Harvey Weinstein scandal (Mod warning in op.)

pitifulgod

B0jangles wrote: »

She suffered a great deal for telling the truth, she's perfectly entitled to lash out and be angry because she did as so many here think they all should have done - she told the truth and she was not believed.

For some reason you are more interesting in attacking Rose McGowan than talking about the serial abuser Harvey Weinstein, what's that about?

Also she's not taking a jab at victims in tweets. More directed at those who were aware of what he was doing but didn't have it happen to them.

Ronaldinho

I haven't been following this closely - where are the police in all of this? How many of his transgressions were reported? Were there any investigations over the years? If so, how far did they get and why did it not lead to a conviction?

meeeeh

Ronaldinho wrote: »

I haven't been following this closely - where are the police in all of this? How many of his transgressions were reported? Were there any investigations over the years? If so, how far did they get and why did it not lead to a conviction?

At least one was reported and they actually got a recording of Weinstein talking about one of his transgressions. D.a. didn't want to prosecute due to the victim's past (she was present at one of Berlusconi's bunga bunga parties) and mistakes in procedure. That is official version. It's complete coincidence that Weinstein made some generous donations to DA.

pjohnson

B0jangles wrote: »

She suffered a great deal for telling the truth, she's perfectly entitled to lash out and be angry because she did as so many here think they all should have done - she told the truth and she was not believed.

For some reason you are more interesting in attacking Rose McGowan than talking about the serial abuser Harvey Weinstein, what's that about?

Whats to talk about that prick? He should be locked up with all the other rapists and paedos and other manner of sex offenders. Also its America if they wanted death penalty for him then fair enough. Fucker deserves it. Why are you so bloody terrified of talking about McGowan without the woe is me agenda. What is that about? If Rose had spoke the fuck up sooner it may have put Weinstein where he belongs years ago. Then he wouldnt have had the same power to use over the likes of Cara?


But Rose calls out people who were silent DESPITE herself being silent? She is calling herself out essentially. That is what pissed me off. Thats not her right to shame others after she did the same.

Ellie2008

B0jangles wrote: »

And for those sternly looking down upon those who went along with Weinstein's abuse, the ones who took the bribe and were silenced - try to put yourself in the shoes of a maybe 18 year old kid who dreams of being in films.

You are alone in a room with a man who absolutely has the power get you the lead part in a Star Warse-level movie. All you have to do is play along, just grit your teeth for 20 minutes, do the massage thing like he wants. oh wait, it ends up being quite a bit worse, but it's over now. Even if you are totally horrified at what just happened, who do you tell, who will believe you? There's no H.R. department, no witnesses, no evidence.

The carrot is still there - you did what he wanted and the contract is coming. Do you really feel so morally superior, so secure in your own righteousness that you'd sneer at them for accepting the bribe given that the cost to them of telling the truth would be career suicide, trial by media and in the end, not being believed anyway?

It's not about sneering at anybody. I get that a lot of these actresses were very young but they had a choice - career suicide is still a choice. I do agree with you if they had spoken out I don't think anyone would have listened that doesn't mean they couldn't have walked away, many did.

If you slept with someone to get a film role how outraged can you be?!
I'm sure lots of people regret
decisions they made years ago,
they still made them & in some cases you'd have to assume achieved fame & fortune . Do they now feel so morally superior they feel they can act as if they didn't make that choice.

About feeling morally superior I may well not have turned him down if I knew I'd get that role in Star Wars or whatever, but would I come out years later & act like I had no choice - probably not I think I'd be too embarrassed by my own behaviour.
But as I said I don't blame anyone who walked away for not speaking out I don't expect anyone would have cared to listen.

B0jangles

pjohnson wrote: »

Whats to talk about that prick? He should be locked up with all the other rapists and paedos and other manner of sex offenders. Also its America if they wanted death penalty for him then fair enough. ****er deserves it. Why are you so bloody terrified of talking about McGowan without the woe is me agenda. What is that about? If Rose had spoke the **** up sooner it may have put Weinstein where he belongs years ago. Then he wouldnt have had the same power to use over the likes of Cara?


But Rose calls out people who were silent DESPITE herself being silent? She is calling herself out essentially. That is what pissed me off. Thats not her right to shame others after she did the same.

I'm not terrified of talking about Rose McGowan, I just think it's quite revolting to try to dig around in the past of a person who was a victim of sexual assault to try to find reasons to blame them for what happened, or to find reasons not to believe them along the lines of who she went out with or the clothes she wore sometimes.

pitifulgod

pjohnson wrote: »

Whats to talk about that prick? He should be locked up with all the other rapists and paedos and other manner of sex offenders. Also its America if they wanted death penalty for him then fair enough. Fucker deserves it. Why are you so bloody terrified of talking about McGowan without the woe is me agenda. What is that about? If Rose had spoke the fuck up sooner it may have put Weinstein where he belongs years ago. Then he wouldnt have had the same power to use over the likes of Cara?


But Rose calls out people who were silent DESPITE herself being silent? She is calling herself out essentially. That is what pissed me off. Thats not her right to shame others after she did the same.

She's calling out people who wouldn't say anything as the story was breaking... She also wasn't directing at victims of Weinstein... So maybe cop on with the the victim blaming cause it's horrifying and illustrates why victims of rape are constantly fearful of going public. Somehow, somebody will find a new way to attack their character...

strandroad

pjohnson wrote: »

Whats to talk about that prick? He should be locked up with all the other rapists and paedos and other manner of sex offenders. Also its America if they wanted death penalty for him then fair enough. Fucker deserves it. Why are you so bloody terrified of talking about McGowan without the woe is me agenda. What is that about? If Rose had spoke the fuck up sooner it may have put Weinstein where he belongs years ago. Then he wouldnt have had the same power to use over the likes of Cara?


But Rose calls out people who were silent DESPITE herself being silent? She is calling herself out essentially. That is what pissed me off. Thats not her right to shame others after she did the same.

She was speaking up, it wasn't getting any traction. It's like with Cosby, I remember reading magazine exposes of the allegations many years ago, ten at least. But it only started rolling in the last two years or so. And still many believe him innocent, and the victims to be mercenary opportunists.

B0jangles

Ellie2008 wrote: »

It's not about sneering at anybody. I get that a lot of these actresses were very young but they had a choice - career suicide is still a choice. I do agree with you if they had spoken out I don't think anyone would have listened that doesn't mean they couldn't have walked away, many did.

If you slept with someone to get a film role how outraged can you be?!
I'm sure lots of people regret
decisions they made years ago,
they still made them & in some cases you'd have to assume achieved fame & fortune . Do they now feel so morally superior they feel they can act as if they didn't make that choice.

About feeling morally superior I may well not have turned him down if I knew I'd get that role in Star Wars or whatever, but would I come out years later & act like I had no choice - probably not I think I'd be too embarrassed by my own behaviour.
But as I said I don't blame anyone who walked away for not speaking out I don't expect anyone would have cared to listen.

Career suicide is indeed a choice as you say - an absolutely enormous, terrifying one that you seem to think a very young, probably very naive person should have made on the spur of the moment in an extraordinarily shocking situation to qualify for your sympathy now.

Focussing on what choice they ought to have made in such a situation, instead of the fact that the situation even existed, is a weird way to prioritize.

meeeeh

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.vogue.com/article/cyrus-vance-jr-didnt-prosecute-weinstein-ivanka-donald-trump-jr/amp

Something about prosecutions (or lack of them) of powerful people in New York.

I know Twitter meltdown is a sexy subject to discuss but there are way more important questions that need to be asked and answered.

pjohnson

B0jangles wrote: »

I'm not terrified of talking about Rose McGowan, I just think it's quite revolting to try to dig around in the past of a person who was a victim of sexual assault to try to find reasons to blame them for what happened, or to find reasons not to believe them along the lines of who she went out with or the clothes she wore sometimes.

When did I dig around her past or go on about what she wears who she went out with? I'm not fucking blaming her for him being a creep. Guess ya cant read my posts right.

B0jangles

Oh, don't worry, I've read your posts.

So why are you so determined to keep talking about how Rose McGowan's behaviour, rather than the circumstances which have caused her recent public anger?

Ronaldinho

meeeeh wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.vogue.com/article/cyrus-vance-jr-didnt-prosecute-weinstein-ivanka-donald-trump-jr/amp

Something about prosecutions (or lack of them) of powerful people in New York.

I know Twitter meltdown is a sexy subject to discuss but there are way more important questions that need to be asked and answered.

Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like the Weinstein allegations could be one 'tentacle' of a much, much bigger problem.

Bad sh1t is always going to happen, but at least if you have well-functioning law enforcement & judiciary then there's a good chance that the truth will out and justice will be served.

Ellie2008

B0jangles wrote: »

Career suicide is indeed a choice as you say - an absolutely enormous, terrifying one that you seem to think a very young, probably very naive person should have made on the spur of the moment in an extraordinarily shocking situation to qualify for your sympathy now.

Focussing on what choice they ought to have made in such a situation, instead of the fact that the situation even existed, is a weird way to prioritize.

I feel these debates often turn into posters wanting to be morally superior I have more sympathy for these women than you - I'm "better" than you.

I never said nor implied that the situation should have existed.

pitifulgod

B0jangles wrote: »

Oh, don't worry, I've read your posts.

So why are you so determined to keep talking about how Rose McGowan's behaviour, rather than the circumstances which have caused her recent public anger?

Yep, seems that people are outraged that she's being so outright against Weinstein... When Weinstein is the bloody issue..

neonsofa

B0jangles wrote: »

Career suicide is indeed a choice as you say - an absolutely enormous, terrifying one that you seem to think a very young, probably very naive person should have made on the spur of the moment in an extraordinarily shocking situation to qualify for your sympathy now.

Focussing on what choice they ought to have made in such a situation, instead of the fact that the situation even existed, is a weird way to prioritize.

It's sickening that people are basically saying some of these girls made a calculated and rational decision to sleep with/flirt with/engage in sexual activities with this man in order to make money/further their career.

Years ago I knew an older man who used to be a bit handsy. Any excuse to touch me or try to kiss me, he'd try it. He was just a neighbour, no power over me, no influence, just a sad old man. But yet when he would lunge for a kiss I'd clam up and try to avoid his advance and brush it off rather than tell him to stop. I felt guilty that hes a lonely old man. I felt bad that nobody else bothered to talk to him and if I stood up for myself he would be offended (crazy right?!). On some level i also had this "respect your elders" idea in my head and I felt I couldn't give out to him like I would if a guy in his 20s did the same thing. I felt like "ah he's an old man he doesnt realise" and it was only when a friend pointed everything out to me that I realised he is older, wiser and knows exactly what he is doing. He did not have dementia, or anything that may justify his behaiour, he was just a creepy old man and I absolutely had a right to tell him to stop.

Going way off point here.... What i am saying is, we'd all like to think we'd stand up for ourselves and make the rational decision, but when you're in a situation and it is unexpected you aren't thinking rationally. I certainly wasn't in the above example I mentioned, and that was a non event, just a touchy feely old man, add in the power dynamic and politics of the industry and everything else in the situation with rose and other women, and I can see exactly why they may not have felt able to reject his advances. And I highly doubt it was a rational and calculated decision like people are making it out to be.

B0jangles

^^ That's it - you're in a really weird, unfamiliar situation, you're not sure if you're maybe misreading what's going on and if you make the wrong call you'll look like an over-sensitive fool who just hugely insulted a person who could make or break your whole career.

Something to remember is that Weinstein apparently did this all the time - when he walked into the room, he knew what was going to happen, the victims didn't. So the whole time they are just reacting with disbelief and shock, he's calmly moving along with a well-established, well-honed plan.

tara73

it's so symptomatic that this thread isn't overall anymore about the men-scumbags (are there any women who physically abused a man??) in power in Hollywood and elsewhere, but all about the women who didn't speak up, presumably got involved with HW because of their careers etc bla bla....great distraction from the real culprits. like who are the bad people most here need to point out over again and again: the women who did presumably see above.

it's ridiculous, lame, mysoginistic and kind of desperately trying to distract from the real and first problem, which are the criminal men who think they have a right to abuse people and destroy lives.

pjohnson

tara73 wrote: »

it's so symptomatic that this thread isn't overall anymore about the men-scumbags (are there any women who physically abused a man??) in power in Hollywood and elsewhere, but all about the women who didn't speak up, presumably got involved with HW because of their careers etc bla bla....great distraction from the real culprits. like who are the bad people most here need to point out over again and again: the women who did presumably see above.

it's ridiculous, lame, mysoginistic and kind of desperately trying to distract from the real and first problem, which are the criminal men who think they have a right to abuse people and destroy lives.

I dont think everything is misoginistic. Has anyone actually said Harvey isn't the scumbag? I've seen plenty of people claiming that people have said Harvey isn't the problem but I haven't actually seen anyone say that!

A Little Pony

People should look into how Jennifer Lawrence got the Hunger games role and look at the person who she replaced who was originally set to take the role of Katnis, you will be amazed. That's all I'm saying. ;)

retro:electro

tara73 wrote: »

it's so symptomatic that this thread isn't overall anymore about the men-scumbags (are there any women who physically abused a man??) in power in Hollywood and elsewhere, but all about the women who didn't speak up, presumably got involved with HW because of their careers etc bla bla....great distraction from the real culprits. like who are the bad people most here need to point out over again and again: the women who did presumably see above.

it's ridiculous, lame, mysoginistic and kind of desperately trying to distract from the real and first problem, which are the criminal men who think they have a right to abuse people and destroy lives.

Harvey is a dirty disgusting piece of sh!t. The sight of him makes me want to heave. He's beyond repugnant. But it's not just him. And to claim that this is all just him is being incredibly naive. There is a whole culture at play here, a culture which is rotten from the top down.
It might not be very "PC" or back slapping to say, but it's the truth.

tara73

pjohnson wrote: »

I dont think everything is misoginistic. Has anyone actually said Harvey isn't the scumbag? I've seen plenty of people claiming that people have said Harvey isn't the problem but I haven't actually seen anyone say that!

that's not my point.. please read my post again.

Wibbs

anna080 wrote: »

Harvey is a dirty disgusting piece of sh!t. The sight of him makes me want to heave. He's beyond repugnant. But it's not just him. And to claim that this is all just him is being incredibly naive. There is a whole culture at play here, a culture which is rotten from the top down.
It might not be very "PC" or back slapping to say, but it's the truth.

This. And if people actually want to effect change in the culture going beyond rage being fired at one boogyman that will be yesterdays news soon enough and/or blaming misogyny/men, cause women are always victims narrative then some uncomfortable questions will need to be asked of how such a culture exists and has existed in film and other entertainment industries for so long.

Weinstein does not exist in a vacuum. He had enablers, conscious or unconsciously, actively or passively for nearly 30 years. People. Men and women. There are a lot of women who work in that industry behind the cameras. And just like some men, yes some of them were enablers, conscious or unconsciously, actively or passively in all this. On a day to day working the business basis I'd even be willing to bet Weinstein had more women around him than men. His PA's, accounts people, office staff(which are majority women in that business). Never mind the creative script and production types of which a large chunk are women. Everybody who knew this was going on needs to ask questions of themselves and the industry culture they're a part of. Blame is easy to fire at others, particularly groups of others, but harder to look to oneself and closer to home, but IMHO that's where the real change is going to come from.

Goat the dote

A Little Pony wrote: »

People should look into how Jennifer Lawrence got the Hunger games role and look at the person who she replaced who was originally set to take the role of Katnis, you will be amazed. That's all I'm saying. ;)

Can you elaborate? I’m after finding a few names linked to the Katniss role

I'm sure there's more than one abuser in Hollywood, I'm particularly sickened by the sort of stuff that Corey Feldman has talked about.

But what's really important here is that we thoroughly examine the clothing choices, demeanor, and the functions that the victims attend, in an attempt to establish any hypocrisy. It's crucial we assess what complicity or blame they hold not only for their own abuse, but the abuse of others after them. Only then can we know how truly rotten the culture of Hollywood is.

Yet another thread that focuses on the wrong thing. We know Weinstein and others are abusive animals who have treated kids and adults alike like pieces of meat existing for their enjoyment, but here we are pointing and asking questions of the victims.

strandroad

Candie wrote: »

Yet another thread that focuses on the wrong thing. We know Weinstein and others are abusive animals who have treated kids and adults alike like pieces of meat existing for their enjoyment, but here we are pointing and asking questions of the victims.

Agreed, interesting how his brother or Brad Pitt (who definitely knew) are not skewered here but Rose or Gwyneth (actual victims) are.

Ellie2008

anna080 wrote: »

Harvey is a dirty disgusting piece of sh!t. The sight of him makes me want to heave. He's beyond repugnant. But it's not just him. And to claim that this is all just him is being incredibly naive. There is a whole culture at play here, a culture which is rotten from the top down.
It might not be very "PC" or back slapping to say, but it's the truth.

I think part of the problem around discussing these issues is that certain things are labelled "you can't say that."HW is a horrible man who abused his power but questioning why people went along with it or if their careers benefitted from it's seemingly off limits. As other posters have correctly pointed out a lot of the women were v v young didn't try instigate it and we're probably overwhelmed. But to go along with it get the jobs and not say anything for years and then when someone finally does jump on the outrage bandwagon seems hypocritical. If you are as famous & wealthy as some of these women are you have a platform to speak out.

And Hilary Clinton is now condemning it, how is her husband who she stood by any better than HW? Was Monica L at 22 any less vulnerable than these women. And is she going to refund HW's donations? Monica L was shamed by the media, why?

I'm just hate hypocrites & bandwagon jumping.

There's a difference between bandwagon jumping and "maybe people will finally actually listen and I'm not alone"

pjohnson

strandroad wrote: »

Agreed, interesting how his brother or Brad Pitt (who definitely knew) are not skewered here but Rose or Gwyneth (actual victims) are.

How did Pitt know?

Ellie2008

bluewolf wrote: »

There's a difference between bandwagon jumping and "maybe people will finally actually listen and I'm not alone"

Of course. And to the people who have been trying to speak out for years I'm glad they are finally being heard.