Discovery 1x05 – "Choose Your Pain" [** SPOILERS **]

Sad Professor

Warning: This thread will contain spoilers for the episode "Choose Your Pain". Spoiler tags will not be used, so if you don't want to be spoiled read no further.

Vicxas

I am really loving this all swearing, violence Star Trek.

Goodshape

Loved it, again.

Spore drive still seems silly, I think that was the only let down.

Good character episode and I'd be looking forward to that. Didn't disappoint. Mudd was well played by Rainn Wilson and not overused. Enjoyable and didn't feel like fan service.

Stamets and the doctor look like such a cute couple :-D. Lovely little button on the episode there, and the final mirror shot! Ohhh.. looking forward to that.

I think that prisoner who Lorca picked up is sticking around, too. Recognise him from promos and things during the summer.

AMKC

Goodshape wrote: »

Loved it, again.

Spore drive still seems silly, I think that was the only let down.

Good character episode and I'd be looking forward to that. Didn't disappoint. Mudd was well played by Rainn Wilson and not overused. Enjoyable and didn't feel like fan service.

Stamets and the doctor look like such a cute couple :-D. Lovely little button on the episode there, and the final mirror shot! Ohhh.. looking forward to that.

I think that prisoner who Lorca picked up is sticking around, too. Recognise him from promos and things during the summer.

Spore drive still seems silly.

I don't mind the spore drive so much now that I have seen it working,how it works and that Discovery also has a normal warp core too.

I think Red matter from the JJ films was worse.

LionelNashe

Goodshape wrote: »

Loved it, again.

Spore drive still seems silly, .......

and Star Trek is still a bit too fond of the "DNA is magic" trope

pixelburp

Stronger episode than last weeks, with some good character work for the various non-Burnham / Lorca characters. I wasn't expecting Saru to step up and take command, and the little piece with Burnham at the end felt like the first steps towards mending fences between the two; their sniping and antagonism was beginning to wear a little thin, but Saru's open honesty about a chance missed to learn from Georghiou was a good moment between them (and speaking of Captain Saru, the little easter egg mention of Jonathan Archer & Captain Pike was nice).

I was wondering how on earth they'd approach Harry Mudd, and to the writers credit they really struck a neat balance in maintaining his breezy, roguish charm against the obviously grimier, darker hues of this time in the Federation. I don't imagine it'll be too long before we see him again, seeking revenge against Lorca - and that's a good thing; the show still needs those inflections of humour and adventure, despite how strong all the harder edged drama has been.

On Lorca, hmmm. Well, I still maintain the course for this series is going to pit Burnham & the science / engineering staff against Lorca & his obvious Ahab-esque approach to captaining, and this episode did nothing to change my opinion. To the point where I think I might straight-up hate the guy; he's clearly a total, unrepentant dick - and going by his meeting with the top brass, is not informing them of just how damaging the Spore Drive is shaping out to be.

_Kaiser_

Oh so now we're adding swearing to show how edgy and mature this show is?

Spore drive is just nonsense, the "Klingon" designs are shockingly poor, the Tardigrade did a Wesley Crusher and wtf is with the (no doubt) evil mirror afterimage?

This get's further away from Star Trek every week. It's GoT in space.. more reliant on fantasy and shock value every episode, and it's not getting any better IMO

pixelburp

Whatever else it is or isn't, it's definitely NOT game of thrones in space. The Expanse is game of thrones in space, given its about the same kind of faction drama that's the stalwart of that genre. Discovery is Star Trek at War, but still very Trek in its outlook. It's clear nobody wanted to harm the tardigrade, and immediately backed saving it once it's pain and suffering was established. Not trek enough I take it?

Goodshape

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Oh so now we're adding swearing to show how edgy and mature this show is?

Was a nice touch that they wrapped it in such an immature exclamation from Tilly – and it's not often we get to see a character on Star Trek so excited about their extraordinary job.

It was a 'shock' moment, but it was well handled and I think it worked. I chuckled.

_Kaiser_

pixelburp wrote: »

Whatever else it is or isn't, it's definitely NOT game of thrones in space. The Expanse is game of thrones in space, given its about the same kind of faction drama that's the stalwart of that genre. Discovery is Star Trek at War, but still very Trek in its outlook. It's clear nobody wanted to harm the tardigrade, and immediately backed saving it once it's pain and suffering was established. Not trek enough I take it?

Ah here we go again. Don't like the direction - you must not like Trek :rolleyes:

We've had Star Trek at war.. it was called DS9 and it handled the subject very well while still maintaining a (generally) positive outlook and bond between the characters, and consistent within it's own universe (for the most part).

This relies on magic spores, gore and violence, and random shock value (character deaths, now swearing etc) to sell its premise which is based on... what? Character conflict, almost entirely unlikable main characters, 'splosions and lens flare, and rewriting characters/situations/designs just coz..

I just cannot accept this as set in the same universe and era as TOS given the massively different tone (forget the effects) of this series and its characters. If it turns out now that it IS all Mirror/JJ Universe then that negates most of the above I suppose, but for me anyway it only really works if I mentally disassociate it from the "Star Trek" tag when I watch it.

_Kaiser_

Goodshape wrote: »

Was a nice touch that they wrapped it in such an immature exclamation from Tilly – and it's not often we get to see a character on Star Trek so excited about their extraordinary job.

It was a 'shock' moment, but it was well handled and I think it worked. I chuckled.

Again, on any other show yes it probably would work but for me it comes down to..

What IS Star Trek and does Discovery FIT that definition?

Also Starring LeVar Burton

This was my favourite episode so far - it did a good job developing the core characters a bit more and finally introduced the final series regular in Ash Tyler, who I think will be a good addition. I enjoyed Rainn Wilson's Mudd too and look forward to seeing him again.

My only gripe at the moment (and it's very much a minor one), is the way the Klingon's speak sounds very awkward and stilted, and hopefully going forward they'll phase that out a bit and have them sound a bit more natural - I'm not sure if it's the teeth they have in or if its more the direction they've been given, but it takes away from their scenes a bit.

Spear

Anyone else reckon Ash Tyler is a setup and a double agent?

Potential future episode spoiler:

Edit: seems my cynicism is confirmed by some casting info.

pixelburp

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ah here we go again. Don't like the direction - you must not like Trek :rolleyes:

Quit the eye rolling, I wasn't having a go, but you're comparing apples and oranges. 'GoT in space' isn't even reductionist. Discovery may have ocassional gore and that is a shock - as was the brief f-bomb - but structurally, narratively, it ain't anything like Game of Thrones. As I said, The Expanse is much more overtly cut from the same cloth being as it is about scheming factions

c_man

I can't wait til we get a Star Trek show about discovering new planets and new civilisations.... So 5 episodes in and my initial fears about this show seem to be correct, a gritty war-time show, now with swearing!

Before someone mentions the spores, yeah the main point of interest there is what problem there is with them that's in keeping with canon and never having them mention again.

Goodshape

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What IS Star Trek and does Discovery FIT that definition?

It's many things, and yeah it does – or at least I can't see why not.

Spear wrote: »

Anyone else reckon Ash Tyler is a setup and a double agent?

Potential future episode spoiler:

Edit: seems my cynicism is confirmed by some casting info.

Reddit thread titles are pretty much giving this one away today. Seems incredibly likely, and interesting enough if true. I just hope they don't drag out an obvious reveal now.

Spear

Goodshape wrote: »

Reddit thread titles are pretty much giving this one away today. Seems incredibly likely, and interesting enough if true. I just hope they don't drag out an obvious reveal now.

They already telegraphed the next episode with the last few seconds. They really do like their forewshadowing in this show.

PhiloCypher

AMKC wrote: »

Spore drive still seems silly.

I don't mind the spore drive so much now that I have seen it working,how it works and that Discovery also has a normal warp core too.

I think Red matter from the JJ films was worse.

The spore drive thing has never bothered me either from a canon perspective or the way they've explained it , I know it's got something to do with quantum entanglement and that's good enough for me. I don't need Geordie La Forge spouting technobabble nonsense to get me on board every new bit of technology.

You do realise they have used the Discovery's warp drive at least once before this episode (possibly more , I'd have to rewatch them), they warped away after the Spore drive had dropped them too close to a star in the last episode.

On the episode itself , I really liked it , unlike previous episodes all the, presumably, core group got some good scenes . I like that they jumped ahead a few weeks to reveal the Discovery had been busy putting Klingons on the defensive with their hit n run tactics and that this had pushed the Tardigrade to its limit . I had thought that they would drag out the concerns for the Tardigrades welfare till the mid season break but I'm glad it came to a head in this episode, if only so people stop moaning about how uncaring and unstarfleet the crew are. With the Tardigrade freed will Stamets be used as the navigator or is that a line that even Lorca won't cross (he's been ordered to stand down at any rate so maybe it won't be an issue ). On Lorca, it was quite the revelation to me that the Discovery is his second command since the Battle of the Binaries and that he sacrificed his crew rather then allow to them to be tortured , eaten or used for propaganda, but I guess it's what has him so driven to bring the battle to the enemy . On a side note was great to hear the klingon captain speaking english , hopefully we'll be seeing more of her and Klingons speaking English in general.

Wasn't overly bothered by the cursing so long as they don't overdo it and have them dropping f-bombs left and right .

Inviere

Really enjoyed this one, definitely improved upon last week's one. The one complaint I have about it, and it might seem a bit prudish, but the swearing took me right out of the world of Star Trek for a few minutes, and instead I kinda felt this was like watching todays humans with space ships. I don't think it added anything to the scene, and personally felt it wasn't warranted. Everything else though, more please!

One random thought I had during the show was, what if spore-drive tech works as intended, and has been kept classified at the highest levels for Section 31 only?

Secondly, the ending confused me a little bit...when the character walked away from the mirror, his reflection remained, and walked away separately. What does that signify? Given this was the first spore-jump using a human, does it signify they've crossed over to a mirror universe or something? Or, was the timing of the scene retroactive, and it wasn't him that walked away from the mirror, it was his partner?

Spear

Inviere wrote: »

Secondly, the ending confused me a little bit...when the character walked away from the mirror, his reflection remained, and walked away separately. What does that signify? Given this was the first spore-jump using a human, does it signify they've crossed over to a mirror universe or something? Or, was the timing of the scene retroactive, and it wasn't him that walked away from the mirror, it was his partner?

If you really want the answer:

spoiler for upcoming episode:

they've said there's a mirror universe episode, again they're foreshadowing the next episode.

The_Valeyard

I liked it,

Felt really like a Trek episode, the morals of the Spore drive. I also liked Harry Mudd, could be his slow path to madness!

The one thing that annoyed me, and I know its a stupid thing.....

but....

That was not a Klingon D7 Cruiser!!!!!!!

server down

c_man wrote: »

I can't wait til we get a Star Trek show about discovering new planets and new civilisations.... So 5 episodes in and my initial fears about this show seem to be correct, a gritty war-time show, now with swearing!

Before someone mentions the spores, yeah the main point of interest there is what problem there is with them that's in keeping with canon and never having them mention again.

We had voyager but lots of Trekkies didn’t like it.

We can’t have a Star Trek trekking in this era because the biggest fans will denounce every new alien life form found and later on the federation is too powerful (as Seamus said).

Inviere

server down wrote: »

and later on the federation is too powerful (as Seamus said).

There are countless interesting ways to resolve that, though I can't see it ever being tried.

This might explain why the Spore drive wasn't really a thing and why we don't really hear about it - if the creature is sentient, then the Federation probably doesn't want it known that they were abusing something like it for their own gain.

I'm just curious though - Kaiser, are you going to continue watching the show week in, week out, despite the fact you seemingly hate it?

hal9550

The Good!

Really enjoyed the Klingon scenes in this episode! We have been told for many years and through many series that the Klingons treat their prisoners pretty crappy! I have no issue with anything of this episodes demonstration of Klingon methods! Again rather than talk about it, we got to see how ruthless these guys are!

Mudd was decent, smarter than the original series but we will see where he goes!

Im not a fan of Saru but he was decentin this episode!

Generally Starfleet seemed more real in this one and i liked Lorca's back story. Before anyone attacks him destroying his previous ship, remember Picard once had the Enterprise D on auto destruct because an omnipotent being was threatening to kill between a third and a half of the crew

The MYSTERIOUS!

The last scene.. very curious.. Discussions on Genes Vision, New vs Old Trek, and all that aside! That scene was freaky. What did people think?

I know the mirror universe was mentioned by Frakes as supposedly being present in at least 1 episode - Do we think the Spores may be present and interconnected over the Multi Verse? And what does it mean? The fact the engineer used the spores, could it be that he know has the ability to see the other universe? Kinda like Man in the high Castle?

The Bad!

I will judge the D7 as some sort of battle variant although we didnt really get a good view of the ship so its impossible to say.. Strange but i am finding myself very forgiving of these subtle canon variations. Still they could have just called it a D6 or something - i like D7s (Id own a few if i could as pleasure boats)

The UGLY

Johnathan Archer is highly decorated??? I really believed/had-faith-in the idea that the reason Archer or his NX1 was not mentioned in the 23rd and 24th century was that starfleet had erased him from history. Genuinely!!! Had visions of starfleet admirals discussing it and one exclaiming, 'Archer is dead to us, dont ever mention him or his crappy ship again.. THATS AN ORDER'

Good episode happy to discuss. Perhaps a separate thread could be set up for the 'Its Not Trek VS it IS TREK' parties to fight it out!?? That we we can discuss theories and potential plot arks here!!!!!

hal9550

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Again, on any other show yes it probably would work but for me it comes down to..

What IS Star Trek and does Discovery FIT that definition?

Think we have interacted before on previous threads! id be genuinely interested in debating this with you.. genuinely.. not at all mocking your position. I was very vocal in attacking JJ Trek for example, but im more forgiving of Discovery because.. well I dont know lets discuss?

But maybe (and no im not FLEET ADMIRAL HAL, CnC of the UNIVERSE).. maybe we could have a seperate thread? TREK vs its NOT TREK!?

Im just REALLY excited by this show and would love a more 'WOW WHERE IS THAT GOING' chat.. as opposed to a

ITS TREK!
>NO ITS NOT
YES IT IS!!!!
>NOT
IS....

Goodshape

hal9550 wrote: »

maybe we could have a seperate thread? TREK vs its NOT TREK!?

Discovery - Timeline, continuity and other canonical issues [** SPOILERS **]

murpho999

Thought it was a very good episode and found it to be the most 'trekkie' yet.

I was really shocked by the f-bomb. I'm not a prude or offended by cursing in anyway. I just didn't expect it as I don't associate it with Star Trek and it really seemed a bit contrived to me to show how gritty and modern they are.

I'm not sure yet how I feel about the whole series following one story arc rather then self contained stories per episode but I wonder how that will change as the show goes on.

Not bothered by the spore travel thing, how can people find ideas in science fiction ridiculous? Anything is possible and it's just a means to an end. Find character development and story line more important and thought it was strong in this episode.

Optimus Prime

I enjoyed it too, but it really bothers me that the first officer and star fleet admirals don’t see that torturing an animal to travel through space is wrong. I felt like shouting at the screen. It’s so stupid and opposing to pretty much everything we’ve learned from Star Trek in 60 years.

Also the cursing was weird. It was a bit out of place though it was handled well. When it happened it just took me out of the episode.

Could the delay at the end with the mirror indicate a time displacement. I know a few have speculated that discovery will travel to the future at the end of the series.

pixelburp

Optimus Prime wrote: »

I enjoyed it too, but it really bothers me that the first officer and star fleet admirals don’t see that torturing an animal to travel through space is wrong. I felt like shouting at the screen. It’s so stupid and opposing to pretty much everything we’ve learned from Star Trek in 60 years.

I don't think it's clear the top brass even know the drive involved hurting the animal. I got the impression they were only given what Lorca told them, and that was that the shiny experimental drive worked, second time of asking. Lorca himself seems willfully intent on ignoring the hows and whys of these things, and I daresay couldn't care less the creature is suffering. This is a true 'ends justifies the means' kinda guy after all. The scene was definitely muddled and needed more detail, but I didn't immediately presume the admirals were immediately ignoring the plight of the animal, it just required more exposition..

Evade

This one is pretty good ,There's still a lot of dumb stuff but it's growing on me. I didn't notice before this episode how xenomorphic the back of the klingons skulls are.

The cursing seems really out of place.

I think this whole episode could have been avoided by using holocommunications, I thought that was what we were seeing for the first few minutes. Speaking of holograms, having a huge mirror when they use holograms as mirrors seems odd.

Another week and another list of people with an odd choice. A nicer touch might have been having Reed or Travis on that list or someone who wasn't human like T'Pol or Shran.

One thing I will say about the Disco, it looks great from the right angle with the right light.