOH

I'd guess the line is there to prevent people travelling south east overtaking just before the junction?

beauf

You'd be wasting your time.

I'd be curious why its laid out like that. That said any query to my own LA about odd road markings, or layout, wasn't well received, they seem to take offence that someone would question them.

dudara

benny79 wrote: »

So explain to me why the continuous white line is there? especially since its a housing estate
and why I was the only one fined as even in the picture above there is other people parked across from it!

Maybe other people had been fined, but had already driven away by the time you came back. Who knows, all you can do is deal with your own case unfortunately.

ohnonotgmail

benny79 wrote: »

Lads I understand I parked where I shouldnt have! This was after she explained that law to me as I never heard of it before. But thats not the point I trying to make. Most housing estates dont have any white lines in them continuous or not. This one has granted but why? and Why have one side of the junction broken white lines and then the other continuous? Its the same road nothing changes.

So just pay and don't question it? Sure if thats the case the council can go around putting them down everywhere! I was the only car fined even though others were parked across from it.. Should there not be a no parking or clearway sign up? If I lived in that house am I not allowed park outside it?

a no parking or clearway sign is not required. the same rule would apply to residents.

benny79

I agree hence why I started thread and said what's the point in appealing but if I let it go to court how would the judge view it?

If I did iI would appeal first as not to just ignore it!

ohnonotgmail

benny79 wrote: »

I agree hence why I started thread and said what's the point in appealing but if I let it go to court how would the judge view it?

If I did iI would appeal first as not to just ignore it!

you are thinking of going to court when you know you were in the wrong? madness.

padser

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the line is there. you parked across from it. "the line shouldnt be there" is not a ground for appeal. Neither is the fact that you were the only one fined.

This.

You seem to be making 5 points

1) The line shouldn't be there
2) I was the only person fined
3) The lady on the phone was rude
4) In other similar cases, no one got fined
5) If the council get away with this, they could go painting lines everywhere

Have I captured all of your arguments?

Allow me to deal with them

1) The line is there. Your view that it shouldn't be there is irrelevant.
2) Someone else getting away with it is just not relevant. Annoying - yes, relevant - no.
3) I'm surprised she spoke to you for as long as she did to be honest
4) See 2
5) Correct, the council can decide where to put up lines. You can challenge this by appealing against decisions put up lines - not by illegally parking and then fighting the resulting fine.

While I understand this is annoying - I struggle to see any coherent grievance

Cheshire Cat

I live in an estate that does have continuous white lines. People still park opposite and create dangerous bottlenecks at junctions. The Residents' Association has repeatedly appealed to the offenders, but no luck so far!

elperello

We're spaces available in the pay & display?

seamus

Just because you can't see why there should be lines and chevrons there, doesn't mean they shouldn't be there. Also the behaviour of vehicles a couple of KM away is irrelevant - why does it matter how someone parked their car in Crumlin?

Any road, yes it's illegal to park at a solid white line, parking 101.

That particular road is incredibly busy with schools traffic, there are a number of primary and secondary schools in the area, as well as a bus service that drives through. It's nothing to do with it being "posh" or "a scam". The lines are there to prevent the road becoming completely blocked and impassable due to inconsiderate parking, which was common in the past.

You were caught fair and square, pay the fine.

meep

benny79 wrote: »

Do you reckon I have a case? like things like this really get to me! its like a trap.. I live in the country and commute to work everyday the speed van is always on the main road hidden in different spots not accident black spots which there supposed to be! Which really pisses me off as they are trying to get as many as possible defeats the purpose and plus the fact they dropped the speed limit on the road!

Hence why things like this parking fine gets to me even though it shouldn't but we have to take a stand for ourselves as to many just pay and dont complain in this country!

You're right - I must start complaining more. Especially about the numptys who park wherever they like without any care for other road users...

I'm lucky to be able to walk 15 mins to and from work and am constantly surprised by the amount of idiots parking in the carriageway or on double-yellow lines that casue problems for pedestirans (need to walk around the car onto the carriageway to get by).

And dont get me started about the fools who double park outside their shop of choice, snap on the hazards and 'pop in for less than a minute'. Blocking up the entire carriageway.

As for the speed camera example - surely if you are adhering to the speed limit, there's no issue? Is it a thing that the vans are mandated only to be stationed at accident black spots? I think the fact that you know they are on the road and that they could be anywhere is an excellent indication that someone, somewhere is doing their job properly.

loyatemu

whilst you're wasting your time appealing this, you have a point about inconsistent enforcement of this rule and (in particular) the one about parking on the footpath. Most of us probably know several locations where these rules are routinely ignored and no tickets are ever handed out - it brings the whole system into disrepute and just makes people angry and frustrated (like the OP).

Tigger

loyatemu wrote: »

whilst you're wasting your time appealing this, you have a point about inconsistent enforcement of this rule and (in particular) the one about parking on the footpath. Most of us probably know several locations where these rules are routinely ignored and no tickets are ever handed out - it brings the whole system into disrepute and just makes people angry and frustrated (like the OP).

id say that the locals are fed up with people from the traoning center who park in the estate in order to avoid the pay and display and have convinced a warden to cone by every so often and ticket.

ohnonotgmail

loyatemu wrote: »

whilst you're wasting your time appealing this, you have a point about inconsistent enforcement of this rule and (in particular) the one about parking on the footpath. Most of us probably know several locations where these rules are routinely ignored and no tickets are ever handed out - it brings the whole system into disrepute and just makes people angry and frustrated (like the OP).

the op is frustrated because the rule was inconsistently enforced on them not because it is inconsistently enforced.

cruizer101

Don't think any point in appealing OP at the end of the day you broke a rule. I am also surprised how many here aren't aware of the rule I thought most would know it.

I will say it does seem like bizzare markings, don't see the need for the hatching. Don't recall seeing that broken hatching before not quite sure what it means.

seamus

Tigger wrote: »

id say that the locals are fed up with people from the traoning center who park in the estate in order to avoid the pay and display and have convinced a warden to cone by every so often and ticket.

As I mention above there are a few schools in the area, and people picking kids up are the worst offenders for parking. So wardens are in general quite active around the Fortfield area, and also across the road at Rathdown to catch visitors to Bushy Park.

It helps of course that there are a couple of councillors living in the area, so the enforcement team are more prone to focus on keeping those roads enforced.

benny79

Cheers for all the replies think its just time to suck it up. I might send an appeal in for pig iron but suppose it will be ignored.

The reason I didnt park outside the shops was because its pay and display and I was of the impression its just short term parking for people to just run into the shops Plus the trainers in the training centre always told us to park in the housing estate and there was no spaces it wasn't a money issue as my job would of paid it if I got a receipt.

There was loads of spaces in the housing estate might I add, I wasn't stuck for a space that were ok. I just didn't notice the white line or even know it was a rule considering I was in an housing estate.

Victor

The solid white line is there because of the traffic island. Imagine trying to be a fire appliance or rubbish truck in or out with someone parked near the traffic island.

The traffic island is there to slow people down going around the corner.

benny79 wrote: »

Especially when I taught I was doing the right thing

I hope the "taught" is a spelling error.

SK12

I just got caught there today.

I also did not know this rule. The issue I have is that after some investigation people get caught in this spot extremely regularly. On the opposite side of the road the double yellow lines extend the full length of the white line and for some reason stop short on the far side.

I had no intention of parking illegally and there were other spaces free outside house's etc but I felt this place would affect locals less.

The fact that the warden targets this spot daily angers me because obviously a lot of people are unaware and I can't see any reason for not extending the yellow lines.

I will be appealing my fine in an attempt to draw attention to the spot. If cars parking there cause an obstruction, double yellow lines will deal with it better than fining after the fact.

*also the paid parking was completely full with parents dropping off for school

Fighting Tao

SK12 wrote: »

I just got caught there today.

I also did not know this rule. The issue I have is that after some investigation people get caught in this spot extremely regularly. On the opposite side of the road the double yellow lines extend the full length of the white line and for some reason stop short on the far side.

I had no intention of parking illegally and there were other spaces free outside house's etc but I felt this place would affect locals less.

The fact that the warden targets this spot daily angers me because obviously a lot of people are unaware and I can't see any reason for not extending the yellow lines.

I will be appealing my fine in an attempt to draw attention to the spot. If cars parking there cause an obstruction, double yellow lines will deal with it better than fining after the fact.

*also the paid parking was completely full with parents dropping off for school

Double yellow lines are not required when there is a solid white. Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

SK12

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Double yellow lines are not required when there is a solid white. Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

Where did I say anything about my defence?
Very useful comment though. Much appreciated!

Grassey

SK12 wrote:

I will be appealing my fine in an attempt to draw attention to the spot. If cars parking there cause an obstruction, double yellow lines will deal with it better than fining after the fact.

Double yellow lines are the exact same as a solid white line. This was on the theory test 15 years ago when I did it. You aren't being fined after the fact. There is no need to double up a no park zone warning with both double yellow and a white line. 1 is sufficient warning for drivers. If you ignore it and get caught then tough. It is irrelevant if you intended to park illegally, or if you were not aware of this rule. The onus is on the driver to be aware of the rules. Appealing will be an exercise on futility.

Fighting Tao

SK12 wrote: »

Where did I say anything about my defence?
Very useful comment though. Much appreciated!

Sorry, I presumed you’d write something intelligent on the appeal as putting “because I don’t like it” won’t make the council review their road markings.

SK12

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Sorry, I presumed you’d write something intelligent on the appeal as putting “because I don’t like it” won’t make the council review their road markings.

So you thought that part of an intelligent appeal I would use "Ignorance of the law" as a defence.......very intelligent!

What i did say was "I will be appealing my fine in an attempt to draw attention to the spot."

SK12

Grassey wrote: »

Double yellow lines are the exact same as a solid white line. This was on the theory test 15 years ago when I did it. You aren't being fined after the fact. There is no need to double up a no park zone warning with both double yellow and a white line. 1 is sufficient warning for drivers. If you ignore it and get caught then tough. It is irrelevant if you intended to park illegally, or if you were not aware of this rule. The onus is on the driver to be aware of the rules. Appealing will be an exercise on futility.

My question to them if this was there reply would be, why they feel there was a need to put both on the opposite side of the road?
Why not put the lines there if it is causing confusion?
They have made more than enough money in the past 2 weeks to pay for it, if the local business's and homeowners are anything to go by.

Also if any car is causing an obstruction anywhere, I don't think it should be fined or clamped, it should be removed. That's what i was referring to about being fined after someone had caused an obstruction.

1983ish

You cannot park legally opposite a continuous white line. If there are double yellow lines opposite the continuous white line(or anywhere) a commercial vehicle can park there for 30 mins if they are loading or unloading. One yellow line means parking during the hours shown. Simples I’m a delivery driver and have been to court over this on 3 occasions.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
There are at least 3 parking wardens out there that don’t know what they are trying to enforce

1983ish

1983ish wrote: »

You cannot park legally opposite a continuous white line. If there are double yellow lines opposite the continuous white line(or anywhere) a commercial vehicle can park there for 30 mins if they are loading or unloading. One yellow line means parking during the hours shown. Simples I’m a delivery driver and have been to court over this on 3 occasions.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
There are at least 3 parking wardens out there that don’t know what they are trying to enforce

Sorry to all the traffic wardens out there but the ignorance of what yellow lines actually mean in law is ridiculous

GM228

1983ish wrote: »

You cannot park legally opposite a continuous white line. If there are double yellow lines opposite the continuous white line(or anywhere) a commercial vehicle can park there for 30 mins if they are loading or unloading.

You are correct a vehicle can park on double yellows for 30 minutes when loading/unloading goods, but it applies to any vehicle, not just a commercial vehicle.

However you can't avail of the parking on double yellow lines for loading/unloading when those lines are opposite a continuous white line. There is no exemption for the white line rule, the exemption applies to the double yellows only - the exemption for double yellows can't override the continuous white line rule.

1983ish wrote: »

One yellow line means parking during the hours shown. Simples I’m a delivery driver and have been to court over this on 3 occasions.

One yellow line means parking is not allowed at the times shown. However the double yellow exemption also applies to single yellows for 30 minutes of loading and unloading goods to any vehicle.

1983ish

Sorry not allowed at the times shown for single yellows.
Park on double yellows in a private vehicle at your own risk. Myself and 3 judges would disagree with your opinion. I had to put my commercial vehicle argument across on each occasion in court. I’d say 80% of double yellows in Dublin City centre are opposite a continuous white line

GM228

1983ish wrote: »

Sorry not allowed at the times shown for single yellows.
Park on double yellows in a private vehicle at your own risk. Myself and 3 judges would disagree with your opinion.

It's not just an opinion, it's the law and it's pretty clear - the exemption applies simply to a "vehicle", not a commercial vehicle, a vehicle is defined as any mechanically propelled vehicle and even includes a pedal cycle unless stated otherwise, and it does not state otherwise.

5 (4) A prohibition on the parking of a vehicle imposed by article 36(2) (a) shall not apply to a vehicle parked while goods are being loaded in or on to it or unloaded from it,for a period not exceeding thirty minutes from the commencement of the parking.

1983ish wrote: »

I’d say 80% of double yellows in Dublin City centre are opposite a continuous white line

Then you can only legally do it on 20% of double yellows in Dublin City centre.

1983ish

GM228 wrote: »

It's not just an opinion, it's the law and it's pretty clear - the exemption applies simply to a "vehicle", not a commercial vehicle, a vehicle is defined as any mechanically propelled vehicle and even includes a pedal cycle unless stated otherwise, and it does not state otherwise.

I used that in court myself but as I was told by the judge, that’s from the statute books, ignorance of the bye-laws is no excuse. While it doesn’t mention commercial vehicles in the statute books, most bye-laws mention commercial/goods vehicle tax discs in regards parking, not specificly double yellows it’s a bit of a grey area


Then you can only legally do it on 20% of double yellows in Dublin City centre.

I’ll stick with the judges opinions over an anonymous poster on boardsðŸ˜

benny79

sugarman wrote: »

The point of it is, the 54a runs down that road... whens theres cars parked all along there it has to go up the middle of the road and no other vehicles can pass around it. So when theres on coming traffic, it has nowhere to go and neither do the que of cars (or sometimes another bus) anywhere to go other than wait for one another to reverse back and let it pass.

This happens several times a week and delays the bus 10-15min each time. Incredibly frustrating as a passenger.

Now, imagine if that was an emergency vehicle. A firetruck for example, as its the same size as a bus. Same scenario.

Fair enough. But if you look at the picture posted of the area on page 1 it turns to broken white line boxes just after the continuous white line so its ok for cars to park across from them which would still cause the problem above you mentioned.