Is there anything constructive I can do about this discrimination?

Choochtown · 11-09-2017 6:31pm #1

My son is in 5th year in a VEC secondary school and has opted out of religion.

Everyone in his class is allowed to sit where they want during religion except for him. The religion teacher makes him sit at the front.
Moreover the teacher will not let him do any work during the class saying that it is "unfair" on the other students.

The principal has backed the teacher and said that if my son wants to do something in religion class he must bring a book relevant to his own faith (he is not religious whatsoever) and read it in class! Otherwise he must sit still and bored during class. The only other alternative that has been offered is for me to pick him up from school during religion class and leave him back afterwards which is simply not practical.

I think it is ridiculous that a leaving Cert student is being denied the right to study but from what I can gather there is nothing that I can do about it.

I have telephoned the principal to discuss this but as yet they have been unable to take my call.

Any advice would be welcomed.

looksee · 11-09-2017 6:42pm

Write to the local VEC main office and state your case. There does appear to be a degree of deliberate obstruction going on.

Stheno · 11-09-2017 6:44pm

Do leaving cert students have to do religion? When I did mine outside of English Irish and maths you choose your subjects

Might have changed

Choochtown · 11-09-2017 7:10pm

Stheno wrote: »

Do leaving cert students have to do religion? When I did mine outside of English Irish and maths you choose your subjects

Might have changed

Yeah he's timetabled for 2 periods a week with no alternative.

spurious · 11-09-2017 7:15pm

The VEC acts say he should have 2 hours. The Church's fingers dug in deep even in the schools that were not theirs.

You can't really do anything about him not being allowed leave the room unsupervised (major insurance issues for the school), but the sitting at the front of the class is a load of cobblers powerplay by the teacher.

The seating requirement means he is being victimised for his (lack of) religion. A well worded letter to the VEC/ETB (and/or the school sub-committee/board) and the many political folk on such bodies will sort that in no time.

Choochtown · 11-09-2017 7:18pm

looksee wrote: »

Write to the local VEC main office and state your case. There does appear to be a degree of deliberate obstruction going on.

I may do that if I get no progress with the Principal.

silverharp · 11-09-2017 10:03pm

seems oppressive and stressful for your son, at least request that he should be allowed read a general fiction book

Tenigate · 11-09-2017 10:09pm

A book on philosophy or psychology (mindfulness or something light like that) might be a solution that benefits your son and is acceptable to the school.
Not everything needs to be a battle!

robindch · 12-09-2017 12:01am

You could contact the good folks over in Atheist Ireland at their education-facing website, Teach Don't Preach which is here:

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/

There's a range of standard letters and approaches documented on the website and one of these might be able to help you out. If none do, then you should try getting in touch with Jane Donnelly, AI's Education Officer - she has a wealth of experience of dealing with discrimination and unfair behaviour in Irish schools and I'm sure she'll be able to offer some useful guidance.

Lucy8080 · 12-09-2017 2:36am

Practically, you and the school are in a bind. You have permission to absent your child from the school/ they must have some legal issues/duties if he remains .

I can understand why your child has been given a specific seating arrangement, as I'm sure,likewise, that you would rather not have your child's best friend sitting beside him in a maths class, if the friend had opted out of maths. There is going to be a bit of messing, we all know that.

I don't think this is discrimination, it would be fair enough that your kid may not do homework in the class.

But, s/he should be allowed to use that time to quietly read a text book relating to subjects that s/he is taking/opting into.

I think you could reasonably defend that position to the head teacher.

Face to face friendly chat would be my advice.

Peregrinus · 12-09-2017 2:45am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I don't think this is discrimination, it would be fair enough that your kid may not do homework in the class.

I don't see why this is "fair enough" at all. It seems most unfair to me.

Effectively, because of his subject choices, the boy has a free period at this time. Ideally there'd be a study/library/similar where students with a free period could go and study/work/read independently, but I get that resourcing issues may make this not possible. That's unfortunate, but it's not in itself discrimination.

But the next best thing would be that he stays in his classroom and reads/works/studies independently in a quiet and unobtrusive fashion. If I was the teacher I'd rather have him at the back of the class than at the front but, hey, I don't know the guy; there's some students that you always want to keep a close eye on, and he could be one. I wouldn't second-guess the teacher on that point.

But I can see no justification for telling him that he cannot study or work independently at this time. He's in fifth year; he's supposed to be developing the skills for indendent, self-directed work. If his actions or attitudes become disruptive, that's one thing, but if he want to sit there and quietly do his history essay or his maths homework or his French revision, how on earth does "fairness" to the other students require that he be prevented from doing that?

Lucy8080 · 12-09-2017 3:06am

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't see why this is "fair enough" at all. It seems most unfair to me.

It's classed as " homework". The school is offering the option to take the child home /off the premises to the parent. What happens then is out of the schools hands. Do homework/go for a spin..the school has afforded this option.

That is why I consider it a fair enough option.

If you go ( we leave it to your parent) if you stay ( school rules).

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-09-2017 3:23am

silverharp wrote: »

seems oppressive and stressful for your son, at least request that he should be allowed read a general fiction book

Maybe the Bible?

tritriagain · 12-09-2017 4:31am

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Maybe the Bible?

Let him bring in God is not great by hitchens. That'll really stir it up.

CabanSail · 12-09-2017 6:27am

I am not sure if I am reading it correctly. He has opted out of Religion but he still has to stay in the class while it is being taught?

Could he not opt back in again and spend the period asking awkward questions instead? It's not like there is a shortage of them.

Maybe a big book of the History of Satanic Rituals and Human Sacrifice would be a good choice to read during the class? I wonder if the skull of a goat may be going too far?

Mark Hamill · 12-09-2017 11:04am

Choochtown wrote: »

Moreover the teacher will not let him do any work during the class saying that it is "unfair" on the other students.

If your son doing school work doing religion would be unfair on the other students then maybe suggest that those other students should be doing school work too.

Mark Hamill · 12-09-2017 11:07am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

It's classed as " homework". The school is offering the option to take the child home /off the premises to the parent. What happens then is out of the schools hands. Do homework/go for a spin..the school has afforded this option.

That is why I consider it a fair enough option.

If you go ( we leave it to your parent) if you stay ( school rules).

Since when does the location that you do "homework" in make any difference to what you get out of it?

Mark Hamill · 12-09-2017 11:14am

Choochtown wrote: »

Everyone in his class is allowed to sit where they want during religion except for him. The religion teacher makes him sit at the front.

Front and centre or front and at either side? Front and at the side could be a case of what Peregrinus mentions, the teacher wanting to keep an extra eye on him for whatever reason. Front and centre is the teacher religiously discriminating against your son. Not only does it encourage the other students to do the same, it makes him feel out of place by making him stand out as much as possible in the most conspicuous space in the class. It would be like PE teacher requiring a disabled pupil always be front and centre for team picking even if they couldn't actually play the sport.

Frankly, I would go into the school and not leave until they agree to cop themselves on. The teachers are there for your student, not vice-versa, and nothing you want will take resources or teacher time away from any other student.

Ultimate Seduction · 12-09-2017 11:36am

You're only hearing your sons side of it though. The fact he doesn't have to tune in during class, he could have been messing at back, disrupting other students.

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kylith · 12-09-2017 12:48pm

I'd be inclined to outfit him with copies of The God Delusion, Disproving Christianity, No Sacred Cows, and the like.

It'd preposterous that he can't get other work done. When I was in school the Protestant kids did their homework down the back of the class.

MrPudding · 12-09-2017 4:16pm

kylith wrote: »

I'd be inclined to outfit him with copies of The God Delusion, Disproving Christianity, No Sacred Cows, and the like.

It'd preposterous that he can't get other work done. When I was in school the Protestant kids did their homework down the back of the class.

My kids are in school in France now, so glad I don't have to put up with this. Even in England, where they were previously, it was a pain. They were at a non-faith school that had a "broadly christian ethos", which seems to mean getting evangelical christians in on a regular basis to run assemblies and have teachers (not the just the evangelicals) tell the kids sh1t like Noah's Ark was a true story.

MrP

Lucy8080 · 13-09-2017 12:47am

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Since when does the location that you do "homework" in make any difference to what you get out of it?

Well, if you do it in this school during class , i'm guessing it might result in a detention.

I'm not arguing against this kid being allowed do his homework in the class.It's up to the school.

The school has decided this policy. I would imagine that it's the same rule for all kids. So, no discrimination there. It's a fair enough refusal.

They also allow those who opt of of religious studies to leave the premises for the duration. So, no discrimination there.

"Discrimination" seems to be an ill chosen word here. It seems to me that the o.p. hasn't the resources/time to facilitate taking their child out of school. I would imagine that the school hasn't the time/ resources to facilitate a supervised study library.

The only issue here is that the teacher is being a tad inflexible about what textbooks s/he allows to be read .

A friendly chat would more than likely resolve that issue.

I'm also guessing that this is a religious studies class ,rather than an indoctrination/evangelising class. If i recall correctly , A.I. don't have any issues with that kind of format so i'm not sure what they could bring to the table.

edit; If the textbook has to be pertaining to religion ,well the only other option seems to be a book which debunks religion. I'm guessing the teacher won't want that and would be open to a compromise.

Lucy8080 · 13-09-2017 1:01am

I don't understand why a fifth year student needs a parent to pick them up. Is there any way , written approval from the parent say, to get around this? It seems a bit nanny state.

Peregrinus · 13-09-2017 3:50am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I don't understand why a fifth year student needs a parent to pick them up. Is there any way , written approval from the parent say, to get around this? It seems a bit nanny state.

Not nearly as nanny state as dictating that a fifth year student may not do homework during a free period.

I get that the "no homework during a free period" rule need not be discriminatory, if it applies to every student who has a free period for whatever reason. (If it only applies to students who have a free period because they have opted out of religion, then is is discriminatory.) But the fact that it may not be discriminatory does not mean that it is either fair or reasonable.

Lucy8080 · 13-09-2017 9:31am

looksee wrote: »

Write to the local VEC main office and state your case. There does appear to be a degree of deliberate obstruction going on.

It seems to me that this teacher is obliging the o.p. by letting the child sit in with the class. A class that the child has opted out of. The teacher is being treated like a baby-sitter.

It's kind of insulting to his professional integrity. I doubt if the teacher has any obligation towards this kid. His duty is to those kids who are taking the subject.

If the parent can't take responsibility for the child's free time, then maybe the child should take the class ,as it seems s/he is going to be there anyway.

How would any teacher feel about a scenario in which a kid can sit in the classroom and have a pass to totally ignore the subject,whilst every other kid has to participate.

My guess is that the school/teacher are praying that the o.p. has the nerve to go make a complaint.

Take the class .Take the offer of babysitting, but to demand that the kid can study any other subject bar this teachers subject in this teachers own classroom, well , that is taking the proverbial.

No teacher, of any subject, should have to put up with that nonsense.

Lucy8080 · 13-09-2017 9:35am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not nearly as nanny state as dictating that a fifth year student may not do homework during a free period.

I get that the "no homework during a free period" rule need not be discriminatory, if it applies to every student who has a free period for whatever reason. (If it only applies to students who have a free period because they have opted out of religion, then is is discriminatory.) But the fact that it may not be discriminatory does not mean that it is either fair or reasonable.

The child can do his homework during the free period. If the o.p. makes the proper arrangements.

Every other kid in the classroom probably has the same homework. Why should this kid get to do homework and the rest have to take the class?

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smacl · 13-09-2017 9:41am

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the fact that it may not be discriminatory does not mean that it is either fair or reasonable.

Agreed entirely. Students in the senior cycle hoping to get a decent leaving cert have more than enough work to do without this kind of nonsense.

smacl · 13-09-2017 9:43am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Every other kid in the classroom probably has the same homework. Why should this kid get to do homework and the rest have to take the class?

Because the child isn't taking the class, it is a de facto free period for him and he is only in that classroom at that time because he has to be under the supervision of a teacher while on school premises. Ideally, he should be able to go to the library to study or do homework.

Peregrinus · 13-09-2017 9:45am

Lucy8080 wrote: »

It seems to me that this teacher is obliging the o.p. by letting the child sit in with the class. A class that the child has opted out of. The teacher is being treated like a baby-sitter.

It's kind of insulting to his professional integrity. I doubt if the teacher has any obligation towards this kid. His duty is to those kids who are taking the subject.

If the parent can't take responsibility for the child's free time, then maybe the child should take the class ,as it seems s/he is going to be there anyway.

How would any teacher feel about a scenario in which a kid can sit in the classroom and have a pass to totally ignore the subject,whilst every other kid has to participate.

My guess is that the school/teacher are praying that the o.p. has the nerve to go make a complaint.

Take the class .Take the offer of babysitting, but to demand that the kid can study any other subject bar this teachers subject in this teachers own classroom, well , that is taking the proverbial.

No teacher, of any subject, should have to put up with that nonsense.

The teacher is not obliging the OP. The OP doesn't want their son to be in the class, and the student himself does not want to be there. It's the school that's insisting that he be there - presumably, so that they don't have to provide another staff member to supervise him.

The bottom line here is that the student has a legal right to opt out of religious instruction, and he has exercised that right. This presents the school with resourcing problem, but that is not the student's fault, or his parent's fault. The solution is to have the boy present in the classroom where religious instruction is provided so that he is not unsupervised, which I get may not be entirely satisfactory from the teacher's point of view, but it's not entirely satisfactory from the student's point of view either; it's certainly not being done as a favour to him or to his parents.

And I still do not see why the teacher's position is made any worse if the student spends his timing doing, say, Maths, rather than reading aimlessly or gazing out of the window.

Is there anything constructive I can do about this discrimination?

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