Kerry GAA discussion thread #2

flasher0030

The Golden Miller wrote: »

To beat the Dubs in the championship, Jack Barry has to be playing. He's the real key, the foundation their attack stems from. He's a huge presence in the centre, v Dublin in particular, and they do fear him. Fenton in particular fears him, whether he'd admit it or not

Your love affair with Jack must be getting pretty serious at this stage. Should we dust off the top-hats for a big day out??

The Golden Miller

flasher0030 wrote: »

Your love affair with Jack must be getting pretty serious at this stage. Should we dust off the top-hats for a big day out??

Not a love affair, just pointing out he needs to be starting v Dublin, as he doesn't always start

The only other time I mentioned him was on the Fenton thread, to show how he's over rated

Bass Reeves

TBF Jack Barry has had some great games against Brian Fenton and curbs his influence in games more than any other midfieldet in the country

flasher0030

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Not a love affair, just pointing out he needs to be starting v Dublin, as he doesn't always start

The only other time I mentioned him was on the Fenton thread, to show how he's over rated

Really?? Only have to go back to t he previous page of this thread to find more Jack love - "Why is Jack Barry continually on the bench does anyone know?".

And guess who started the anti Brian Fenton thread. Yes, yourself of course. So you could create a platform to declare the love.

The Golden Miller

flasher0030 wrote: »

Really?? Only have to go back to t he previous page of this thread to find more Jack love - "Why is Jack Barry continually on the bench does anyone know?".

And guess who started the anti Brian Fenton thread. Yes, yourself of course. So you could create a platform to declare the love.

It's a genuine question as actual Kerry fans may be in the know, as I don't understand why he's not an automatic starter.

Wasn't an anti Fenton thread, simply pointing out the nonsensical hyperbole over him, Barry in particular having the measure of him everytime they've met tbh. Fair questions imo

brocbrocach

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

TW also doesn't have to stand directly in front of goal either. Cud move the sweeper around by going near/far side of goals or even 25m from goal if we under pressure further out.

The big man might be a tactic going out of fashion but a bit of imagination can make it more effective too.

He let himeslf be marked by Cluxton a few years ago. Just stood there shoulder to shoulder with the goalie and let his man go out to sweep. Even more maddening was he came in as a sub so he was fresh.

The Golden Miller

brocbrocach wrote: »

He let himeslf be marked by Cluxton a few years ago. Just stood there shoulder to shoulder with the goalie and let his man go out to sweep. Even more maddening was he came in as a sub so he was fresh.

Can't understand how a man can be so static. You wouldn't mind if he read the game and moved when it mattered, he doesn't. Wasted potential imo

TITANIUM.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

To beat the Dubs in the championship, Jack Barry has to be playing. He's the real key, the foundation their attack stems from. He's a huge presence in the centre, v Dublin in particular, and they do fear him. Fenton in particular fears him, whether he'd admit it or not

I dont know, Jack has quietened Fenton a few times in fairness to him. I think we need the mobility and dog in the younger lads, id prefer the midfielders contributing more rather then just trying to nullify their opposite number. Fenton didn't look great the last day in the second half when the pressure was on, and he spent more time running towards his own goal then ours. Fenton looks great when dublin and dominant and can play that horrible looking possession game. The hard press on that element of their game plan (If done right) would keep him curtailed enough. To do it we'd need fit fit fit mobile players, and im not sure Jack fits that bill. He's a more traditional type of player. Just my 2 cents.

The Golden Miller

TITANIUM. wrote: »

I dont know, Jack has quietened Fenton a few times in fairness to him. I think we need the mobility and dog in the younger lads, id prefer the midfielders contributing more rather then just trying to nullify their opposite number. Fenton didn't look great the last day in the second half when the pressure was on, and he spent more time running towards his own goal then ours. Fenton looks great when dublin and dominant and can play that horrible looking possession game. The hard press on that element of their game plan (If done right) would keep him curtailed enough. To do it we'd need fit fit fit mobile players, and im not sure Jack fits that bill. He's a more traditional type of player. Just my 2 cents.

He does far more than that. A midfielder needs a presence, Fenton has that until he comes up against Barry. Barry is the dominating aura in midfield. It sets a confidence in the team, driven forward from the center. Also his positional sense, breaks up and cuts down alot of Dublin's play through the centre. Tends to raise his game for Dublin.

Dublin will also try and bypass midfield when he plays. Their kickouts go very short so as to not touch midfield, and if the defender goes long often still hits midfield. Kerry should press higher here and control the kick out. Kerry goalie can also kick long down the centre, instead of this short kick out, knowing Barry will field it. He catches ball after ball against the Dublin midfield.

I genuinely believe he carries a fear factor for Dublin, as he's well able for the lot of them in the centre. He's a big presence

The_Honeybadger

Barry is certainly in Kerry’s best 15 IMO but to say Dublin are afraid of him is a bit of a stretch to put it mildly. I’d see him a player that can get around the field and help out the defence a lot by dropping back. He does seem to be able to quieten Brian Fenton and other midfields when he is asked to do that. Big worry with Jack is that he misses a lot of games with niggly injuries, obviously not his fault, but it’s hard to plan a midfield around him.

We may be best off going with a two man inside line and a three man midfield for the championship, three midfielders from Barry, Moran, O’Connor and Spillane. Hopefully Paul O’Shea works his way in to contention as well in the coming years because you have to think Moran is nearly finished.

TITANIUM.

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Barry is certainly in Kerry’s best 15 IMO but to say Dublin are afraid of him is a bit of a stretch to put it mildly. I’d see him a player that can get around the field and help out the defence a lot by dropping back. He does seem to be able to quieten Brian Fenton and other midfields when he is asked to do that. Big worry with Jack is that he misses a lot of games with niggly injuries, obviously not his fault, but it’s hard to plan a midfield around him.

We may be best off going with a two man inside line and a three man midfield for the championship, three midfielders from Barry, Moran, O’Connor and Spillane. Hopefully Paul O’Shea works his way in to contention as well in the coming years because you have to think Moran is nearly finished.

Thee 3 midfielders is interesting one. O'connor did well enough the last day, I wasn't always his biggest fan but he's winning me over. Moran is 33 this year, and you gotta think he'll definitely start, mix him with O'connor and Spillane could work. Barrys coming in 4th in that midfield race for me.

Bass Reeves

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Thee 3 midfielders is interesting one. O'connor did well enough the last day, I wasn't always his biggest fan but he's winning me over. Moran is 33 this year, and you gotta think he'll definitely start, mix him with O'connor and Spillane could work. Barrys coming in 4th in that midfield race for me.

It not so much three in mid field as the type of player you pick. In the modern game everybody plays two inside at most, some only play with one. The rest of you half forwards and half backs as well as midfielders are there to cover ground and defend and attack as necessary. That is why teams tend to concentrate there substitutions in this area.

However in Kerry we tend not to have a huge amount of physically dominant strong players as other teams especially in the he half forward line.

With David Clifford not being virtually unmarketable by a single defender you want to maximize that advantage as well Kerry has now got a number of efficient scorers in the other Clifford, K Spillane, S O'Shea and Grant who are all technically good free scoring players if given the chance.

To accommodate this you may need to scarfice one of them or DM( no scoring slouch either) to put a physical presence in the middle of the field. This may allow us more attacking option as 1-2 of these forwards may e able to hd there ground more when Dublin attack. This helps the transition from defense to attack.

I would not agree that JB is forth in the pecking order. He is probably physically the strongest and most mobile of the players you picked. if he was fit and injury free I would pick him first to play. The real choice if do you start Moran or not. Do you start AS and DOC with him. However Moran will not have the mobility require later in the game. Actually he be ideal to bring on to do TW job. Paudie O'Shea is probable too young to hold midfield by himself for the last twenty minutes of a match( from Mon 55-75). Really we are short an integer midfielder and maybe two if lowing for injury to play this system.

There is another way and that is to bring SOS or DC into midfield for the first half of a match to allow you to control midfield. But it m and you scarfice an early attacking option and they wl be exceptionally tired for the last 10-15 minutes of the match so a back could try to play Molly Bawn with them. You would want nerves of steel to let them not track back during that last 10-15 minutes.

However it could create havoc in DC case as when he transitions from defense to attack again for any team you would need to get defenders onto him.

Our issue is we need 2-3 more strong physical workhorses. Who can operate at midfield

TITANIUM.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It not so much three in mid field as the type of player you pick. In the modern game everybody plays two inside at most, some only play with one. The rest of you half forwards and half backs as well as midfielders are there to cover ground and defend and attack as necessary. That is why teams tend to concentrate there substitutions in this area.

However in Kerry we tend not to have a huge amount of physically dominant strong players as other teams especially in the he half forward line.

With David Clifford not being virtually unmarketable by a single defender you want to maximize that advantage as well Kerry has now got a number of efficient scorers in the other Clifford, K Spillane, S O'Shea and Grant who are all technically good free scoring players if given the chance.

To accommodate this you may need to scarfice one of them or DM( no scoring slouch either) to put a physical presence in the middle of the field. This may allow us more attacking option as 1-2 of these forwards may e able to hd there ground more when Dublin attack. This helps the transition from defense to attack.

I would not agree that JB is forth in the pecking order. He is probably physically the strongest and most mobile of the players you picked. if he was fit and injury free I would pick him first to play. The real choice if do you start Moran or not. Do you start AS and DOC with him. However Moran will not have the mobility require later in the game. Actually he be ideal to bring on to do TW job. Paudie O'Shea is probable too young to hold midfield by himself for the last twenty minutes of a match( from Mon 55-75). Really we are short an integer midfielder and maybe two if lowing for injury to play this system.

There is another way and that is to bring SOS or DC into midfield for the first half of a match to allow you to control midfield. But it m and you scarfice an early attacking option and they wl be exceptionally tired for the last 10-15 minutes of the match so a back could try to play Molly Bawn with them. You would want nerves of steel to let them not track back during that last 10-15 minutes.

However it could create havoc in DC case as when he transitions from defense to attack again for any team you would need to get defenders onto him.

Our issue is we need 2-3 more strong physical workhorses. Who can operate at midfield

Great detail as ever Bass, but still disagree on JB, Bar his good performances against the dubs hes hardly set the world alight and is very unreliable availability wise. I wouldn't be dropping DM on current form, it would have to be PG. Hopefully he's another man if got right could have a big year but is struggling the last couple of years. Allot of talk down here that SOS is the man to take over the midfield in years to come. Thats hard to see right now, I've seen in play allot at club level, christ he's some footballer. But inter County level in August September against professional level strength and conditioning, And up against naturally bigger men! Will being the better footballer be enough! We have at least 4 decent options at midfield which is nothing to complain about. A hard working half forward line and some pace in the half back line is all looking good but jenny Mac our full back line needs allot of work.

dobman88

Any talk of David Clifford playing anywhere other than inside forward can instantly be dismissed as complete and utter nonsense anyway.

Why on earth would you have the best forward Kerry have seen for years drop into any kind of defensive set up. Leave him as high up as possible so he has the chance to do the most damage.

And who is Paudie O Shea? That's the 2nd or 3rd time I've seen him mentioned but havent a clue who he is.

TITANIUM.

dobman88 wrote: »

Any talk of David Clifford playing anywhere other than inside forward can instantly be dismissed as complete and utter nonsense anyway.

Why on earth would you have the best forward Kerry have seen for years drop into any kind of defensive set up. Leave him as high up as possible so he has the chance to do the most damage.

And who is Paudie O Shea? That's the 2nd or 3rd time I've seen him mentioned but havent a clue who he is.

I'd say their talking about Paul O’Shea, the under 20 captain from last year. He's a kilcummin man i think, and a cousin of the Clifford's aswell.

Don't worry DC will be remaining inside. I swear I nearly give myself a turn everytime I see come out past the 45.

Bass Reeves

TITANIUM. wrote: »

I'd say their talking about Paul O’Shea, the under 20 captain from last year. He's a kilcummin man i think, and a cousin of the Clifford's aswell.

Don't worry DC will be remaining inside. I swear I nearly give myself a turn everytime I see come out past the 45.

That's him sorry

dobman88

TITANIUM. wrote: »

I'd say their talking about Paul O’Shea, the under 20 captain from last year. He's a kilcummin man i think, and a cousin of the Clifford's aswell.

Don't worry DC will be remaining inside. I swear I nearly give myself a turn everytime I see come out past the 45.

Oh yes, a fine prospect. Hopefully he carries on an upward trajectory.

And it was this laughable comment I was replying to about Clifford.

"There is another way and that is to bring SOS or DC into midfield for the first half of a match to allow you to control midfield".

Pure madness to even think that having him around the middle for any amount of time is a good idea. Tbf Seanie plays there for the club sometimes so could be a future option for midfield but I'd leave Clifford inside 100% of the time in every game.

TITANIUM.

dobman88 wrote: »

Oh yes, a fine prospect. Hopefully he carries on an upward trajectory.

And it was this laughable comment I was replying to about Clifford.

"There is another way and that is to bring SOS or DC into midfield for the first half of a match to allow you to control midfield".

Pure madness to even think that having him around the middle for any amount of time is a good idea. Tbf Seanie plays there for the club sometimes so could be a future option for midfield but I'd leave Clifford inside 100% of the time in every game.

Ah i see, I thought bass meant DOC, Not Clifford. Your right 100% Clifford needs to be inside permanently.

Bass Reeves

dobman88 wrote: »

Oh yes, a fine prospect. Hopefully he carries on an upward trajectory.

And it was this laughable comment I was replying to about Clifford.

"There is another way and that is to bring SOS or DC into midfield for the first half of a match to allow you to control midfield".

Pure madness to even think that having him around the middle for any amount of time is a good idea. Tbf Seanie plays there for the club sometimes so could be a future option for midfield but I'd leave Clifford inside 100% of the time in every game.

Yes and I would as we if we were able to get quality ball into him and if we had a rock solid midfield. If you play a 3 man midfield you will be substituting two of them or one and moving one to a less exacting position in last 20 minutes of the match. You get away with the second option at club level probably not at inter county unless the player is a top class footballer like Micheal Murphy of Donegal or dare I say Clifford or O'Shea.

Contrary to popular opinion if we save midfield we solve a some of the defencive issues. Three of the goals last week were really soft goals. Now in a way they are because of individual mistakes but you can also say it was because Dublin got players one on one on our back. This only happened twice with Dublin DM disallowed goal and SOB penalty. As well we were lucky 2-3 more times.

While Kerry will improve so will other teams and Dublin in particular. The whole challenge now is to beat Dublin. To do that it is critical to dominate the middle third. Our problem is our half backs and half forwards are not hugely physical players, there is no Thomas O'Se's, Declan O Sullivan's or Paul Galvin's in the present outfit to give a hand in that middle third winning ball, breaking up attacks stopping teams getting clean ball. We have a sh!tload of nice footballers but very little hard edge or physical presence compared to other teams especially Dublin.

We need to prevent Dublin building a platform at mid field. Because players are only back group training 3-4 weeks( I know technically Dublin may have been back longer but not to any great extent I imagine) the naturally gifted footballing team would have the edge. That why we really put it up to Dublin last weekend. However Dublin will be a different beast to play in August with 4 months football under there belt.

dobman88

If you take Clifford out of the inside line, you've nobody that can inflict much damage in there. I think it's the most mental thing I've read on here for a while so I'll respectfully disagree with you.

Bringing him anywhere near midfield would actually solve a problem for the opposition of not having to worry about him near their goal.

Bass Reeves

dobman88 wrote: »

If you take Clifford out of the inside line, you've nobody that can inflict much damage in there. I think it's the most mental thing I've read on here for a while so I'll respectfully disagree with you.

Bringing him anywhere near midfield would actually solve a problem for the opposition of not having to worry about him near their goal.

In one way it creates a bigger problem for them KS and PC are not bad inside forwards, Grant and SoS are free scoring as well. You have to put a talented player on Clifford at midfield when he get inside the 40 unless you has an exceptional player on him he would score.

You still have your two classic midfielders remember who have to be picked up who do normal midfield work. Look at what happened last Sunday when DoC a midfielder was marking CoC. Technical error and goal. Normally with players in the middle third are box to box however you adapt your system to the player. You could give him more if a free role.

It is not something I am advocating but we have a serious issue in the middle third how we solve it will take serious tactical thinking. But starting later championship games with much the same players from No5-No 12 is unlikely to see us win an All-Ireland unless Dublin pick up serious injury problems mainly to Fenton. You can start any three midfielder's you want but we need two coming on for the last 20-25 minutes

dobman88

Fair enough. As I said, I disagree. You put your best, most dangerous forwards where they can do the most damage and that isnt in a midfield formation. Clifford has the ability to create huge moments from very little so he has to stay as high up the pitch as possible for me.

Forge83

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Thee 3 midfielders is interesting one. O'connor did well enough the last day, I wasn't always his biggest fan but he's winning me over. Moran is 33 this year, and you gotta think he'll definitely start, mix him with O'connor and Spillane could work. Barrys coming in 4th in that midfield race for me.

Spillane is our best worker and defensive midfielder but our worst in every other area.
Barry is our best up against Fenton but then contributes very little to the rest of the game. Fair trade I think.
DOC is our best well rounded midfielder but possibly not dominant in any area.
Moran is one of the best fielding and kick passing midfielders in the game. But his legs are gone along with his head I’m afraid.
In short, it’s a really tough decision for Keane. I’d go DOC and Barry (with Paul Murphy as a wing forward playing sweeper)

Bass Reeves

Forge83 wrote: »

Spillane is our best worker and defensive midfielder but our worst in every other area.
Barry is our best up against Fenton but then contributes very little to the rest of the game. Fair trade I think.
DOC is our best well rounded midfielder but possibly not dominant in any area.
Moran is one of the best fielding and kick passing midfielders in the game. But his legs are gone along with his head I’m afraid.
In short, it’s a really tough decision for Keane. I’d go DOC and Barry (with Paul Murphy as a wing forward playing sweeper)

Problem is it allows Dublin to both double tag or sweep in front of Clifford, you will struggle to build s platform at MF, you have to replace Murphy at wing back, it nullifies Murphy attacking ability ( he got two points last Sunday) and it still dose nothing to counter the Dublin strength in the middle third, it nearly conceeds it as you are dropping a player out of that that area. It also draws Dublin onto you.

My own preferred option is probably Moran, Barry and Spillane starting with DOC coming in along with PM or maybe SoB

The problem is if any one of your Midfielder's get injured you are committed to the system and it very hard to change your playing style around. The nearest we came to beating Dublin was the first day we used that system. In the replay Spillane was going forward off the throw in as it looked like we had possession but it broke to Eoin Murchan who had open country ahead of him

Forge83

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Problem is it allows Dublin to both double tag or sweep in front of Clifford, you will struggle to build s platform at MF, you have to replace Murphy at wing back, it nullifies Murphy attacking ability ( he got two points last Sunday) and it still dose nothing to counter the Dublin strength in the middle third, it nearly conceeds it as you are dropping a player out of that that area. It also draws Dublin onto you.

My own preferred option is probably Moran, Barry and Spillane starting with DOC coming in along with PM or maybe SoB

The problem is if any one of your Midfielder's get injured you are committed to the system and it very hard to change your playing style around. The nearest we came to beating Dublin was the first day we used that system. In the replay Spillane was going forward off the throw in as it looked like we had possession but it broke to Eoin Murchan who had open country ahead of him

Clifford will be double tagged or sweeper in front regardless.
Murphy is replaceable as a man marking back, I actually don’t rate him as he is a mismatch against too many Dublin forwards. His strength is mopping up loose ball and running with it. As somewhat of a counter attacking sweeper he is useful.

I’m sorry but I can’t agree with Moran starting. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Moran has shown over and over again he is not the answer to Dublin.
If Murphy is to be left at wing back then Barry and Spillane at midfield with DOC at wing forward playing as a third midfielder.

On our defense, PK should really give Graham O Sullivan, Jack Sherwood and Mike Breen starts against Roscommon. Any other defenders on the extended panel should be included in the match day squad. Brian Leonard...
These guys need to be given a chance and a message sent to the other defenders that the performance last week is not acceptable and puts their position in doubt.

dobman88

A well overdue and welcome return for Tom O Sullivan.

https://twitter.com/Slyone1069/status/1398353650284695555?s=19

Forge83

dobman88 wrote: »

A well overdue and welcome return for Tom O Sullivan.

https://twitter.com/Slyone1069/status/1398353650284695555?s=19

Jason Foley been given another shot at fullback..... Last chance saloon for him to finally realise his potential as he has had been given enough chances.
It seems PK has no confidence in Jack Sherwood.
Great to see Graham O S and Mike Breen being given starts as I suggested.I rate Graham O Sullivan highly as a teak tough defender, something we are missing. Pity Brian Leonard isn’t named on the bench. Tom O Sullivan back is a great boost along with Stephen O Brien starting.

I’ve just realised we nearly have more midfielders than defenders. Moran/DOC/Spillane/Kearney/Joe O Connor and Buckley at centre forward. Plus Barry and P O Shea. That’s 8 midfielders.
Would anyone who follows the club game closely think any of these guys could be converted to an intimidating centre back? Kearney or P O Shea maybe?

awaywithyou

Forge83 wrote: »

Jason Foley been given another shot at fullback..... Last chance saloon for him to finally realise his potential as he has had been given enough chances.
It seems PK has no confidence in Jack Sherwood.
Great to see Graham O S and Mike Breen being given starts as I suggested.I rate Graham O Sullivan highly as a teak tough defender, something we are missing. Pity Brian Leonard isn’t named on the bench. Tom O Sullivan back is a great boost along with Stephen O Brien starting.

I’ve just realised we nearly have more midfielders than defenders. Moran/DOC/Spillane/Kearney/Joe O Connor and Buckley at centre forward. Plus Barry and P O Shea. That’s 8 midfielders.
Would anyone who follows the club game closely think any of these guys could be converted to an intimidating centre back? Kearney or P O Shea maybe?

its a better full back line than last sunday.... T. Morley is imo not quick enough to be in team... con callagahan strolled past him for goal last sunday. on Mike Breen could he play at 3 or 6??

someone said about paul murphy as sweeper. no way.. was a failure in 2017 and will be a failure again... what does jack sherwood have to do to get into team...?? and i see mr undroppable is at No. 5...

paudie clifford should be allowed come out the field and leave brosnan/clifford inside.. paudie has the makings of a second paul galvin.. as long as Keane plays him....

Bass Reeves

Forge83 wrote: »

Jason Foley been given another shot at fullback..... Last chance saloon for him to finally realise his potential as he has had been given enough chances.
It seems PK has no confidence in Jack Sherwood.
Great to see Graham O S and Mike Breen being given starts as I suggested.I rate Graham O Sullivan highly as a teak tough defender, something we are missing. Pity Brian Leonard isn’t named on the bench. Tom O Sullivan back is a great boost along with Stephen O Brien starting.

I’ve just realised we nearly have more midfielders than defenders. Moran/DOC/Spillane/Kearney/Joe O Connor and Buckley at centre forward. Plus Barry and P O Shea. That’s 8 midfielders.
Would anyone who follows the club game closely think any of these guys could be converted to an intimidating centre back? Kearney or P O Shea maybe?

CB is probably the most critical position in football now. It similar to CB in hurling 10+ years ago. It's a strength, footballing and game reading position.

In the modern game CB are born not made to the position. Ciaran Kilkenny club in Dublin Castleknock moved him to CB last year. It a critical position in football now.

Jack Sherwood is a very limited footballer. It's a harsh thing to say he was not good enough 6-8 years ago it hard to see him being good enough now

It's very easy to take chances against Roscommon. When we win the game we are virtually gauranteed to top the group and go to the league semi final. If we lose we are still in the semifinal.

PK is obviously resting a lot of players.

DDC1990

Really poor start for the lads. Look very leggy. Lots of mistakes and the ball isn't sticking in the forward line.

Plenty of bodies back but still lots of space in behind.

We are lucky to be only a point down.