Nissan Leaf Cabin Preconditioning [Split Post]

Soarer

Sound.

Here's one for ye.
I've the charging timer set to finish for 8am. But with the mornings being chilly, I'd like the heater to stay on until we leave at maybe 8:15. Once the charging is stopped, will the heater pull power from the charging cable or from the stored charge, reducing range?

n97 mini

Soarer wrote: »

Sound.

Here's one for ye.
I've the charging timer set to finish for 8am. But with the mornings being chilly, I'd like the heater to stay on until we leave at maybe 8:15. Once the charging is stopped, will the heater pull power from the charging cable or from the stored charge, reducing range?

The latter. If the charging timer has ended it won't pull any more electricity from the house.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

The latter. If the charging timer has ended it won't pull any more electricity from the house.

Are you contradicting yourself there?


My understanding is that the charging timer and the pre-heating timer are separate. If the charging timer has finished it doesn't affect the pre-heating setting so pre-heating will take the power from the house not the EV battery.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Are you contradicting yourself there?


My understanding is that the charging timer and the pre-heating timer are separate. If the charging timer has finished it doesn't affect the pre-heating setting so pre-heating will take the power from the house not the EV battery.

Preheating always takes the power from the traction battery.
It can also connect to the home charger and replenish the used power - but it is not possible to run directly power from the house to run the pre heating.

TLDR: You can charge and run pre heating (power in from mains to battery, power from battery to preheat. There is no link to run a closed loop from mains excluding battery.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Preheating always takes the power from the traction battery.
It can also connect to the home charger and replenish the used power - but it is not possible to run directly power from the house to run the pre heating.

TLDR: You can charge and run pre heating (power in from mains to battery, power from battery to preheat. There is no link to run a closed loop from mains excluding battery.

ok, but thats splitting hairs really. I don't know how it does it under the hood (direct or via the battery). The question is, when pre-heating is running, are you losing range?
I think the answer to that is no.
i.e. When I come out to my car after pre-heating it is still at 100% so either the battery was used to generate the heat and was replenished or it was got directly from the EVSE. I don't care which really. Thats just a technical detail.

Are you saying otherwise?

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

ok, but thats splitting hairs really. I don't know how it does it under the hood (direct or via the battery). The question is, when pre-heating is running, are you losing range?
I think the answer to that is no.
i.e. When I come out to my car after pre-heating it is still at 100%.

Are you saying otherwise?

I have been on 99% before.

When using the granny cable especially, I have lost up to 5% as the incoming 2kW is not enough to supply the 4-6kW the heating can demand on a cold morning (like this morning for instance, it was a 3 degrees and 4 bars of heat)

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I have been on 99% before.

When using the granny cable especially, I have lost up to 5% as the incoming 2kW is not enough to supply the 4-6kW the heating can demand on a cold morning (like this morning for instance, it was a 3 degrees and 4 bars of heat)

ok, I hadn't factored a granny cable in. I used one of those for several months but not during winter.

What car lost the 5%? Is it a Gen 1 which didn't have a heat pump?

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

ok, I hadn't factored a granny cable in. I used one of those for several months but not during winter.

What car lost the 5%? Is it a Gen 1 which didn't have a heat pump?

No it's a 2014 SVE - so 24kWh gen 1.5. Coming from 100% I find the car loses more range versus otherwise, and of course, if connected to 2kW vs 6kW the range loss is more. The heating consumes 4-6kW (not kWh)for the first few mins then is down to a constant ~1.5kW.

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

Are you contradicting yourself there?


My understanding is that the charging timer and the pre-heating timer are separate. If the charging timer has finished it doesn't affect the pre-heating setting so pre-heating will take the power from the house not the EV battery.

ELM327 wrote: »

I have been on 99% before.

When using the granny cable especially, I have lost up to 5% as the incoming 2kW is not enough to supply the 4-6kW the heating can demand on a cold morning (like this morning for instance, it was a 3 degrees and 4 bars of heat)

^ This.

As Elm said the heater runs off the battery. If the incoming power is less than the power used by the heater the battery runs down. If the charge timer has turned off the mains supply the heater timer won't turn it back on.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

^ This.

As Elm said the heater runs off the battery. If the incoming power is less than the power used by the heater the battery runs down. If the charge timer has turned off the mains supply the heater timer won't turn it back on.

Are you 100% sure of that?

I have the charge timer set to complete at 8am to ensure its all done on night rate.

I have the pre-heating set for 9am departure and I don't come out to a 95% battery. If, what you are saying is true I would use the battery for the entire amount of my pre-heating. I don't see that in my case unless its using <1% and it just doesn't register?

One of the main advantages of pre-heating is that you're not supposed to lose range as a result, notwithstanding the granny charger case where it can't keep up.

I have a kWh meter on my EVSE. I'll watch it the next time that pre-heating is on to see if its delivering any power.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Are you 100% sure of that?

I have the charge timer set to complete at 8am to ensure its all done on night rate.

I have the pre-heating set for 9am departure and I don't come out to a 95% battery. If, what you are saying is true I would use the battery for the entire amount of my pre-heating. I don't see that in my case unless its using <1% and it just doesn't register?

One of the main advantages of pre-heating is that you're not supposed to lose range as a result, notwithstanding the granny charger case where it can't keep up.

I have a kWh meter on my EVSE. I'll watch it the next time that pre-heating is on to see if its delivering any power.

If you set both - a charge timer and a preheat timer, the charge will turn back on.
If you have a 100% complete charge (and no charge timer set) then the preheat timer will not turn back on the charge.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

If you set both - a charge timer and a preheat timer, the charge will turn back on.
If you have a 100% complete charge (and no charge timer set) then the preheat timer will not turn back on the charge.

In my case the charge completes at 8am. Pre-heat usually starts around 8.30 depending on outside temp and finishes at 9.

Are you saying in my case the EVSE should show 0kWh's being used when the pre-heat comes on, since the charge timer is not set during pre-heat time?

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

Are you 100% sure of that?

I'm actually not! We stopped using preheat as it was reducing the range. But it could have been because of this:

ELM327 wrote: »

If you set both - a charge timer and a preheat timer, the charge will turn back on.
If you have a 100% complete charge (and no charge timer set) then the preheat timer will not turn back on the charge.

I must check it again.

KCross

From the Leaf manual(section 4-29)...
"The Climate Ctrl. Timer operates the air conditioner using power from the charger. Electric power from the Li-ion battery is not used."


I think its a US manual Im looking at but I presume its the same functionality here?

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

From the Leaf manual(section 4-29)...
"The Climate Ctrl. Timer operates the air conditioner using power from the charger. Electric power from the Li-ion battery is not used."


I think its a US manual Im looking at but I presume its the same functionality here?

That is definitely not true. What happens if the preheat is set and the car isn't actually plugged in (as is the case with our car 3-5 nights a week)?

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

In my case the charge completes at 8am. Pre-heat usually starts around 8.30 depending on outside temp and finishes at 9.

Are you saying in my case the EVSE should show 0kWh's being used when the pre-heat comes on, since the charge timer is not set during pre-heat time?

I'm not 100% as I don't use the charge timer much.
However my understanding based on limited personal experience is that if you do have an active charge timer (eg in your situation one that is aiming for a 9am departure with 100% charge) then it will kick in again, however if you have an expired charge timer, or no charge timer, then it will not restart a completed charge.

However if the charge had not completed, then of course it will continue charging when the preheat starts.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

That is definitely not true. What happens if the preheat is set and the car isn't actually plugged in (as is the case with our car 3-5 nights a week)?

It doesn't pre-heat in that case. AFAIK the climate control timer is not active if the car is not plugged in... which is exactly what you would expect to happen... think of your 2 week holiday!

You don't have to disable pre-heating when you go on holiday.

Here is another paragraph from the manual:

Climate Ctrl. Timer
While the charger is connected to the vehicle,
this function pre-heats or pre-cools the passenger
compartment of the vehicle to the temperature
set by default before driving. This helps
reduce power consumption from the Li-ion battery.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

That is definitely not true. What happens if the preheat is set and the car isn't actually plugged in (as is the case with our car 3-5 nights a week)?

+1
Definitely, 100%, that manual is either wrong or not for this market

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
Definitely, 100%, that manual is either wrong or not for this market

So, you believe that pre-heating happens even if the car is not plugged in?

So you go on 2 weeks holiday and forget to disable the timer and it will heat your car everyday?!!!

I definitely don't believe that.

One of us is definitely wrong. I'll have to run some tests!

n97 mini

Ha, the plot thickens. According to this video the CC timer won't come on if the car's not *charging*. i.e. if the charge has ended and the car has disconnected. See around 4 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc71qhsBngM

That makes me and you @KCross wrong! :scratches head (again):

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

So, you believe that pre-heating happens even if the car is not plugged in?

So you go on 2 weeks holiday and forget to disable the timer and it will heat your car everyday?!!!

I definitely don't believe that.

One of us is definitely wrong. I'll have to run some tests!

It depends on your priority setting between charge priority or climate priority.
If you set climate priority it comes on once you have more than 20% battery

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

Ha, the plot thickens. According to this video the CC timer won't come on if the car's not *charging*. i.e. if the charge has ended and the car has disconnected. See around 4 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc71qhsBngM

That makes me and you @KCross wrong! :scratches head (again):

Well that is definitely wrong.
My climate timer comes on when not charging for sure.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

Ha, the plot thickens. According to this video the CC timer won't come on if the car's not *charging*. i.e. if the charge has ended and the car has disconnected. See around 4 minutes in.



That makes me and you @KCross wrong! :scratches head (again):

My Climate control comes on every morning AFTER the charge has finished so thats wrong. As I said, charge finishes at 8am. Climate control starts around 8:30 for a 9am departure.

Maybe there are some combinations of timers where it does and doesn't work.

I'll run some tests but the manual is against you guys so far!

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

My Climate control comes on every morning AFTER the charge has finished so thats wrong. As I said, charge finishes at 8am. Climate control starts around 8:30 for a 9am departure.

Maybe there are some combinations of timers where it does and doesn't work.

I'll run some tests but the manual is against you guys so far!

At the end of the day, there can be all the manuals in the world but I know what happens in the car sitting in my drive.

DrPhilG

The preheat will definitely not work if the car isn't plugged in. It can be started remotely but won't come on automatically.

If the charge timer has ended the heating timer will still work, provided the car is still plugged in. Where that power comes from I don't know.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

The preheat will definitely not work if the car isn't plugged in. It can be started remotely but won't come on automatically.

If the charge timer has ended the heating timer will still work, provided the car is still plugged in. Where that power comes from I don't know.

+1

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

At the end of the day, there can be all the manuals in the world but I know what happens in the car sitting in my drive.

True.
We all have the same car though!

If there are differences in behaviour here it must be down to settings or firmware updates because what you are describing doesn't match what I see in mine and to be honest goes against one of the main benefits of having pre-heating which is that you don't lose range as a result.

Soarer

What have I started?!?

Amazed that it hasn't been asked before. But with no heat pump and a reduced capacity battery, tis worth me asking.

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

What have I started?!?

Amazed that it hasn't been asked before. But with no heat pump and a reduced capacity battery, tis worth me asking.

I think it's funny that different owners of the same car (perhaps running different software versions ) can have different outcomes in the same scenario.

There's a setting in the Leaf which will make sure the CC does NOT come on if the charge % is below 80%. And another that will allow it come on when the charge % is above 18%.

There's also a charge priority over CC setting.

Orebro

So is it not possible to pre heat by timer if the car is not plugged in?

@soarer - I'm kind of amazed too, but I guess there are a good few of us heading into our first winter with a Leaf.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

From the Leaf manual(section 4-29)...
"The Climate Ctrl. Timer operates the air conditioner using power from the charger. Electric power from the Li-ion battery is not used."

KCross wrote: »

It doesn't pre-heat in that case. AFAIK the climate control timer is not active if the car is not plugged in... which is exactly what you would expect to happen... think of your 2 week holiday!

You don't have to disable pre-heating when you go on holiday.

Here is another paragraph from the manual:

Climate Ctrl. Timer
While the charger is connected to the vehicle,
this function pre-heats or pre-cools the passenger
compartment of the vehicle to the temperature
set by default before driving. This helps
reduce power consumption from the Li-ion battery.

I pulled out the manual that came with my car and the text I've given above is exactly the same. So you can agree/disagree with that but I don't think Nissan would have got that wrong and to be honest what they have described makes sense. It is how you would expect it to work.

I also just tried it right now in my car and when the climate control came on (no charging timer active) it pulled from the house electricity. I could see it from the light on the EVSE and the kWh meter was clocking up power and LeafSpy showed that the battery was not losing charge.

So, I think the following:
- Climate control timer is only active when the car is plugged in.
- Climate control timer will pull from the house electricity, not the Li-ion battery. Or at the very least anything taken from the battery is put back in from the charger.


However, I do think there are a few nuances here. The priority setting(charging vs heating) and the long life mode (80% vs 100%) do affect how it operates.

@elm327, looking back a few posts I think you use long life mode? If yes, that will affect things.

An interesting side note in the manual says this:

"If the Climate Ctrl. Timer starts operating while the vehicle is being charged, the time required for charging will be longer."

What this means is that if both timers overlap you could find that when you get in the car is not at 100%. Thats not because the heater has used Li-ion power but because power has been split between the two and charging did not finish at the specified time. I can understand how someone would interpret that as the heater using Li-ion power when in fact the car never got to 100% in the first place.

I think the trick here, if you want to ensure a fully charged car, is to ensure that there is no overlap between the two timers.... which happens to be what I had.... finish charge at 8am, climate control comes on at 8:30-9:00. That means the car is at 100% at 8am and then when the climate control comes on it gets the full power it needs.

The manual also says that the climate control is limited to the available electric power from the EVSE and specifically calls out the granny charger as a reason why the set temp may not be reached.

KCross

Orebro wrote: »

So is it not possible to pre heat by timer if the car is not plugged in?

@soarer - I'm kind of amazed too, but I guess there are a good few of us heading into our first winter with a Leaf.

Correct, it has to be plugged in for the climate control timer to activate.

You can remote activate the heating via the app without the car being plugged in but thats separate to the climate control timer.

NIMAN

Tried the remote climate control this morning for the 1St time, and it worked fine.

Done via the NissanConnect EV app and not timer, car NOT plugged in.

n97 mini

NIMAN wrote: »

Tried the remote climate control this morning for the 1St time, and it worked fine.

Done via the NissanConnect EV app and not timer, car NOT plugged in.

When you do it via the app I think it'll come on regardless. Timers etc need a bit of testing. Like KCross I'll do a bit of fiddling over the coming weeks and report back.

ELM327

NIMAN wrote: »

Tried the remote climate control this morning for the 1St time, and it worked fine.

Done via the NissanConnect EV app and not timer, car NOT plugged in.

Same here.
Charge completed 3 hours before I started the climate control.
Car was plugged in but not charging.

When I started the climate control it ran for over 15 minutes (the max when not plugged in) but the battery was depleted to 98% SOC.

n97 mini

Long life mode enabled. Car set to stop charging at 8am and preheat to also stop at 8am (can't remember run time). Granny cable used. Car at 76% just now. Not sure if it drew power from the house but it definitely did from the battery.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

Long life mode enabled. Car set to stop charging at 8am and preheat to also stop at 8am (can't remember run time). Granny cable used. Car at 76% just now. Not sure if it drew power from the house but it definitely did from the battery.

+1
That was me yesterday

You can set timer from the app but that will be the start time not depart time.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

You can set timer from the app but that will be the start time not depart time.

If that's directed to me, I don't use the timer in the app, I woke up and pressed the start CC on the app. Dawdled about for approx 30-45 minutes and came out to a lovely heated car showing 98% and my EVSE showed no power being drawn.

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

Long life mode enabled. Car set to stop charging at 8am and preheat to also stop at 8am (can't remember run time). Granny cable used. Car at 76% just now. Not sure if it drew power from the house but it definitely did from the battery.

Yes, thats expected because you have overlap on the timers.

See my previous post where it says charge time will be extended if there is overlap.

To prove it, try this tomorrow.... set the charge to finish at 7am and leave everything else as is. I bet the car will be 79 or 80% when you come out.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Yes, thats expected because you have overlap on the timers.

See my previous post where it says charge time will be extended if there is overlap.

To prove it, try this tomorrow.... set the charge to finish at 7am and leave everything else as is. I bet the car will be 79 or 80% when you come out.

Would the same be true (genuine question and something I must try) if you set the charge to complete at 2am, and the preheat to come on for 8am?

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Same here.
Charge completed 3 hours before I started the climate control.
Car was plugged in but not charging.

When I started the climate control it ran for over 15 minutes (the max when not plugged in) but the battery was depleted to 98% SOC.

Remote charging via the app will use the battery regardless of the car being plugged in. It is different to the climate control timer.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Would the same be true (genuine question and something I must try) if you set the charge to complete at 2am, and the preheat to come on for 8am?

Yes, same thing.

The main point is that if you want a fully charged car AND preheat you need to ensure the timers don't overlap.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Remote charging via the app will use the battery regardless of the car being plugged in. It is different to the climate control timer.

OK.
Today's test was done with remote activation and plugged in not charging.
Tomorrow's test will be done with both timers, charge timer to finish at 5 and heat to come on for a 6.30 departure.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

OK.
Today's test was done with remote activation and plugged in not charging.
Tomorrow's test will be done with both timers, charge timer to finish at 5 and heat to come on for a 6.30 departure.

Are you still using granny charger? If yes, will it have enough time to fully charge by 5am? Maybe set an earlier charge start time as well to be sure it is finished for 5am.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Are you still using granny charger? If yes, will it have enough time to fully charge by 5am? Maybe set an earlier charge start time as well to be sure it is finished for 5am.

I'll arrive home with ~40% and plug straight in.
It will have almost 10 hours so I@m sure that's plenty of time.
What I'm trying to see is if the charge completes with the charge timer and stops does it then restart with the climate control. Reading the links you've posted above would make it seem like it should but I am not convinced that was my experience before. Hence the test.

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

Yes, thats expected because you have overlap on the timers.

See my previous post where it says charge time will be extended if there is overlap.

To prove it, try this tomorrow.... set the charge to finish at 7am and leave everything else as is. I bet the car will be 79 or 80% when you come out.

KCross wrote: »

Yes, same thing.

The main point is that if you want a fully charged car AND preheat you need to ensure the timers don't overlap.

Will try that so. But as we're on the granny cable I don't think we'll be on much more than 76% again as the power drawn isn't enough (assuming it draws at all during the preheat).

KCross

n97 mini wrote: »

Will try that so. But as we're on the granny cable I don't think we'll be on much more than 76% again as the power drawn isn't enough (assuming it draws at all during the preheat).

If its fully charged at 7am and then the preheat comes on at 7:30(for 8am departure) it is supposed to limit the aircon power draw to the max power of the granny charger (according to the manual). I haven't tested that element of it as I don't use the granny charger anymore.

The main thing is to give it enough time to complete the charge cycle before the preheat kicks in.

KCross

@ELM327 and @n97_mini do you have email notifications setup for when the charge completes? To really be sure that the charge cycle completes it would be good to see those emails coming in for your test.

There can be no doubt then that if you come out to less than a full charge that the pre-heat robbed you of range rather than the charge cycle not finishing.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

@ELM327 and @n97_mini do you have email notifications setup for when the charge completes? To really be sure that the charge cycle completes it would be good to see those emails coming in for your test.

There can be no doubt then that if you come out to less than a full charge that the pre-heat robbed you of range rather than the charge cycle not finishing.

Emails don't work for me from the leaf for some reason but I have a notification on the phone, if it completes overnight there is a push notification which I will see.

KCross wrote: »

If its fully charged at 7am and then the preheat comes on at 7:30(for 8am departure) it is supposed to limit the aircon power draw to the max power of the granny charger (according to the manual). I haven't tested that element of it as I don't use the granny charger anymore.

The main thing is to give it enough time to complete the charge cycle before the preheat kicks in.

It's supposed to, yes. But the question is , does it!