Remapping - box or map?

bear1

So I've made an appointment for next Friday to get the 159 mapped.
But I've been doing some reading and get conflicting arguments as to which is best.
Box or map?

For a map I've been quoted approx 300e which includes the dyno run and supposedly 246bhp with 480nm of torque.
Box I'm looking at around 200e but with 230bhp and 460nm of torque.

Personally I think the map would be better but reviews for boxes say they are better as there isn't a risk of it being wiped out in the event of an ECU issue.

Thoughts?

RootX

bear1 wrote: »

but reviews for boxes say they are better as there isn't a risk of it being wiped out in the event of an ECU issue.
Thoughts?

There are 'boxes' and there are 'tuners'. Even the best of boxes, in my opinion, can't beat a good tune, designed to suit the particular engine with smoother and more useful power delivery, rather than max power/torque.
Any potential issues will also show up during the dyno runs, so my vote goes to reputable tuners over boxes.

*Waiting on the post questioning whether you'll declare the map to insurance

ION08

Remap all the way in my opinion as I believe it tunes more paramaters such as air/fuel ratio rather than tuning boxes which just crank up boost and can make the car smokey.

I’ve had a good few cars remapped without any issues but never a tuning box (wouldnt trust one tbh)

Who are you considering for the remap out of curiosity?

shietpilot

Remap is miles better than a box.

bear1

ION08 wrote: »

Remap all the way in my opinion as I believe it tunes more paramaters such as air/fuel ratio rather than tuning boxes which just crank up boost and can make the car smokey.

I’ve had a good few cars remapped without any issues but never a tuning box (wouldnt trust one tbh)

Who are you considering for the remap out of curiosity?

Ah the remap is being done in Warsaw by a reputable company.
Re the smoking part, wouldn't a remap do that anyway?
I get what everyone is saying that the map is the best buy and I'd agree but isn't there a risk of losing it say if major work needed to be carried out an ecu reset done?

shietpilot

I don't think there are any tuning boxes that can properly make the engine produce more power. Most of them are fooling around with fuel rail pressures, air mass quantity and air temperatures to get more fuel into the engine.

A remap will actually increase the boost pressure that the turbo produces, along with injecting more fuel by increasing injection duration and fuel rail pressure instead of lying to the ECU about how much air is coming into the engine and what the air temperature is.

Upping the boost on the turbo on a remap vs. no upping of boost on the turbo on a tuning box shows a clear performance advantage as well.

bear1

Mm and is there a risk of losing the map?

shietpilot

bear1 wrote: »

Mm and is there a risk of losing the map?

You won't lose the remap unless they decide to install an update on the ECU. The likelihood of that happening is very small anyway. I don't see any reason for a garage to do an ECU update anyway.

bear1

Sound
Have a week to decide to go ahead or not, I'm very curious as what it's producing right now stock.
I'd say I've lost about 20 horses.
Are there any other pitfalls remapping the car? Depending on how you drive it I suppose so take it handy and I shouldn't see too much extra wear and tear

shietpilot

bear1 wrote: »

Sound
Have a week to decide to go ahead or not, I'm very curious as what it's producing right now stock.
I'd say I've lost about 20 horses.
Are there any other pitfalls remapping the car? Depending on how you drive it I suppose so take it handy and I shouldn't see too much extra wear and tear

More wear on the turbo, clutch etc.

You will only be using the extra remap power when you're going full throttle so in normal driving it won't be making any difference. That's the beauty of a remap where more power is added during maximum load request.

Tuning box will be putting in more fuel left right and centre.

bear1

shietpilot wrote: »

More wear on the turbo, clutch etc.

You will only be using the extra remap power when you're going full throttle so in normal driving it won't be making any difference. That's the beauty of a remap where more power is added during maximum load request.

Tuning box will be putting in more fuel left right and centre.

You know you've made your mind up when you start watching remapped versions of your car

Nate--IRL--

This is probably a naive question .... but are there any insurance companies that cover cars that are mapped, without taking your firstborn?

Nate

shietpilot

bear1 wrote: »

You know you've made your mind up when you start watching remapped versions of your car

Only way haha. What's the story with the EGR and DPF on your car? Are they already deleted?

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

This is probably a naive question .... but are there any insurance companies that cover cars that are mapped, without taking your firstborn?

Nate

Most likely not. Declaring modifications to insurance companies is almost impossible in Ireland, but that's a topic for another thread altogether.

bear1

shietpilot wrote: »

Only way haha. What's the story with the EGR and DPF on your car? Are they already deleted?



Most likely not. Declaring modifications to insurance companies is almost impossible in Ireland, but that's a topic for another thread altogether.

The egr hasn't been deleted but cleaned up and the manifold has been replaced with a brand new one.
The dpf I suspect has been removed but haven't fully investigated it.
But I do so many km per year that I don't want to remove it until it actually goes pop.
So remapped it would be with a functioning egr and dpf

shietpilot

bear1 wrote: »

The egr hasn't been deleted but cleaned up and the manifold has been replaced with a brand new one.
The dpf I suspect has been removed but haven't fully investigated it.
But I do so many km per year that I don't want to remove it until it actually goes pop.
So remapped it would be with a functioning egr and dpf

DPF will sure as hell go pop very fast with a remap so you may as well get it deleted with the remap.

bear1

shietpilot wrote: »

DPF will sure as hell go pop very fast with a remap so you may as well get it deleted with the remap.

Would it? Doesn't its function remain the same?
If I were to do the delete then I'm looking at adding an extra 3 to 400e extra on top of that.

shietpilot

bear1 wrote: »

Would it? Doesn't its function remain the same?
If I were to do the delete then I'm looking at adding an extra 3 to 400e extra on top of that.

You will be outputting more smoke with a remap which will probably clog the DPF. You're also pushing the turbo for more boost which will increase exhaust gas temperature which could be reduced by getting rid of back pressure (e.g. getting rid of the DPF).

It doesn't really make sense to keep it.

bear1

shietpilot wrote: »

You will be outputting more smoke with a remap which will probably clog the DPF. You're also pushing the turbo for more boost which will increase exhaust gas temperature which could be reduced by getting rid of back pressure (e.g. getting rid of the DPF).

It doesn't really make sense to keep it.

Think I'll have to get onto the mapper and ask what sort of gains are there with the dpf in place.
As the why I understand it is that these cars are usually detuned to meet eu regulations so bringing the power back to what it could have been should let the dpf work as usual.
Especially if I took it handy most of the time.
Besides, worst case scenario it breaks in a few months and I can have it removed properly and mapped further.

FR85

To see if the DPF has been deleted see if there is any soot around the exhaust pipes, if it seems clean then it's still in place.

As mentioned there is no real point in getting a map and leaving the DPF in place as it will prematurely clog, put you in to limp and then you'll have to get it removed OR put the car back to standard.

Even a DPF delete is seen as a mod with insurance companies, I tried to explain that by doing the delete I was purely trying to preserve the life of the engine as diesel was filling the sump during re-gens and it was doing the engine no good. This was on a Merc Sprinter Van so it wasn't for performance reasons!!
Every 3 weeks the "oil high" light was coming on and then the van would start filling the place with white smoke and horrific fumes in the cab, I even went down the health and safety route and they were having none of it.

Irishcrx

I had the 159 TBI remapped a few weeks ago with no issues , it was quick at 200 HP and it's rocket at 250HP...like said in normal driving it's business as usual with more pull low down and when you step on the gas it reacts far quicker and throws you back into the seat as it pulls...worth doing the map.

The ECU can only store one map at a time you won't lose that map once it's done.

bear1

FR85 wrote: »

To see if the DPF has been deleted see if there is any soot around the exhaust pipes, if it seems clean then it's still in place.

As mentioned there is no real point in getting a map and leaving the DPF in place as it will prematurely clog, put you in to limp and then you'll have to get it removed OR put the car back to standard.

Even a DPF delete is seen as a mod with insurance companies, I tried to explain that by doing the delete I was purely trying to preserve the life of the engine as diesel was filling the sump during re-gens and it was doing the engine no good. This was on a Merc Sprinter Van so it wasn't for performance reasons!!
Every 3 weeks the "oil high" light was coming on and then the van would start filling the place with white smoke and horrific fumes in the cab, I even went down the health and safety route and they were having none of it.

The pipes seem a bit sooty inside and it does throw out smoke when it's being thrashed but it's mostly visible at night with the lights of cars behind me.
When I got the car the flaps were jammed open which is why I'm thinking if the DPF was removed.

Irishcrx wrote: »

I had the 159 TBI remapped a few weeks ago with no issues , it was quick at 200 HP and it's rocket at 250HP...like said in normal driving it's business as usual with more pull low down and when you step on the gas it reacts far quicker and throws you back into the seat as it pulls...worth doing the map.

The ECU can only store one map at a time you won't lose that map once it's done.

What sort of NM are you running now?
I think my issue is the utter weight of the car, the Q4 system is pretty heavy and grips a lot so I lose a bit of power over a regular fwd car.
But... I think 246bhp should more than make up for it

Blazer

Remap definitely.
I had my 520D remapped before by about 40hp and it was like night and day.
Currently trying to resist the urge to remap my 525D which can go from 204 to 300hp although I'd only go to 260 or so.

selectamatic

Out with the dpf and blank the egr too. You're as well do it right the first time. Maybe even go custom free flowing exhaust if cash allows?

Id definitely go for the custom remap especially given that yours is a 4wd. If your clutch is up to it you should be able to ustlise more torque than the fwd variants so your tuner should take this into account. it'd compensate nicely for the fact its a heavier car too.

bear1

selectamatic wrote: »

Out with the dpf and blank the egr too. You're as well do it right the first time. Maybe even go custom free flowing exhaust if cash allows?

Id definitely go for the custom remap especially given that yours is a 4wd. If your clutch is up to it you should be able to ustlise more torque than the fwd variants so your tuner should take this into account. it'd compensate nicely for the fact its a heavier car too.

Exhaust I won't manage and with it's dual pipes I think they are good enough.
Good point about doing it right.
Clutch and box well up for it and then engine had a good going over 2 weeks ago and it's 100% good.
I won't go mad with the power, I think 246 is a good amount.

ION08

Blazer wrote: »

Remap definitely.
I had my 520D remapped before by about 40hp and it was like night and day.
Currently trying to resist the urge to remap my 525D which can go from 204 to 300hp although I'd only go to 260 or so.

Not too clued up on beemers but nearly +100bhp gain from a remap seems a bit optimisc?

300bhp sounds more probable from a 530d..

shietpilot

selectamatic wrote: »

Out with the dpf and blank the egr too. You're as well do it right the first time. Maybe even go custom free flowing exhaust if cash allows?

Id definitely go for the custom remap especially given that yours is a 4wd. If your clutch is up to it you should be able to ustlise more torque than the fwd variants so your tuner should take this into account. it'd compensate nicely for the fact its a heavier car too.

You don't even have to blank the EGR. The mapper will no doubt adjust the EGR map to make the EGR valve always closed. Pretty much standard procedure on diesel remaps.

selectamatic

ION08 wrote: »

Not too clued up on beemers but nearly +100bhp gain from a remap seems a bit optimisc?

300bhp sounds more probable from a 530d..

The 3.0 525d's respond very well to a remap, up near 300bhp is their limit but it is very much possible.

bear1

So I think I now know why the car felt like it needed a remap.
It was hissing a lot and then once I looked under the car and revving the engine I could see black smoke coming down from the engine.
So I've a fecking crack somewhere...

bazz26

Or a snake. :pac:

bear1

Jaysis it's awful early for those types of jokes

bear1

Booked in tomorrow morning for an egr delete and remap.
Tuner said they can increase it by 25% but I'm pretty sceptical unless they mean with the egr deleted too.

rabbitinlights

Where are you getting it done?

grogi

bear1 wrote: »

Re the smoking part, wouldn't a remap do that anyway?

Almost nobody would do any sort of emissions testing.

bear1 wrote: »

I get what everyone is saying that the map is the best buy and I'd agree but isn't there a risk of losing it say if major work needed to be carried out an ecu reset done?

No. What's more, a reputable garage will typically re-load the program for free should you need it.

shietpilot wrote: »

I don't think there are any tuning boxes that can properly make the engine produce more power. Most of them are fooling around with fuel rail pressures, air mass quantity and air temperatures to get more fuel into the engine.

And is it that bad?

If the box knows the engine rpms, air temperature and engine temperature, it can fool the ECU to inject exactly as much fuel as it is desired.

Sure, you'll get additional soot - but nobody really drivers 100% time in the tweaked range.

A remap will actually increase the boost pressure that the turbo produces

Only when the boost controller is ECU controlled. And I am not really sure that it is safer for the engine than just extending the injection times.

shietpilot wrote: »

DPF will sure as hell go pop very fast with a remap so you may as well get it deleted with the remap.

If the map is done by increasing the amount of air, there will be no negative impact on the DPF.

bear1

rabbitinlights wrote: »

Where are you getting it done?

Place called MAS tuning here in Warsaw. 4.8/5 and a lot of good reviews.
Workshop looks ****ty but inside they were working on a corvette when I entered so it gave me some confidence.
All in all about 2 hours and 250e approx.

Irishcrx

Good luck , it'll be fine don't worry re-mapping is pretty standard these days and they check emission levels while doing the map and ensure it's in line. I NCT'd mine after the re-map and emissions were really low , low idle was 0.01 % or something.

NM increased from 320nm to 365 nm on remap at 250 HP.

grogi

Irishcrx wrote: »

I NCT'd mine after the re-map and emissions were really low , low idle was 0.01 % or something.

You don't really tweak idle parameters, do you?!

shietpilot

grogi wrote: »

If the map is done by increasing the amount of air, there will be no negative impact on the DPF.

Which is never the case on diesel maps. Boost/fuel pressure/injection duration is always increased.

grogi wrote: »

You don't really tweak idle parameters, do you?!

EGR is usually mapped out which changes idle parameters.

grogi

shietpilot wrote: »

Which is never the case on diesel maps. Boost/fuel pressure/injection duration is always increased.

Are you now saying that a diesel remap is no better than a box?!

If the increased amount of fuel goes with increase amount of air, there will be no effect on DPF. If they butcher the engine, there will be heaps of soot or NOx.

shietpilot wrote: »

EGR is usually mapped out which changes idle parameters.

And is EGR used at idle?

ION08

250 euro seems a bit steep for Poland no?

Is it getting mapped on a dyno or stationary?

grogi

ION08 wrote: »

250 euro seems a bit steep for Poland no?

Cheap prices in Poland are a myth. Dodgy independent around the corner might be cheaper than one here, but anyone with experience and reputation is charging top dollars.

Servicing at the dealer is not cheaper either - they are typically much more flexible when it comes to parts though - you can bring your own oils, filters etc - specs et al will be inspected and if they are in spec, warranty is kept. Very few dealers would entertain something similar here, though I know one that does.

Is it getting mapped on a dyno or stationary?

No half-self-respecting garage in Poland is doing stationary remaps.

shietpilot

grogi wrote: »

Are you now saying that a diesel remap is no better than a box?!

Where did I say that?

A tuning box will just increase permanently lie about the amount of air coming into the engine and/or tap into the fuel rail to say the fuel pressure is lower than it really is to achieve more fuel.

A remap does this in the full load section of a driver's wish map. So no, it's not better than a remap.

grogi wrote: »

If the increased amount of fuel goes with increase amount of air, there will be no effect on DPF. If they butcher the engine, there will be heaps of soot or NOx.

Yes but that's not how mappers make remaps. Stoichiometric fuel to air ratio for diesel is 14.5 to 1. Diesel engines will produce excessive smoke from ratios as high as 18 to 1. This means you can gain a lot of power by just changing the AFR to run closer to stoichiometric ratio with the added negative of more smoke.

So while "air" increases, fuel increases even more.

grogi wrote: »

And is EGR used at idle?

Yes, EGR is used at idle and part-throttle and it is closed on higher loads.

bear1

ION08 wrote: »

250 euro seems a bit steep for Poland no?

Is it getting mapped on a dyno or stationary?

It's not as cheap here as people think.
IF I was having the DPF also done then it would be closer to 400e.
EGR delete is 70/75e approx and the map is about 150e but I bet the cost goes up.
I'm pretty sure this is on a dyno.

grogi

shietpilot wrote: »

Yes, EGR is used at idle and part-throttle and it is closed on higher loads.

I was under the impression it is used only at part-throttle. You seem to be farily confident of that, I'll accept it

shietpilot

grogi wrote: »

I was under the impression it is used only at part-throttle. You seem to be farily confident of that, I'll accept it

Normally it's closed at idle until the engine warms up a bit. Once the engine is warmed it's perfect to open EGR at idle because the engine is under no load and NOx in traffic is reduced.

bear1

My main concern is if I'm opening Pandora's box doing this
Have so many questions, what if they make a balls of it? What if it's not the same afterwards...

shietpilot

You could always bring a USB flash drive and ask them to save the factory map onto it. It only takes a megabyte or so of space. Then if you don't like it you could come back and ask them to flash that factory map.

grogi

bear1 wrote: »

What if it's not the same afterwards...

That's the whole point, right?!

bear1

grogi wrote: »

That's the whole point, right?!

I meant in a bad way..

ION08

shietpilot wrote: »

You could always bring a USB flash drive and ask them to save the factory map onto it. It only takes a megabyte or so of space. Then if you don't like it you could come back and ask them to flash that factory map.

Its usual procedure for remapping places to save thr original map in case the customer isnt satisfied or if something goes wrong.

Bear1 just ask the mapping place if they save the original file for peace of mind and stop being such a worrier.

Its a remap not a new turbo.

I dont mean this in a bad way but i would be worried less about the remap and more about your cars condition.

The Dyno is not kind to the car and if there are any underlying issues or weaknesses these will be brought to the surface.

You already mentioned you had a “crack somehwere” ...... also, its an Alfa :P (Again no offence)

In your case i would probably prefer a stationary remap (thats why i asked if stationary or dyno)

166man

My 159 2.4 has an EGR/DPF delete and a remap. 240bhp odd I think it was producing.

They're not a light car but put the foot down and it will really get going quickly. Reign in the right foot and mine does 1000km to a tank of fuel.

Eat your heart out BMW 520d.

selectamatic

166man wrote: »

Eat your heart out BMW 520d.

Ya'd need to be trying that against a mapped 525d overtaking slow cars is no craic :P