Male teachers in primary schools

edireland

Now that I'm retired I started to pick up my grandchild for school.
No male teachers to be seen is this a policy decision by the Education Department ? .

amcalester

No, just very few males entering the profession.

daheff

I think its more that male teachers generally go to teach secondary school....they have less interest in teaching younger children. Possibly see it more as a motherly substitute role at that age?

That said, the school my kids go to have male teachers...but the are way out numbered by female ones.

beechwood55

When mine were in primary school there were 5 male teachers. Now there is one.

eviltwin

Depends on the school, there is a good mix of male and female teachers in my son's school.

James Bond Junior

When I entered teacher training college there were 500 in my undergrad year, of that less than 50 were male. I was the first person in my all male secondary school to go teaching in years. Just the way it is really.

Jimbob1977

My children's primary school has a few more male teachers this year.

It is a welcome development. Boys need to see male role models... equally as much as girls need to see female role models

ronnie085

Should there not be policies to encourage men into primary teaching, like women into stem areas, eg women only scholarships, gender quotas, jobs women only need apply? Maybe not.

James Bond Junior

ronnie085 wrote: »

Should there not be policies to encourage men into primary teaching, like women into stem areas, eg women only scholarships, gender quotas, jobs women only need apply? Maybe not.

There was an initiative called MATE when i was interested. Males as teachers and educators. It was a poster put up by the guidance councillor.

Big Bag of Chips

3 male teachers in our 6 teacher school.

titan18

James Bond Junior wrote:

When I entered teacher training college there were 500 in my undergrad year, of that less than 50 were male. I was the first person in my all male secondary school to go teaching in years. Just the way it is really.

No one accepts just the way it is for Women in STEM do they, so why for males in teaching?

Kamu

Went through Primary school without a male teacher.

My male friend is a Primary school teacher in an all boys school, he is the only one. He is also the sports/rugby coach for the school, though he plans to leave after this academic year to go to a public school, if that happens, I don't see the school being able to find a replacement male teacher/coach.

spurious

ronnie085 wrote: »

Should there not be policies to encourage men into primary teaching, like women into stem areas, eg women only scholarships, gender quotas, jobs women only need apply? Maybe not.

There are.

For such an allegedly easy job, with massive pay and year long holidays, you'd think they'd be banging down the doors...

stanley1980

Is it time to think about gender quotas for primary school teaching? I believe it's incredibly important and formative that children have positive male role models. In some families, there may be no male role model at all. What's more, it's a simple fact that men are more likely to be involved with sports which has big implications when it comes to the coaching and promoting of sports at primary school level.

afkasurfjunkie

Most school principals locally are men.

irishgrover

titan18 wrote: »

No one accepts just the way it is for Women in STEM do they, so why for males in teaching?

excuse my ignorance - whats STEM?

Kamu

irishgrover wrote: »

excuse my ignorance - whats STEM?

Science Technology Engineering and Mathematics careers I believe.

boardsuser1

Only one male teacher in my daughters school,saying that, a former colleague is male and a teacher in a boy’s school.

Gatling

My kids school is 28 female teachers -2 male teachers ,
I'm planning to start a degree for primary teaching next year ,

Romantic Rose

I see a lot of sexism in primary teaching. Men walk into jobs. Every year without fail, every man on my local diocesan panel will get a permanent job. Doesn't matter if they're good teachers or not, from what I see if you have a certain genitalia you will get a job. I know a school that took 4 males teachers off the panel one summer and only have one female teacher now.

I also see a discrepancy in the amount of male principals too. A lot more male than female in my area even though I know women went for the job too.

Just my observation. I would just rather see the best person for the job get the job rather than a person get the job just because they are a certain gender.

I don't know why males would be put off by teaching when they'll get jobs easily enough.

Romantic Rose

Sorry for the above rant but I would prefer to think from a best teacher point of view than a gender point of view.

In my local school, there are no male teachers but I would say that 3 of the teachers are the best teachers I have ever seen teaching. Absolutely phenomenal teachers and one has a lot of sports teams running in the school too.

heldel00

We go swimming with our school. The children are encouraged to dress themselves but sometimes to speed things up you'll "help" if necessary. Bu help I mean - dry their feet, put on socks, get the vest out of bag, wrap up the wet stuff ...
Last week a colleague was holding a towel to allow the 1st class child to pull up their underwear. The child kept taking glances and when teacher asked if she was ok she said "I'm just checking that you're not looking at me."
My colleague was completely shocked by this and felt extremely uncomfortable.
If this is the way things are going is it any wonder there are very few males going into the profession.

heldel00

Romantic Rose wrote: »

I see a lot of sexism in primary teaching. Men walk into jobs. Every year without fail, every man on my local diocesan panel will get a permanent job. Doesn't matter if they're good teachers or not, from what I see if you have a certain genitalia you will get a job. I know a school that took 4 males teachers off the panel one summer and only have one female teacher now.

I also see a discrepancy in the amount of male principals too. A lot more male than female in my area even though I know women went for the job too.

Just my observation. I would just rather see the best person for the job get the job rather than a person get the job just because they are a certain gender.

I don't know why males would be put off by teaching when they'll get jobs easily enough.

A girl was on the local panel. Her name was Jodie. She was inundated with phonecalls because it was assumed she was male!

Romantic Rose

heldel00 wrote: »

A girl was on the local panel. Her name was Jodie. She was inundated with phonecalls because it was assumed she was male!

I hope she put on a very masculine voice to get the job

I'm considering a sex change to get permanent!

stanley1980

heldel00 wrote: »

We go swimming with our school. The children are encouraged to dress themselves but sometimes to speed things up you'll "help" if necessary. Bu help I mean - dry their feet, put on socks, get the vest out of bag, wrap up the wet stuff ...
Last week a colleague was holding a towel to allow the 1st class child to pull up their underwear. The child kept taking glances and when teacher asked if she was ok she said "I'm just checking that you're not looking at me."
My colleague was completely shocked by this and felt extremely uncomfortable.
If this is the way things are going is it any wonder there are very few males going into the profession.

I don't see what, if anything, this shows. Seems entirely normal that a child of that age might feel uncomfortable that their teacher was so close by when they're getting changed. I think you're reading into this too much.

Lady_North1

In our school, primary, we've staff of 40. 16 male teachers. Slightly above average

patsman07

Romantic Rose wrote: »

I see a lot of sexism in primary teaching. Men walk into jobs. Every year without fail, every man on my local diocesan panel will get a permanent job. Doesn't matter if they're good teachers or not, from what I see if you have a certain genitalia you will get a job. I know a school that took 4 males teachers off the panel one summer and only have one female teacher now.

I also see a discrepancy in the amount of male principals too. A lot more male than female in my area even though I know women went for the job too.

Just my observation. I would just rather see the best person for the job get the job rather than a person get the job just because they are a certain gender.

I don't know why males would be put off by teaching when they'll get jobs easily enough.

I don't agree with your point of view about teachers in general, when it comes to jobs, Principals know who they are giving a job to before the jobs even advertised. Usually they have someone they know lined up.

Regarding Principals, I think the reason there is an over representation of males is due to the fact that the person who usually has the final say is the parish priest. The Catholic Church is not known for its progressive attitudes toward women.

James Bond Junior

patsman07 wrote: »

I don't agree with your point of view about teachers in general, when it comes to jobs, Principals know who they are giving a job to before the jobs even advertised. Usually they have someone they know lined up.

Regarding Principals, I think the reason there is an over representation of males is due to the fact that the person who usually has the final say is the parish priest. The Catholic Church is not known for its progressive attitudes toward women.

Also men are expected to go for the role. I am regularly asked when I will be going for a principals job, not if. I have zero interest however. Women often feel themselves they aren't ready for the role due to family commitments and having young children at the stage where they are becoming ready professionally to take on the job.

heldel00

stanley1980 wrote: »

I don't see what, if anything, this shows. Seems entirely normal that a child of that age might feel uncomfortable that their teacher was so close by when they're getting changed. I think you're reading into this too much.

Absolutely not. It only takes one child to go home and say something to a parent to have your name smeared. Good old rural Ireland usually has the attitude of " no smoke without fire" which doesn't help either.
Back in Sept I was out on yard duty and there was an older boy lepping round the place like a calf just let out. He was in the middle of the new infants and i could see an accident going to happen. As he was running past o called his name amd put my arm out to catch him. His response - " what are you trying to touch me for? You're trying to hurt me. Dont touch me again."
It was another of those "God where did i touch him? Did i hurt him ..." questionning and doubting yourself for the split second moments.
Could happen to either male or femaile but as my male colleague often says, we have to be careful but he has to be extra careful.

Big Bag of Chips

Why was a male teacher in the girls dressing room to start with?

Our school goes swimming. Our local pool has communal changing areas with individual cubicles, and 2 group changing areas. The boys go into 1 the girls into the other, and they get changed. If one child is slower than the others, they soon learn to speed up.

A male teacher should not be in a girls dressing room. As you say, that's as much for his protection as theirs. As you rightly point out, all it takes is for that child to go home and say "Mr Whoever was watching me trying to pull up my knickers" and the parents would have every right to go to the school and ask why Mr Whoever was in their child's/the girls' dressing room and rumours and complaints to the school could ruin the man's reputation. All child protection and children first policy and procedures would advise strongly against that scenario you mentioned. Very silly of that man to put himself in that situation.

I'd prefer my child was left alone to figure out how to get dressed quicker herself.

TheQuietFella

amcalester wrote: »

No, just very few males entering the profession.

They didn't call Mary I' the Virgin Mega Store for nothing!!!!!!

heldel00

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Why was a male teacher in the girls dressing room to start with?

Our school goes swimming. Our local pool has communal changing areas with individual cubicles, and 2 group changing areas. The boys go into 1 the girls into the other, and they get changed. If one child is slower than the others, they soon learn to speed up.

A male teacher should not be in a girls dressing room. As you say, that's as much for his protection as theirs. As you rightly point out, all it takes is for that child to go home and say "Mr Whoever was watching me trying to pull up my knickers" and the parents would have every right to go to the school and ask why Mr Whoever was in their child's/the girls' dressing room and rumours and complaints to the school could ruin the man's reputation. All child protection and children first policy and procedures would advise strongly against that scenario you mentioned. Very silly of that man to put himself in that situation.

I'd prefer my child was left alone to figure out how to get dressed quicker herself.

It was a female colleague.

Big Bag of Chips

Fair enough... But in our school neither sex teachers go in to the dressing rooms to help. They may call in at the end to make sure everyone is out. But if kids are allowed to go swimming, it is expected that they are old enough to get dressed without help or assistance. It's a life skill that they need to learn, and they may not get it fully right at first, but they'll soon learn if they're sitting in wet socks or twisted knickers for a few hours!

heldel00

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Fair enough... But in our school neither sex teachers go in to the dressing rooms to help. They may call in at the end to make sure everyone is out. But if kids are allowed to go swimming, it is expected that they are old enough to get dressed without help or assistance. It's a life skill that they need to learn, and they may not get it fully right at first, but they'll soon learn if they're sitting in wet socks or twisted knickers for a few hours!

I apppreciate where you are coming from. We've decided that from next week on we will be in the changing room but we will be standing with arms firmly folded.
I just find it all very worrying, very sad too but mostly worrying.

Romantic Rose

heldel00 wrote: »

I apppreciate where you are coming from. We've decided that from next week on we will be in the changing room but we will be standing with arms firmly folded.
I just find it all very worrying, very sad too but mostly worrying.

That's what I do if I have to go swimming, fold arms and divert eye contact. There is always a lot of messing in changing rooms and dragging time out because they don't want to go back to school straight away. I go into the boys changing room because the last time I went with a group, the boys got rowdy. I won't help children dress though. Yes you have to protect yourself but you have to do your job and supervise the pupils too.

Romantic Rose

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Also men are expected to go for the role. I am regularly asked when I will be going for a principals job, not if. I have zero interest however. Women often feel themselves they aren't ready for the role due to family commitments and having young children at the stage where they are becoming ready professionally to take on the job.

That's the sexism I'm talking about. The women can make their own minds up if they want to go for the job.

James Bond Junior

Romantic Rose wrote: »

That's the sexism I'm talking about. The women can make their own minds up if they want to go for the job.

I'm speaking from the exoerience of speaking to femsle colleagues and that is quite often their own reply. Stop looking to be offended.

Romantic Rose

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I'm speaking from the exoerience of speaking to femsle colleagues and that is quite often their own reply. Stop looking to be offended.

I'm not offended. I'm just simply pointing out that sexism is rife in teaching. You said yourself you are being asked when you'd take on a principalship when you don't want it at the moment. It's doubtful that female teachers are asked the same question.

Why do a lot of people assume a man wants the principal role and the female wants to focus on minding her children when she could do both.

I did my dissertation on gender imbalance in primary schools and how females are portrayed across the curriculum (postman, milkman, fireman!). It's important that we as educators are mindful that we're empowering both genders.

James Bond Junior

Romantic Rose wrote: »

I'm not offended. I'm just simply pointing out that sexism is rife in teaching. You said yourself you are being asked when you'd take on a principalship when you don't want it at the moment. It's doubtful that female teachers are asked the same question.

Why do a lot of people assume a man wants the principal role and the female wants to focus on minding her children when she could do both.

I did my dissertation on gender imbalance in primary schools and how females are portrayed across the curriculum (postman, milkman, fireman!). It's important that we as educators are mindful that we're empowering both genders.

Fair enough, I took you up the wrong way clearly.

OwaynOTT

Why is it important to have male primary level teachers? To be a male role model? What do people actually mean when they say male role model?

Avatar MIA

I don't get the whole male teacher required as a role model. A role model for what exactly?

I would not see any disadvantage for a male child if they had all female teachers throughout primary school.

As for the principal job, I think my wife would make an excellent principal, but she has no interest. But, I'd say the Parish priest preference is a big factor.

I personally would have no interest in primary (or secondary for that matter) teaching.

Half jokingly I would consider going to Mary I if starting all over again, apparently even the most average Joe comes out of there thinking they're rock stars due to the gender imbalance. Virgin Mega store, never heard that one before :pac:

patsman07

Romantic Rose wrote: »

I'm not offended. I'm just simply pointing out that sexism is rife in teaching. You said yourself you are being asked when you'd take on a principalship when you don't want it at the moment. It's doubtful that female teachers are asked the same question.

Why do a lot of people assume a man wants the principal role and the female wants to focus on minding her children when she could do both.

I did my dissertation on gender imbalance in primary schools and how females are portrayed across the curriculum (postman, milkman, fireman!). It's important that we as educators are mindful that we're empowering both genders.

I presume a lot of people assume men want a principal role because the current situation is one in which men tend to go for those positions more than women.
I done a H-Dip ten years ago, in a class of 36 there were only 4 males. At the end of the course our final results were posted online. While everyone got honours, the four men finished in the bottom four positions. From speaking to others, I ascertained that this was the trend among the undergraduates too.

evolving_doors

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Why is it important to have male primary level teachers? To be a male role model? What do people actually mean when they say male role model?

I dont agree with gender quotas but I suppose if a male child only experiences female teachers then they might be put off becoming one.
So it's discouraging 'up to' 50% of potential applicants.
Leaving aside gender-- If you double the applicants the chances of getting better candidates improves.

So from my perspective it's not so important that there are more 'male' teachers... it's more important that more 'people' apply to become teachers.
(Also leaving aside the issue of criteria to get on to the courses, that's for another thread:))
How to do that without gender quotas... I don't know.

tastyt

Just my side of things : male by the way

I work in finance, always have. A few years ago I decided I that I would do what I always would like to do and go back as a mature student to be a primary school teacher, I thought it was worth the sacrifice of years in college and a drop in salary.

So I applied and got called for interview to saint pats. I had got a b in honours irish in the leaving cert 10 years previosly but obviously hadnt used the language so I had a couple of months grinds ( maybe 14,15 sessions ) to prepare for the oral irish interview and felt happy that I was prepared.

So I turn up for interview and there is literally a five to ten percent male attendance and a lot of applicants. I go into the initial English interview and they go through my cv and experience in school, sport and work and the 2 people interviewing me tell me im perfect for the role, exactly what they need and then wish me the very best of luck in the irish interview with an anxious look on their faces.

As I sit waiting for the irish I hear conversations all round me of girls going to live in the gaeltacht for a few months before the interview to prepare for the irish and get so downhearted.

Anyway I go in and get by in the irish conversation, understanding everything asked and answering as best I could ( nothing 3 or 4 years studying wouldnt help )

Long story short I dont get in because of my Irish oral. Im really disappointed and almost angry with the decision to be honest. Im told one minute im the exact candidate they want but this over reliance on a certain standard of irish is ridiculous. My circumstances changed and I couldn't re apply the following year but thats not the point.

For a young man who wants to get into the profession the irish language side of things is a huge turn off, its all that matters in the application process, so many good young male candidates are lost due to that absolute nonsense

James Bond Junior

tastyt wrote: »

Just my side of things : male by the way

I work in finance, always have. A few years ago I decided I that I would do what I always would like to do and go back as a mature student to be a primary school teacher, I thought it was worth the sacrifice of years in college and a drop in salary.

So I applied and got called for interview to saint pats. I had got a b in honours irish in the leaving cert 10 years previosly but obviously hadnt used the language so I had a couple of months grinds ( maybe 14,15 sessions ) to prepare for the oral irish interview and felt happy that I was prepared.

So I turn up for interview and there is literally a five to ten percent male attendance and a lot of applicants. I go into the initial English interview and they go through my cv and experience in school, sport and work and the 2 people interviewing me tell me im perfect for the role, exactly what they need and then wish me the very best of luck in the irish interview with an anxious look on their faces.

As I sit waiting for the irish I hear conversations all round me of girls going to live in the gaeltacht for a few months before the interview to prepare for the irish and get so downhearted.

Anyway I go in and get by in the irish conversation, understanding everything asked and answering as best I could ( nothing 3 or 4 years studying wouldnt help )

Long story short I dont get in because of my Irish oral. Im really disappointed and almost angry with the decision to be honest. Im told one minute im the exact candidate they want but this over reliance on a certain standard of irish is ridiculous. My circumstances changed and I couldn't re apply the following year but thats not the point.

For a young man who wants to get into the profession the irish language side of things is a huge turn off, its all that matters in the application process, so many good young male candidates are lost due to that absolute nonsense

I sympathise with what you're saying and feel for you but if you didn't pass the oral now you are better off. The curriculum is going towards an immersion style teaching of Irish and the standard needs improving. Personally I am pushing myself harder in this regard and I have fair to medium irish as is.

silverharp

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Why is it important to have male primary level teachers? To be a male role model? What do people actually mean when they say male role model?

I dont know about the role model bit but I'd expect male teachers to deal with boys in a more sympathetic way (on average). In the US its been noticed that girls behaviour is deemed to be the gold standard and boys behaviour is dysfunctional in comparison. They also run the schools to suit girls, cutting recess time and sports times. Result far more boys alienated from education
Not saying its an issue in the Irish system but even in my son's school he said on a few occasions that the boys were given group punishment or the boys couldnt play their sports properly because the teachers were making a meal of things.

ted1

edireland wrote: »

Now that I'm retired I started to pick up my grandchild for school.
No male teachers to be seen is this a policy decision by the Education Department ? .

Gender balances only work one way.

stanley1980

heldel00 wrote: »

Absolutely not. It only takes one child to go home and say something to a parent to have your name smeared. Good old rural Ireland usually has the attitude of " no smoke without fire" which doesn't help either.
Back in Sept I was out on yard duty and there was an older boy lepping round the place like a calf just let out. He was in the middle of the new infants and i could see an accident going to happen. As he was running past o called his name amd put my arm out to catch him. His response - " what are you trying to touch me for? You're trying to hurt me. Dont touch me again."
It was another of those "God where did i touch him? Did i hurt him ..." questionning and doubting yourself for the split second moments.
Could happen to either male or femaile but as my male colleague often says, we have to be careful but he has to be extra careful.

Are you sure you're in the right profession? You seem obsessed with this. Going to work with this kind of fatalistic attitude can't be good for you or your pupils. Yes of course you have to be careful and professional but if you follow basic procedures there's little to be worrying about.

amcalester

tastyt wrote: »

Just my side of things : male by the way

For a young man who wants to get into the profession the irish language side of things is a huge turn off, its all that matters in the application process, so many good young male candidates are lost due to that absolute nonsense

Why does the Irish language requirement turn off more male than female candidates?

Moonbeam

In the 1980's when I was in school,there were very few male teachers I think there were about 8 in roughly a 30 teacher school.
The teachers explained to us that there were very few men that did teaching and that was it so I presume men just don't view it as much of a carer option then women.

heldel00

stanley1980 wrote: »

Are you sure you're in the right profession? You seem obsessed with this. Going to work with this kind of fatalistic attitude can't be good for you or your pupils. Yes of course you have to be careful and professional but if you follow basic procedures there's little to be worrying about.

Good man Stanley. You are getting from my two posts that I'm obsessed! I don't cower in the corner of the classroom every day clutching the school policy booklet.
We are having a discussion. I am giving my tuppence worth. I gave one experience that happened to a colleague and one that happened recently to me. I have been teaching for over a decade but it just seems instances like this are becoming more commonplace.
Thank you for your concern for wellbeing of both my pupils and myself though.