Interclub team formats & handicap brackets

Seve OB

Recently been cut so having played PP for the last few years I'm to good for the team next year So what can I play in???

I figured maybe we can have a thread, maybe keep a master table or something up the top with the different options.

I'll kick it off with the only one I really know about and if you want to add anything I can keep the table updated.


Competition Run By Format Location Handicap From Handicap to Handicap Rules Starts
Pierce Purcell GUI Straight Foresomes Reginal, then Provincial, then All Ireland 12 p/y No Max Minimum combined 27 April/May

Ronney

Plenty of threads on this before. At 10/11 you'd be Jimmy Bruen Samr format as PP but lower H/C and also depending on where you live if in leinster you'd be Metro/Provincial towns for Singles and Barton Cup for Team also

Senior Cup - 5 on a team, off scratch, singles strokeplay initially to qualify and then singles matchplay after that.
Barton Shield - 4 on a team, two pairs of foursomes, off scratch
Junior Cup - 5 on a team, lowest h/cap of 5 (in previous year), singles strokeplay initially to qualify and then singles matchplay after that.
Jimmy Bruen - 10 on a team, 5 pairs of foursomes, minimum combined h/cap of a pair of 17, the lowest allowed being 6 (again, previous year handicaps). Foursomes strokeplay to qualify and foursomes matchplay after that.
Barton Cup - 10 on a team, 5 pairs of foursomes, minimum combined h/cap of a pair of 14 with no lower limits. Foursomes matchplay all the way baby.
Pierce Purcell is a combined 27 with the lowest being 12... again 10 on a team, foursomes, strokeplay to qualify and then matchplay.
Metropolitan Trophy / Provincial Towns Cup - 9 on a team, singles matchplay, lowest h/cap of 9. Metro is in Dublin, Provincial Towns for those outside The Pale. Both competitions are run the same but don't mix. Would be nice to have the winners of each competition meet in a further final!
Irish Mixed Foursomes - Combined minimum of 19, Foursomes matchplay, Man & Woman, shots are given/received depending on handicaps.

slingerz

I've heard that they are changing the brackets for these for the coming year? Anyone else hear that? lowest of 11 for PP and combined 26, lowest of 5 for Bruen and combined 16 etc. junior cup lowest of 4 etc.

clog

slingerz wrote: »

I've heard that they are changing the brackets for these for the coming year? Anyone else hear that? lowest of 11 for PP and combined 26, lowest of 5 for Bruen and combined 16 etc. junior cup lowest of 4 etc.

The entry forms for next years comp's are already out to the clubs and they make no mention of these changes.

Saying that though the 2018 GUI tournament conditions book is the guide for all the comps and I haven't seen one yet.

fred funk }{

slingerz wrote: »

I've heard that they are changing the brackets for these for the coming year? Anyone else hear that? lowest of 11 for PP and combined 26, lowest of 5 for Bruen and combined 16 etc. junior cup lowest of 4 etc.

That would be a welcome addition as a 4 HC is kinda no man's land. Too low for Junior Cup and too high for the scratch comps.

Rikand

If junior cup drops to 4 I'll never get on it again. We have a scatter of 4's in the club

fred funk }{

Rikand wrote: »

If junior cup drops to 4 I'll never get on it again. We have a scatter of 4's in the club

I haven't played JC yet and was looking forward to it this year but missed it for personal reasons. I've dropped to 4 now so would love it if the new lower limit was 4.

Rikand

I'll actually be available for jimmy bruen next year. First time I've been available for it in about 10 years

Of course if it drops to 5 I won't be good enough for that team either

slingerz

i heard about these changes earlier in the year aruond the time the prelimary rounds of the Bruen were on. Now never heard it confirmed but the idea was that those off 4 were in no mans land in a lot of clubs so it would give them a chance to play interclub comps

Seve OB

Competition Run By Format Location Handicap From Handicap to Handicap Rules Starts
Pierce Purcell GUI 5 pairs straight Foresomes. Strokes to qualify then Matchplay knockout Reginal, then Provincial, then All Ireland 12 p/y No Max Minimum combined 27 April/May
Senior Cup 5 on a team, off scratch, singles strokeplay initially to qualify and then singles matchplay after that.
Barton Shield 4 on a team, two pairs of foursomes, off scratch
Junior Cup 5 on a team, singles strokeplay initially to qualify and then singles matchplay after that. 5 p/y
Jimmy Bruen 5 pairs of foursomes. Strokeplay to qualify and foursomes matchplay after that. 6 p/y Minimum combined 17
Barton Cup 5 pairs of foursomes matchplay all the way baby. no lower Minimum combined 14
Metropolitan Trophy 9 on a team, singles matchplay. Dublin 9
Provincial Towns Cup 9 on a team, singles matchplay. Outside the Pale 9
Irish Mixed Foursomes Foursomes matchplay, Man & Woman, shots are given/received depending on handicaps. Minimum combined 19




cheers guys

martinkop

GUI ALL-IRELAND FOUR-BALL

5 pairs of fourball matchplay

Regional, then Provincial, then All Ireland

Handicap from 16 (over 30 yrs old), Minimum combined 36

April/May

ridonkulous

slingerz wrote: »

i heard about these changes earlier in the year aruond the time the prelimary rounds of the Bruen were on. Now never heard it confirmed but the idea was that those off 4 were in no mans land in a lot of clubs so it would give them a chance to play interclub comps

It has been proposed before and defeated at least once. I'd love it to happen myself but I wouldn't hold my breath.

mighty magpie

Planning on moving clubs myself. Joined my current club at the start of 2017 and my lowest h/c was 5.0.

Can i play junior cup at my new club? Is there a good chance it's a closed shop for any new members?

SEORG

mighty magpie wrote: »

Planning on moving clubs myself. Joined my current club at the start of 2017 and my lowest h/c was 5.0.

Can i play junior cup at my new club? Is there a good chance it's a closed shop for any new members?

As long as you have 4 counting cards in for 2017 and didn't go below 4.5 you are eligible to play Junior Cup for your new club.

The closed shop is a question for the team manager I would think. Can't imagine you would be excluded if you are good enough.

mighty magpie

SEORG wrote: »

As long as you have 4 counting cards in for 2017 and didn't go below 4.5 you are eligible to play Junior Cup for your new club.

The closed shop is a question for the team manager I would think. Can't imagine you would be excluded if you are good enough.

yeah more than enough cards in. the bigger question probably is how my handicap will travel to the new course. longer and potentially more difficult.

Webbs

For the mixed foursomes the max combined is 27 so a max of 4 shots can be given in a match.

Poker Face

slingerz wrote: »

I've heard that they are changing the brackets for these for the coming year? Anyone else hear that? lowest of 11 for PP and combined 26, lowest of 5 for Bruen and combined 16 etc. junior cup lowest of 4 etc.

Going to be voted on next month.

https://www.golfnet.ie/news/gui/2730/gui-clubs-to-decide-on-inter-club-proposals

Rikand

Poker Face wrote: »

Going to be voted on next month.

https://www.golfnet.ie/news/gui/2730/gui-clubs-to-decide-on-inter-club-proposals

I'd agree to them all except changing pierce purcell to scotch foursomes

mighty magpie

https://www.golfnet.ie/news/gui/leinster/2774/will-your-club-be-represented

This took place last night. Any news from it?

RGS

Attended the Leinster ADM last night,

As these changes affected national Competitions all branches must vote on them.

The other branches are holding their ADMS tonight tomorrow and Thursday.

Results will be collected and returned to GUI HQ and may be announced on Friday.

mighty magpie

Are you able to share the results of the following?

14.5 Junior Cup 5 to 4
14.6 Jimmy Bruen 6 to 5
14.12 Qualifying comps from 4 to 10

ShriekingSheet

Rikand wrote: »

I'd agree to them all except changing pierce purcell to scotch foursomes

I thought this was a great shout. Watched a good bit of it recently. The strokes qualifying in particular is a mess. Even the #1 qualifying team had 7/8/9s on the cards.

Softening (and probably quickening) up the competition for the teen handicaps looks like a good call from what I’ve seen.

RGS

mighty magpie wrote: »

Are you able to share the results of the following?

14.5 Junior Cup 5 to 4
14.6 Jimmy Bruen 6 to 5
14.12 Qualifying comps from 4 to 10

Afraid not Leinster did not announce the leinster results last night.

Not much discussion so hard to gauge support or otherwise for the proposals.

FixdePitchmark

fred funk }{ wrote: »

That would be a welcome addition as a 4 HC is kinda no man's land. Too low for Junior Cup and too high for the scratch comps.

Agree with this - the idea of a 4 handicap player on Senior cup was off the wall.

Welcome change for me, but I think in general a good move if the case.

fred funk }{

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Agree with this - the idea of a 4 handicap player on Senior cup was off the wall.

Welcome change for me, but I think in general a good move if the case.

Me too as I haven't played junior cup yet and dropped to 4 this year. Really is no man's land.

Russman

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

- the idea of a 4 handicap player on Senior cup was off the wall.
.

Not so sure I agree with this Fix. I've been part of a team of 4 handicappers that once beat a high profile team who's combined handicap was something like +2. I think we had a 3, three 4s and a 5 from memory. It happens (sometimes). Too many teams have scratch men who are realistically maybe decent 3s IMO. I think if a club wants to enter their lowest guys into a competition, then fair enough. Obviously within reason of course, but 4 is hardly stretching it.

FixdePitchmark

Russman wrote: »

Not so sure I agree with this Fix. I've been part of a team of 4 handicappers that once beat a high profile team who's combined handicap was something like +2. I think we had a 3, three 4s and a 5 from memory. It happens (sometimes). Too many teams have scratch men who are realistically maybe decent 3s IMO. I think if a club wants to enter their lowest guys into a competition, then fair enough. Obviously within reason of course, but 4 is hardly stretching it.

But most clubs are going to have a good batch of lads from scratch to 3.

Not sure a 4 handicap player or say a guy who just hit 4 once in the year has a role in team.

I'd say your describing an exception with your win - fair play.
You could have had a batch of very very good 3/4/5 players.

To extrapolate your point - a guy off 4/5 could realistically be a decent 7/8.

I just think the gap from 4 to say scratch/1/2 is just too big.

fred funk }{

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But most clubs are going to have a good batch of lads from scratch to 3.

Not sure a 4 handicap player or say a guy who just hit 4 once in the year has a role in team.

I'd say your describing an exception with your win - fair play.
You could have had a batch of very very good 3/4/5 players.

To extrapolate your point - a guy off 4/5 could realistically be a decent 7/8.

I just think the gap from 4 to say scratch/1/2 is just too big.

I agree. A 4 HC can beat anyone on their day but there's a massive gulf between a 4 and 0 or even +2.

slingerz

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But most clubs are going to have a good batch of lads from scratch to 3.

Not sure a 4 handicap player or say a guy who just hit 4 once in the year has a role in team.

I'd say your describing an exception with your win - fair play.
You could have had a batch of very very good 3/4/5 players.

To extrapolate your point - a guy off 4/5 could realistically be a decent 7/8.

I just think the gap from 4 to say scratch/1/2 is just too big.

Pretty sure that my clubs Senior cup team has 6 handicappers in it.

Now they are not a successful club but there are plenty more instances of more 'rural' clubs not having the number of players at a low handicap for these teams.

I do know examples of the 4 man being in no mans land in certain clubs, even a 3 man not being part of the team whereas they'd be a cornerstone for my club

slingerz

fred funk }{ wrote: »

I agree. A 4 HC can beat anyone on their day but there's a massive gulf between a 4 and 0 or even +2.

often wondered this.

I would see a scratch golfer in my club equivalent to a 3/4 handicapper in a course like Tralee/Lahinch etc. I would imagine the home course has a considerable influence on the capability of a player at each handicap

mighty magpie

Guys, how do the pairs for jimmy bruen usually get matched up?

Would most pairs have a low man and a high man e.g. 6 & 11, 7 & 10? and the minority have two guys at the same level 8&9, 9&9 etc?

Would pairs with a combined h/c of 20 and over be very rare?

ShriekingSheet

It's a good change.

If you're fielding a couple of 4 handicaps in Senior Cup and Barton Shield, you have no chance.

That said, at the other extreme end, clubs with very, very good players always seem to be missing some of them at one stage or another during these events due to playing abroad etc. Or if they do play, I've heard a few cases of top guys just showing up on the day without a practice round, due to other schedule commitments. And you'd have to question how genuinely interested some of them are if their other events are major am championships.

You hear a lot of people saying if you don't have 5 plus handicaps forget about it, but I'm not so sure. 5 guys with a combined handicap of 5 who are motivated and focused on the event and put prep into the course can be very competitive I think. Which is a great thing for working men, as opposed to full time amateurs.

ShriekingSheet

mighty magpie wrote: »

Guys, how do the pairs for jimmy bruen usually get matched up?

Would most pairs have a low man and a high man e.g. 6 & 11, 7 & 10? and the minority have two guys at the same level 8&9, 9&9 etc?

Would pairs with a combined h/c of 20 and over be very rare?

There's no hard and fast rule, but clubs often try and get their best (6 handicap) players on the team sheet, and then match them with decent 11s that can keep the ball in play.

However, every club has a different set of players to work with, so if you had very few 6/7s and loads of 9s then you need to do what suits your club, rather than trying to fit a common formula for the sake of it.

Combined 20 is not outrageous, but they'd want to be very good for their handicap, juniors coming down or similar. And you wouldn't be competitive with more than one or two pairs off 19+. You'd get away with a 20 and a 19 pair, provided the other 3 were good 17s.

Russman

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

If you're fielding a couple of 4 handicaps in Senior Cup and Barton Shield, you have no chance.

You probably don't have a chance of winning it outright, that's fair enough. But with a little bit of luck, you can certainly get through a round or two. A good 4 or 5 playing well will usually give most scratch guys a decent game.
IMO if a club only has, say 3 or 4 handicappers as their lowest, I don't think they should be excluded. The club might well choose not to enter, but if they do, let the "good" teams go out and beat them and take their chances.

Ronney

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

There's no hard and fast rule, but clubs often try and get their best (6 handicap) players on the team sheet, and then match them with decent 11s that can keep the ball in play.

However, every club has a different set of players to work with, so if you had very few 6/7s and loads of 9s then you need to do what suits your club, rather than trying to fit a common formula for the sake of it.

Combined 20 is not outrageous, but they'd want to be very good for their handicap, juniors coming down or similar. And you wouldn't be competitive with more than one or two pairs off 19+. You'd get away with a 20 and a 19 pair, provided the other 3 were good 17s.

As mentioned above your likely to see a higher combined pair where one is having a good year and has shot down the handicaps. Common enough to see a junior go from say 12 to 5/6 after their Junior cert as they have free time in Transition year and are at the growth spurt age too.

jtown

Waiting patiently for ADM results of voting for handicap changes :D:D

mighty magpie

https://www.golfnet.ie/news/gui/2790/clubs-vote-for-big-changes

slingerz

mighty magpie wrote: »

Guys, how do the pairs for jimmy bruen usually get matched up?

Would most pairs have a low man and a high man e.g. 6 & 11, 7 & 10? and the minority have two guys at the same level 8&9, 9&9 etc?

Would pairs with a combined h/c of 20 and over be very rare?

Apparently its dropping to combined 15 so going forward combined h/c of 20 will be rare

will depend on the club, bigger clubs will have more choice,. Smaller clubs could be a combo of anything really

fred funk }{

mighty magpie wrote: »

https://www.golfnet.ie/news/gui/2790/clubs-vote-for-big-changes

Great stuff. All passed - Junior cup for me next year (if I get picked )

paulos53

Interesting that all 4 provinces were in favour of changing the Purcell handicap limits but it was 2 for and 2 against changing the Bruen Handicaps.
11 handicappers would have had a busy inter-club season if only 1 motion had passed.

Also Leinster were the only province in favour of changing the Purcell to Scotch Foursomes

Golfgraffix

paulos53 wrote: »

Interesting that all 4 provinces were in favour of changing the Purcell handicap limits but it was 2 for and 2 against changing the Bruen Handicaps.
11 handicappers would have had a busy inter-club season if only 1 motion had passed.

Also Leinster were the only province in favour of changing the Purcell to Scotch Foursomes

Fair bit of voting power in Leinster, completely swung the PP format vote alright. I was at the ADM last Monday and there was very little discussion around most of these. I am glad the change for returned cards of 3 to 10 was not carried

Full results here https://www.golfnet.ie/News%20Listing%20Assets/Results%20of%20Motions.pdf

Russman

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I am glad the change for returned cards of 3 to 10 was not carried

Have to say I was disappointed that didn't pass.

The Rape of Lucretia

Russman wrote: »

Have to say I was disappointed that didn't pass.

More than disappointed for me. Utterly disgusted.

With handicapped team golf rotten to the core with dodgy handicaps, this was a super proposal. No, it wasnt a cure all for the determined handicap fixer. But it would have been a serious step in the right direction. How can it possibly be defended that a player for GUI national competitions should not have to have a perfectly reasonably 10 cards in a year giving credibility to some reasonable maintenance of an accurate handicap ?
The delegates should hang their heads in shame. The unspoken subtext goes "ah, but we couldnt have 10 cards. We struggle enough to get Joe Bloggs to get 4 cards in, and we need him in the team, he is always reliable to get a win"
Utterly indefensible decision, and even having faced it and voted it down confirms the hypocrisy and crookedness.

My contempt for anyone playing team golf, the captains of them, and the clubs endorsing the nonsense, has been ratcheted up big time this week.

Any respect for your self as a personal of any morality whatsoever ? Dont touch GUI interclub golf with a bargepole then.

FixdePitchmark

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

More than disappointed for me. Utterly disgusted.

With handicapped team golf rotten to the core with dodgy handicaps, this was a super proposal. No, it wasnt a cure all for the determined handicap fixer. But it would have been a serious step in the right direction. How can it possibly be defended that a player for GUI national competitions should not have to have a perfectly reasonably 10 cards in a year giving credibility to some reasonable maintenance of an accurate handicap ?
The delegates should hang their heads in shame. The unspoken subtext goes "ah, but we couldnt have 10 cards. We struggle enough to get Joe Bloggs to get 4 cards in, and we need him in the team, he is always reliable to get a win"
Utterly indefensible decision, and even having faced it and voted it down confirms the hypocrisy and crookedness.

My contempt for anyone playing team golf, the captains of them, and the clubs endorsing the nonsense, has been ratcheted up big time this week.

Any respect for your self as a personal of any morality whatsoever ? Dont touch GUI interclub golf with a bargepole then.

Would you say every single event ?

Some are played to scratch anyway.

The Rape of Lucretia

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Would you say every single event ?

Some are played to scratch anyway.

Agree fully. No problem with the scratch ones.




(as stated in my first mention, but I was lazy to repeat the precision throughout my post :

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

With handicapped team golf

)

Russman

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

More than disappointed for me. Utterly disgusted.

How can it possibly be defended that a player for GUI national competitions should not have to have a perfectly reasonably 10 cards in a year giving credibility to some reasonable maintenance of an accurate handicap ?
The delegates should hang their heads in shame. The unspoken subtext goes "ah, but we couldnt have 10 cards. We struggle enough to get Joe Bloggs to get 4 cards in, and we need him in the team, he is always reliable to get a win"
Utterly indefensible decision, and even having faced it and voted it down confirms the hypocrisy and crookedness.

Couldn't agree more. It's not like 10 cards is particularly onerous.

ShriekingSheet

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

More than disappointed for me. Utterly disgusted.

With handicapped team golf rotten to the core with dodgy handicaps, this was a super proposal. No, it wasnt a cure all for the determined handicap fixer. But it would have been a serious step in the right direction. How can it possibly be defended that a player for GUI national competitions should not have to have a perfectly reasonably 10 cards in a year giving credibility to some reasonable maintenance of an accurate handicap ?
The delegates should hang their heads in shame. The unspoken subtext goes "ah, but we couldnt have 10 cards. We struggle enough to get Joe Bloggs to get 4 cards in, and we need him in the team, he is always reliable to get a win"
Utterly indefensible decision, and even having faced it and voted it down confirms the hypocrisy and crookedness.

My contempt for anyone playing team golf, the captains of them, and the clubs endorsing the nonsense, has been ratcheted up big time this week.

Any respect for your self as a personal of any morality whatsoever ? Dont touch GUI interclub golf with a bargepole then.

Jesus. This is very OTT.

I agree with the 10 cards proposal from a competitive perspective. However, can you not see the logic that in a game struggling with participation rates, it its not smart to put further restrictions on participation?

Participation and handicap cheating are two absolutely separate issues. But taking action on one would definitely affect the other here, so it’s one discussion.

I play a lot, as you do I assume, so we have no issue. But if you take the majority of players with membership at a parkland course, with winter rules for 6 months of the year, 4 singles qualifying cards isn’t an absolute given for everyone.

Even someone who plays almost weekly, if some of those rounds are society golf, fourball/scramble stuff, match play - or, as we’re talking about here - team golf that involves some practice rounds etc, it is very possible to play plenty of golf, without playing much in the way of singles qualifiers.

Handicap cheating is an awful part of the game. But clearly falling participation is golfs biggest challenge at the moment. You can’t do anything to make that situation worse.

Plus, if you ask me, asking cheaters for 6 more cards will only get you 6 more dodgy cards from cheaters. The people that will actually affected are working/family men who play often but not a huge amount. Those guys just not being able to play team golf anymore could easily be the only impact of this rule.

I don’t have a perfect alternative solution. As a bar stool suggestion, something could be taken from horse racing handicap management (though it has its own cheating anyway). They have a couple of lads at the track who (apparently) know what to look for. If they spot, review and agree that someone is playing the system, they change his handicap / penalise the trainer. It’d be like sending you down to a Pierce Purcell venue and when you see the kind of guys we all see taking the piss, you have the authority to take action.

It could be argued that we already have this in place, with GUI staff on site at all times, but that’s a whole other story.

fred funk }{

3 qualifying rounds isn't enough to legitimise a handicap, 10 rounds would be a fair reflection.

I thought it was a good proposal and thought it would have passed.

FixdePitchmark

fred funk }{ wrote: »

3 qualifying rounds isn't enough to legitimise a handicap, 10 rounds would be a fair reflection.

I thought it was a good proposal and thought it would have passed.

how about (10 + 3)/2

It seems it was too large a jump.

6.5 - rounded down to 5.

Maybe 5 was a more sensible motion.

fred funk }{

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

how about (10 + 3)/2

It seems it was too large a jump.

6.5 - rounded down to 5.

Maybe 5 was a more sensible motion.

I dunno. I really don't think it's too much to ask that you play 10 qualifiers over the course of the year (6 odd months).

The Rape of Lucretia

Given that there probably isnt qualifying golf or likely to be cards endered during the winter period for someone only putting in 4 cards, the 4 cards means, that at the start of the interclub season, a player is likely only to have put in 4 cards in the previous year and a half.

And for me, the spirit of these competitions is that they should be for active/frequent golfers who have a credible record of performance endorsing their handicap's accuracy. And are not just bandits who can scoop and open or classic.

The signal being sent by the delegates, that they turned down a motion put to them for 10 cards, and are happy with four rounds, is nothing short of outrageous. An endorsement from the highest level, that handicap accuracy, in GUI handicapped interclub teams, is optional.