Tenant no money to fix work they did

mandy2012 · 09-10-2017 11:08am #1

Hi looking for some advice. We are accidental landlords with no experience in this business. We let house to RAS tenant. House immaculate when we gave it to them. We have tenant who carried out work in house without our permission, painted most of house, paint now on floor, door frames, skirting boards, radiators, carpet. Very bad paint job. Also painted mahogany stair case white, then stripped it leaving chunks out of stairs. We asked her to get painter in to advise if it could be brought back to the way it was. Also pet on premises they are insisting isn't going.

We have issued breach letter giving her 30 days to rectify issues including get rid of pet and replacing carpet where paint spilt on it as it was new when they went in. Time up now and they now say they have not got the money to rectify the bad paint job and will not get rid of pet. We have said we will work with you and give more time if needed. They said doesn't matter don't have money to do anything and doesn't see what the problem is. They think we are too fussy. We were told by tenant that we would have to paint the house for them anyway as they are RAS and 5 yr contract. Are we being unreasonable ?

Are we being too particular expecting them to keep property up to standard it was given in. Just wondering where do we go from here. Basically I see we have a tenant not prepared to work with us at all on anything we ask.
Do we just leave them there until the end of the tenancy which has another 3 years left.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

whomitconcerns · 09-10-2017 11:11am

Get legal advice. Do everything by the book and get rid of them asap. No ifs or buts. In three years time you will be left with a shell at best if you don't get rid

09-10-2017 11:32am

Get advice on what is the best and easiest route for evicting them and get on it straight away. You need to get rid of them asap.

mandy2012 · 09-10-2017 12:11pm

Thanks for advice. We were doubting ourselves thinking we were too fussy. I am just so worried about not having a strong enough case if goes to RTB as anything I read is all for the tenant and against the landlord even if tenant in the wrong.

When we went for inspection in evening time 2 rooms conveniently had no light bulbs at all, apparently bulbs went and hadn't got a change to get new ones.

rawn · 09-10-2017 12:23pm

Alden Rapping Napkin wrote:

Get advice on what is the best and easiest route for evicting them and get on it straight away. You need to get rid of them asap.

Jump the gun much?

OP i get that what they did was wrong but do they pay rent on time? Is this the only issue you have with them? Are you taking the house back in the near future? As the bad paint job only affects them right now i would tell them that they have to put in writing that the painting will be fixed before they move out, if you're not looking to take the house back now that gives them potentially years to pay for it. And tell them not to do anything else to the house without your express permission in future.

Cuddlesworth · 09-10-2017 12:26pm

From what you have said so far, it's not going to get better. They will never gain respect for the property. If you want to evict them you are going to need a Lawyer, as they are a social welfare tenant and a single step or word wrong will end up with huge fines for you from the equity ombudsman.

Cuddlesworth · 09-10-2017 12:28pm

rawn wrote: »

Jump the gun much?

OP i get that what they did was wrong but do they pay rent on time? Is this the only issue you have with them? Are you taking the house back in the near future? As the bad paint job only affects them right now i would tell them that they have to put in writing that the painting will be fixed before they move out, if you're not looking to take the house back now that gives them potentially years to pay for it. And tell them not to do anything else to the house without your express permission in future.

Lets go over this so far.

Repainted internal walls without permission. Which cumlinated in

mandy2012 · 09-10-2017 12:30pm

Hi Rawn,

Ye rent paid on time. Its just the tenant not willing to do anything that bothers us. The person said they are doing a 2 year course so will not have any money to do anything. They don't seem willing to come up with any plan not now or in the future. They will not get rid of pet. There are a couple of smaller issues which we can overlook. Yes we have told them no more work on house without our permission.

Zillah · 09-10-2017 12:33pm

Painting a mahogany stairs white?! Cretins.

Get rid of 'em ASAP. The fact that they're so brazen about it makes it worse, really shows they don't even grasp the basic landlord-tenant relationship. Keep the security deposit at the very least.

rawn wrote: »

Jump the gun much?

OP i get that what they did was wrong but do they pay rent on time? Is this the only issue you have with them? Are you taking the house back in the near future? As the bad paint job only affects them right now i would tell them that they have to put in writing that the painting will be fixed before they move out, if you're not looking to take the house back now that gives them potentially years to pay for it. And tell them not to do anything else to the house without your express permission in future.

They've shown they have contempt for the house and total ignorance of appropriate behaviour - even now they are continuing in violation of the tenancy by keeping a pet. They will be a continuing nightmare for the entire period.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 09-10-2017 12:50pm

rawn wrote: »

Jump the gun much?

OP i get that what they did was wrong but do they pay rent on time? Is this the only issue you have with them? Are you taking the house back in the near future? As the bad paint job only affects them right now i would tell them that they have to put in writing that the painting will be fixed before they move out, if you're not looking to take the house back now that gives them potentially years to pay for it. And tell them not to do anything else to the house without your express permission in future.

OP, whatever you do, do not follow this advice, it's awful. You will be kicking yourself down the line. rawn thinks it's perfectly fine to ruin carpet other furniture with paint, and keeping pets against the landlords will, that's fine too. :rolleyes:

Get rid of these tenants asap.

Mycroft H · 09-10-2017 12:57pm

I'm a private tenant and I wouldn't consider these people as good tenants. I'd try getting rid.

Whatever about hanging the odd picture about the place but painting the house and doing a crap job of it is taking the piss.

I'd look at getting rid of them.

__..__ · 09-10-2017 1:00pm

They are testing your resolve. Be a doormat to them now and that's all you'll ever be to them.
They've wrecked your house and told you to fcuk off.

Galadriel · 09-10-2017 1:30pm

rawn wrote: »

Jump the gun much?

OP i get that what they did was wrong but do they pay rent on time? Is this the only issue you have with them? Are you taking the house back in the near future? As the bad paint job only affects them right now i would tell them that they have to put in writing that the painting will be fixed before they move out, if you're not looking to take the house back now that gives them potentially years to pay for it. And tell them not to do anything else to the house without your express permission in future.

What about the pet they won't go rid off?

rawn · 09-10-2017 1:37pm

I absolutely do not think it's ok, i just don't think that the answer to every tenant issue is "evict them"! Tbh OP would probably end up worse off if they overhold, which they will if they're as broke as they claim to be!

The bad paint job needs to be fixed when they move out, not before. Let them live with the bad paint job. Obviously take the money to repaint out of their deposit when they do move out.
I actually forgot about the pet when I replied to the OP. This would be the more immediate issue to me. Dog or cat? Have they damaged the house? Have the neighbors complained?

09-10-2017 1:52pm

rawn wrote: »

I absolutely do not think it's ok, i just don't think that the answer to every tenant issue is "evict them"! Tbh OP would probably end up worse off if they overhold, which they will if they're as broke as they claim to be!

The bad paint job needs to be fixed when they move out, not before. Let them live with the bad paint job. Obviously take the money to repaint out of their deposit when they do move out.
I actually forgot about the pet when I replied to the OP. This would be the more immediate issue to me. Dog or cat? Have they damaged the house? Have the neighbors complained?

You would be incredibly soft (and running your business appallingly) to let the tenants off with their blatant breaking of the rules. What rule will they break next, because you can be guaranteed they will do plenty more things wrong if they are not got rid off.

Repainting a house and ruining a stairs are both severe breaches of a the lease. Pets are banned for good reason by LLs too so no excuse is good enough to justify breaking the terms of the lease, the fact they are being so cheeky also makes it worse.

Get rid of them op and fast.

shaunr68 · 09-10-2017 1:57pm

Galadriel wrote: »

What about the pet they won't go rid off?

Could the OP confirm whether it was made absolutely crystal clear at the beginning of the tenancy and stated in the tenancy agreement that pets were not allowed?

garhjw · 09-10-2017 2:15pm

Get rid of them. They are not showing any respect for your property. I would also be concerned about what else they might do to the house if they would paint a mahogany stairs...

pwurple · 09-10-2017 2:20pm

rawn wrote: »

I absolutely do not think it's ok, i just don't think that the answer to every tenant issue is "evict them"! Tbh OP would probably end up worse off if they overhold, which they will if they're as broke as they claim to be!

The bad paint job needs to be fixed when they move out, not before. Let them live with the bad paint job. Obviously take the money to repaint out of their deposit when they do move out.
I actually forgot about the pet when I replied to the OP. This would be the more immediate issue to me. Dog or cat? Have they damaged the house? Have the neighbors complained?

LOL.
Have you any idea how expensive that paint job will be? For a whole house? You're talking about 800 euro worth of paint at least, and 2k of paint stripping, re-caulking, professional cleaning and possible replacement of carpets, plus THEN the actual painter of another 1.5 -2k.
Unless there is 5k of a deposit, there's no way of getting it.

mandy2012 · 09-10-2017 2:21pm

No it wasn't made clear about pets. Its a RAS tenant who moved from a previous house to our under RAS. I assumed they would know what was in the contract, no pets. It is a lizard type thing in a cage. We have had such conflicting advice from family and friends.

One side is we are very fussy expecting tenant to keep house to the standard we gave it in and that pet is in cage so cant really damage property and that we should just leave them there that we will have to do up property anyway.

Other people saying why let them do what they want in your property that you are paying for and causing further damage.

We are prepared to work with this tenant and have so far. They have even gone so far as to phone RAS about us saying that my husband was bullying them by doing an inspection. Then refusing us a further inspection to follow up, we involved RAS and they phoned tenant telling them to allow inspection. RAS of course have now washed their hands and tenant is saying they need to go to RTB now as there is lack of communication. Just feel like we are banging our head off a wall trying to get through to them.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 09-10-2017 2:24pm

mandy2012 wrote: »

No it wasn't made clear about pets. Its a RAS tenant who moved from a previous house to our under RAS. I assumed they would know what was in the contract, no pets. It is a lizard type thing in a cage. We have had such conflicting advice from family and friends.

One side is we are very fussy expecting tenant to keep house to the standard we gave it in and that pet is in cage so cant really damage property and that we should just leave them there that we will have to do up property anyway.

Other people saying why let them do what they want in your property that you are paying for and causing further damage.

We are prepared to work with this tenant and have so far. They have even gone so far as to phone RAS about us saying that my husband was bullying them by doing an inspection. Then refusing us a further inspection to follow up, we involved RAS and they phoned tenant telling them to allow inspection. RAS of course have now washed their hands and tenant is saying they need to go to RTB now as there is lack of communication. Just feel like we are banging our head off a wall trying to get through to them.

Hmm, now that you say it's a lizard in a cage, I personally wouldn't have any issues with it at all.

It's not a cat or dog which sheds hairs and can damage property. Regardless, your house, your rules.

Whatever you do OP, make sure you do it by the book.

mandy2012 · 09-10-2017 2:34pm

Thanks just needed to hear a few opinions to see if we were being over the top or not.

I have just been onto RTB to see if tenant registered a complaint and yes they did and looked for mediation. So now we have to wait for someone from RTB to contact us to mediate.

09-10-2017 2:39pm

Skyla Ashy Graph wrote: »

Hmm, now that you say it's a lizard in a cage, I personally wouldn't have any issues with it at all.

It's not a cat or dog which sheds hairs and can damage property. Regardless, your house, your rules. .

To be fair - this is exactly right - I kept them for years myself, it's really no different to having a fish tank!

Ms Doubtfire1 · 09-10-2017 2:49pm

would agree with the Lizard. Won't do any damage.
Re law: I do think the same rules apply here as to the private tenancy sector. i don't think you are wrong in stating they are damaging the property and don't want to repair it. I would be pretty sure the RTB will find in your favor and either instruct the tenant to repair the damage or allow you to end the tenancy.
DO run everything through the RTB and call them for advice if you can. This should not happen at all and I can see why many landlords don't want RAS tenants.

Kimbot · 09-10-2017 2:55pm

Well if their lease says no pets then they dont get a choice in wether they have pets there or not, tell them to get rid of the pet or else face eviction for breaking the lease.

rawn · 09-10-2017 3:01pm

mandy2012 wrote:

I have just been onto RTB to see if tenant registered a complaint and yes they did and looked for mediation. So now we have to wait for someone from RTB to contact us to mediate.

Fingers crossed the mediator will tell them to fix the painting /carpet! Keep a copy of your lease at hand and go through each paragraph, point by point, and ask if they understand each point. The best the mediator can do (imo) is get the tenant to agree to a payment plan. I would doubt they would be told to get rid of the pet as it wouldn't bother neighbors or damage the house in any way.

evolving_doors · 09-10-2017 3:09pm

rawn wrote: »

Fingers crossed the mediator will tell them to fix the painting /carpet! Keep a copy of your lease at hand and go through each paragraph, point by point, and ask if they understand each point. The best the mediator can do (imo) is get the tenant to agree to a payment plan. I would doubt they would be told to get rid of the pet as it wouldn't bother neighbors or damage the house in any way.

Mediator will 'suggest' they fix it, do you honestly think they are going to come up with all the money and put things right.... on the basis of a mediators suggestion?
Given what they've told the LL already!

Kimbot · 09-10-2017 3:09pm

rawn wrote: »

I would doubt they would be told to get rid of the pet as it wouldn't bother neighbors or damage the house in any way.

Well if its in the lease for no pets I cant see the RTB telling the tenants to keep the pet as they are activly telling them to break the lease.

Kristopherus · 09-10-2017 3:10pm

mandy2012 wrote: »

Thanks just needed to hear a few opinions to see if we were being over the top or not.

I have just been onto RTB to see if tenant registered a complaint and yes they did and looked for mediation. So now we have to wait for someone from RTB to contact us to mediate.

In the meantime contact a solr that has expertise in this field and bring them to the mediation. Also, inspect your house again & take photos of all the damage. Bring those photos to the mediation meeting.

evolving_doors · 09-10-2017 3:10pm

rawn wrote: »

Fingers crossed the mediator will tell them to fix the painting /carpet! Keep a copy of your lease at hand and go through each paragraph, point by point, and ask if they understand each point. The best the mediator can do (imo) is get the tenant to agree to a payment plan. I would doubt they would be told to get rid of the pet as it wouldn't bother neighbors or damage the house in any way.

Mediator will 'suggest' they fix it, do you honestly think they are going to come up with all the money and put things right.... on the basis of a mediators suggestion?
Given what they've told the LL already!

Also the op's been refused inspection ... I'm sure that's in the agreement too.
Is there something more to hide?

Ms Doubtfire1 · 09-10-2017 3:11pm

Don'

evolving_doors wrote: »

rawn wrote: »

Fingers crossed the mediator will tell them to fix the painting /carpet! Keep a copy of your lease at hand and go through each paragraph, point by point, and ask if they understand each point. The best the mediator can do (imo) is get the tenant to agree to a payment plan. I would doubt they would be told to get rid of the pet as it wouldn't bother neighbors or damage the house in any way.

Mediator will 'suggest' they fix it, do you honestly think they are going to come up with all the money and put things right.... on the basis of a mediators suggestion?
Given what they've told the LL already!

t forget that with a RAS tenant the council pays the rent - if the RTB states they need to pay it back there might be a way to get the money back through the council. if that's not possible OP. I would go for termination of the tenancy due to various breaches of the tenancy act and the lease.

listermint · 09-10-2017 3:12pm

Poor Tenant, But tbf to them Mahogany Staircases are gank so can forgive that much

probably not the shody work they made of it.

mel123 · 09-10-2017 3:16pm

Realistically though, how are they going to fix it? They have already said they dont have the money.
Dont get me wrong, i would be livid if this was me, changing wood colours and ruining carpets, in my opinion the only option would be to get rid of them before they are an even worse headache. BUT, i doubt this will be easy, just by the sounds of the tenant.

Genuine question, how can the tenant rectify the issue? I assume they cant - unless the social welfare steps in because they are a HAP tenant?? Is this possible - i have no experience? So it seems like no matter what, the OP is the loser here.

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-10-2017 3:16pm

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Don't forget that with a RAS tenant the council pays the rent - if the RTB states they need to pay it back there might be a way to get the money back through the council. if that's not possible OP. I would go for termination of the tenancy due to various breaches of the tenancy act and the lease.

The council will not accept liability for the actions of the tenant. The RAS contracts are specifically set up to prevent that from happening. The lease is between the landlord and the tenant and anything that happens with the RTB is agnostic of whether they're a RAS tenant or not.

Kimbot · 09-10-2017 3:18pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The council will not accept liability for the actions of the tenant. The RAS contracts are specifically set up to prevent that from happening. The lease is between the landlord and the tenant and anything that happens with the RTB is agnostic of whether they're a RAS tenant or not.

In this case can the LL take the tenants to Small claims court and recoup the costs?

Cuddlesworth · 09-10-2017 3:20pm

jonnycivic wrote: »

In this case can the LL take the tenants to Small claims court and recoup the costs?

There is no real mechanism to recoup money from social welfare participants.

BrokenArrows · 09-10-2017 3:20pm

rawn wrote: »

Jump the gun much?

OP i get that what they did was wrong but do they pay rent on time? Is this the only issue you have with them? Are you taking the house back in the near future? As the bad paint job only affects them right now i would tell them that they have to put in writing that the painting will be fixed before they move out, if you're not looking to take the house back now that gives them potentially years to pay for it. And tell them not to do anything else to the house without your express permission in future.

Are you mad? They have basically ****ed up the house.
They have painted and then stripped a mahogany staircase causing damage to it. Thats an expensive bit of damage right there.

As for painting everything without permission and then getting a pet without permission (regardless of the type of pet).

The tenants have shown that they dont give a **** about the landlord or the house.

Evict them by the book asap.

Ms Doubtfire1 · 09-10-2017 3:21pm

jonnycivic wrote: »

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The council will not accept liability for the actions of the tenant. The RAS contracts are specifically set up to prevent that from happening. The lease is between the landlord and the tenant and anything that happens with the RTB is agnostic of whether they're a RAS tenant or not.

In this case can the LL take the tenants to Small claims court and recoup the costs?

probably. Not much luck there though - if there's no money there's no money. I'd go for termination of tenancy followed by lawfull eviction if they are not leaving. OP, it might be time to take out an insurance against Tenant damage of the house ( if you haven't already done so)- i don't think this is going to end well.

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-10-2017 3:22pm

jonnycivic wrote: »

In this case can the LL take the tenants to Small claims court and recoup the costs?

No, they would have to go to the RTB followed by the courts. Awards would likely be a small amount from benefits every week, e.g. €5.

spaceHopper · 09-10-2017 3:27pm

As RAS pay the rent can you ask to have somebody from RAS at the mediation or on the phone. The pet is a no issue, they won't damage the house so forget about it, it will only make you look weak/mean for exploiting it.

Sick to damage done and their lack of cooperation in fixing it and inspections. The main issue here is damage to the staircase, that can't be undone cheaply. After that you would be writing off the cost of carpets against tax and have something in the kitty for painting when they move out anyway, would you let a house with tired paint work to the next tenant?

Claw Hammer · 09-10-2017 3:27pm

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

probably. Not much luck there though - if there's no money there's no money. I'd go for termination of tenancy followed by lawfull eviction if they are not leaving. OP, it might be time to take out an insurance against Tenant damage of the house ( if you haven't already done so)- i don't think this is going to end well.

There is no such thing as insurance against tenant damage to house.The only insurance is not to have tenants.

Purple Mountain · 09-10-2017 3:31pm

Very convenient that they could afford paint for the whole house and stairs though..

Ms Doubtfire1 · 09-10-2017 3:32pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is no such thing as insurance against tenant damage to house.The only insurance is not to have tenants.

maybe I found a hole in the market so.:-)

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-10-2017 3:40pm

spaceHopper wrote: »

As RAS pay the rent can you ask to have somebody from RAS at the mediation or on the phone. The pet is a no issue, they won't damage the house so forget about it, it will only make you look weak/mean for exploiting it.

Sick to damage done and their lack of cooperation in fixing it and inspections. The main issue here is damage to the staircase, that can't be undone cheaply. After that you would be writing off the cost of carpets against tax and have something in the kitty for painting when they move out anyway, would you let a house with tired paint work to the next tenant?

http://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/social-housing/rental-accommodation-scheme/rental-accommodation-scheme-information-tenants

'The local authority will be party to this agreement as guarantor of the rent.'

'The main "landlord and tenant" relationship remains between the property owner and the RAS tenant. The local authority acts as agent on behalf of the tenant.'

The local authority's input stops at paying the rent. They do not have any input into tenant-landlord disputes. They will not take part in any mediation or other action before the RTB.

Markcheese · 09-10-2017 3:51pm

O.P. I'd be happy to give up on the " small lizard in a tank", as a sign of reasonableness... But assert no other pets/ cat, dogs etc...

Zillah · 09-10-2017 3:53pm

Purple Mountain wrote: »

Very convenient that they could afford paint for the whole house and stairs though..

Maybe Tommy got his hands on a few tins of paint without asking where they came from?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 09-10-2017 3:59pm

listermint wrote: »

Poor Tenant, But tbf to them Mahogany Staircases are gank so can forgive that much probably not the shody work they made of it.

That's your opinion

mandy2012 · 09-10-2017 4:17pm

Hi

Yes I can see that white staircase is modern and probably looks nicer but in a rental property its just not practical especially where tenant isn't really keeping house clean anyway.

The pet I would give in on as its the kids pet and I'm a softie.

RAS didn't entertain me at all. I didn't hear from them until the tenant phoned them and then they even called out to the house to speak to the tenant. They have now said nothing to do with them as RTB now involved.

I praying that the RTB will see our side.

STB. · 09-10-2017 4:40pm

rawn wrote: »

Jump the gun much?

OP i get that what they did was wrong but do they pay rent on time? Is this the only issue you have with them? Are you taking the house back in the near future? As the bad paint job only affects them right now i would tell them that they have to put in writing that the painting will be fixed before they move out, if you're not looking to take the house back now that gives them potentially years to pay for it. And tell them not to do anything else to the house without your express permission in future.

Are you for real ?

Sounds like something out of Pacific Heights and yet the tenant doesnt know what the problem is and are dictating the pet stays. Not their property of course so they have no respect.

Get rid OP and start the ball rolling soon.

rawn · 09-10-2017 4:47pm

STB. wrote:

Get rid OP and start the ball rolling soon.

Which ground should the OP evict on? I'm not defending the tenant whatsoever, i firmly believe they should fix the damage out of their own pocket. But what other posters are advising here will cost the OP a lot more in the long run!

The grounds for eviction are:

LL selling
LL/family member moving home
Non-payment of rent
Antisocial behavior
End of Part IV rights

Which is the tenant in breach of? And if the OP chooses to evict over the damage, the tenants will sue for wrongful eviction, she most likely win, seeing as they're already on to the RTB about the big bad landlord.

Mediation hasn't taken place yet. See how that goes and take it from there.

dudara · 09-10-2017 4:51pm

A tenancy can be terminated by the landlord if the tenant fails to comply with the "obligations of the tenancy". The OP will need to prove that painting the staircase was a breach of the obligations.

rawn · 09-10-2017 5:23pm

dudara wrote:

A tenancy can be terminated by the landlord if the tenant fails to comply with the "obligations of the tenancy". The OP will need to prove that painting the staircase was a breach of the obligations.

But in an anti-LL court case, would the RTB side with the tenant or the LL, regardless of what it says in the lease? The RTB don't want to evict SW tenants. They'll be straight to the papers.

Tenant no money to fix work they did

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