Driving offence, No insurance, or Licence, or Tax

greenfieldbush

Hi all.

First off, i am not looking for advice as i would imagine its against the forum rules to seek legal advice on such a situation. What I do want is clarification of the law and perhaps some experiences people have had.

What I describe below, is completely my fault, and Im completely going to take the entire blame for it, but I just want to know, how much trouble I am in when i do take it on the chin. I am being completely genuine here, and am not lying about certain aspects that you may say are bull****.

I borrowed my mothers car without her knowledge. The car was recently purchased in her name several days ago, and it was out of tax. I knew that well, so ITS COMPLETELY MY FAULT.
I do not hold a full car licence, only a permit, that has expired 5 months ago. I genuinely didnt know that. I SHOULD HAVE, but I have completely forgot, since I last drove a car years ago, and have been using a motorbike which I do have a full licence for. THAT is completely my fault.
I also damn well knew that the car was not insured. Im an idiot for even getting behind the wheel. THAT IS ALSO MY FAULT.

I got pulled over today as the car showed up to be without tax. On production of my permit, Garda stated it wasnt valid. I was just as shocked, but okay. He waved the tax issue as my mother did not have the opportunity to purchase it yet, and she is given several days to do so as he explained.
I told him it is my mothers insurance.
He told me to get home ASAP not via motorway, and produce a licence, and insurance within 10 days. Im almost certain the only reason he didnt tow the car was because I had my dog there with me. He also gave me 3 points for not displaying L plates.

Anyhow, here I am.
In order to produce a licence, I need to renew, which means applying for a test, which I need lessons for, which I dont have money for.

And theres nothing that can be, nor will be done about the insurance, as I understand that I am at fault.

So here is my question. I am guaranteed to appear in court as I cannot produce within 10 days. What sort of penalty am I looking at?

I have a clean full motorbike licence,
and until now, a clean permit.
I never had any convictions.
I am fully aware I will have to pay a large fine, and possibly even be disqualified from driving. How long for the above offences?
I have a job that requires a 2 and a half hour commute on public transport, that I commute to on the motorbike - if that anyhow affects your judgement of the penalty outcome of the situation.

To anyone reading this, please refrain from giving me hell. Im having a rough time as is punishing myself for this. My mother was knocked down by an uninsured driver several years previously, and i remember that to this day, but I just made a stupid, stupid mistake by sitting behind the wheel of the car today. All I wanted was to go to the beach to watch the waves, and figured itd be too dangerous to drive a motorbike.

Thank you for reading.

brightspark

From the citizens advice center.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

Failure to have motor insurance or driving without insurance in Ireland is generally punishable by:

A fine of up to €5,000
5 penalty points and
At the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months.
The court may decide that you be disqualified from driving instead of incurring penalty points. In that case, you will be disqualified for 2 years or more for a first offence and 4 years or more in the case of a second offence committed within 3 years of the first.

You need to talk to a solicitor. Driving lessons would have been cheap compared to the expense you are going to face now.

NOBODY should have been driving without a good reason today, the emergency services have enough to do without having incompetent drivers on the road.

You didn't learn from someone else's mistake, hopefully this mistake will cost you enough to make sure you learn the lesson this time.

4ensic15

Go to your local District Court and observe the solicitors dealing with Road Traffic cases. See how the judge deals with them. Approach a solicitor who seems on the ball and tell that solicitor your story. District Judges vary quite a lot and a solicitor who appears frequently in a court will know what the likely reaction will be.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

I feel very sorry for the situation the OP is in. The OP put a lot of time, effort and money into getting his/her motorbike license and I hope they don't lose it. Please don't criticise the OP, he/she already knows that they're in trouble.

whomitconcerns

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

I feel very sorry for the situation the OP is in. The OP put a lot of time, effort and money into getting his/her motorbike license and I hope they don't lose it. Please don't criticise the OP, he/she already knows that they're in trouble.

Erm... He stole a car and drove it without tax, insurance or a licence... And you say don't criticise???

_Brian

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

I feel very sorry for the situation the OP is in. The OP put a lot of time, effort and money into getting his/her motorbike license and I hope they don't lose it. Please don't criticise the OP, he/she already knows that they're in trouble.

Loosing the licence would absolutely be an appropriate outcome here.
As a professional driver who makes every effort to have everything 100% there have to be serious and far reaching consequences for people who intentionally break these laws that are there to protect other drivers.

I’d expect a 3-5 year ban and a €2-4K fine
I’d be disappointed by anything less.

OP should get a good solicitor as advised above.

SteM

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

I feel very sorry for the situation the OP is in. The OP put a lot of time, effort and money into getting his/her motorbike license and I hope they don't lose it. Please don't criticise the OP, he/she already knows that they're in trouble.

The OP ends his post by saying he made a stupid mistake. I spent most of yesterday morning trying to explain to my 5 year old that if he does something on purpose then it's not a mistake. My son was upset because he was caught doing something, not because he had made a mistake. If he wasn't caught he would have done it again. I hope the OP learns from his actions but I can't have much sympathy for him.

lawred2

I made the same stupid decision many moons ago when a student - took a friends' car without his permission and got pulled over. Rightly served 12 months disqualification for driving with insurance. I was lucky that taking without permission was struck off as that would have been a criminal conviction. I was helped by a solicitor who was well known to the judge. I could see that they were on good terms.

Look OP - you've f**ked yourself. You know that already. And for what - to go out uninsured in the worst weather this country has seen in the last 50 years!? Best advice has already been given - get a good solicitor who deals with this type of stuff regularly. They'll make an appeal on your behalf regarding work but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sort of disqualification period.

lawred2

_Brian wrote: »

Loosing the licence would absolutely be an appropriate outcome here.
As a professional driver who makes every effort to have everything 100% there have to be serious and far reaching consequences for people who intentionally break these laws that are there to protect other drivers.

I’d expect a 3-5 year ban and a €2-4K fine
I’d be disappointed by anything less.

OP should get a good solicitor as advised above.

that's very unlikely...

brightspark

Googling reveals that for a first offence most are getting about €350 fine and the five points for first offence (for the no insurance part). But some judges may be harsher.

The unaccompanied driving etc., will hopefully increase the fine.

But I imagine the fines are still going to be insignificant compared to the increase in insurance that the OP will face with those convictions.

The OP should be grateful it was a garda that stopped him, not a tree! Two unfortunate people RIP died yesterday while driving

Most sensible people didn't even travel to work yesterday, never mind borrowing/stealing a car and driving it with no tax, insurance or licence just to watch waves.

raxy

You might be able to get free legal advice from a citizens information office. I went along to the Clondalkin office where they get 2 solicitors who come in once a week in the evening. They see people on a first come basis. They will probably tell you that you need to see a solicitor officially but may be able to help if there's one near you.
Do you need to do the lessons for a new licence since you already had a provisional before? It might be different now but after they brought in the rule about sitting the theory test before getting a licence my wife got a new provisional but didn't need to sit the theory test as she had a provisional licence before the rule was brought in. She did have to apply for a test though.
I wouldn't think getting a new licence would be an option anyway. When you go to the guards they would notice the date of the licence was after the offence & they would be able to check & know you didn't have a valid licence before getting it. Besides that to you would have to wait after applying for a licence for it to be sent out to you so might not get it in time.

SmartinMartin

You have landed your mother in a bit of a catch 22 situation. If she says you didn't have permission to use the car you can be prosecuted for unlawfully taking the car, and if she covers for you and says you had permission she can be prosecuted for allowing her vehicle to be driven without insurance.
Wanted to see the waves. Fukk sake.

greenfieldbush

Hi all.

Thank you for your replies.

I completely understand where each one of you is coming from, and no I don't deserve any sympathy intact the opposite.

Thank you for answering the questions.

If I was to get the full penalty, how likely is it to affect my ability to find work in the future?
Would companies consider this offense a viable reason not to employ a person?

Thank you.

coylemj

raxy wrote: »

You might be able to get free legal advice from a citizens information office.

So the taxpayers should fund a free legal consultation for the OP? I don't think so. They may be able to offer tea and sympathy but I would prefer if they were left to spend their time helping people with hardship and crisis issues like dealing with the threat of eviction - the OP's situation is not the type of hard case that these centres were established to deal with.

He doesn't so much need legal advice as a legal presence in the court. Someone who knows how to deal with the local judge is what he needs, poster 4ensic15 in post #3 is spot on.

knucklehead6

SmartinMartin wrote: »

You have landed your mother in a bit of a catch 22 situation. If she says you didn't have permission to use the car you can be prosecuted for unlawfully taking the car, and if she covers for you and says you had permission she can be prosecuted for allowing her vehicle to be driven without insurance.
Wanted to see the waves. Fukk sake.

Something similar happened to a family i know a few years ago. The youngest son (a bit of a tearaway) took the fathers brand new company car out for a spin and totalled it, i think there was drink driving involved.

The fathers company apparently took the view that the father could buy the car off them to prevent the son being done for taking without permission, or they'd go through insurance and the son would be done for that, as well as drink driving.

I'm not sure what the outcome was though

Effects

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Erm... He stole a car

No, he borrowed his mother's car without asking.

vandriver

If there was a ban,would the full license ie the motorcycle license be the one to be banned?

boardsuser1

vandriver wrote: »

If there was a ban,would the full license ie the motorcycle license be the one to be banned?

A ban for all categories, not just the one in which the offence was committed.

Riskymove

greenfieldbush wrote: »

If I was to get the full penalty, how likely is it to affect my ability to find work in the future?
Would companies consider this offense a viable reason not to employ a person?

I doubt it would be a significant problem..other than a job in driving I guess - it will have an effect on your future insurance costs

whomitconcerns

Effects wrote: »

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Erm... He stole a car

No, he borrowed his mother's car without asking.

That would be called stealing

lawred2

whomitconcerns wrote: »

That would be called stealing

Actually you're wrong. Legally speaking taking without permission/consent is not the same as theft. It is often regarded as a lesser offence.

The OP is hardly going to be accused of theft. To prove theft you have to prove that the person taking the vehicle intended to permanently deprive the owner of the car - this is a hard sell when the accused is closely related or is a friend of the owner.

It should be clear to anyone that the OP was not stealing his mother's car.

brightspark

lawred2 wrote: »

Actually you're wrong. Legally speaking taking without permission/consent is not the same as theft. It is often regarded as a lesser offence.

The OP is hardly going to be accused of theft. To prove theft you have to prove that the person taking the vehicle intended to permanently deprive the owner of the car - this is a hard sell when the accused is closely related or is a friend of the owner.

It should be clear to anyone that the OP was not stealing his mother's car.

I think you need to read the law

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it.

“depriving” means temporarily or permanently depriving.

lawred2

brightspark wrote: »

I think you need to read the law

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

well here's me standing corrected then...

maybe I got that mixed up with UK law.. I didn't realise that temporary deprivation was a thing here. Well there you go - live and learn

SmartinMartin

brightspark wrote: »

I think you need to read the law

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

Surely section 112 rta is the applicable legislation here.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/112/enacted/en/html

Sue Pa Key Pa

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote:

I feel very sorry for the situation the OP is in. The OP put a lot of time, effort and money into getting his/her motorbike license and I hope they don't lose it. Please don't criticise the OP, he/she already knows that they're in trouble.

That's the only post in this thread that needs criticism. The OP behaved very badly and is looking to see how serious it will be. It's a fair request but doesn't warrant sympathy

brightspark

SmartinMartin wrote: »

Surely section 112 rta is the applicable legislation here.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/112/enacted/en/html

It's probably the one he should be charged with. I'm guessing there is no need for a jury for road traffic act offences? whereas the theft legislation would probably need a jury?

However SmartinMartin and Lawred2, if I "borrowed" your car for a few hours without asking you first would you be telling people afterwards that I only borrowed it or that I stole it?

whomitconcerns

brightspark wrote: »

It's probably the one he should be charged with. I'm guessing there is no need for a jury for road traffic act offences? whereas the theft legislation would probably need a jury?

However SmartinMartin and Lawred2, if I "borrowed" your car for a few hours without asking you first would you be telling people afterwards that I only borrowed it or that I stole it?

Well if my (insert OP age) son took my car without insurance tax or a licence and got stopped by the police I think I might just leave it as stolen...if he doesn't give a f%@* why would I?

Anyway OP..disregarding everything else..get a good lawyer..but be prepared for some severe penalties.

SmartinMartin

brightspark wrote: »

It's probably the one he should be charged with. I'm guessing there is no need for a jury for road traffic act offences? whereas the theft legislation would probably need a jury?

However SmartinMartin and Lawred2, if I "borrowed" your car for a few hours without asking you first would you be telling people afterwards that I only borrowed it or that I stole it?

It doesn't matter what I would say, the person who took the car would be charged with 112 rta.

Peregrinus

vandriver wrote: »

If there was a ban,would the full license ie the motorcycle license be the one to be banned?

Licenses aren't banned; drivers are. If you get a ban, you can't drive on any licence.

Rubberchikken

There's no excuse for what you did. No sympathy either.
I realise you know you were yo blame after all you made the decision to drive this car.
Take whatever comes and learn from it.

lawred2

brightspark wrote: »

It's probably the one he should be charged with. I'm guessing there is no need for a jury for road traffic act offences? whereas the theft legislation would probably need a jury?

However SmartinMartin and Lawred2, if I "borrowed" your car for a few hours without asking you first would you be telling people afterwards that I only borrowed it or that I stole it?

I would say you stole it

If my son took it (when he's of age) I'd say he had no intention of stealing it - he'd still get a right bollocking though