Benefits of Religious Education

Mark Hamill

I hope this is OK, the thread from a parent whose son was having issues opting out of a religion class was closed because the OP got a satisfactory outcome, but I would like to continue the tangential discussion that arose between myself and Frowzy, about the content and benefit of the Irish religious education curriculum.

robindch

^^^ Polite, if robust, discussion is good.

Pray, continue

Mark Hamill

(quoted post is here)

Frowzy wrote:

I have answered Marks questions previously, if a moderator is going to reprimand me for not answering his questions please ensure you read my previous posts. If Mark is to moderate the forum from the backseat then so be it, but he's just asking questions I have already given my answers to. Even though I will again be reprimanded for quoting so many posts I have to because it's obvious that I have expressed my viewpoint and reasons for same previously.

Obviously there is no continuity here and if you disagree with a poster you will be reprimanded. I hate repeating myself!

OP, I am delighted that you got a successful outcome. I'm sorry the thread got derailed and I am appalled that any teacher shhold teach such hateful content in a school. This is for the principal to deal with not you.

I wish your son all the best for the future and am glad that he is strong enough to stand up for his beliefs.

I have reread all of your posts which you quoted and I still don't see how they answer my questions.

In each of your posts you talk about your beliefs about how religion is/should be taught and what is gotten out of it, e.g.:

My personal belief is that to be a well rounded member of society that it is important that our children understand the viewpoints and beliefs of other religions/beliefs, otherwise how can they respect others viewpoints?

My belief, which I understand differs to yours, is that we can only be patient and tolerant when we understand where the other persons beliefs come from.

but my first question was "How does a religion class actually teach of this?".
Exactly how do you think religion classes teach respect and tolerance?

My second question was "Why should it be taught specifically through religion classes when patience and tolerance go far beyond religious beliefs?". You believe that religion can teach tolerance and respect, but you haven't explained why wither only religion can, or why religion is best suited to teach them. To put this another way, why can't another non-religious class, e.g. civics class, include topics of tolerance and patience?
People, presumably, need to be tolerant and respectful of others non-religious lifestyles, we should be tolerant and respectful of other peoples sexuality, political beliefs and even hobbies - is religion class really the best place to teach that kind of tolerance and respect, rather than a non-religious class that covers it in general?

Wanderer78

Sorry folks, but Id mirror ul lecturer Stephen kinsellas opinion on this one, religion and religious orders shouldn't be a part of our educational system in the format that it is, I agree with him in that, it's just weird. I do like the educate together idea though, on how we should approach this, we must become tolerant of each other's beliefs, to find some common ground

LeinsterDub

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I do like the educate together idea though, on how we should approach this, we must become tolerant of each other's beliefs, to find some common ground

We don't waste hours upon hours a week talking about Fairies or Thor. If you want your child to learn about your chosen God do it on your own time.

Wanderer78

LeinsterDub wrote:

We don't waste hours upon hours a week talking about Fairies or Thor. If you want your child to learn about your chosen God do it on your own time.

Yea it's a difficult debate, but coming from a Catholic schooling background, and looking back on it, it was all a bit weird. Please be aware, I'm an atheist or possibly agnostic, religion plays little or no time in my life, but I'd like to think I respect others beliefs. Am I right in saying the educate together schools try to teach all the kids about different religions and beliefs?

LeinsterDub

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Am I right in saying the educate together schools try to teach all the kids about different religions and beliefs?

Nope they should try teach kids actual life skills not a load of nonsense. The time spent on religion would be much better spent on PE for example or mental health.

robindch

Wanderer78 wrote: »

[...] we must become tolerant of each other's beliefs, to find some common ground

Reasonable common grounds are a) to respect each other's right to hold a belief, even if we disagree with that belief; b) to respect each other's right to disagree with that belief, politely and appropriately; and c) to respect a belief holds no rights of its own, and is held separate from the person holding that belief (so that criticism of the belief can never be understood as criticism of the person holding the belief).

To a large extent, religions can ignore c), often have problems with b) and sometimes with a) too.

Wanderer78

LeinsterDub wrote:

Nope they should try teach kids actual life skills not a load of nonsense. The time spent on religion would be much better spent on PE for example or mental health.

I do agree with you in that we should be focusing more on providing kids with better ways of maintaining their physical and mental well being, than what we are currently doing, if I had my way, I'd ditch a large proportion of the curriculum for such measures. We are currently doing an extremely poor job of doing so. But I would class the educational importance of religious beliefs as looking after kids mental well being, as it would explain to kids that there are different people in the world with different beliefs to theirs, and this is ok to. We must become tolerant of one anothers beliefs, to find some sort of common ground, to live in some sort of harmony and not fear each other as this increases the likelihood of conflict and destruction. Man has always had some sort of mystical, spiritual, religious awareness, this will never change, it's a part of our species, we must embrace it, not fear it, we must learn to respect one another, not fear one another. I do believe this is vital for the longevity and survival of our species

smacl

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Am I right in saying the educate together schools try to teach all the kids about different religions and beliefs?

AFAIK, it is covered in the ethics class which is the subject that replaces religious education in the ET curriculum. Both my kids went to an ET primary and my youngest goes to an ET secondary. As atheist kids with no other exposure to religion, some understanding of the beliefs people hold is IMHO beneficial. If they were reliant entirely on the media they'd be left with the view that Catholics are primarily paedophiles and child murderers and Muslims terrorists, suicide bombers and refugees. While true in some extreme cases, it hardly reflects the everyday people you meet in Irish society.

silverharp

I don't think there is any harm that a child gets a knowledge of some of the major characters of the old and new T. Its interwoven into Western culture , literature and music etc. In fact they should beef up the Grecco Roman side of things it adds an interesting depth to an education

smacl

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Man has always had some sort of mystical, spiritual, religious awareness, this will never change, it's a part of our species, we must embrace it, not fear it

I'm with you up until this point, but I think the above is very dubious. You don't need mysticism or religion to have a sense of wonder, awe, joy or the notion that you are a tiny component part of a larger universe. These things often get confused with a supernatural idea of spirituality, often very purposefully by religious groups in order to control and grow their membership.

LeinsterDub

smacl wrote: »

If they were reliant entirely on the media they'd be left with the view that Catholics are primarily paedophiles and child murderers and Muslims terrorists, suicide bombers and refugees. While true in some extreme cases, it hardly reflects the everyday people you meet in Irish society.

That's why kids have parents, family and friends. It's not schools job to teach kids the simple morals such as not tarring everyone with the one brush

smacl

silverharp wrote: »

I don't think there is any harm that a child gets a knowledge of some of the major characters of the old and new T. Its interwoven into Western culture , literature and music etc. In fact they should beef up the Grecco Roman side of things it adds an interesting depth to an education

Yep, one of the other subjects taught in ET in place of religion is classics. Had some great fun with the kids at homework time on this re-living old Greek legends.

smacl

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That's why kids have parents, family and friends. It's not schools job to teach kids the simple morals such as not tarring everyone with the one brush

I don't agree. Schools will have kids from lots of different traditions and are the ideal place to teach the importance of pluralism and inclusion. Parents, family and friends are also liable to pass down their prejudices and might have little experience or tolerance in dealing with people from different backgrounds.

LeinsterDub

smacl wrote: »

I don't agree. Schools will have kids from lots of different traditions and are the ideal place to teach the importance of pluralism and inclusion. Parents, family and friends are also liable to pass down their prejudices and might have little experience or tolerance in dealing with people from different backgrounds.

But pluralism and inclusion are non religious concepts. I agree with you schools have a role in teaching kids to share and be nice to each other it doesn't however have to be done through a religious lens.

looksee

LeinsterDub wrote: »

But pluralism and inclusion are non religious concepts. I agree with you schools have a role in teaching kids to share and be nice to each other it doesn't however have to be done through a religious lens.

I think that is missing the point that smacl is making. You are right that social behaviour does not have to be taught through a religious lens, but teaching children the facts about other people's beliefs, customs and way of life does not have to be done through any lens.

smacl

LeinsterDub wrote: »

But pluralism and inclusion are non religious concepts. I agree with you schools have a role in teaching kids to share and be nice to each other it doesn't however have to be done through a religious lens.

No argument there. I have no time for mandatory religion, religious instruction or the apologetics that seem to be the basis of most religious education classes. At the same time I think that teaching children to be inclusive, mindful and considerate to other people regardless of their background is very important. In some ways I'd consider religion to be parasitic, in that it tries to take exclusive ownership of these traits while in many ways working against them. So while a religion might promote certain ethical values it is wrong to suggest that makes those ethical values essentially religious, or that ethics is bound by the dogma of any or all religions.

sbsquarepants

My personal feelings on the matter is that anything thought through a religious prism is basically cheapened.

You should not treat other people with respect because a sky fairy will be pleased with you and give you a reward. You should do it because it is the right thing to do - independent of the wishes of others, both real and imaginary.

If the only reason you are nice to your neighbour is to curry favour with someone else, then you are not that nice at all, you are simply a user. You are in effect viewing the neighbour as a pawn to be traded for your own benefit.

I can't see any benefit in religion at all that can't be gotten elsewhere - bar the obvious one, everlasting life. In fact these days, even that is getting close to being offered through technology rather than magic.

Should that day ever arrive, I thinks religions grip on humanity could finally be broken.

What happens when we die Daddy? - Well, we get digitised and play for all eternity in a server farm son!

rainbow kirby

Ethics, philosophy, learning about religion (This is what $INSERT_FAITH_HERE believes) at school - fine

Religious instruction/faith formation - not for school, should be done within the specific religious community (Sunday school etc).

Samaris

If you'll excuse the slight side-meander, two classes/topics that should receive more planning and attention are Civics (CSPE, whatever) and religion. Both in my experience were regarded as rather doss classes and the teachers didn't really seem to know what should be going on for CSPE in particular (it was early in its introduction, and it was still a bit airy-fairy). Religion, ofc, was How To Be A Good Catholic.

CSPE: Why vote, right to vote, how to move vote around if needed, this is how you do a tax return, these are the laws we have and why, discuss. This is the constitution of Ireland - these are the Constitutions of the UK, US, other countries with different ruling systems. Why do we have it, what laws are under it, why are some under it and others extrapolated from it. This is the declaration of Human Rights, why is this important? Political debates - what IS right-wing, left-wing, centrism, extremism and why do they arise. What is fiscal Conservatism and what is a neo-liberal anyway? What do the extremes of different paths look like? What topical debates are going on and why are they political issues. What is the EU and why are we in it, what is Ireland's position in it, how is it run and why is it run like that, etc etc. There is loads if the curriculum will actually take advantage of it. And make it an exam subject - these are things that everyone will have to understand to some extent. It should be treated as important, not as a class to be sacrificed for more exam-heavy ones.

Religion: World religions, their histories and interactions with each other, their effects on cultural development and legal development in various countries. What is secularism and what is agnosticism/atheism. Why do Jewish people not eat X, Muslims not eat Y, Catholics and the whole fish on Fridays custom, Hindus not eat Z. How has Catholicism shaped Ireland and a side-running study of how X religion has shaped X other culture (plenty to pick from). Why do some religions have ancient enmities and others have ancient connections and even accept each other. Why do schisms happen and what does that mean - parallel examples of Catholicism/Protestantism and Sunni and Shia (although there are plenty of others to choose from). Why is religion anyway? (This may upset some people). Maybe make that an exam subject, under the heading of World Religions and Cultures or something. Why is it okay to not have a religion in some countries, but forbidden in others? Moral issues stemming from clash of cultures, etc. What is morality and why do some people claim a monopoly on morality? What is the dark side of religious teaching (extremism) and why does it happen? How do you recognise it?

There is a lot that can be covered in both types of class, so why the hell don't we?

Michael Nugent

There is a set of guidelines called the Toledo Guiding Principles for teaching about religions and beliefs in a pluralist society. It was put together by a team of educational and religious professionals under the auspices of the OSCE. It is based on human rights principles such as freedom of religion and belief and freedom from discrimination. Atheist Ireland supports the Toledo Guiding Principles.

The key point of the Toledo principles is that schools should teach children about religions and beliefs in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner. The only OSCE state that has rejected the Toledo principles is the Holy See, because it is against Catholic Church teaching on education to teach about religion in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner.

Partly as a result of lobbying of successive Governments by Atheist Ireland, the NCCA recently tried to put in place a course in Irish primary schools that would teach about religions, beliefs, and ethics (ERBE). The NCCA wanted this new course to be delivered in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner, in accordance with the Toledo principles.

The Catholic Church has effectively halted the bringing in of this new proposed course, because it is against Catholic Church teaching on education to teach about religion in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner.

The bottom line seems to be that we will not have religious education in Ireland that respects the human rights of all children, parents, and teachers, until control of Irish schools is removed from the hands of the Catholic church.

recedite

Samaris wrote: »

If you'll excuse the slight side-meander, two classes/topics that should receive more planning and attention are Civics (CSPE, whatever) and religion.

Why not merge the two? A lot of the value in teaching "about religion" comes from getting kids to understand other peoples religion. And therefore how to get along with others better.
Also the problems (or benefits) that religious influence can bring to civil/secular society. So the relevance is all tied in with CSPE/civics really.
Ethics could also be thrown into the mix there, being relevant for similar reasons.

I know that's not going to be a runner though. Far too many vested interests and rulebooks stipulating the importance of religion as a standalone subject. I'm just pointing out that if you were designing the education system from scratch, that would be the way to go.

robindch

Mark Hamill wrote: »

the content and benefit of the Irish religious education curriculum.

Can't verify this, but the Polish edition of Newsweek is reporting that catholic school books in Polish schools are faintly lacking when it comes to the matter of accuracy:

http://m.newsweek.pl/polska/spoleczenstwo/edukacja-wg-pis-o-czym-ucza-sie-dzieci-w-szkole-po-reformie-,artykuly,416211,1.html

Via google-translate:

Catholic Church in Poland wrote:

"Masturbation is a sin greater than the dropping of an atomic bomb."

"Mixed marriages often fail - most marriages with Arabs fall apart, while around 75% of marriages with negroes collapse.

"Subject yourself to every human authority for the sake of the Lord."

etc, etc

Somebody with better Polish than mine can have a go at the rest of it

Samaris

recedite wrote: »

Why not merge the two? A lot of the value in teaching "about religion" comes from getting kids to understand other peoples religion. And therefore how to get along with others better.
Also the problems (or benefits) that religious influence can bring to civil/secular society. So the relevance is all tied in with CSPE/civics really.
Ethics could also be thrown into the mix there, being relevant for similar reasons.

Hm, I hadn't considered that, partly because I think I was figuring that there was enough in both to merit separate classes, but there is a lot of crossover between culture, religion and legal systems. Certainly worth knowing how they interconnect, and I suppose the edges are a bit fuzzy if you're trying to keep them separate. With a good curriculum (a hell of a lot better than the CSPE curriculum I did!), it could be very valuable, although the forty fits the RCC would throw would probably be messy.

robindch wrote: »

Can't verify this, but the Polish edition of Newsweek is reporting that catholic school books in Polish schools are faintly lacking when it comes to the matter of accuracy:

http://m.newsweek.pl/polska/spoleczenstwo/edukacja-wg-pis-o-czym-ucza-sie-dzieci-w-szkole-po-reformie-,artykuly,416211,1.html

Via google-translate:Somebody with better Polish than mine can have a go at the rest of it

Funny how the overall Catholic Church doesn't say most of that. I have a workmate from Poland who once commented that he avoids the news from home now as it's too bloody depressing. Poland and Hungary are egging each other on at this point.

robindch

Samaris wrote: »

Funny how the overall Catholic Church doesn't say most of that.

Up to a point, that's true, though some of the garbled translations provided certainly aren't a million miles from mainstream catholic preaching. But there are two relevant extenuating circumstances a) the RCC memespace, particularly in the area of social justice warrioring, is now being populated with hardline messaging form the well-funded US protestant consumer base and b) believers with moderate opinions are abandoning religion in droves, so the entire RCC consumer base is both shrinking while becoming markedly more hardline.

sbsquarepants

"Masturbation is a sin greater than the dropping of an atomic bomb."

:eek:
I find it hard see the logic in the whole no masturbation doctrine, but that aside - if you want to say it's a sin, go ahead - but worse than nuking somewhere - jaysus - that's overkill surely!


Disclaimer: Anyone who knows me will attest to me being a wanker - so I may be biased!

Michael Nugent

robindch wrote: »

believers with moderate opinions are abandoning religion in droves, so the entire RCC consumer base is both shrinking while becoming markedly more hardline.

This statement is true in the developed world, but the opposite is the case in the developing world. Overall, what is happening is that the RCC consumer base is shifting from the developed to the developing world and becoming more hardline.

PopePalpatine

robindch wrote: »

Can't verify this, but the Polish edition of Newsweek is reporting that catholic school books in Polish schools are faintly lacking when it comes to the matter of accuracy:

http://m.newsweek.pl/polska/spoleczenstwo/edukacja-wg-pis-o-czym-ucza-sie-dzieci-w-szkole-po-reformie-,artykuly,416211,1.html

Via google-translate:Somebody with better Polish than mine can have a go at the rest of it

So...what if that "human authority" is Communist? :pac: