Why does Dublin only have one airport whereas similarly-sized cities have two?

Gerrup Outta Dat!

Belfast has two - Belfast International and Belfast George Best. Copenhagen has two as well - Copenhagen Roskilde and Copenhagen Airport. Oslo, Brussels and Reykjavik all have two and so do Venice and Glasgow.

If the two airports were segregated, we could easily channel people in two tiers, one for inter-European flights and "commuter routes" to / from London for example and the other one for trans-atlantic/asian/australian routes.

Speaking of which, would there not be demand for a once-a-week service from EIDW to somewhere in Australia given our huge expat community there? EI could operate a high capacity, low frequency route. It'd possibly be 16-17 hours non-stop and would require the purchase or lease of A340 or A380, but is very doable and possibly profitable.

Yet, other cities such as Atlanta have one airport and it is a HUGE transit airport.

737max

Ireland had an Emergency while the rest of the world had a world war therefore not many airstrips which evolved in to airports
I don't think IAG would like the Canibalism of their passenger loads from other routes for other brands in the group.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

737max wrote: »

I don't think IAG would like the Canibalism of their passenger loads from other routes for other brands in the group.

What do you mean by that pal?

smurfjed

16-17 hours non-stop

9292 NM great circle, that will take much longer than 16-17 hours, and who would want to sit in a high capacity aircraft for that amount of time?

737max

smurfjed wrote: »

9292 NM great circle, that will take much longer than 16-17 hours, and who would want to sit in a high capacity aircraft with drunk/sobbing Paddies for that amount of time?

elated on the way to Potatoland and damned depressed on the way back.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

smurfjed wrote: »

Who would want to sit in a high capacity aircraft for that amount of time?

Wasn't there already a flight non-stop London to Darwin before?

Cookie_Monster

smurfjed wrote: »

16-17 hours non-stop

9292 NM great circle, that will take much longer than 16-17 hours, and who would want to sit in a high capacity aircraft for that amount of time?

Me, akl to Dubai. Since it cuts flight time by about 2 hours and means 3 hour less in sydney or brisbane

Irish Steve

A much better option would be a flight to AUS that goes via either Bejing or Hong Kong, and either of those places are pretty close to the great circle, which would make them more attractive for costings.

As for the number of airports, it's only in relatively recent times that the numbers flying to or through Dublin have reached the level of possibly justifying a second airport.

The harsh reality though is that building a second airport anywhere even remotely close to Dublin would be mired in planning and NIMBY issues for a generation or more, and there's no way to know how air travel will develop in the long term, given the issues of oil pricing and availability.

737max

To get a new airport built in Ireland requires vision.
A government which wants to counterweigh the effect of Dublin would need to have vision and build an airport capable of accommodating 737/320 planes somewhere outside the pale.
The only new airport built in the recent past in Ireland was built because of vision but that was a vision of the Virgin Mary appearing and speaking to a few of the locals which isn't the type of vision Ireland needs.

orionm_73

Transfer traffic is increasing at DUB. EI is actively growing that business. Having 2 airports, one for short haul the other for long haul would decimate that transfer traffic.

Davidth88

You have Belfast airport only 1.5 hours from Dublin to the north ... Shannon 2 hrs to the west and cork 2.5 hours to the south..... do you really need another one ?

I am surprised Ryanair does not call Shannon "Dublin West " .. it's not much further from Dublin than hahn is from Frankfurt or beauvais is from Paris.

Anyway according to some politicians Ryanair are already operating secret flights from Weston!!

What is needed is a second runway at dublin and a rail link .

Gerrup Outta Dat!

Why was EICM not built to accommodate a 738 or A320. An Avro RJ / BAe146 would have been great for the airport. I don't know how the died the death that it did. Surely with Galway being over two hours from EIDW with a good population there, there would have been demand for it to stay open.


Avros can land / takeoff on a sixpence. Why didn't WX swoop in?

goingnowhere

Because Shannon is just down the road and Knock is near enough

Sorry OP but a lot of the cities you named the 2nd airport was a new built one on green field with the orginial now unused (Copenhagen/Oslo) or is in another smaller city a reasonable distance away (Venice/Brussels/Prestwick). So not really a fair comparison.

While others talk of vision I prefer to talk about reality. Up until 2005 Dublin was very capable of dealing with the passenger numbers it was seeing so there was no need for a second airport. Post 2005 there was a crash so no chance of getting funding for it.

Now again in reality we see how difficult it has been to get permission for a parallel runway now imagine seeking land and permission for an airport out near Mullingar etc. :rolleyes: would building one out there actually solve any issues ? Transport infrastructure for a start, yeah there is a motorway but that is a lot of journeys by car, taxis are ruled out, rail is poor plus does current have capacity for intense use. How about getting fuel there for the aircraft, build a pipeline ? well it took years to sort one to Dublin after many objections.

As for a direct flight to Oz :rolleyes: that will never happen, plenty of one stop connection flights to everywhere on the planet.

737max

Deleted User wrote: »

While others talk of vision I prefer to talk about reality.

put this little piece of reality in your pipe and smoke it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-is-world-s-10th-most-congested-city-1.1818738

Victor

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Why does Dublin only have one airport whereas similarly-sized cities have two?

To a certain degree, Dublin has 3 if you include Weston and Baldonnel, it's just that each specialises in a particular type of operations, as opposed to having mixed operations.

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Belfast has two - Belfast International and Belfast George Best.

Because Shorts is next to Belfast George Best, which wasn't suitable for long haul aircraft or intense military operations.

Copenhagen has two as well - Copenhagen Roskilde and Copenhagen Airport.

Roskilde has few passenger movements, handling 20,000-30,000 passegners per year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roskilde_Airport
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_busiest_airports_in_the_Nordic_countries

Oslo, Brussels and Reykjavik all have two and so do Venice and Glasgow.

Charleroi and Prestwick aren't in Brussels or Glasgow - and so on.

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

If the two airports were segregated, we could easily channel people in two tiers, one for inter-European flights and "commuter routes" to / from London for example and the other one for trans-atlantic/asian/australian routes.

You would lose all transfer passengers as they wouldn't be willing to get a bus / taxi in between flights - in another country.

Speaking of which, would there not be demand for a once-a-week service from EIDW to somewhere in Australia given our huge expat community there? EI could operate a high capacity, low frequency route. It'd possibly be 16-17 hours non-stop and would require the purchase or lease of A340 or A380, but is very doable and possibly profitable.

Operating a single aircraft of any given type lacks economies of scale. Now, as to whether another airline would operate such a route is another matter.

Calina

737max wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

While others talk of vision I prefer to talk about reality.

put this little piece of reality in your pipe and smoke it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-is-world-s-10th-most-congested-city-1.1818738

That isn't really relevant to whether Dublin should have a second airport or not. Lots of cities of similar population don't. But traffic congestion on the streets doesn't really impact airport capacity.

737max

You tell that to all the people commuting northbound or southbound on the M50 in the mornings or evenings when the airport is at its busiest.

JCX BXC

Would be a very stupid decision to build a second airport in DUB. Look at Atlanta, largest airport in the world! Yet it's in a small/medium sized city (world terms). Alot of that has to do with it being the only large airport in the area.

It would be massively counter productive.

737max

A second airport is a less than perfect solution if the operator and chief shareholder in the existing airport doesn't want to fix the problems with the main airport in Dublin.
As shareholder of main airport and nimby fearer the shareholder won't build a second airport.
As representative of the public the shareholder(the government) won't fix the connectivity problems with the main airport because it is damned expensive and they are tightwads and they fear nimbies.
The role of minister for transport would be one of those roles within Government shouldn't ever be treated like a bauble with which to bribe independents because it is critical to the well-being of the country but they bought off an independent with the role hoping that he'd also work as mudguard for nimby and union issues in the process. cynical government not working toward best interests of public.

737max

737max wrote: »

put this little piece of reality in your pipe and smoke it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-is-world-s-10th-most-congested-city-1.1818738

Really :rolleyes: !! Most people are departing Dublin statistically before 0800 in the morning so will be in the airport before 0630 before the M50 gets busy.

737max

Deleted User wrote: »

Really :rolleyes: !! Most people are departing Dublin statistically before 0800 in the morning so will be in the airport before 0630 before the M50 gets busy.

That isn't my memory of the M50 or the times I missed or nearly missed flights from Dublin in the morning or evening.
Insert sarcastic emoji for added effect

If you want to bluff someone on the topic of Dublin congestion pick someone who hasn't lived in Dublin most of their adult life.
I've mentioned previously that I often fly in to other Irish airports because it is swings and roundabouts with regard to time savings due to the horrible congestion in Dublin

Victor

JCX BXC wrote: »

Would be a very stupid decision to build a second airport in DUB. Look at Atlanta, largest airport in the world! Yet it's in a small/medium sized city (world terms).

"Atlanta is the cultural and economic center of the Atlanta metropolitan area, home to 5,710,795 people and the ninth-largest metropolitan area in the United States." - not to be sniffed at.

737max

I was reading a tourist piece in the local newspaper about short breaks to Dublin; it sounded idyllic, must go sometime...anyhow...they reminded the readers that Dublin city is only the size of the local city because those outside Ireland have no idea how small the population of the Island and Dublin city actually is.

JCX BXC

I can't make sense of what you said, but I'd like to point out that the metropolitan population of Dublin is 1.9millon.

737max

What is your point?
are you presenting 1.9 million as a large or small number vis-a-vis small to medium sized cities on the continent?

Dublin is imagined overseas by those who don't care to look at wikipedia or the cia world factbook as a large city.

JCX BXC

I don't think what people imagine of Dublin overseas really does anything to affect the market or whether we should have a second airport or not.

737max

I think people overseas naively expect a capital city to have a world class airport(s) whereas the locals no longer harbour any grand notions as to what Ireland a nation can collectively muster with respect to international connectivity.

JCX BXC

I'd assume anyone who's thinking about doing business in Dublin will have the market thoroughly investigated before doing anything. What lay people think doesn't matter.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with anything though? I feel like an elderly man rambling on about nothing.

737max

JCX BXC wrote: »

I'd assume anyone who's thinking about doing business in Dublin will have the market thoroughly investigated before doing anything.

like they care about whether their workers can afford to live in or able to move around the city.
come to think of it....
http://www.independent.ie/business/jp-morgan-warns-of-infrastructural-constraints-as-ireland-seeks-brexit-spoils-35713324.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/special-reports/business-ireland-magazine/dublin-must-rise-to-the-challenge-of-brexit-1.3028000

737max

737max wrote: »

That isn't my memory of the M50 or the times I missed or nearly missed flights from Dublin in the morning or evening.
Insert sarcastic emoji for added effect

If you want to bluff someone on the topic of Dublin congestion pick someone who hasn't lived in Dublin most of their adult life.
I've mentioned previously that I often fly in to other Irish airports because it is swings and roundabouts with regard to time savings due to the horrible congestion in Dublin

Please see page 95, 99 and 100 for more bluffing
https://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Helios%20capacity%20assessment%20workstream%202/P2410D008_Dublin_Capacity_Assessment_Final_Report_v1_2(clean).pdf

Current traffic conditions
Google records the state of traffic on most roads using data from mobile phone users and
displays them in Google Maps. Experience has shown that this data tends to be quite
accurate and is a useful tool to identify congestion.
According to Google Maps, current traffic conditions appear to be satisfactory, despite
some queues during peak hours, most notably on Fridays. The main limit to capacity
appears to be the roundabout at the airport’s entrance between the R132 and the road
towards the M1. Traffic coming from the long-term parking (between M1 and R132 with
9,000 parking spaces) appears to have difficulties entering the roundabout from the South
during Friday afternoons.

Specifically see Figure 43 that shows the spare capacity at peak hours notably between 26 and 30%.

Figure 44: Map of traffic conditions
Traffic conditions on the M50 and M1 between Dublin and the airport appear generally
acceptable with no congestion observed by Google during Friday afternoons. This is not
the case on the M50 West of the interchange with the M1 where some congestion
appears, notably on the M50 section between the junction with the M1 and R135. This
seems to be due to some congestion on the slipways at the interchanges.

This study was conducted by Helios was contracted by the Commission for Aviation Regulation to undertake an independent
assessment of the current capacity of Dublin Airport not by me a well known bluffer apparently. It was done in 2017 so is up to date. By the way we are talking about Dublin Airport and NOT the city in general so stop referring to things that are not relevant to the subject.

737max

Hmmm, you don't tell me to look at page 101.

This raises the question of the ability of the current road
infrastructure to absorb the currently observed road traffic growth. Even though the future
Metro North to the airport will satisfy an apparent demand for public transport solutions(like fook it will)
and relieve the road network, a comprehensive traffic study is recommended to to verify
the residual road capacity and to evaluate the impact a
nd benefit of proposed
solutions.

The metro when/if it is built if the economy doesn't go in to recession between now and then will not hook up to a bus station or a train station yet this airport is supposed to be the main airport for the entire country.
Here where I am I can walk down to the local train station and buy a ticket for the 100km or so to get me via train and then high speed train to the multi-platform Station in the main airport in this part of the country.
Do you know what I see when taking a train from the on-site airport station here; Loads of people with wheelie suitcases. I get off the high speed train at the nearest big city and they continue on for I don't know 50, 100, 200km more; That's an integrated transport solution.

The report you link to basically says "we've got a motorway nearby but the traffic does back up on the roads which link from the motorway to the airport".

ctrl-f and look for references to train or tram or rail or bus and see what you find.

you see, you present me with a report which ultimately contradicts what you would like me to believe and contradicts my personal direct experience of trying to connect to the airport. Why should I believe you?

When/If the metro is built getting to/from the airport to anywhere outside Dublin especially from 20:00 to 08:00 will still be an ordeal.

Do you want to talk about the projected population increase in the Greater Dublin Area in the coming two decades and the impact that will have on journey times.

Jamie2k9

No city the size of Dublin has two airports in Europe, most are 2 and 3 times bigger and/or serve 4/5 times the population than DUB.

Using Belfast as an example just shows what a disaster having two airports in a small city means.

BHD is the DUP's baby, bit like how politicians treated SNN until no so long ago.

faceman

I wouldn’t even be considering a second airport until another runway and terminal was built and were forecast to be at capacity. Also where would we stick it? Tallaght? Glen of the Downs? Carlow?

Bigger issue is infrastructure to and from the airport. Being a southsider I tend to avoid flights departing between 9 and 11am on weekdays as the drive to the airport will be painful and risky if there is a crash.

Personally I’d like to see the M50 loop closed (yes I know it would look mad having a motorway over or under Dublin Bay but it’s necessary) and an outer ring road developed.

Give me a box of crayons and I’ll do a better job than our city planners!

737max

faceman wrote: »

where would we stick it? Tallaght? Glen of the Downs? Carlow?

already owned but it is just used for the air corps trainers and the govt. jet.
if they wanted to develop a proper connected airport I'd shut up about a 2nd airport.
In other countries the local government are shareholders in the airport and work toward the interests of the greater economy. it works. I think the only proper example of that in Ireland is Galway who can't even deliver clean water to their residents.

Jhcx

Davidth88 wrote: »

You have Belfast airport only 1.5 hours from Dublin to the north ... Shannon 2 hrs to the west and cork 2.5 hours to the south..... do you really need another one ?

I am surprised Ryanair does not call Shannon "Dublin West " .. it's not much further from Dublin than hahn is from Frankfurt or beauvais is from Paris.

Anyway according to some politicians Ryanair are already operating secret flights from Weston!!

What is needed is a second runway at dublin and a rail link .

This has been on my mind a lot. why havent Ryanair gone out of their way to provide more traffic. its not like there always on great terms with DAA. and yet if someone else was to operate from shannon . they'd move back in a heartbeat and pull out after the competition has gone.

Mutant z

It doesnt really need another one what it does need is a railway link to that airport and a metro system neither of which have as yet gotten off the ground.

bk

The question you have to ask is, why?!

You almost have the perfect scenario with Dublin Airport.

- Pretty good modern airport
- Relatively very close to Dublin
- Plenty of space to expand, second runway, third terminal.
- Right on the M50, 2 to 3 hours on a Motorway to every city in Ireland.
- Now a major bus/coach depot.
- Will in the next few years be connected to Dublin And Swords (5th largest town/city in Ireland) by Metro.
- Could be plugged into the heavy rail network for relatively small cost.

You literally couldn't pick for a better scenario if you were playing sim-city!

Madness to even suggest a second airport for Dublin without first tapping out Dublin Airport. And to be honest, even once Dublin Airport is full, probably better to develop Cork, Shannon, etc. as alternatives, then building a whole new airport.

Davidth88

bk wrote:

- Pretty good modern airport - Relatively very close to Dublin - Plenty of space to expand, second runway, third terminal. - Right on the M50, 2 to 3 hours on a Motorway to every city in Ireland. - Now a major bus/coach depot. - Will in the next few years be connected to Dublin And Swords (5th largest town/city in Ireland) by Metro. - Could be plugged into the heavy rail network for relatively small cost.

I think the next few years for a metro is a little optimistic. Let's try 20 or 30 years ........if ever.

bk

Davidth88 wrote: »

I think the next few years for a metro is a little optimistic. Let's try 20 or 30 years ........if ever.

I'll happily bet €100 with you on that

Of course no guarantees, but it is looking very likely now.

The Taoiseach has specifically mentioned it (and the M20) repeatedly, including a tweet saying that it will be the next major project for Dublin.

Money was specifically set aside for it in the budget and behind the scenes I hear the planners at TII are scrambling to get it planned and tender for contracts go out in December.

Politically, Luas BXD will be complete in the next two months. After that no major transport infrastructure project will be happening in Dublin. Given how bad congestion is getting, it would be political suicide for FG to go for election in 2 to 3 years time in Dublin if no real progress is being made on this.

Of course no guarantees, Brexit or something similar might push us back into a recession, but otherwise it is looking very good now.

Carawaystick

737max wrote: »

When/If the metro is built getting to/from the airport to anywhere outside Dublin especially from 20:00 to 08:00 will still be an ordeal.

Do you want to talk about the projected population increase in the Greater Dublin Area in the coming two decades and the impact that will have on journey times.

It's waay easier to get PT to the airport from anywhere outside Dublin especially at the times you suggest than from in Dublin. There's no PT for most staff gettin to the airport at the time of the first flights, there's no PT from Coolock or Artane, Finglas
But there's coaches from every little town to the airport.

737max

Carawaystick wrote: »

But there's coaches from every little town to the airport.

Well, that bears no relationship to reality whatsoever or maybe I'm just trying to get to the airport from the Irish Brigadoon.

Victor

The airport does have a lot of long distance routes.

https://6fbc941dc3601609010c-fefe0183ab5374c49be7718979d9b9c7.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dublin-Airport-City-Routes1.pdf

https://6fbc941dc3601609010c-fefe0183ab5374c49be7718979d9b9c7.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dublin-Airport-Regional-Routes1.pdf

737max

Victor, do I need to remind you of the post where you advised someone to cross the entire country then double back halfway to get to where they wanted to get to from the airport?

Victor

737max wrote: »

Victor, do I need to remind you of the post where you advised someone to cross the entire country then double back halfway to get to where they wanted to get to from the airport?

It got them there much quicker, didn't it?

JCX BXC

Clutching at straws there to discredit discussion now 737max, how about we all agree to disagree?

737max

The claim was that Dublin Airport has good transport connections to the regions. I know for a fact that it doesn't and that if you don't have a hire car you are stranded.
A month or two ago Victor advised a guy travelling to the Midlands and arriving in to the airport after 8 to get a bus(not a train) to Ceantt Station and then get another bus to get back to the Midlands because no buses stop in the midlands late at night. The information was correct. Was it good advice? All it showed was that transport connections from the airport are very poor.

I can arrive in to Frankfurt on the last flight at night before the airport shuts down and have multiple options to get back to the bottom of my street by train. That doesn't exist in Ireland. Hell, I can even get back from Hahn late at night and that airport is in the middle of nowhere.

JCX BXC

737max wrote: »

The claim was that Dublin Airport has good transport connections to the regions. I know for a fact that it doesn't and that if you don't have a hire car you are stranded.

That's just grossly incorrect, I'd assume all the times I've decided to travel to the airport using public transport, all the way from Co.Clare, that I somehow got stranded?

I think that point says alot about how much sense alot of your posts make.

737max

...and yet I find myself renting a car tomorrow night from Dublin Airport.
Quit with your "you be talking crazy" sh!te.

The timetables are on the buseireann and iarnrod eireann websites and you can find the private operator timetables yourself. Connectivity from Dublin Airport after 8 is atrocious and if you are flying from Europe after a working day you'll be lucky to get anywhere outside the pale if you arrive in after 8.

L1011

737max wrote: »

Quit with your "you be talking crazy" sh!te.

Improve your posting standard or stop posting

737max wrote: »

.
The timetables are on the buseireann and iarnrod eireann websites and you can find the private operator timetables yourself.

www.a-b.ie

Negative_G

737max wrote: »

already owned but it is just used for the air corps trainers and the govt. jet.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to recommend Baldonnel. This old chestnut is rolled out every so often.

Baldonnel is the only dedicated military airfield in the country for flying operations. The cessation of operations at Finner camp and Gormonston mean that almost 100% of all Air Corps training and operations originate and end in Baldonnel.

Commercial operations will never happen at Baldonnel. The only possible expansion would be to include private jet operations, similar to RAF Northolt. However, you will not find ab initio and routine flight training taking place at Northolt as it is a purely operational airport and at all times maintains a 'military supremacy' MO where military traffic gets priority at all times so as not to affect their operations.