Pedestrians & cyclists taking stupid risks

Coming into the short, dark evenings and bad weather, why do some pedestrians and cyclists take such utterly incomprehensible risks on the road? People in vehicles obviously are a bigger threat to pedestrians than they are to them. Therefore, the onus is on pedestrians/cyclists to have most caution. Whatever the legality may be about particular situations, pedestrians and cyclists will physically suffer most when interacting with vehicles. That reality is the most important one.

Last night it was filthy wet and dark with the wipers on incessantly, and plenty of road traffic. Windows steaming up affecting visibility etc. Then, out of nowhere a group of pedestrians wearing ordinary dark black/navy/grey clothes decided to jaywalk across the road as I was just about to move up in the traffic. Out of nowhere they were right in front of my car in the middle of the road. I could easily have hit them. Easily. Yes, I get that they obviously wanted to get out of the rain and over to that pub asap but whatever about jaywalking in broad daylight, doing so in these dark wet autumn/winter nights is painfully naive at best.

Never, ever assume a driver is paying attention to everything around him. Any driver will tell you that. They make mistakes, they are distracted by various things (especially in these days of various electronic gadgets) and most of all they can cause much more harm to you than you can to them. I wouldn't mind the massive car insurance premium hike for a few years if I were involved in an accident (fortunately, I've never been involved in one); money comes and goes. I would, however, not want to be responsible for harming anybody else or their family. The driver's risk is only losing money; the careless pedestrian/cyclist risks their health and life. Stop taking stupid risks with your lives on the road please.

longshanks

Ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?

seamus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

People in vehicles obviously are a bigger threat to pedestrians than they are to them. Therefore, the onus is on pedestrians/cyclists to have most caution.

*Brrt*
Wrong.

That's like saying the guy with a gun is a bigger threat so the onus is on the guy without a gun to be more cautious around him.

The bigger the vehicle, the more responsibility you have to be careful, and the more blame you should take and more severely you should be punished for making a mistake.

twinsen

Deleted User wrote: »

Last night it was filthy wet and dark with the wipers on incessantly, and plenty of road traffic. Windows steaming up affecting visibility etc.

If you have a steam on your windows and can't see, it is a very good sign telling you to stop the car. Why would you risk someone lives because You can't see?

ThisRegard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

......People in vehicles obviously are a bigger threat to pedestrians than they are to them. Therefore, the onus is on pedestrians/cyclists to have most caution. .......
Windows steaming up affecting visibility etc. ...
Then, out of nowhere a group of pedestrians ...... Out of nowhere .......

Stop taking stupid risks with your lives on the road please.

Eh, yeeaaaahhh, ok then.

Magically appearing people, unable to use your car properly but others are the ones taking the risk.

Maybe you should look closer to home for the problem, or driving just isn't for you.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

*Brrt*
Wrong.

That's like saying the guy with a gun is a bigger threat so the onus is on the guy without a gun to be more cautious around him.

The bigger the vehicle, the more responsibility you have to be careful, and the more blame you should take and more severely you should be punished for making a mistake.

Blame is incidental if the pedestrian is the one most likely to be injured. It is their life, but the driver's finances or whatever. No comparison.

And the guy with the bigger gun is of course the bigger threat and people with smaller guns tend to give due deference as a result. It doesn't have to be right, but it is reality.

ThisRegard

ThisRegard wrote: »

Eh, yeeaaaahhh, ok then.

Magically appearing people, unable to use your car properly but others are the ones taking the risk.

Well, they are jaywalking across the middle of a busy road on a wet dark night wearing barely visible clothes. So, yes, it isn't the brightest thing to do (and
it's illegal, if you want to get into that).

Muahahaha

Deleted User wrote: »

Therefore, the onus is on pedestrians/cyclists to have most caution.

Everyone has an onus to have caution. But if you are driving a two tonne box of metal you have more onus than most.

Out of nowhere they were right in front of my car in the middle of the road. I could easily have hit them. Easily.

It is beyond the laws of physics for somebody to "come out of nowhere". Perhaps you should have more awareness of your surrounds? Because people do not come out of nowhere and if you think they do all it means is that you were not a good enough driver to see them before you nearly knocked them over

Never, ever assume a driver is paying attention to everything around him. Any driver will tell you that. They make mistakes, they are distracted by various things (especially in these days of various electronic gadgets) and most of all they can cause much more harm to you than you can to them. .

Now it sounds like you are an apologist for people texting when using their phones. If someone knocks another over when texting behind the wheel there should be special sentences for such selfish behaviour.

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

ThisRegard wrote: »

Eh, yeeaaaahhh, ok then.

Magically appearing people, unable to use your car properly but others are the ones taking the risk.

Well, they are jaywalking across the middle of a busy road on a wet dark night wearing barely visible clothes. So, yes, it isn't the brightest thing to do (and
it's illegal, if you want to get into that).

Jaywalking isn’t illegal in ireland

rizzodun

But but but, hi vis! road tax! entitlement! etc. etc.

Rinse and repeat.

Danbo!

This argument will never end.

When I drive to work, I get passed by hundreds of bikes and therefore see a lot of people on bikes doing silly things like not signalling or breaking lights.

When I cycle to work, I pass hundreds of cars and therefore see a lot of people in cars doing silly things like not signalling or breaking lights.

When I walk, I see both.

Basically there’s idiots in every group. Cyclists just see more cars than cyclists and drivers see more cyclists than other cars so will always have an issue with the other group.

ThisRegard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, they are jaywalking across the middle of a busy road on a wet dark night wearing barely visible clothes. So, yes, it isn't the brightest thing to do (and
it's illegal, if you want to get into that).

And you're driving a car without knowing how to use it properly.

MadDog76

seamus wrote: »

*Brrt*
Wrong.

That's like saying the guy with a gun is a bigger threat so the onus is on the guy without a gun to be more cautious around him.

The bigger the vehicle, the more responsibility you have to be careful, and the more blame you should take and more severely you should be punished for making a mistake.

If I was facing a guy with a gun whilst unarmed myself then I would be very cautious around him ......... obviously.

MadDog76

Muahahaha wrote: »

Everyone has an onus to have caution. But if you are driving a two tonne box of metal you have more onus than most.



It is beyond the laws of physics for somebody to "come out of nowhere". Perhaps you should have more awareness of your surrounds? Because people do not come out of nowhere and if you think they do all it means is that you were not a good enough driver to see them before you nearly knocked them over


Now it sounds like you are an apologist for people texting when using their phones. If someone knocks another over when texting behind the wheel there should be special sentences for such selfish behaviour.

Danbo! wrote: »

This argument will never end.

When I drive to work, I get passed by hundreds of bikes and therefore see a lot of people on bikes doing silly things like not signalling or breaking lights.

When I cycle to work, I pass hundreds of cars and therefore see a lot of people in cars doing silly things like not signalling or breaking lights.

When I walk, I see both.

Basically there’s idiots in every group. Cyclists just see more cars than cyclists and drivers see more cyclists than other cars so will always have an issue with the other group.

I think you're missing the op's point ......... it's not about right/wrong and who's the blame etc., the point is if/when an accident occurs involving a vehicle and a pedestrian/cyclist then it's the pedestrian/cyclist who will be worse off regardless of who's "fault" it is ......... some pedestrians/cyclists seem oblivious to this fact judging by their behaviour when interacting with vehicles on the road.

Canis Lupus

MadDog76 wrote: »

I think you're missing the op's point ......... it's not about right/wrong and who's the blame etc., the point is if/when an accident occurs involving a vehicle and a pedestrian/cyclist then it's the pedestrian/cyclist who will be worse off regardless of who's "fault" it is ......... some pedestrians/cyclists seem oblivious to this fact judging by their behaviour when interacting with vehicles on the road.

It's a fair point. You see it from time to time when people put themselves into stupid positions because they had 'right of way' etc. As if being 'right' will make your bones heal faster when you get f*cked up.

I drive, ride a motorbike and a bicycle and occasionally grudgingly walk from time to time. I treat everyone like idiots and never try and assume that other road users will do what I expect.

spurious

I live on a small street off a major road. There is a pedestrian lights and a yellow box at the junction. I have lost count of the number of lunatics who fly through the red lights as I have the right of way to access the main road. Add to them the nuts that don't bother with the road at all but fly along the footpath and eff pedestrians out of it.

Was waiting for the lights to change the other day when one of the footpath brigade realised he was going too fast to stop, swerved out onto the road just as a bus passed and attempted a shoulder tackle on it. I would say a change of underwear was involved. Perhaps he will have learned a lesson.

entropi

Any cyclists who want to go along the path whilst I'm walking the opposite direction usually decide to move back to the road where they belong, as I won't back down from their game of chicken. They're in the wrong, and don't belong on the path. Stick to the cycle lane, don't be a dick.

Fighting Tao

I think the title is extremely misleading. From reading the op it should be “Fuaranach taking stupid risks while driving”.

Fighting Tao

entropi wrote: »

Any cyclists who want to go along the path whilst I'm walking the opposite direction usually decide to move back to the road where they belong, as I won't back down from their game of chicken. They're in the wrong, and don't belong on the path. Stick to the cycle lane, don't be a dick.

“Nice to meet you sir” said the 5 year old child on his bicycle.

whoopsadoodles

Fighting Tao wrote: »

“Nice to meet you sir” said the 5 year old child on his bicycle.

Yeh I'm sure that's what he meant.

I had a cyclist almost plough into the left hand side of my car the other day. As I was crawling out of the street my mother lives on, that wanker came flying off the path on my left hand side, swerving to miss me and then hopping straight back on the path on my right and booting on up the road.

I don't entirely disagree with the OP's sentiment about cyclists and pedestrians taking extra care. I just think his opening argument on the subject was abysmal.

mikemac2

100% of road users believe they have above average skills

wexandproud

cyclists , pedestrians and motorists all make mistakes and i'm sure their are good and bad in all 3 groups .
However driving when you can't see out through a fogged up window proves you cant use the 'settings' in the car and it would not be classed as a mistake . More in the line of stupidity

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Karangue

When the clocks go back they will have to close the roads by night.

andekwarhola

And the Cyclist Reaction Force congratulate themselves having successfully tripped the complainant up on points of order and move onwards to find other online crime scenes at which to be triggered.

meeeeh

All road users are perfectly capable of stupid behaviour and I've done mistakes as a cyclist, pedestrian and driver. Tere is a difference between a mistake and international recklessness. Expecting people to be perfect and see everything is stupid and dangerous. I had running moron wearing dark clothing jump in front of me when running in the dark. She crossed the road just outside roundabout where there was no pedestrian crossing. I saw her in time and baked but she put in danger herself and myself because there could be another car in roundabout reasonably expecting me to exit it as I indicated.

On similar subject I really don't know why it is not mandatory to have lights on during the day on a car.

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

elperello

meeeeh wrote: »

All road users are perfectly capable of stupid behaviour and I've done mistakes as a cyclist, pedestrian and driver. Tere is a difference between a mistake and international recklessness. Expecting people to be perfect and see everything is stupid and dangerous. I had running moron wearing dark clothing jump in front of me when running in the dark. She crossed the road just outside roundabout where there was no pedestrian crossing. I saw her in time and baked but she put in danger herself and myself because there could be another car in roundabout reasonably expecting me to exit it as I indicated.

On similar subject I really don't know why it is not mandatory to have lights on during the day on a car.

Good point re. lights.
I've seen ads on TV in USA saying wipers on lights on,
RSA should run similar here.

meeeeh

FizzleSticks wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think penalties for texting or using phone while driving should be the same as drink driving. It's very hard to police it but extremely reckless and malicious thing to do.

Loads of behaviour on roads annoys the hell out of me.

suicide_circus

That's some victim blaming your pulling there, OP.

Very reminiscent of the late Dr Paisley.

archer22

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I never heard a cyclist state that cars shouldn't be on the roads...but I am sick and tired of car drivers who say cyclists shouldn't be on the roads.
So I think it's a lot of car drivers who think cyclists should sit in their houses and never use the roads.

A bit ironic when you consider most of the roads in Ireland were never made for cars...but even so everybody has a right to use them as they are PUBLIC highways.

wexandproud

andekwarhola wrote: »

And the Cyclist Reaction Force congratulate themselves having successfully tripped the complainant up on points of order and move onwards to find other online crime scenes at which to be triggered.

im a cyclists and motorist and have made plenty of mistakes at both , but what do you expect when you get someone pointing the finger at someone and at the same time doing something plain stupid himself . Driving when you cant see clearly through the windscreen is not a mistake , or a ''point of order '' its downright stupid and dangerous

archer22

One thing that annoys me in Ireland is that most drivers do not know what their hooters are for....majority think they are for saluting their friends or for fighting with other road users.

They are in fact a safety feature for alerting other road users of your presence.

I lived in SE Asia for a while and the way they use hooters is quite smart...for example they will never overtake without giving two short beeps to alert the person in front that they are being overtaken...same when they see dozy pedestrians about to enter the road.
Hell they even use it to alert Dogs that are about to cross the road...amusing to see the Dog automatically step back on the pavement without a second thought .

cbyrd

Iirc, there's no jaywalking law in Ireland, but the way it goes is this.. the pedestrian doesn't have the right to just walk across the road in front of traffic, even at a pedestrian crossing, they must wait for traffic to stop and allow them cross, But once they step onto the road they have the right of way regardless.
I always love the people who think I'm driving a rubber car or that it wont hurt cos they're in a pack. Stupid pedestrians.

I've also been midway across a pedestrian crossing with my 2 year old and get beeped at by someone who had to jam on his brakes. Stupid drivers

As my dad used to say, no one sets out on their journey to kill or be killed, and you can be the best driver in the world but you never know what the other guy is going to do.
No point in being right and dead.

I very much agree that poor visibility and dark clothing, even in towns, can be very dangerous. So everyone should keep their wits about them. Pedestrian driver and cyclist.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

*Brrt*
Wrong.

That's like saying the guy with a gun is a bigger threat so the onus is on the guy without a gun to be more cautious around him.

The bigger the vehicle, the more responsibility you have to be careful, and the more blame you should take and more severely you should be punished for making a mistake.

Totally disagree, this is the type of advice that makes pedestrians and cyclists think they can do what they want. The onus is on a driver to do his best to avoid accidents but there is a large onus on pedestrians and cyclists not to put themselves in danger.

It's impossible for a driver to avoid everything and it's not always a drivers fault when an incident occurs between a driver and a pedestrian/cyclist in fact it's very often not the drivers fault.

Muahahaha wrote: »

It is beyond the laws of physics for somebody to "come out of nowhere". Perhaps you should have more awareness of your surrounds? Because people do not come out of nowhere and if you think they do all it means is that you were not a good enough driver to see them before you nearly knocked them over

You can't be serious? Of course it all possible for a person to come out of nowhere. This nonsense of a "driver always has to be able to stop" really needs to be thrown in the bin. It's physically impossible for a driver to always be abe to stop, blame very much can be given to pedestrians and cyclists.

Billy86

Pedestrians and cyclists can be, but so can drivers - I doubt I'm alone in having been very close to getting hit by cars a number of times down the years that decided to rocket through a red light when the little green man is there for pedestrians.

diomed

Deleted User wrote: »

Never, ever assume a driver is paying attention to everything around him. Any driver will tell you that.
They make mistakes, they are distracted by various things (especially in these days of various electronic gadgets) and most of all they can cause much more harm to you than you can to them.

Why do you talk about cyclists and pedestrians taking stupid risks?
From your post it I assume you drive without care and attention.

etselbbuns

Force everyone to drive and buy vehicle at 18.
Clog up the roads all day every day.
Just to keep OP happy.

Ray Palmer

entropi wrote: »

Any cyclists who want to go along the path whilst I'm walking the opposite direction usually decide to move back to the road where they belong, as I won't back down from their game of chicken. They're in the wrong, and don't belong on the path. Stick to the cycle lane, don't be a dick.

What do you say or do if a pedestrian is in a cycle lane? Happens daily to me should I just ignore them because I am in the right.

At one point there was a guy who would do this everyday and scream abuse at cyclists who asked him to get out of the cycle lane. After a few months of this I eventually saw a cyclist punch him a few times and then he stayed out of the cycle lane. He didn't deserve it for walking in the cycle lane but he did deserve it for threatening people. It was inevitable that it would become physical

Muahahaha

Kora Chilly Spoon wrote: »

You can't be serious? Of course it all possible for a person to come out of nowhere. This nonsense of a "driver always has to be able to stop" really needs to be thrown in the bin. It's physically impossible for a driver to always be abe to stop, blame very much can be given to pedestrians and cyclists.

Unless you have made a new discovery in the laws of physics it is certainly impossible for a person to come out of nowhere. Maybe you might show us this black hole where people are coming out of nowhere?

_Kaiser_

Ah the usual response to a reasonable OP... "it's not my responsibility to have some cop on and not be walking out randomly in front of traffic in my dark clothes at night" :rolleyes:

Yes the driver should be aware of such muppets, but when did the notion of personal responsibility and cop on become bad things??

amcalester

MadDog76 wrote: »

If I was facing a guy with a gun whilst unarmed myself then I would be very cautious around him ......... obviously.

But if that guy shot you it would hardly be your fault for not being cautious enough.

Rezident

Deleted User wrote: »

Coming into the short, dark evenings and bad weather, why do some pedestrians and cyclists take such utterly incomprehensible risks on the road? People in vehicles obviously are a bigger threat to pedestrians than they are to them. Therefore, the onus is on pedestrians/cyclists to have most caution. Whatever the legality may be about particular situations, pedestrians and cyclists will physically suffer most when interacting with vehicles. That reality is the most important one.

Last night it was filthy wet and dark with the wipers on incessantly, and plenty of road traffic. Windows steaming up affecting visibility etc. Then, out of nowhere a group of pedestrians wearing ordinary dark black/navy/grey clothes decided to jaywalk across the road as I was just about to move up in the traffic. Out of nowhere they were right in front of my car in the middle of the road. I could easily have hit them. Easily. Yes, I get that they obviously wanted to get out of the rain and over to that pub asap but whatever about jaywalking in broad daylight, doing so in these dark wet autumn/winter nights is painfully naive at best.

Never, ever assume a driver is paying attention to everything around him. Any driver will tell you that. They make mistakes, they are distracted by various things (especially in these days of various electronic gadgets) and most of all they can cause much more harm to you than you can to them. I wouldn't mind the massive car insurance premium hike for a few years if I were involved in an accident (fortunately, I've never been involved in one); money comes and goes. I would, however, not want to be responsible for harming anybody else or their family. The driver's risk is only losing money; the careless pedestrian/cyclist risks their health and life. Stop taking stupid risks with your lives on the road please.

No the higher duty of care is - obviously - on the person driving the ton or 2 tonnes of metal that can kill people. Vehicles are so dangerous that terrorists use them now instead of guns and bombs for killing lots of people.

Absolutely amazed that someone with your utterly and self-evidently wrong perspective is driving around in a machine that can kill people!

Arsemageddon

Rezident wrote: »

No the higher duty of care is - obviously - on the person driving the ton or 2 tonnes of metal that can kill people. Vehicles are so dangerous that terrorists use them now instead of guns and bombs for killing lots of people.

Absolutely amazed that someone with your utterly and self-evidently wrong perspective is driving around in a machine that can kill people!

A tad hysterical methinks.

andekwarhola

Rezident wrote: »

No the higher duty of care is - obviously - on the person driving the ton or 2 tonnes of metal that can kill people. Vehicles are so dangerous that terrorists use them now instead of guns and bombs for killing lots of people.

Absolutely amazed that someone with your utterly and self-evidently wrong perspective is driving around in a machine that can kill people!

Translation: personal responsibility is just for those bastards not on two wheels.

mikhail

seamus wrote: »

*Brrt*
Wrong.

Why is it that people can't have a normal discussion? Would you do that to someone's face? Would that make you an asshole? I imagine I could get carded for that question, but it's so unnecessarily nasty that I have to call you out on it.

That's like saying the guy with a gun is a bigger threat so the onus is on the guy without a gun to be more cautious around him.

Yes, there's a major onus on a gun owner not to shoot someone by mistake (or indeed deliberately, for the most part). That doesn't mean you should skip around a firing range in poor visibility while wearing dark clothes.

The OP is wrong to say vulnerable road users should have the "most caution", but he's right that they shouldn't be reckless.

The days of human drivers appear to be numbered, and while road deaths will diminish as a result, there will still be fools who manage to get themselves killed.

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

Unless you have made a new discovery in the laws of physics it is certainly impossible for a person to come out of nowhere. Maybe you might show us this black hole where people are coming out of nowhere?

You know full well what "out of nowhere means", you are just talking rubbish with your laws of physics comments.

It is very possible for a pedestrian or cyclist to appear in front of you in a situation where it would be impossible for you to see them until they are there and nothing that you could do to have prepared for it.

I can't believe people are trying totally absolve pedestrians and cyclists of any possible blame and essentially tell them "do what ever you want when ever you want as it's never going to be your fault". This is the message you and some other posters are trying to deliver and it's idiotic and dangerous.

amcalester wrote: »

But if that guy shot you it would hardly be your fault for not being cautious enough.

It was a very poor analogy to use.

A much better example would be if a person sneaks into an army shooting range and somehow gets himself between the shooters and the target while ammo is being fired and gets shot then who's fault is it? Obviously 100% the persons own fault and no blame whatsoever could be given to the shooter.

amcalester

Kora Chilly Spoon wrote: »

You know full well what "out of nowhere means", you are just talking rubbish with your laws of physics comments.

It is very possible for a pedestrian or cyclist to appear in front of you in a situation where it would be impossible for you to see them until they are there and nothing that you could do to have prepared for it.

I can't believe people are trying totally absolve pedestrians and cyclists of any possible blame and essentially tell them "do what ever you want when ever you want as it's never going to be your fault". This is the message you and some other posters are trying to deliver and it's idiotic and dangerous.



It was a very poor analogy to use.

A much better example would be if a person sneaks into an army shooting range and somehow gets himself between the shooters and the target while ammo is being fired and gets shot then who's fault is it? Obviously 100% the persons own fault and no blame whatsoever could be given to the shooter.

It was, but yours isn't much better.

Motorists, pedestrians and cyclists all share roughly the same space so the bigger duty of care is always with the motorist.

Continuing your analogy it would be like there was a pathway across the gun range and the shooter fired off a few shots without checking for people on the path.

Of course, that's just poor planning no one would build a path through a firing range but we do expect pedestrians and cyclists to share road space with motorists (with the exception of motorways and a few other exceptions) so the bigger onus is on the motorist to take care.

the_pen_turner

amcalester wrote: »

Kora Chilly Spoon wrote: »

You know full well what "out of nowhere means", you are just talking rubbish with your laws of physics comments.

It is very possible for a pedestrian or cyclist to appear in front of you in a situation where it would be impossible for you to see them until they are there and nothing that you could do to have prepared for it.

I can't believe people are trying totally absolve pedestrians and cyclists of any possible blame and essentially tell them "do what ever you want when ever you want as it's never going to be your fault". This is the message you and some other posters are trying to deliver and it's idiotic and dangerous.



It was a very poor analogy to use.

A much better example would be if a person sneaks into an army shooting range and somehow gets himself between the shooters and the target while ammo is being fired and gets shot then who's fault is it? Obviously 100% the persons own fault and no blame whatsoever could be given to the shooter.

It was, but yours isn't much better.

Motorists, pedestrians and cyclists all share roughly the same space so the bigger duty of care is always with the motorist.

Continuing your analogy it would be like there was a pathway across the gun range and the shooter fired off a few shots without checking for people on the path.

Of course, that's just poor planning no one would build a path through a firing range but we do expect pedestrians and cyclists to share road space with motorists (with the exception of motorways and a few other exceptions) so the bigger onus is on the motorist to take care.

Stupid analogy. It would be like a path running along side the range on both sides and the pedestrian went across from one side to the other.

There are stupid people on all sides. But the motorist is usually found at fault . The pedestrian s and cyclists are often at fault too

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Deleted User wrote: »

The driver's risk is only losing money; the careless pedestrian/cyclist risks their health and life. Stop taking stupid risks with your lives on the road please.

Your post is loaded with presumptions. How you write it is really odd. Although you say visibility is limited, and that electronic devices distract drivers. You somehow twist the story and make the inattentive out to be the victims, while pedestrians and cyclists are careless? Where's the logic in that?

The drivers risk is also going to jail. It's not just monetary.

meeeeh

And pedestrian's risk is being scrapped of the road in 50 pieces. If some want to rely just on drivers being completely attentive all the time fine. I think they give Darwin awards for that.