Knee Injury

Sullysark · 10-10-2017 11:53am #1

Hopefully someone with some insight will be able to give me advice.
I' went to a physiotherapist for roughly 3 months in regards to an on going knee issue. In their opinion there was nothing major wrong simply overuse and give me a plan, 2 months since I finished the same pain has returned it will come and go. I'm simply trying to go jogging, its sharp and dull pain that will come and then disappear the next day and may come or go at any time. I cant be more then 20/30 squats without it appearing. I've gained roughly a stone since this has happened, its impossible to lose weight if i can exercise consistently.
Would i be over doing it to soon? Not warming up before jogging? It's becoming very very annoying.

White Clover · 10-10-2017 12:02pm

Sullysark wrote: »

Hopefully someone with some insight will be able to give me advice.
I' went to a physiotherapist for roughly 3 months in regards to an on going knee issue. In their opinion there was nothing major wrong simply overuse and give me a plan, 2 months since I finished the same pain has returned it will come and go. I'm simply trying to go jogging, its sharp and dull pain that will come and then disappear the next day and may come or go at any time. I cant be more then 20/30 squats without it appearing. I've gained roughly a stone since this has happened, its impossible to lose weight if i can exercise consistently.
Would i be over doing it to soon? Not warming up before jogging? It's becoming very very annoying.

Have you had an MRI done to establish what exactly is the problem? Sounds like a cartilage problem but the only way to find out I'd by getting an MRI done.

omb0wyn5ehpij9 · 10-10-2017 1:21pm

Sullysark wrote: »

Hopefully someone with some insight will be able to give me advice.
I' went to a physiotherapist for roughly 3 months in regards to an on going knee issue. In their opinion there was nothing major wrong simply overuse and give me a plan, 2 months since I finished the same pain has returned it will come and go. I'm simply trying to go jogging, its sharp and dull pain that will come and then disappear the next day and may come or go at any time. I cant be more then 20/30 squats without it appearing. I've gained roughly a stone since this has happened, its impossible to lose weight if i can exercise consistently.
Would i be over doing it to soon? Not warming up before jogging? It's becoming very very annoying.

You are gaining weight as you are eating too much food. Weight gain/loss is mainly due to diet.

If you are still having issues with your knee, go back to your physio. He/she is the only person who can help. You may need to ask them to send you for a MRI

Sullysark · 10-10-2017 3:25pm

White Clover wrote: »

Sullysark wrote: »

Hopefully someone with some insight will be able to give me advice.
I' went to a physiotherapist for roughly 3 months in regards to an on going knee issue. In their opinion there was nothing major wrong simply overuse and give me a plan, 2 months since I finished the same pain has returned it will come and go. I'm simply trying to go jogging, its sharp and dull pain that will come and then disappear the next day and may come or go at any time. I cant be more then 20/30 squats without it appearing. I've gained roughly a stone since this has happened, its impossible to lose weight if i can exercise consistently.
Would i be over doing it to soon? Not warming up before jogging? It's becoming very very annoying.

Have you had an MRI done to establish what exactly is the problem? Sounds like a cartilage problem but the only way to find out I'd by getting an MRI done.

I haven't, mainly due to that fact I'm aware that may be the issue and may require surgery to correct. That side of it, terrifies me.

thehamo · 20-10-2017 10:24am

White Clover wrote: »

Have you had an MRI done to establish what exactly is the problem? Sounds like a cartilage problem but the only way to find out I'd by getting an MRI done.

Please disregard this post in all its forms. "Sounds" like a cartilage issue is simply wrong to say. MRI imaging should only be used in cases of trauma unless all other avenues are exhausted. Get a second opinion from a different therapist. You are relying on what this one person said but it could be completely wrong.

What part of the country are you in? I could send you a few recommendations

....... · 20-10-2017 10:27am

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omb0wyn5ehpij9 · 20-10-2017 11:03am

....... wrote: »

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If you read my post properly, I said that there is also a need for a MRI, which most physios can refer you for.

And as a FYI, I've also had three knee surgeries, along with an ankle surgery and an achilles surgery. So I have a fair idea of the best route to go for injuries :rolleyes:

....... · 20-10-2017 11:13am

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omb0wyn5ehpij9 · 20-10-2017 11:36am

....... wrote: »

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No, the doctor is not the next logical step. The next logical step is a MRI, which I have said in my original post

....... · 20-10-2017 11:52am

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Mellor · 20-10-2017 1:05pm

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Telling someone to get an MRI is not really medical advice. Certainly not a diagnosis.
If you wanted to take such a broad view, then telling someone to see a doctor is also "medical advice".

If a decent physio can't determine the issue. Then I doubt you'll have any luck with a GP. In my experience GP's have a very basic if that this kind of stuff.

If you want to fully investigate the issue. Get an MRI and then go to an orthopaedic doctor.

rustynutz · 20-10-2017 11:20pm

Insist on an MRI, I had similar issues with my knee and spent hundreds on doctors and physios without much success, eventually insisted on an MRI, turns out I had a fully severed ACL in my knee for that had gone undiagnosed for TEN YEARS!

White Clover · 20-10-2017 11:28pm

thehamo wrote: »

Please disregard this post in all its forms. "Sounds" like a cartilage issue is simply wrong to say. MRI imaging should only be used in cases of trauma unless all other avenues are exhausted. Get a second opinion from a different therapist. You are relying on what this one person said but it could be completely wrong.

What part of the country are you in? I could send you a few recommendations

Give over!
Any other therapist is only going to be guessing. Get an MRI done to categorically identify the problem. Going around handing out 50's to therapists to have a guess is not good advice.

rustynutz · 21-10-2017 12:14am

Sullysark wrote: »

I haven't, mainly due to that fact I'm aware that may be the issue and may require surgery to correct. That side of it, terrifies me.

Most knee surgery is keyhole so very little to worry about, in and out of hospital in the same day usually

Mellor · 21-10-2017 4:00am

rustynutz wrote: »

Most knee surgery is keyhole so very little to worry about, in and out of hospital in the same day usually

It's the costs that worries me, not the scars.

thehamo · 21-10-2017 7:35am

White Clover wrote: »

Give over!
Any other therapist is only going to be guessing. Get an MRI done to categorically identify the problem. Going around handing out 50's to therapists to have a guess is not good advice.

So you have knee pain and you go to get an MRI done and it comes up wear and tear in the cartilage. Bingo theres your problem. Bull****. We all have wear and tear in our cartilage. It's the causation v's correlation argument. There is far to much reliance on medical imaging in trying to determine whats going on in our bodies. I can show you countless studies on the unreliability of medical imaging when determining pain. It takes a simple understanding of pain science and how we actually feel pain to know why we shouldn't reply on MRIs or the likes. Why do you think people are always saying" I've had to have 3 surgeries on my knee" "I've had to have 3 operations on my back for the same issue". Ever stop to think that it wasnt the issue in the first place and the surgery only serves to make the issue worse?

Surgery should only be the last option after youve exhausted all avenues. Seeing one physio is not exhausting all avenues.

Mellor · 21-10-2017 7:54am

thehamo wrote: »

So you have knee pain and you go to get an MRI done and it comes up wear and tear in the cartilage. Bingo theres your problem. Bull****.
We all have wear and tear in our cartilage. It's the causation v's correlation argument. There is far to much reliance on medical imaging in trying to determine whats going on in our bodies. I can show you countless studies on the unreliability of medical imaging when determining pain. It takes a simple understanding of pain science and how we actually feel pain to know why we shouldn't reply on MRIs or the likes. Why do you think people are always saying" I've had to have 3 surgeries on my knee" "I've had to have 3 operations on my back for the same issue". Ever stop to think that it wasnt the issue in the first place and the surgery only serves to make the issue worse?

Surgery should only be the last option after youve exhausted all avenues. Seeing one physio is not exhausting all avenues.

You arguement falls apart when the cause is not indeterminate pain.

Example. I hurt my knee last week. Went to the doctor, who had a look. Checked the stability if my knee. Said it was fine, just done bruising and swelling. I disagreed, so I insisted on an MRI. Which showed I've a torn MCL and a torn meniscus.

Can you explain how the above tears are not the issue? How the MRI is unreliable. And why I should have trusted the professional who said I was fine?

Alf Veedersane · 21-10-2017 8:19am

Mellor wrote: »

You arguement falls apart when the cause is not indeterminate pain.

Example. I hurt my knee last week. Went to the doctor, who had a look. Checked the stability if my knee. Said it was fine, just done bruising and swelling. I disagreed, so I insisted on an MRI. Which showed I've a torn MCL and a torn meniscus.

Can you explain how the above tears are not the issue? How the MRI is unreliable. And why I should have trusted the professional who said I was fine?

I think you're both kinda right. In your instance, it made absolute sense to get an MRI given there was a very specific incident where the injury happened.

The OP has an ongoing issue with no identifiable cause. While I still wouldn't say an MRI is a bad idea, a good physio can try and identify the cause and then suggest an MRI.

Wanderer78 · 21-10-2017 8:29am

I've had a knee issue for many years, after seeing a couple of physios, countless doctors and getting an mri, the issue was identified. It was a glute imbalance problem, identified by a physio. I was experiencing intense pain on the side of the knee after a couple of hours of a particular activity, hill walking. The physio that identified it, gave me exercises that seem to be addressing it, and I also regularly use a foam roller. No idea if that helps op, but best of luck with it.

thehamo · 21-10-2017 8:38am

Mellor wrote: »

You arguement falls apart when the cause is not indeterminate pain.

Example. I hurt my knee last week. Went to the doctor, who had a look. Checked the stability if my knee. Said it was fine, just done bruising and swelling. I disagreed, so I insisted on an MRI. Which showed I've a torn MCL and a torn meniscus.

Can you explain how the above tears are not the issue? How the MRI is unreliable. And why I should have trusted the professional who said I was fine?

If you read my original post I say MRIs are usefull when there is a trauma to the area or when you "hurt" your self by some action. Then im all for MRI and medical imaging.

When it comes to onset pain where it just "comes out of no where " then they are useless. Like everything there is a time and a place.

Alf Veedersane · 21-10-2017 8:39am

thehamo wrote: »

If you read my original post I say MRIs are good when there is a trauma to an area then I whole heartedly agree. When you didn't do anything and just have onset knee pain "for no reason" the medical imaging is pointless

I will defer to your professional opinion.

But I wouldn't have thought an MRI was pointless in that instance. Useless on its own without a professional to identify how the problem was caused, absolutely. But I would have thought it would be useful for a professional in identifying the cause.

Mellor · 21-10-2017 8:46am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I think you're both kinda right. In your instance, it made absolute sense to get an MRI given there was a very specific incident where the injury happened.

The OP has an ongoing issue with no identifiable cause. While I still wouldn't say an MRI is a bad idea, a good physio can try and identify the cause and then suggest an MRI.

I'm not suggesting that an MRI is the only option, or even the first option. But a physio has already suggested there's nothing wrong. A different physio might make a different diagnosis. But at this point it makes sense to me to have a look inside.

I'm not saying it's as simple as get an MRI, find the problem. An MRI doesn't give a diagnosis. It's simply information that somebody has to interpret.. But that extra information is can help a professional find the issue.

Alf Veedersane · 21-10-2017 8:50am

Mellor wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that an MRI is the only option, or even the first option. But a physio has already suggested there's nothing wrong. A different physio might make a different diagnosis. But at this point it makes sense to me to have a look inside.

I'm not saying it's as simple as get an MRI, find the problem. An MRI doesn't give a diagnosis. It's simply information that somebody has to interpret.. But that extra information is can help a professional find the issue.

I'm actually agreeing with all that, as per above.

popsy09 · 21-10-2017 8:50am

Take it from someone who is after 2 operations on his knee . Acl and meniscus repair and scar tissue removal . Get an mri

I went to the doc for my acl who told me rest for 6 weeks do some exercises and it be ok I ended up doing more damage than good

No one no matter how good they are they cant see what's exactly going on inside your knee . An mri is essential in my opinion

As regard cost my acl operation with stay in hospital cost 4400 then with consultant fees was over 5k

The second op was 2500 and with fees over 3k

Mellor · 21-10-2017 9:03am

thehamo wrote: »

[
If you read my original post I say MRIs are usefull when there is a trauma to the area or when you "hurt" your self by some action. Then im all for MRI and medical imaging.

When it comes to onset pain where it just "comes out of no where " then they are useless. Like everything there is a time and a place.

I seen the original post. I still disagree with the second part. Sometime they might not offer any benefit, That's fair enough. But if there's any issue they could pick up, the aren't useless.

thehamo · 21-10-2017 9:16am

Mellor wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that an MRI is the only option, or even the first option. But a physio has already suggested there's nothing wrong. A different physio might make a different diagnosis. But at this point it makes sense to me to have a look inside.

I'm not saying it's as simple as get an MRI, find the problem. An MRI doesn't give a diagnosis. It's simply information that somebody has to interpret.. But that extra information is can help a professional find the issue.

The issue with MRI is that it can show up anomalies that can be interpretated as the issue and as such an "appropriate" course of action is followed. Which a lot of the time is unnecessary surgery. Again, I am talking in terms of pain that just comes on, not acl injuries during a match or meniscus injuries due to twisting your knee etc.

If any of us suffer back pain and and we get an MRI done, chances are we'll bulging discs at l4/L5/S1. That said, anyone over the age of 20 with perfectly healthy backs going for an MRI will also likely see bulging discs and disc degeneration at l4/L5/S1. It's a result of gravity and time acting on your body. But it's not necessarily the cause of the pain. Yet an orthopaedic surgeon MAY look at the results and say yes we need to shave the discs or do a spinal fusion in order to solve the problem.

Ultimately what I am trying to say is MRIs can throw up false results which can be interpreted as the "problem" and then you can be lead down the wrong path. Conservative treatment (unless you have torn an acl or any kind of traumatic injury) will rarely make things worse. Just make you more frustrated if it doesn't work.

Mellor · 21-10-2017 9:49am

thehamo wrote: »

[
The issue with MRI is that it can show up anomalies that can be interpretated as the issue and as such an "appropriate" course of action is followed. Which a lot of the time is unnecessary surgery.

Sure, misinterpretation can happen. Does it always happen? No, I don't believe so.
It can happen with other (non-imaging) diagnosis too.

Again, I am talking in terms of pain that just comes on, not acl injuries during a match or meniscus injuries due to twisting your knee etc.

I know a guy who had random pain, that came and went. Not as the result of an injury but just general training. They blamed "bad knees". After about a year of physio he got an MRI and it turned out he had a torn meniscus that he was progressively making worse. In that case it wasn't useless imo.

Meniscus tears can be degenerative rather than from acute trauma. If that was discovered through imaging it's also not useless imo.

thehamo · 21-10-2017 10:05am

Mellor wrote: »

Sure, misinterpretation can happen. Does it always happen? No, I don't believe so.
It can happen with other (non-imaging) diagnosis too.

I know a guy who had random pain, that came and went. Not as the result of an injury but just general training. They blamed "bad knees". After about a year of physio he got an MRI and it turned out he had a torn meniscus that he was progressively making worse. In that case it wasn't useless imo.

Meniscus tears can be degenerative rather than from acute trauma. If that was discovered through imaging it's also not useless imo.

We all "know a guy who". The scientific research has shown the ineffectiveness of medical imaging in these situations. One story of I know a guy who doesn't quell years of scientific study

Mellor · 21-10-2017 10:29am

Studies could well prove it's not the most effective course. I never claimed it was

I'm just pointing out that there are situations where it helps. Even if they are the minority, then it's not completely useless all the time.
But we're getting away the OP's specific case tbh

White Clover · 21-10-2017 11:42am

thehamo wrote: »

So you have knee pain and you go to get an MRI done and it comes up wear and tear in the cartilage. Bingo theres your problem. Bull****. We all have wear and tear in our cartilage. It's the causation v's correlation argument. There is far to much reliance on medical imaging in trying to determine whats going on in our bodies. I can show you countless studies on the unreliability of medical imaging when determining pain. It takes a simple understanding of pain science and how we actually feel pain to know why we shouldn't reply on MRIs or the likes. Why do you think people are always saying" I've had to have 3 surgeries on my knee" "I've had to have 3 operations on my back for the same issue". Ever stop to think that it wasnt the issue in the first place and the surgery only serves to make the issue worse?

Surgery should only be the last option after youve exhausted all avenues. Seeing one physio is not exhausting all avenues.

You're making out that the ops injury is life threatening! What the op describes is a classic cartilage issue. No point faffing around throwing out 50's like confetti.
Step 1 get an MRI
Step 2 and final step, keyhole surgery. Job done, and op free of pain.
Your suggestion would make this a long drawn out affair attending therapists here there and everywhere and the op still suffering. Not good enough my friend! You're supposed to be professional about these things not extortionate!

Sullysark · 23-10-2017 5:59pm

Thanks guys, I didn't expect as many replies.

I purchased 'Back baller' I've booked into my doctor when I get home, to get to referral to an MRI. Being from the North, the thought of waiting a year or more on the NHS for an MRI is as painful I'm going to get a referral for an MRI and go private, hope it isn't surgical and if it isn't tell the physio what the underlying issue is. I've a lifelong fear of surgery, but if thats what it needs so be it. Being in my 20's I really don't want to live with this for much longer or let it get worse.

Knee Injury

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