Charging network in the future

DesperateDan

Here's what I'm thinking, I currently drive a heap-o-****e 06 Opel Corsa and was seriously considering getting a new leaf in early 2018, expecting to spend around 26k over 3 years paying for the thing.

What really puts me off is the unpredictable charging network and lack of infrastructure. Just today on the FB group there was a lady who had to drive to 3 separate fcps in Dublin and had a load of hassle getting home.

So I got thinking if I was to hold on another 18 months there is a very good chance by mid 2019 a Model 3 Tesla with a 75kwh battery will be affordable and available to me.

If I'm right a 75kwh battery will pretty much obliterate the need for anyone to ever use an fcp if they have a home charging point, which is a game changer. At that point in time (heading in to 2020), I'm predicting an exponential increase in the uptake of EVs as all the manufacturers jump on the band wagon.

Sound good?

Also, if those kind of batteries are standard as quickly as 2020, do you think the charging network will begin to fall in to total disrepair because people simply don't need them anymore?

There'll be a lot of people with no home charging who will need public charge points.

But for those with home charging if you have 60 + Kwh public charging will be rare, it's rare for me with work charging.

Even the 40 Kwh Leaf would greatly encourage me to take much longer trips.

Trips like going to the Airport or Dublin shopping without having to charge would be so much more convenient.

KCross

Long range Model 3 will probably be €50k+
The entry level model with, I think, 50kWh battery will be €35-40k (maybe more).
And if you don't have a deposit already down its unlikely you will get your hands on one before 2020.

So your €26k Leaf isn't in the same league as the Model 3.


What you need to consider is, with the new Leaf (40kWh) will you need to use the public network? Maybe you won't in which case you don't need to spend the extra on the Model 3 or wait for it to be available. So, taking the occasional long journey out, what is the max distance you drive each day?

I'd also caution against the idea that 50kwh+ will become the norm. I very much doubt it will. You will be able to get it but you will pay a premium for it. Think along the lines of a Ford Focus that can be bought in 1.4 Petrol and also 2.0 Diesel. There are different size engines and you pay more for the bigger one.... same will be true for EV battery size.

The network won't disappear. It needs to grow as more people use EV's, not fall into disrepair.

I'd happily live with 40 Kwh if I could charge it at 100+ Kw.

The problem is the majority of the Non EV fan public will not accept any EV with anything less than 300 Kms minimum.

jimmycrackcorm

DesperateDan wrote:

What really puts me off is the unpredictable charging network and lack of infrastructure. Just today on the FB group there was a lady who had to drive to 3 separate fcps in Dublin and had a load of hassle getting home.

I think you are right to question it but not because of the example of that lady.

The real issue is that there is no plan, no strategy, no private company coming in, to start creating the soon to be required future public charging network.

Soon to be required ? I'm not so sure about that , electrics currently meet 0.1% of new car sales. At this rate it will be 10 years before we see 5%.

n97 mini

If you never need to use the public CP network, go for it. If you'd be relying on it, forget it, it's not worth the hassle: Too many free loaders (in urban areas) combined with an ever increasing EV population and a stagnant public CP network means not enough chargers to go around.

liamog

The word your looking for is users not free loaders.

Let's take all the animosity and aim it at the proper people, eCars and the CER.

People are using the network as intended, to charge plug in cars as part of a research project that has run it's course.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

The word your looking for is users not free loaders.

Let's take all the animosity and aim it at the proper people, eCars and the CER.

People are using the network as intended, to charge plug in cars as part of a research project that has run it's course.

I'm sorry but using the local FCP for free electricity is not the intended use of the network.

n97 mini

liamog wrote: »

The word your looking for is users not free loaders.

Let's take all the animosity and aim it at the proper people, eCars and the CER.

I'll rephrase. If users who can charge at home but opt not to, and instead go to their local FCP to charge because it's free, stopped that practice then a substantial amount of pressure would be relieved from the FCP network.

ELM327

And on the flip side, I've never had to queue at an FCP outside of dublin & the GDA.
The likes of monaghan, carrick on shannon, ballindine, ballinalack, m4/m1 castlebellingham.

It's an urban issue imo, one that is solved by fees.

liamog

The only info I can find for setting up the current network is as follows.

ecars was established in 2010 by ESB to roll out the charging infrastructure for electric vehicles across Ireland and to support the introduction and demand for electric vehicles nationally.
ecars operates and maintains 1,200 public charge points across the island of Ireland. These are available for electric vehicle (EV) drivers to re-charge their vehicles and enable longer journeys across the country.

https://esb.ie/our-businesses/ecars/about-esb-ecars

I don't see any reference to only being there for enabling longer journeys across the country.

Some users of the network have decided that it should only be used for their desired purpose, and desire that every charger is free when they roll up to it.
I would love this too, but believe the answer is more infrastructure, not less usage.

My worry is that people who want to discourage local charging are going to cost us all in the long run. They are essentially arguing for punitive fees when charging in public to address the infrastructure gap.

Instead of directing the animosity towards other users of the system, we should direct efforts towards improving the levels of infrastructure via eCars, the CER and local politicians. The current infrastructure deficit is a political issue and I'd like EV drivers to form a united front to enable all types of usage.

The current attitude of charging only for long journeys is why eCars think the current infrastructure can support 20,000 vehicles.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

The only info I can find for setting up the current network is as follows.


https://esb.ie/our-businesses/ecars/about-esb-ecars

I don't see any reference to only being there for enabling longer journeys across the country.

Some users of the network have decided that it should only be used for their desired purpose, and desire that every charger is free when they roll up to it.
I would love this too, but believe the answer is more infrastructure, not less usage.

My worry is that people who want to discourage local charging are going to cost us all in the long run. They are essentially arguing for punitive fees when charging in public to address the infrastructure gap.

Instead of directing the animosity towards other users of the system, we should direct efforts towards improving the levels of infrastructure via eCars, the CER and local politicians. The current infrastructure deficit is a political issue and I'd like EV drivers to form a united front to enable all types of usage.

The current attitude of charging only for long journeys is why eCars think the current infrastructure can support 20,000 vehicles.

The intended function of fast chargers is to support you to make a journey outside your car's range. It is not to replace home charging. To suggest otherwise is laughable frankly.

obligatory ecars quote
link

ecars wrote:

Fast chargers are state-of-the-art multi-standard units and are compatible with EVs cars using CCS, CHAdeMO or Fast AC systems. This will ensure that EV drivers travelling throughout the UK and in Ireland can undertake long journeys secure in the knowledge that they will never be far from a Fast charger.

I'm not in favour of punitive fees, just fees that are higher than the cost of charging at home. EG domestic day rates +15% or something.

bk

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not in favour of punitive fees, just fees that are higher than the cost of charging at home. EG domestic day rates +15% or something.

You literally took the words out of my mouth! Though I was going to say +10%

Basically enough to discourage people who have the option to charge at home, while not punishing those who have no other option (apartment dwellers).

unkel

We EV / plug in owners spend far too much of our time bickering over chargers and how to use them. This is not helping anyone. I can only imagine a prospective EV owner coming across the FB group and seeing nothing but pictures of ICEd chargers, fighting among EV owners, etc. Surely most would run a mile and stick to their diesels.

Let's focus on getting better infrastructure instead. And if that's not a runner, charging for charging.

ELM327

bk wrote: »

You literally took the words out of my mouth! Though I was going to say +10%

Basically enough to discourage people who have the option to charge at home, while not punishing those who have no other option (apartment dwellers).

Exactly. Enough to discourage opportunity charging but still make the cost less than diesel.

unkel wrote: »

We EV / plug in owners spend far too much of our time bickering over chargers and how to use them. This is not helping anyone. I can only imagine a prospective EV owner coming across the FB group and seeing nothing but pictures of ICEd chargers, fighting among EV owners, etc. Surely most would run a mile and stick to their diesels.

Let's focus on getting better infrastructure instead. And if that's not a runner, charging for charging.

If there were no freeloading and no icing there would be no bickering. I'm not in facebook so I can't comment what happens in the groups but there is only 1 thread I remember on here about blocked/iced/abusive at chargers and that was Naas.

But I agree, the solution is both of the above that you said, more chargers (at the same locations - so 2 or 3 fcps instead of 1) and also payment for charging.

I think at this stage the free charging is doing more harm than good

DesperateDan

unkel wrote: »

We EV / plug in owners spend far too much of our time bickering over chargers and how to use them. This is not helping anyone. I can only imagine a prospective EV owner coming across the FB group and seeing nothing but pictures of ICEd chargers, fighting among EV owners, etc. Surely most would run a mile and stick to their diesels.

Let's focus on getting better infrastructure instead. And if that's not a runner, charging for charging.

Most definitely feels that way - nothing but ICEd / broken / inaccessible chargers, or chargers with queues coming out of them. If those aren't an issue then it's bickering about charging etiquette

ICEd spots are such a problem I can't understand why they did they not paint every charging spot in the country luminous green at the very least.

It won't put me off getting an EV but I'm sure I'm in a minority.

Lads hasn't this topic been battered to death here ?

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Lads hasn't this topic been battered to death here ?

Are you blocking the thread? :P

I mean, nothing will change before the CER announcement which according to some here was slated for the end of August 2017. Where's the announcement? Another Irish fudge to an Irish problem?

KCross

DesperateDan wrote: »

Most definitely feels that way - nothing but ICEd / broken / inaccessible chargers, or chargers with queues coming out of them. If those aren't an issue then it's bickering about charging etiquette

ICEd spots are such a problem I can't understand why they did they not paint every charging spot in the country luminous green at the very least.

It won't put me off getting an EV but I'm sure I'm in a minority.

As already stated most of the issues are in a couple of hot spots around Dublin. Its not a widespread issue.

If you are considering an EV you should only do so if the car you pick can do your normal daily driving without needing the public infrastructure (i.e. home/work charging). If you need to use it a few times a year for long journeys then you will be fine.

The 40kWh Leaf should keep you away from these issues unless you are doing 200km+ everyday.

Trust me, a 40 Kwh Leaf will make a big difference to long trips a few times a year, 500 kms should be possible with 45-50 min charge, 400 kms driving pretty fast.

If they could knock charging down to 15-20 mins that would also have a big impact but in fairness , it's a good leap from 24 Kwh and even 30 Kwh with 21 and 28 usable Kwh.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

You literally took the words out of my mouth! Though I was going to say +10%

Basically enough to discourage people who have the option to charge at home, while not punishing those who have no other option (apartment dwellers).

It probably doesn't need to be +10%. If it was the same rate as your domestic bill, it would probably suffice. People who could be charging at home on night rate would be unlikely to plug in during the day (either at home or at an FCP) unless they really needed to.

Apartment dwellers will be potentially screwed, but when I lived in the US half the parking spaces in the underground carpark had Level 2 sockets in front of them. This needs to happen here, and our dozy local authorities need to insist on charging options in all future builds.

Future builds isn't enough, there are so many current apartment owners that have no chance to charge.

DesperateDan

Yeah daily commute for me is tiny (30km to and from station), it's the trips to and from Dublin I was thinking could get annoying - round trip is 250km. But as it's only a couple times a month I guess I'm over thinking it.

And my crazy plan of saving up for a Model 3 probably ain't a goer if it's 2020 and over 40k so I'll throw that one out for the moment as well

There'll be very few of us who could live without the likes of autopilot on a Model 3, and some other goodies, so it's going to be north of 40K.

jeremy_g

Deleted User wrote: »

If they could knock charging down to 15-20 mins that would also have a big impact but in fairness , it's a good leap from 24 Kwh and even 30 Kwh with 21 and 28 usable Kwh.

this information might be interesting on that https://fastned.nl/en/blog/post/how-fast-charging-works and https://fastned.nl/nl/blog/post/the-future-of-fast-charging

Having faster charging capability would be great but we will need someone to install chargers and our network is over a year behind now.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Having faster charging capability would be great but we will need someone to install chargers and our network is over a year behind now.

Exactly
>100kW DC exists already, but we will not see any new installs for some time, It's a dead horse.

jeremy_g

my reply was to this:

Deleted User wrote: »

If they could knock charging down to 15-20 mins that would also have a big impact but in fairness

it is simple mathematics not taking into account that the actual efficiency is about 93%

for a 28kWh battery to be charged from 0% to 100% you require 84 kW for 20 minutes or 112 kW for 15 minutes.

28 kWh = 1680 kWmin / 20 min = 84 kW
28 kWh = 1680 kWmin / 15 min = 112 kW

for a 38 kWh battery, supposedly Leaf2:

38 kWh = 2280 kWmin / 20 min = 114 kW
38 kWh = 2280 kWmin / 15 min = 152 kW (this is above what is possible at the moment)

now I watched Bjorn's video on youtube and seems like Leaf2 supports max 50kW, you do the maths.

liamog

You need to use 80% as your benchmark, as batteries restrict the rate of charge after that percentage.
You can also probably use 5% as a minimum state of charge as most people will not be at zero when they plug in.

We should also take into account that it's the range added per min that is more important than direct energy cost.

The 40kWh Leaf2 will need to add 30kWh, which will add ~190km of range.
You would need a 120kW charger to provide this charge in 15 minutes.

The Leaf2 40 is restricted to 50kW Chademo. It's been stated that Leaf2 60 will support up to 150kW DC Charging.
75% of 60kWh is 45kWh and would need a 180kW charger to do 15 minutes. @150kW it's 18 mins.
Assuming that their is a linear progression in range, that would give you 280km of added range in 18 mins.

That's pretty good in my book.

Nissan stated charge to 80% in 40 mins for the 40 Kwh Leaf.

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

You literally took the words out of my mouth! Though I was going to say +10%

Basically enough to discourage people who have the option to charge at home, while not punishing those who have no other option (apartment dwellers).

you may find this graphic useful , its one Im presenting at the LEV taskforce on future chargers tomorrow, Its takes some representative numbers around home charging and compares them to a small diesel. IT shows that there isnt much headroom for FCP pricing , so I agree , Day tarrif + 10-15% is about where it would be at, any more and you begin to come close to break even with small diesel and a leaf at 18kW/100 efficiency (mad_lad etc )

BoatMad

Apartment dwellers will be potentially screwed, but when I lived in the US half the parking spaces in the underground carpark had Level 2 sockets in front of them. This needs to happen here, and our dozy local authorities need to insist on charging options in all future builds.

Gov is considering policy and if necessary legislation in this area

DUnlaoghaire are now requiring it in all new apartment builds

We cant retrospectively force existing apartments to change , that would result in a constitutional challenge

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

You need to use 80% as your benchmark, as batteries restrict the rate of charge after that percentage.
You can also probably use 5% as a minimum state of charge as most people will not be at zero when they plug in.

We should also take into account that it's the range added per min that is more important than direct energy cost.

The 40kWh Leaf2 will need to add 30kWh, which will add ~190km of range.
You would need a 120kW charger to provide this charge in 15 minutes.

The Leaf2 40 is restricted to 50kW Chademo. It's been stated that Leaf2 60 will support up to 150kW DC Charging.
75% of 60kWh is 45kWh and would need a 180kW charger to do 15 minutes. @150kW it's 18 mins.
Assuming that their is a linear progression in range, that would give you 280km of added range in 18 mins.

That's pretty good in my book.

Leaf e-plus ( 60 kWh ) will support Chademo 2 , interesting , not that well see such chargers in Ireland

BoatMad

DesperateDan wrote: »

And my crazy plan of saving up for a Model 3 probably ain't a goer if it's 2020 and over 40k so I'll throw that one out for the moment as well

personally Leaf E-plus ( 60 kWh) with the rumoured NISMO styling is what Nissan believe is their model 3 competitor ( at a lower price point )

we shall see

n97 mini

BoatMad wrote: »

you may find this graphic useful , its one Im presenting at the LEV taskforce on future chargers tomorrow, Its takes some representative numbers around home charging and compares them to a small diesel. IT shows that there isnt much headroom for FCP pricing , so I agree , Day tarrif + 10-15% is about where it would be at, any more and you begin to come close to break even with small diesel and a leaf at 18kW/100 efficiency (mad_lad etc )

I don't really understand your graphic. But FWIW we've owned our Leaf for exactly 1 year. I was expecting fuel cost ratio of 5:1 (i.e. Leaf costs 20% what it costs to run an ICE) but that hasn't been the case. The ICE is a 2004 Civic IMA that typically returns 55mpg (which is way above average for an ICE). Charging off night rate electricity the Leaf has achieved a 7:1 ratio over the Civic. I would think with an average ICE the ratio is therefore probably close to 10:1 (assuming 40mpg). As driving habits have improved with time the Leaf is currently doing 13.8kw/100km.

BoatMad

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't really understand your graphic. But FWIW we've owned our Leaf for exactly 1 year. I was expecting fuel cost ratio of 5:1 (i.e. Leaf costs 20% what it costs to run an ICE) but that hasn't been the case. The ICE is a 2004 Civic IMA that typically returns 55mpg (which is way above average for an ICE). Charging off night rate electricity the Leaf has achieved a 7:1 ratio over the Civic. I would think with an average ICE the ratio is therefore probably close to 10:1 (assuming 40mpg). As driving habits have improved with time the Leaf is currently doing 13.8kw/100km.

The graphic compares a 4.5/litre per 100Km small diesel with a Leaf

I used night rate at 7,5 cents per kWh which is an amalgam, there are rates higher and lower , equally day rate tariffs

I also show break even ( with the diesel ) for a efficient leaf ( taken at 15,5 kW/100) and inefficient ( 18 kW/100km)

I also show the effect of a " projected " FCP price point of 50 cents per kW


In my actually personal case , we are achieving 9:1 saving ratio over the previous petrol car

But I took a more economical modern small diesel

As for Leaf efficiency, the only people getting under 15kW/100km are only doing urban driving and its not representative

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

Gov is considering policy and if necessary legislation in this area

DUnlaoghaire are now requiring it in all new apartment builds

We cant retrospectively force existing apartments to change , that would result in a constitutional challenge

The Multi-Unit Developments Act 2011 created new obligations for existing Multi-Unit Developments. An amendment to this requiring OMCs (Owners Management Companies) to facilitate rather than block installation of charging equipment should not cause a constitutional challenge.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

The Multi-Unit Developments Act 2011 created new obligations for existing Multi-Unit Developments. An amendment to this requiring OMCs (Owners Management Companies) to facilitate rather than block installation of charging equipment should not cause a constitutional challenge.

yes , I know some form of S.I is considering the term " facilitate " but the general view amongst the civil servants is they can't ' force " installations retrospectively

n97 mini

BoatMad wrote: »

The graphic compares a 4.5/litre per 100Km small diesel with a Leaf

I used night rate at 7,5 cents per kWh which is an amalgam, there are rates higher and lower , equally day rate tariffs

I also show break even ( with the diesel ) for a efficient leaf ( taken at 15,5 kW/100) and inefficient ( 18 kW/100km)

I also show the effect of a " projected " FCP price point of 50 cents per kW


In my actually personal case , we are achieving 9:1 saving ratio over the previous petrol car

But I took a more economical modern small diesel

As for Leaf efficiency, the only people getting under 15kW/100km are only doing urban driving and its not representative

These two don't reconcile. Why not show the urban Leaf at (say) 13.8kw/100km as the efficient Leaf? 15.5kw is probably not representative.

BoatMad

n97 mini wrote: »

These two don't reconcile. Why not show the urban Leaf at (say) 13.8kw/100km as the efficient Leaf? 15.5kw is probably not representative.

13.8kw is not representative , other then you Ive never met anyone claiming that level of efficiency for a Leaf

15.4 to 15.6 is typical of a Leaf largely driven at 95 to 105 Kmph

( the point is really moot , the whole point is to show the typical savings ratios and the lack of headroom for substantial FCP pricing regime) In fact the more efficient you make the leaf, the more potentially you can make FCP pricing dearer and thats not what we want , is it ?

liamog

Can you use a BYD e6 for your comparison, it has an EPA reported efficiency of 34kWh/100km.
That should suit us well.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

Can you use a BYD e6 for your comparison, it has an EPA reported efficiency of 34kWh/100km.
That should suit us well.

LOL

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

13.8kw is not representative , other then you Ive never met anyone claiming that level of efficiency for a Leaf

Maybe not, but if one can do 55mpg in a petrol small family car, then one can also do 13.8kWh/100km in a Leaf. Or about 10kWh/100km in an Ioniq

I don't find your graph very intuitive either. Why not some very basic sums comparing 2 modern medium sized efficient cars that would suit a family of 4 or 5:

Diesel: 5l/100km, €1.20/l, so €6 per 100km
EV: 12kWh/100km, 6.65c/kWh plus 10% for inefficiencies while charging, so €0.88 per 100km

So the factor 7 that n97 mini is reporting from his personal experience is actually pretty much spot on for a reasonable comparison

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Maybe not, but if one can do 55mpg in a petrol small family car, then one can also do 13.8kWh/100km in a Leaf. Or about 10kWh/100km in an Ioniq

I don't find your graph very intuitive either. Why not some very basic sums comparing 2 modern medium sized efficient cars that would suit a family of 4 or 5:

Diesel: 5l/100km, €1.20/l, so €6 per 100km
EV: 12kWh/100km, 6.65c/kWh plus 10% for inefficiencies while charging, so €0.88 per 100km

So the factor 7 that n97 mini is reporting from his personal experience is actually pretty much spot on for a reasonable comparison

remember this graph is part of a talked through presentation

It simply compares a 4.5lite /100km diesel with a reasonable efficiently driven Leaf , charged by Day rate and nite rate

its offers a FCP rate of 50 cents per unit as a comparison


Again , note all night rates are 6.5 cents , not all Leafs are at maximum efficiency
few EV with exception of Ioniq are at 12KW /100km

In the future if anything the kW/100 will rise are we get bigger EVs ( EV SUVS etc )

I picked 15kw/100 as thats a reasonable average for a Leaf ( mad_lad is at 18 kW !)


Nothing to be gained by highlighting the most efficient EV on the market , driven carefully ,


The point of the graph is to illustrate that you cant add much to electricity UNIT pricing and EVs quickly loose any running cost saving

Thats the point , to show how limited the FCP pricing head room is , not to illustrate the maximum saving that is possible under certain circumstances ( you have to appreciate the audience here for this whole presentation , 14 slides )

I posted this to show that FCP pricing should be pitched at day Tarrifs plus 10-15%. anything more and an older leaf ( depleted battery , or hard right foot merchant ) suddenly finds FCP charging more expensive then diesel its not graph depicting the best savings an EV can generate over ICE

BoatMad

Maybe not, but if one can do 55mpg in a petrol small family car,

the comparison is with a diesel , as thats the cheapest to run, and 4.5L/100kmn is easily achievable , 13.8 in a leaf is NOT easily achievable

BoatMad

So the factor 7 that n97 mini is reporting from his personal experience is actually pretty much spot on for a reasonable comparison

personally I am achieving a 10:1 over previous ICE, but thats not the point of the graph or the presentation. The point is to show that you dont have to add much to a day tarrif to make public charging more expensive then diesel for certain EV categories

unkel

Thanks for doing the presentation, and I suppose it's best not to make the case for EVs look too rosy

BoatMad wrote: »

the comparison is with a diesel , as thats the cheapest to run, and 4.5L/100kmn is easily achievable , 13.8 in a leaf is NOT easily achievable

If you average 4.5l in a 5 seater diesel, then you can average 13.8kWh in a Leaf and vice versa. Particularly if you are in half the population of this country that lives in the greater Dublin area. Maybe you won't make it in the Leaf if you live elsewhere and do a lot of motorway driving.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Thanks for doing the presentation, and I suppose it's best not to make the case for EVs look too rosy

exactly, the more we make the savings look even better the more headroom its gives for FCP price differentials over home charging , hence if you mix/maxed say a carefully driven Ioniq against a gas guzzling ICE, it would suggest you could load FCP pricing and still achieve meaningful savings etc .

But then again, thats not the average case is it

If you average 4.5l in a 5 seater diesel, then you can average 13.8kWh in a Leaf and vice versa. Particularly if you are in half the population of this country that lives in the greater Dublin area. Maybe you won't make it in the Leaf if you live elsewhere and do a lot of motorway driving.

OK I test driven several new small diesels on long journeys . getting around 4.5L/100km is easily achievable

After 78,000km in my 30 kWH leaf, NOTHING will lower the efficiencies below 15kw/100km The only way that can be done is to ONLY do urban driving , i.e. speeds at or below 60 km

urban drivers of EVs have little interest in " fuel " savings

I have polled 10 Leafs drivers in the IEVOA , some with 2011 Leafs, and depleted batteries and some with 17D 30kwh leafs

I am happy my efficieny figures accurately portray a " reasonable " average . or a standard use Leaf and a degraded battery leaf

n97 mini

BoatMad wrote: »

urban drivers of EVs have little interest in " fuel " savings

I don't understand this statement. Surely the #1 reason most people bought an EV is fuel savings? I don't think their location changes that.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't understand this statement. Surely the #1 reason most people bought an EV is fuel savings? I don't think their location changes that.

Yes but the savings are so vast that they are not going to try to drive efficiently, I think was the point?

(My average from the last ~5k km was over 20kWh/100km so I can't complain :p:p:p)