Being a non believer but not identifying as an athiest.

shaunr68

Christopher Hitchens made the same point referred to earlier. "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

It's a fair point, there is just as much evidence for Thor as there is for any the existence of any other god. What amuses me is the idea that a believer might die, discover that yes there is an afterlife but realise that they have been backing the wrong horse all along when they come face to face with Zeus or Quetzalcoatl. Or they see a load of men each being entertained by 72 virgins and realise THAT lot were right all along!

I did like Hitchens' description of himself as an anti-theist rather than an atheist. Not only did he not have any belief in the supernatural, he did not like religion, from the negative influence that religion had over people to the fact that we are expected to respect priests, imams and so on while they wage sectarian war, indoctrinate the gullible and molest children.

beefburrito

shaunr68 wrote: »

Christopher Hitchens made the same point referred to earlier. "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

It's a fair point, there is just as much evidence for Thor as there is for any the existence of any other god. What amuses me is the idea that a believer might die, discover that yes there is an afterlife but realise that they have been backing the wrong horse all along when they come face to face with Zeus or Quetzalcoatl. Or they see a load of men each being entertained by 72 virgins and realise THAT lot were right all along!

I did like Hitchens' description of himself as an anti-theist rather than an atheist. Not only did he not have any belief in the supernatural, he did not like religion, from the negative influence that religion had over people to the fact that we are expected to respect priests, imams and so on while they wage sectarian war, indoctrinate the gullible and molest children.

I think Hitchens was very interesting and intelligent,but his outspoken view's were a bit harsh in ways.
He kinda liked agitating people and took the whole religious thing to almost an obsession.

But he had a lot of great points too, only for Hitchens I would never have known how Mother Theresa was a wolf in sheep's clothing and being honest,I never seen him loose a debate.

He really focused on the negative side of religion.

Bit he didn't have the cognitive ability to empathize with the old dear who was none the wiser about God and religions.
Like old Peggy who believed in God and there was no budging her from her beliefs.

shaunr68

Yes, I have been thinking about that too.

Talking to my father recently who is in his late 70s he is very aware of and frightened of his impending demise. He hs never been a great god-botherer but is a christian of sorts and clearly believes in an afterlife. I don't think it would be appropriate, in fact it would be cruel to try to persuade somebody who takes comfort from the idea of an ongoing consciousness after death that oh by the way, there is nothing to look forward to, it's the end dad. Sorry! Off you go now!

To be fair to Hitchens his interviews and debates were generally in an academic setting, they didn't let him loose in old peoples homes or anything

Hotblack Desiato

beefburrito wrote: »

I think Hitchens was very interesting and intelligent,but his outspoken view's were a bit harsh in ways.

He did enjoy winding certain people up. I think that his pro-Iraq War stance was at least partly contrarianism for contrarianism's sake. Since the removal of Saddam's quasi-secularist, though brutal, regime religious and ethnic tensions have (predictably) resurfaced in Iraq in a big way, similar to when Yugoslavia fell apart and all the repressed hatred and desire for revenge came back to the surface.

But he had a lot of great points too, only for Hitchens I would never have known how Mother Theresa was a wolf in sheep's clothing and being honest,I never seen him loose a debate.

My kid is opted out of religion but has to sit in the room. A few weeks back they were being told (in a protestant school, ffs!) about how great MT was. They were told though that if they wanted to find out more, be sure to search for 'mother theresa for kids' - because if you left the last two words out, you might get the unvarnished truth :rolleyes:
(She already knew who MT was and that she was, at best, seriously flawed)

You do have to admire Hitchens though, as an atheist, going to the Vatican to act as 'devil's advocate' against the canonisation of a saint

Bit he didn't have the cognitive ability to empathize with the old dear who was none the wiser about God and religions.
Like old Peggy who believed in God and there was no budging her from her beliefs.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Old Peggy is really not likely to have heard of him.

shaunr68 wrote: »

He hs never been a great god-botherer but is a christian of sorts and clearly believes in an afterlife.

What's he worrying about, then? He's hardly convinced he's hellbound, is he?

I don't think it would be appropriate, in fact it would be cruel to try to persuade somebody who takes comfort from the idea of an ongoing consciousness after death that oh by the way, there is nothing to look forward to, it's the end dad. Sorry! Off you go now!

If someone had been convinced they were going to hell, losing their belief would be a relief.

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If someone had been convinced they were going to hell, losing their belief would be a relief.

I'm guessing the fear is more of ceasing to exist all together rather than heaven or hell.

CalamariFritti

If measures were applied strictly, and if we stayed with that thought model for a moment we'd have no reason to believe they would not be, there'd be very very few people going to Heaven in any case. We may not have actually murdered people or got in on with our neighbour's wife but these days just our daily lives leave ample room for being hell bound.

Hotblack Desiato

smacl wrote: »

I'm guessing the fear is more of ceasing to exist all together rather than heaven or hell.

I already have not existed for billions of years and it did not bother me a jot. When I cease to exist, fear and all other emotions shall cease to exist also. Also this dude:

Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not. - Epicurus

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I already have not existed for billions of years and it did not bother me a jot. When I cease to exist, fear and all other emotions shall cease to exist also. Also this dude:

Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not. - Epicurus

Easy for you or me who have no expectations of an afterlife. Less so for an elderly person nearing death who has been promised it, accepted that promise in good faith and lived their life on that basis.

Hotblack Desiato

For catholics, maybe - they'd probably be more worried about having rosary beads in their hand and a priest muttering over them when they go, than thoughts of ending up in hell

Other denominations are, shall we say, stricter. Imagine growing up in a strict evangelical household and realising that you are gay, for instance. They'd easily be convinced they were going to hell and becoming atheist would be a great relief to them.