Options for Government to increase Electric Cars

Shefwedfan

Probably a thread on this already but I thought I would start one after recent Budget. Most of the options people thought would come out have not really come and the growth of Electric cars will be restricted.

I am just thinking of low cost idea's on how to increase usage.

First one that come to mind this morning is Phoenix park, for years the discussion has been around shutting down the park to traffic. I was in it this morning and loads of people out running/kids out/people walking/etc

And of course full of big dirty diesel engines everywhere. Why not shut the park down to traffic apart from electric cars. It is a park after all and it should not be a car park Monday - Friday for traffic. It would cost government nothing. It would finally get the park closed to majority of traffic. Also they already have plans for buses etc to get people in/out of work.

So why not?

This is just one option to discuss. Just looking at other idea's outside the standard "Free charger" and "Free charging" because neither of them is working

thierry14

More that move to EV the more revenue the government looses

Its not good for the budget

2e for 200km driving is not sustainable

They are going to lose a fortune.

EV charge at home motoring is too cheap

Everyone will be driving at those prices.

Limerick to Killarney for a euro, madness

Shefwedfan

thierry14 wrote: »

More that move to EV the more revenue the goverment looses

Its not good for the budget

2e for 200km driving is not sustainable

They are going to lose a fortune.

EV charge at home motoring is too cheap

Everyone will be driving at those prices.

Limerick to Killarney for a euro, madness

I don't really want the thread to descend into why the Government won't do anything. The question was options the Government could look at....not reasons why they wont

The above points are on every other thread about this.....

thierry14

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't really want the thread to descend into why the Government won't do anything. The question was options the Government could look at....not reasons why they wont

The above points are on every other thread about this.....

Why would they do anything?

Pointless thread

Do you like losing money?

Government run a business

1year Bik scandal is proof of that

They don't want people in EV's

Like all manufactures and oil companies

Shefwedfan

thierry14 wrote: »

Why would they do anything?

Pointless thread

Do you like losing money?

Government run a business

1year Bik scandal is proof of that

They don't want people in EV's

Like all manufactures and oil companies

If you can't post anything useful then maybe, just maybe, don't bother posting...

Orebro

thierry14 wrote: »

More that move to EV the more revenue the government looses

Its not good for the budget

2e for 200km driving is not sustainable

They are going to lose a fortune.

EV charge at home motoring is too cheap

Everyone will be driving at those prices.

Limerick to Killarney for a euro, madness

Think you’ve just written the perfect ad for EVs that the Gov should use, with just small modifications: :-)

2e for 200km driving

EV charge at home motoring is soo cheap

Everyone will be driving at those prices.

Limerick to Killarney for a euro, madness

Leprechaun77

I have recently considered an EV as we will be getting a new car soon. My observations, as an average Joe Soap, as a result of my initial research are that it is currently to much of an inconvenience to swap over.

The issues I see are the poor charging infrastructure and the lack of decent cars with any sort of range. I don't really need the hassle of planning how and where I charge the car....yes, I am lazy. I was in Blanchardstown a couple of days ago and there was a queue of cars waiting for the chargers...

I also think the technology is in its infancy, and that there will be so much more development over the next few years. In relation to the OP's initial question I think the government can help push the infrastructure side of things. I don't think they should incentivise the EV vehicle itself. When it becomes viable for the masses without all the hassle involved, the EV will be able to make its own case on a standalone basis without the need for grants....it is only a matter of time before it wins out on its own merits....Unfortunately I believe this will just take time before a realistic EV solution is developed.

Shutting down the park to all ICE vehicles would be the way to go but for Diesels is an excellent idea and would make a good start.

There are far too many old Diesels in Ireland, particularly commercials.

Irish people simply don't get electric cars, there's been 10 K off and free charging since 2011 and Diesel is still top choice. If Motor Tax and Fuel was key then you'd think Irish people would flock to EV but no chance in Ireland.

Perhaps when we reach that magic 300 Km range in 2019 and when there are more cars to choose.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Shutting down the park to all ICE vehicles would be the way to go but for Diesels is an excellent idea and would make a good start.

There are far too many old Diesels in Ireland, particularly commercials.

Irish people simply don't get electric cars, there's been 10 K off and free charging since 2011 and Diesel is still top choice. If Motor Tax and Fuel was key then you'd think Irish people would flock to EV but no chance in Ireland.

Perhaps when we reach that magic 300 Km range in 2019 and when there are more cars to choose.

Once it gets to 300km the majority of people as it stand will turn around and say they need 500km. We are a small country, majority of people do not need to travel long distances so no reason not to go EV

One thing I forgot to mention, the park is already closed down to commercial vehicles so why not to all vehicles bar electric? It would clean up the air in the park for families and also help to push electric cars to the commuter in Dublin who does not need diesel car...

From a government point of view it doesn't cost them a penny. Well apart from the few people buying electric v diesel.

Why not close it to all traffic ?. Cars take over too much in Dublin altogether. Why traffic needs to drive through a public park in the first place is beyond me.

The Government are not going to do anything to upset diesel drivers which probably accounts to 90% of Government drivers too. Instead, they'll just wait for manufacturers to stop producing diesels/ICE or some European legislation and then blame them instead. "They made us do it"

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not close it to all traffic ?. Cars take over too much in Dublin altogether. Why traffic needs to drive through a public park in the first place is beyond me.

The Government are not going to do anything to upset diesel drivers which probably accounts to 90% of Government drivers too. Instead, they'll just wait for manufacturers to stop producing diesels/ICE or some European legislation and then blame them instead. "They made us do it"

Well of course my preferred option would be no traffic and I would fully support that either.

But I can't see them fully stopping car's anytime soon no matter about how many times it is discussed. I lived beside the park for many years and every 2 years it was xyz saying they would stop traffic in park. Never happened.

I know on Xmas they closed the gates at Castleknock, I was told at the time it was to gauge how traffic would work, it was still mental but no difference, as soon as road works stopped it was open and park full again. Nothing happened.

Just is just a mid term option. Only electric cars and then when electric starts to become more popular just close it down altogether....

It would hit 2 requirements, remove majority of cars from the park and also push some users to electric cars...

Again this is just one options outside the standard "free chargers" that everyone is hung up on.....open to other outside idea's

Bus lanes, I regularly see empty bus lanes in Dublin, thought it was a bad idea before but can be a good idea on less busier routes that would guarantee change fast.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Bus lanes, I regularly see empty bus lanes in Dublin, thought it was a bad idea before but can be a good idea on less busier routes that would guarantee change fast.

Other option could be to let electric cars use them at specific times, but ban all normal cars out of them 24 x 7, 7 days a week.

IT is a good idea as easy to implement and no cost to government

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Other option could be to let electric cars use them at specific times, but ban all normal cars out of them 24 x 7, 7 days a week.

IT is a good idea as easy to implement and no cost to government

TDs like Eamon Ryan and DCC were completely against the idea of allowing EVs access to bus lanes. Then felt it would be difficult to police and encourage copycatting

The lev taskforce dropped it from their reccomendations

BoatMad

thierry14 wrote: »

Why would they do anything?

Pointless thread

Do you like losing money?

Government run a business

1year Bik scandal is proof of that

They don't want people in EV's

Like all manufactures and oil companies

Pointless thread ,no , pointless post , yes

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Probably a thread on this already but I thought I would start one after recent Budget. Most of the options people thought would come out have not really come and the growth of Electric cars will be restricted.

I am just thinking of low cost idea's on how to increase usage.

First one that come to mind this morning is Phoenix park, for years the discussion has been around shutting down the park to traffic. I was in it this morning and loads of people out running/kids out/people walking/etc

And of course full of big dirty diesel engines everywhere. Why not shut the park down to traffic apart from electric cars. It is a park after all and it should not be a car park Monday - Friday for traffic. It would cost government nothing. It would finally get the park closed to majority of traffic. Also they already have plans for buses etc to get people in/out of work.

So why not?

This is just one option to discuss. Just looking at other idea's outside the standard "Free charger" and "Free charging" because neither of them is working

I'm not sure what other " big " incentive you feel would make a difference

We went in with one set of incentives and we came out of the budget with all those and some additional ones.

peposhi

Education!
Huge amount of people do not understand how an EV works.
If education on pros and cons, maintenance costs and etc. is well spread throughout the country, there’d be very little need for more incentives than what currently is out there.

Free tolls and low cost loans to support purchasing an EV would be my best

BoatMad

peposhi wrote: »

Education!
Huge amount of people do not understand how an EV works.
If education on pros and cons, maintenance costs and etc. is well spread throughout the country, there’d be very little need for more incentives than what currently is out there.

Free tolls and low cost loans to support purchasing an EV would be my best

Naughton has promised an awareness campaign

Tolls , well personally , Ive argued it's a very selective incentive of limited scope primarily to a certain section of drivers. I know there was doubts expressed whether it was possible to subsidise private toll operators and some feedback that suggested encouraging more cars of any type on the M50'wasmt a great idea.

As for maintenance costs , certainly on a new car , like for like there's little reduction in such costs.

I don't think discounted loans and purchase incentives are sustainable. One or the other would be preferable. The gov has no means of subsidising loans anyway.

isnottheword

Investment in the network and a couple of cents year-on-year on diesel is all thats needed.

BoatMad

isnottheword wrote: »

Investment in the network and a couple of cents year-on-year on diesel is all thats needed.

I think until we have more model options , penalising diesel isn't really a runner. The time for the carrot is now, the stick can come later

There is 10 million or so set aside n this years departmental budget for investment in the fast charger network. That's a first and a start.

isnottheword

I was thinking in terms of modest but incremental increases so as to leave it clear in the public mindset as regards what the future direction and policy will be. However I take your point ref. models and of course people need tangible proof of the integrity and depth of the charging infrastructure.

BoatMad

isnottheword wrote: »

I was thinking in terms of modest but incremental increases so as to leave it clear in the public mindset as regards what the future direction and policy will be. However I take your point ref. models and of course people need tangible proof of the integrity and depth of the charging infrastructure.

The LEV task force has taken on clearly , the need that investment is needed in fast charger parks along major transport arteries and that's what the minister outlined.

I think ( I hope ) this will lead to further annual investment and an accelerating conversion to EVs

this will not be fast in my view , it will take years

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

There is 10 million or so set aside n this years departmental budget for investment in the fast charger network. That's a first and a start.

His budget speech said a doubling of investment from €5m to €10m but presumably the existing €5m is for the existing incentives (VRT, SEAI grant etc) and so the other €5m is what we don't yet know about.

I strongly suspect that eCars have told the govt that they need to stump up for maintenance of the network and some additional new chargers. The entire €10m isn't for new chargers thats for sure.

eCars OpEx on the network is a few million so it remains to be seen exactly how much of that extra €5m is for new rapid chargers.

Shefwedfan

BoatMad wrote: »

I'm not sure what other " big " incentive you feel would make a difference

We went in with one set of incentives and we came out of the budget with all those and some additional ones.

Sorry I would prefer this not get into a advertising campaign for IEVOA. Lets just say the budget was a massive let down for electric cars. As even the IEVOA posted and said, trying to make out it's a big win now is pointless


Did I mention "big", I am looking for option the government can easily implement which doesn't cost huge money......asking the government to throw money at electric cars is not working so what other options are available. Everything I see here is about "free charger" and "free charging" which both are not working and never will if you ask me......

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Lets just say the budget was a massive let down for electric cars.

A doubling of the EV budget can't be characterised as a massive let down particularly since there are already significant incentives in place.

We should all wait for the breakdown of the €10m before we declare it a massive let down. There are more details to be given out. It doesn't all happen on budget day.... thats usually just for the soundbites. We need the fine detail now.

And to be clear... Im not an IEVOA member.

nilescraneo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Bus lanes, I regularly see empty bus lanes in Dublin, thought it was a bad idea before but can be a good idea on less busier routes that would guarantee change fast.

Are you actually serious? why should single occupant vehicles get the same priority as busses carrying up to 90/100 passengers? even on 'less busy routes' as you suggest, they still carry far more people than cars.

Bus lanes are already badly enforced, if your proposal happened, we may as well give up on the concept of bus lanes entirely as every motorist would be chancing their arm using them. Giving over even more road space to private vehicles is not the way to go.

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

A doubling of the EV budget can't be characterised as a massive let down particularly since there are already significant incentives in place.

We should all wait for the breakdown of the €10m before we declare it a massive let down. There are more details to be given out. It doesn't all happen on budget day.... thats usually just for the soundbites. We need the fine detail now.

And to be clear... Im not an IEVOA member.

I will just refer to comments on IEVOA "express our disappointment at yet another wasted opportunity to increase the EV uptake in Ireland"

I would prefer to agree on some options and bring them to government. A lot of the current discussion are around free this and free that.....so the government will not take electric cars serious.......

Options that don't cost government, increase uptake of electric cars and make sense to general public so there is not up roar......

I have seen mention before about putting a tax on oil. That is a stupid idea, it will mean old people can't heat there house, shipping costs go up so a loaf of bread costs more and so people starve.....

I would hope with all the highly intelligent people on this forum we could come up with a few idea's which could be useful. If the IEVOA want to copy them then off they go, I don't care as the end result is a cleaner planet.

E.g. why has nobody gone to Old age people groups and put a bundle together so they can buy an electric car with the cheaper electricity and allow them to swap out there current car? It would help keep older people in connection with the community and also remove petrol/diesel cars off road....

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I will just refer to comments on IEVOA "express our disappointment at yet another wasted opportunity to increase the EV uptake in Ireland"

I would prefer to agree on some options and bring them to government. A lot of the current discussion are around free this and free that.....so the government will not take electric cars serious.......

Options that don't cost government, increase uptake of electric cars and make sense to general public so there is not up roar......

I have seen mention before about putting a tax on oil. That is a stupid idea, it will mean old people can't heat there house, shipping costs go up so a loaf of bread costs more and so people starve.....

I would hope with all the highly intelligent people on this forum we could come up with a few idea's which could be useful. If the IEVOA want to copy them then off they go, I don't care as the end result is a cleaner planet.

E.g. why has nobody gone to Old age people groups and put a bundle together so they can buy an electric car with the cheaper electricity and allow them to swap out there current car? It would help keep older people in connection with the community and also remove petrol/diesel cars off road....

I took your comment of "massive let down" as being your personal opinion?
Im saying anyone that considers it a massive let down is premature in that opinion as we don't know all the details yet.

I'm all for coming up with additional incentives.

The already announced public advertising campaign is going to be important to dispel the myths, imo. People need to be encouraged to check their daily mileage to see if they are suitable for todays EV's. If they saw the figures they might be more inclined to consider them. Maybe a dedicated website with mileage trackers, FAQ's around charge points and suitable cars etc would be a good low cost idea.

The minister has also announced public show days where you can go and drive a range of different EV's. I think thats a good idea. Its all about getting it in front of people and making them aware as there are too many people still just don't know anything about EV's so social media etc is important.

After that the choice and range of cars is going to be the biggest thing to move things forward and unfortunately we don't have control over that.

I don't agree with giving EV's access to bus lanes.

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sorry I would prefer this not get into a advertising campaign for IEVOA. Lets just say the budget was a massive let down for electric cars. As even the IEVOA posted and said, trying to make out it's a big win now is pointless


Did I mention "big", I am looking for option the government can easily implement which doesn't cost huge money......asking the government to throw money at electric cars is not working so what other options are available. Everything I see here is about "free charger" and "free charging" which both are not working and never will if you ask me......

I find your view perplexing, certainly the budget was underwhelming , but "massive let down " is way over the top, Given all the incentives we have , just what do you seriously expect

and this

. Everything I see here is about "free charger" and "free charging" which both are not working and never will if you ask me......[/

I wonder what the uptake would be without them , probably even worse, so you conclusion simply isn't a testable hypothesis

BoatMad

I would prefer to agree on some options and bring them to government. A lot of the current discussion are around free this and free that.....so the government will not take electric cars serious.......

The government task force is actually body who came up with the recommendations for "free" this and that

I would prefer to agree on some options

rather then you waffling on , why don't
you actually suggest some and we can debate their merits

BoatMad

E.g. why has nobody gone to Old age people groups and put a bundle together so they can buy an electric car with the cheaper electricity and allow them to swap out there current car? It would help keep older people in connection with the community and also remove petrol/diesel cars off road....

whose the "nobody"

and "bundle ", what cash, sweets , bingo cards

Shefwedfan

BoatMad wrote: »

whose the "nobody"

and "bundle ", what cash, sweets , bingo cards

The "nobody" could be anyone....Nissan/Renault/Old Age Groups/Dept of Social Protection etc

Bundle is a term....I can buy you a dictionary if you want?

Nissan at the moment are trying to move old 24KW Leaf's, so why not approach Dept of Social Protection, put something together so they can sell off old 24KW at XYZ price and have the Dept advertise to people of certain age as they get some costs towards electricity paid for.....

if a new car then person will get charger installed as well.....

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The "nobody" could be anyone....Nissan/Renault/Old Age Groups/Dept of Social Protection etc

Bundle is a term....I can buy you a dictionary if you want?

Nissan at the moment are trying to move old 24KW Leaf's, so why not approach Dept of Social Protection, put something together so they can sell off old 24KW at XYZ price and have the Dept advertise to people of certain age as they get some costs towards electricity paid for.....

if a new car then person will get charger installed as well.....

To answer your suggestion would require some surveys. I'm not sure how you'd structure the benefit and whether there would be any takeup.

It's an idea ! , not sure of its effectiveness or ease of implementation ( or the gov subsiding purchases even more etc )


Personally I think we are close to an incentive limit. I think penetration will come in time ,especially if running costs remain low and the variety of EVs expands ( that's the main current drawback )

mirrorwall14

The ability to have a home charger installed that is not running off your own electricity line is needed. Our designated parking space is across the road, as is everyone elses. No one is going to dig up a bloody road to run a charger over due to cost, therefore no one will use electric.

We have a space outside the house at a kerb but thats not our own space so we would be loath to try and install there either without planning permission for the post itself and permission of management company etc.

Its just too much hassle. If a pillar power point could be installed at a parking space, a reasonable price without needing to run it back to the the meter it would increase uptake in my opinion. And if that information was easily available it would help a lot. Running around via google and phone calls to try and figure out if its possible has people put off before they even start

Shefwedfan

BoatMad wrote: »

I find your view perplexing, certainly the budget was underwhelming , but "massive let down " is way over the top, Given all the incentives we have , just what do you seriously expect

and this

I wonder what the uptake would be without them , probably even worse, so you conclusion simply isn't a testable hypothesis

I dont mind what you find my views....

Remind me how many electric cars are on the road with free charge point and free charging?

The majority of cars are bought second hand and don't get free charge point. The free charging is useless to a lot of people like myself because the system is a joke. Too unreliable

A proper paid system would attract more users as the cost of "fuel" is cheaper. Very few people are aware the system for charging is free, everyone is aware that it is not up to standard

BoatMad wrote: »

The government task force is actually body who came up with the recommendations for "free" this and that


rather then you waffling on , why don't
you actually suggest some and we can debate their merits

I have made more suggestions than you have come up with......

At the moment I haven't seen much debating, have you?

Shefwedfan

BoatMad wrote: »

To answer your suggestion would require some surveys. I'm not sure how you'd structure the benefit and whether there would be any takeup.

It's an idea ! , not sure of its effectiveness or ease of implementation ( or the gov subsiding purchases even more etc )


Personally I think we are close to an incentive limit. I think penetration will come in time ,especially if running costs remain low and the variety of EVs expands ( that's the main current drawback )

Why would gov need to subside? they are selling off Leaf at 20k. Very ageist to suggest people at 70 can't afford to buy a 20k car.

I'm sure Nissan are still making a nice profit at 20k, the good publicity alone with putting a program like this together could help Nissan lower the price

*I am not saying these are ready to go to Government with or anything....they are idea's.....which is point of thread

Shefwedfan

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The ability to have a home charger installed that is not running off your own electricity line is needed. Our designated parking space is across the road, as is everyone elses. No one is going to dig up a bloody road to run a charger over due to cost, therefore no one will use electric.

We have a space outside the house at a kerb but thats not our own space so we would be loath to try and install there either without planning permission for the post itself and permission of management company etc.

Its just too much hassle. If a pillar power point could be installed at a parking space, a reasonable price without needing to run it back to the the meter it would increase uptake in my opinion. And if that information was easily available it would help a lot. Running around via google and phone calls to try and figure out if its possible has people put off before they even start

As mentioned, a proper paid system will work for everyone. If you know that you can go to location and pay a set fee to get charged then no issue.

A proper company will have fast chargers available and off you go. So 20 mins later you are ready to go....people can plan around that.

mirrorwall14

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As mentioned, a proper paid system will work for everyone. If you know that you can go to location and pay a set fee to get charged then no issue.

A proper company will have fast chargers available and off you go. So 20 mins later you are ready to go....people can plan around that.

I (and my guess is my guess is many more too) will not buy an electric car in the hope that no one will be plugged into the local charger. Unless its literally run like a petrol station where you have to move the minute you are finished I'm not buying an electric without a home charger

mirrorwall14

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I (and my guess is my guess is many more too) will not buy an electric car in the hope that no one will be plugged into the local charger. Unless its literally run like a petrol station where you have to move the minute you are finished I'm not buying an electric without a home charger

You're not alone there, my Brother decided to buy a diesel again for Dublin driving of about maybe 10 Kms round trip all because it's too complicated to install a charge point at his apartment, installing the point wasn't a problem but a solution to billing for kwh used was.

Shefwedfan

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I (and my guess is my guess is many more too) will not buy an electric car in the hope that no one will be plugged into the local charger. Unless its literally run like a petrol station where you have to move the minute you are finished I'm not buying an electric without a home charger

I know people who are building an estate at the moment.....they are only getting planning for Duplex housing, so apartment on bottom and two-story house on top. The county council does not want standard houses built anymore. They also restrict the amount of parking

So more and more people are going to have issues with not having a home charger.

Free chargers has resulted in limited market penetration. The initial 2,000 free of charge wasn't even used up I don't think. Free charging has just resulted in a poor network which is too unreliable to use.....