Private operator Ashbourne Connect to raise fares

StreetLight

Private operator Ashbourne Connect have announced a significant rise to many of its fares on its Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/Ashbourneconnect/

Not a good reaction from the replies - quite a few saying they will return to Bus Éireann.

prinzeugen

StreetLight wrote: »

Private operator Ashbourne Connect have announced a significant rise to many of its fares on its Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/Ashbourneconnect/

Not a good reaction from the replies - quite a few saying they will return to Bus Éireann.

I see no bad replies on the Facebook link you posted.

StreetLight

Scroll down to the posting on 14 September.

liger

StreetLight wrote: »

Private operator Ashbourne Connect have announced a significant rise to many of its fares on its Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/Ashbourneconnect/

Not a good reaction from the replies - quite a few saying they will return to Bus Éireann.

I love how they say due to the rising fuel and driver costs. I'd hate to be the drivers who will now have all the passengers looking at them blaming them for needing to pay extra.

Anybody know if drivers there got a pay increase ?

magicbastarder

having a 10 journey ticket that's valid for 8 calendar days is a bit odd. is that limitation imposed by the leap card or the operator?

devnull

It's a pretty steep rise.

I also don't buy the argument they need to buy vehicles at 300k a pop. They don't have to be brand new.

LXFlyer

Here's an analysis of the fare changes - fairly steep all right.

The monthly taxsaver is gone, only three monthly and annual tickets are now available, but they have stayed at the same prices.

I suspect that they certainly will lose much of the ad hoc customers. They are definitely focussing on regular commuters here.

Revised Ashbourne Connect Fares To Dublin City
Current New % Change

Adult Single LEAP 5.00 9.00 80%
Adult Return LEAP 8.00 10.00 25%
Adult 10 Journey LEAP 37.50 45.00 20%

Adult Single Cash 6.00 10.00 67%
Adult Return Cash 8.50 11.00 29%

Child / Student Single LEAP 4.00 8.00 100%
Child / Student Return LEAP 6.00 9.00 50%
Child / Student 10 Journey LEAP 30.00 42.00 40%

Child / Student Single Cash 6.00 10.00 67%
Child / Student Return Cash 8.50 11.00 29%


Revised Ashbourne Connect Fares To Ballsbridge / UCD
Current New % Change

Adult Single LEAP 5.00 10.00 100%
Adult Return LEAP 8.00 11.00 38%
Adult 10 Journey LEAP 37.50 45.00 20%

Adult Single Cash 6.00 11.00 83%
Adult Return Cash 8.50 12.00 41%


Child / Student Single LEAP 4.00 9.00 125%
Child / Student Return LEAP 6.00 10.00 67%
Child / Student 10 Journey LEAP 30.00 42.00 40%

Child / Student Single Cash 6.00 11.00 83%
Child / Student Return Cash 8.50 12.00 41%




Comparison with BE 103 Ashbourne to Dublin
Ash Conn BE Difference

Adult Single LEAP 9.00 4.96 4.04
Adult Return LEAP* 10.00 8.70 1.30
Adult 10 Journey (AC) / Adult Weekly (BE) LEAP 45.00 39.15 5.85

Adult Single Cash 10.00 6.20 3.80
Adult Return Cash 11.00 9.20 1.80

3 Monthly Taxsaver (BE is 3 x Monthly) 460.00 450.00 10.00
Annual Taxsaver 1,675.00 1,620.00 55.00

Student Single LEAP 8.00 4.32 3.68
Student Return LEAP* 9.00 7.00 2.00
Student 10 Journey (AC) / Student Weekly (BE) LEAP 42.00 31.30 10.70

Student Single Cash 10.00 5.40 4.60
Student Return Cash 11.00 8.20 2.80

* BE Ticket is valid 24 hours


See later post for Ratoath - Dublin Fares

devnull

It's too much of an increase and I can't help thinking they've made a major mistake here, I don't have an issue with an increase in itself, but the levels they have gone to are too steep to do in one go and many passengers will dessert them, Of course however, we don't have access to their finances to see what the current financial performance is.

If they are using the claim of the cost of new vehicles then it will be unacceptable if anything else other than new or almost new vehicles turned up and the old ones are not replaced. If passengers are paying such fare they have a right to expect that they have a standard of vehicle that reflects that rather than the old fleet they have at present

Other thing is that BE fares are cheaper but you have to take into account they are subsidised and also are having vehicles provided for them for free, so I reckon if they had to pay for their own vehicles and didn't have the subsidy their fares would certainly be a fair bit higher since right now they have part of their costs covered by the NTA and a free supply of vehicles which is a massive cost saving.

But at the end of the day if Asbourne Connect are going to charge a premium for their service going forward they need to start offering a premium service rather than one offered on 11 year old + second hand vehicles

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

It's too much of an increase and I can't help thinking they've made a major mistake here, I don't have an issue with an increase in itself, but the levels they have gone to are too steep to do in one go and many passengers will dessert them, Of course however, we don't have access to their finances to see what the current financial performance is.

If they are using the claim of the cost of new vehicles then it will be unacceptable if anything else other than new or almost new vehicles turned up and the old ones are not replaced. If passengers are paying such fare they have a right to expect that they have a standard of vehicle that reflects that rather than the old fleet they have at present

Other thing is that BE fares are cheaper but you have to take into account they are subsidised and also are having vehicles provided for them for free, so I reckon if they had to pay for their own vehicles and didn't have the subsidy their fares would certainly be a fair bit higher since right now they have part of their costs covered by the NTA and a free supply of vehicles which is a massive cost saving.

But at the end of the day if Asbourne Connect are going to charge a premium for their service going forward they need to start offering a premium service rather than one offered on 11 year old + second hand vehicles

The reason I offered the comparison with the BE 103 is that, having looked at it, I would be of the opinion that for many (especially students) the differential in fares may now be too great.

I'm fully aware that BE are subsidised.

devnull

LXFlyer wrote: »

The reason I offered the comparison with the 103 is that I would be of the opinion that for many the differential will now be too great.

I agree with you, the fare increase is far too much - I was simply outlining that the subisdy has to be taken into consideration when comparing the prices if we're talking about the argument about the cost of vehicles they need to pay for which they appear to be using and taking that at face value, although personally I think that is just being used as an excuse.

As stated, we'll soon see, if they continue to acquire second hand vehicles the age of their current fleet then it shows the argument was a red herring, if their excuse is they need to fund new vehicles at 300k a pop I expect them to start buying new premium vehicles not cast offs from other operators or bought at auction for a considerably lower price.

liger

devnull wrote: »

It's a pretty steep rise.

I also don't buy the argument they need to buy vehicles at 300k a pop. They don't have to be brand new.

Did they need to get that rise approved by the NTA?

devnull

liger wrote: »

Did they need to get that rise approved by the NTA?

Commercial services that are self funded such as Bus Eireann Expressway and Ashbourne Connect and other commercial operators don't require approval by the NTA in the same way that state funded services are.

liger

devnull wrote: »

Commercial services that are self funded such as Bus Eireann Expressway and Ashbourne Connect and other commercial operators don't require approval by the NTA in the same way that state funded services are.

Thanks for that. wasn't sure seeing as taxis, some buses and most utilities that have a regulator need approval to up their rates.

Arnold54321

What's the service like on the Ashbourne connect currently? Does it turn up on time, stick to the timetable or are they wildly ambitious times, can you get a seat etc etc?

From looking at the price increases they want to cater only towards adult yearly communters. I read on fb that some yearly ticket holders had been finding it hard to get a seat as there has been an upsurge in ad hoc passengers so I presume, to an extent, their trying to keep them happy.

Ad hoc adults, students and children are being encouraged to use BE however I presume the 103 service wouldn't be as good as a private operator but maybe I'm wrong?

Again according to fb the Ashbourne Connect are going to introduce more services in the coming weeks and a weekend service next year so increased services are on the way which sounds encouraging.

Henry1970

I have to say some people really have nothing better to do with themselves, I suppose it is a great country we live in where we can give every little general a gun so they can snipe from behind their keyboard about what other who actually get up off their backside actually do!

I have a few issues with what has been thrown out here.

* Although the Ashbourne Connect fleet is older they are very highly maintained. They all have climate control systems and are generally presented to a very high level. This is a local company that has started from nothing and in 3 years is now one of the larger operators in Dublin.

* They are clearly focusing on a target market, what is wrong with this? They clearly state they are bringing their fares into line with other commercial operators instead of fighting with the local subsidised operator. Looking this week every peak bus they run is stuffed, they are wrong but you keyboard warriors are correct?

*How will they fund wheelchair and environmentally friendly buses? Sell themselves to our wonderful banks and run themselves into the ground or do it they way it should be done! This country has nearly been destroyed by people living beyond their means.

*So they offer a crap service then according to one poster? They offer the opposite, an exceptional customer service experience is offered from the back office team, the drivers are always very pleasant and well presented, buses are very clean and tidy, they have free wifi on every bus and a live tracker system that very few offer and is a gift, they nearly always turn up as they should and where they should. They have clear well branded buses with smart route displays and Leap and you can top up on the bus which few if any other operators allow.

Seems to me that this is an excellent company built up from nothing and they know what they are doing. I suppose no other transport company ever made a success of demand lead pricing.........

Honestly the attitude of some begrudging people is sickening....holds this country back something rotten.

DeValera didnt want motorways for the rich to speed up and down in their flash cars, maybe this bus company should start paying their passengers to use them!

hmmm

You're being too defensive Henry, which I think is a pity. I don't know anything about AC or use this route myself, but it seems like a fair discussion in the thread above. Obviously the first poster throws around terms like "private operator" which suggests an agenda, but the follow-up posts are mostly factual and he wasn't long getting shot down. If you're involved with the company this is a good opportunity to engage on what is effectively a social media channel and explain why the price rises were necessary.

StreetLight

hmmm wrote: »

You're being too defensive Henry, which I think is a pity. I don't know anything about AC or use this route myself, but it seems like a fair discussion in the thread above. Obviously the first poster throws around terms like "private operator" which suggests an agenda, but the follow-up posts are mostly factual and he wasn't long getting shot down. If you're involved with the company this is a good opportunity to engage on what is effectively a social media channel and explain why the price rises were necessary.

WTF are you on about?

Ashbourne Connect IS a private operator. I don't see how the mention of it suggest an agenda.

I also don't see how an interesting story in the world of transportation would give you so much glee to see me 'shot down'.

If there's an agenda anywhere, you're the one causing it.

Henry1970

Im not directly involved with the company but I do use the service, know a lot about the company and Im involved in the industry in the local area.

Hmm's reply is balanced and considered I must say as are some others but there is one in particular who has a negative opinion on everything and seems to know lot about everything but really a lot about nothing.

The comparson chart while not completely accurate does show a few obvious points.

1. If you want to pay cash then you will have to pay a premium. Cash is getting evermore expensive for a business.

2. If you want to turn up ad hoc then you will have to pay for the option.

3. Students take up the same amount of space as adults.

4. If you regularly support the business then you will be looked after.

Increases for returns and weekly tickets are modest and monthly and annuals are not touched.

In reality this move will affect 10 maybe 20% of pax in a meaningful way but what about the people who are there 52 weeks and have their seats taken by someone who uses the bus 4 times a year? They don't count?

The only reason I have posted here is to defend the rubbish posted by one 'opinion' the is completely skewed.

To say a company that has built up a business from nothing based in offering a premium customer service are out to screw their customers if they dont buy millions of euros worth of buses instantly to satisfy 'their' keyboard while discounting everything else they do is quite frankly gauling!!!

devnull

Henry1970 wrote: »

To say a company that has built up a business from nothing based in offering a premium customer service are out to screw their customers if they dont buy millions of euros worth of buses instantly to satisfy 'their' keyboard while discounting everything else they do is quite frankly gauling!!!

They are the ones who have stated that they need to raise the fares in order to pay for such vehicles at the end of the day, they stated the following in their statement in relation to raising the fares

We are also forward planning for investment into more wheelchair accessible vehicles and vehicles with low emission technology. These two requirements will soon become a legal standard and we will need to make a €3 million investment to make the bus fleet compliant.

All I was simply saying was that since they claim that fares need to be raised in order to pay for these vehicles, then passengers will expect to see such an upgrade investment in the fleet in the near future in line with that claim.

Henry1970

Streetlite you have posted nothing but fact and are of course entitled to comment on what is a public matter.

Ashbourne Connect is what is called a Commercial Bus Operator (CBO). In the modern world 'private operator' is a devil expression that traditionally would be used by the public sector people to define the devils who dare run a bus company and creates the impression of dark pirates who will do anything for a quick buck!

Just like many groups in society a general name given in the past in the modern world many not just be as acceptable as it once was.

Henry1970

devnull wrote: »

They are the ones who have stated that they need to raise the fares in order to pay for such vehicles at the end of the day, they stated the following in their statement in relation to raising the fares



All I was simply saying was that since they claim that fares need to be raised in order to pay for these vehicles, then passengers will expect to see such an upgrade investment in the fleet in the near future in line with that claim.

Seems quite clear they have given multiple reasons for the increases which do not affect a large proportion of their customer base at all, in realtily small increase for a large proportion of the remaining customers and a large increase to stem the flow of business that is affecting a much bigger proportion of their existing core business.

You of course picked the bones out what suited you and inferred they are out to screw their customers.

devnull

Henry1970 wrote: »

You of course picked the bones out what suited you and inferred they are out to screw their customers.

No - I simply highlighted that if AC say that fares are going up to pay for newer wheelchair accessible vehicles then the passengers will expect to see newer wheelchair accessible vehicles compared to the age of the fleet as it exists now.

Henry1970

devnull wrote: »

No - I simply highlighted that if AC say that fares are going up to pay for newer wheelchair accessible vehicles then the passengers will expect to see newer wheelchair accessible vehicles compared to the age of the fleet as it exists now.

They have already put 2 wheelchair accessible coaches into service and more to come. It doesn't state that the fares are going up just to fund these vehicles. Read it - you are well able to offer up clever opinions with very little solutions but why not consider the whole statement??

This company have more than proven their commitment to their customers on many occasions but that doesn't suit your opinion so it doesn't really matter I suppose.

devnull

Henry1970 wrote: »

They have already put 2 wheelchair accessible coaches into service and more to come. It doesn't state that the fares are going up just to fund these vehicles. Read it - you are well able to offer up clever opinions with very little solutions but why not consider the whole statement??

They say they are going to spend approx €3m in wheelchair accessible coaches which would realistically allow them to purchase at least 9 brand new coaches at an average spec if they are going to spend what they claim they are.

Do you know what vehicles they will be getting in? Will they be buying new or nearly new as the €3m investment would suggest or will they be purchasing vehicles like the recently added 7 year old wheelchair accessible Scania Century which would be considerably cheaper?

Henry1970

devnull wrote: »

They say they are going to spend approx €3m in wheelchair accessible coaches which would realistically allow them to purchase at least 9 brand new coaches at an average spec if they are going to spend what they claim they are.

Do you know what vehicles they will be getting in? Will they be buying new or nearly new as the €3m investment would suggest or will they be purchasing vehicles like the recently added 7 year old wheelchair accessible Scania Century which would be considerably cheaper?

As I said earlier I would have a fair idea of what the lads are doing but Im not their offical representative.

The latter vehicle you mention is still a vehicle that is worth €150,000 when its painted and booted. How many fares will it take to pay for it over a life of 7/8 years?

A new coach will cost approximately €80 per day of a 14 year life. Add up driver, fuel, overheads. Most of them can only do one peak lap. 50 pax by average fare of lets say €8 = €400??

This is not a high margin business.

Post suggests to me they intend to self finance the development of the fleet and they are planning this now as Dublin will go like London where high emission vehicles will be banned and the NTA will impose a deadline on wheelchair accessibility as soon as the BE fleet is compliant.

Given how anything older than euro 5 approx 2011) is soon to be banned in London AC seem to be planning for the future and reading the tea leaves.

It will be no good for them or the customer if they and companies like them do not start to invest now for the high standards coming diwn the tracks.

J.pilkington

Fair play Henry, great posts from a users perspective rather than what seems to be general statements(very selective too) garnished from google / Facebook searches camouflaged as if they are coming from a users perspective.

Great point that some posters are cherry picking parts of ACs fare increase justification which they published. They issued a multi point justification for the increase yet some posters have decided to ignore all of the points bar one and want to hold them to account if they don’t buy a fleet of 172 coaches.

That €150k figure really puts it into perspective, it isn’t cheap to try start a business, and not nice having it knocked by anonymous users hiding behind a key board.

Would I also be right saying this operator travels via the motorway and tunnel, if so surely that’s worth its weight in gold for a regular commuter.

devnull

Henry1970 wrote: »

AThe latter vehicle you mention is still a vehicle that is worth €150,000 when its painted and booted. How many fares will it take to pay for it over a life of 7/8 years?

It must be a seriously impressive spec inside for that price? The reason I ask is I've had a look around a few dealers sites and generally you can buy coaches of the same model and age with a pretty good spec for approx €100k

A new coach will cost approximately €80 per day of a 14 year life. Add up driver, fuel, overheads. Most of them can only do one peak lap. 50 pax by average fare of lets say €8 = €400??

I'm not disputing that new coaches are expensive of course they are but pretty much all of the big privates in Ireland lease at least some of their fleet, certainly GoBus, Aircoach. JJ Kavanagh, Bernard Kavanagh etc would certainly be leasing vehicles, normally on maintenance and spares contracts.

Thing is they've stated they need to invest €3m in coaches so they'if they're spending €150k a pop like you say then they could get 20 coaches for that much but they have nowhere near enough work to need that many based on current timetables, they'd need to massively increase their timetables.

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

It must be a seriously impressive spec inside for that price? The reason I ask is I've had a look around a few dealers sites and generally you can buy coaches of the same model and age with a pretty good spec for approx €100k



I'm not disputing that new coaches are expensive of course they are but pretty much all of the big privates in Ireland lease at least some of their fleet, certainly GoBus, Aircoach. JJ Kavanagh, Bernard Kavanagh etc would certainly be leasing vehicles, normally on maintenance and spares contracts.

Thing is they've stated they need to invest €3m in coaches so they'if they're spending €150k a pop like you say then they could get 20 coaches for that much but they have nowhere near enough work to need that many based on current timetables, they'd need to massively increase their timetables.

You are way off with your €100k

Uk price = £87.5k / €105k
Add VAT = €130k

Henry mentioned painted so add another few k. Transport and preparation (leap machine/WiFi etc)and not a million miles off €150k.

And your example is not even wheelchair compliant so not even a fair comparison in the first place.

I don’t understand the relevance of other operators leasing coaches. Do you realise that leasing companies are commercial enterprises out to make a profit,as in they will charge probably 8 to 10% interest so there is no savings in leasing. And there is no way that those companies you mentioned are on an alll in maintenance plan from their leasing company, gobus maybe because they change every 18mths but definitely not the others.

You seem to be going out of your way to attack this coach operator? Do you receive a poor service from them?

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

You are way off with your €100k

Uk price = £87.5k / €105k
Add VAT = €130k

Henry mentioned painted so add another few k. Transport and preparation (leap machine/WiFi etc)and not a million miles off €150k.

And your example is not even wheelchair compliant so not even a fair comparison in the first place.

I happen to agree with you on this.

I only had a quick skim of the page as it was late and I misread the page, the vehicle indeed does not take a wheelchair and indeed the price does not include VAT as you correctly state, but it wasn't something that was deliberate, it was merely an oversight.

I don’t understand the relevance of other operators leasing coaches. Do you realise that leasing companies are commercial enterprises out to make a profit,as in they will charge probably 8 to 10% interest so there is no savings in leasing.

If there were no savings to be had by leasing then nobody would be leasing, but leasing is very common in the coach world in Ireland especially because the leasing company tend to offer an overall package because they are assets of the leasing company rather than assets of the company. There's also the fact that they require less up front costs and can offer more flexibility.

And there is no way that those companies you mentioned are on an alll in maintenance plan from their leasing company, gobus maybe because they change every 18mths but definitely not the others.

It's extremely common these days. Irish Commercials themselves have stated that Aircoach for one are on such contract, I have heard from a good source that JJ Kavanagh are and pretty much all of the Mercedes stuff tends to be on those contracts as well.

It's a win-win scenario for companies generally, since the operator knows that they will have the back-up of the manufacturer if something breaks down and don't need to worry about that side of things themselves and gives the lessor piece of mind and control to some degree over who is maintaining their assets and what kind of work is being done for them.

You seem to be going out of your way to attack this coach operator? Do you receive a poor service from them?

I have no gripe with Ashbourne Connect whatsoever, I actually feel that they have to date offered a good service for the price point that is on offer to date and would also agree that there was perhaps room for a small increase - I just don't agree with any transport providers raising standard single and return fares so much in one go.

We'll just have to wait and see how this one turns out in the future and the reason that I would expect to see the fleet substantially renewed is because needing €3m to invest in it was used as one of the justifications for the price rise in the first place, nothing more than that.

liam7831

What's the average % increase ? It seems strange to be running a promotional price for 3yrs

devnull

liam7831 wrote: »

What's the average % increase ? It seems strange to be running a promotional price for 3yrs

LXFlyer posted an excellent comprehensive comparison here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104703273&postcount=7

LXFlyer

To be fair to Ashbourne Connect - it's quite obvious that they are focussing on the daily commuters who form the bread and butter for the company.

The three monthly and annual tickets are not changing in price at all.

They're clearly quite happy to leave the ad hoc passengers to Bus Eireann, which as a commercial operator they're quite within their rights to do.

It's good to see operators like this one making a success of their operations.

LXFlyer

Henry1970 wrote: »

Im not directly involved with the company but I do use the service, know a lot about the company and Im involved in the industry in the local area.

Hmm's reply is balanced and considered I must say as are some others but there is one in particular who has a negative opinion on everything and seems to know lot about everything but really a lot about nothing.

The comparson chart while not completely accurate does show a few obvious points.

1. If you want to pay cash then you will have to pay a premium. Cash is getting evermore expensive for a business.

2. If you want to turn up ad hoc then you will have to pay for the option.

3. Students take up the same amount of space as adults.

4. If you regularly support the business then you will be looked after.

Increases for returns and weekly tickets are modest and monthly and annuals are not touched.

In reality this move will affect 10 maybe 20% of pax in a meaningful way but what about the people who are there 52 weeks and have their seats taken by someone who uses the bus 4 times a year? They don't count?

The only reason I have posted here is to defend the rubbish posted by one 'opinion' the is completely skewed.

To say a company that has built up a business from nothing based in offering a premium customer service are out to screw their customers if they dont buy millions of euros worth of buses instantly to satisfy 'their' keyboard while discounting everything else they do is quite frankly gauling!!!

For the record - what was not "completely accurate" in the fare comparisons that I presented?

If there's an error, I'll gladly correct it.

Henry1970

Lx flyer - Im open to correction but the return from AC Ratoath to Dublin on leap is a euro too much?

Some excellent points made here form some people who have thought about what they are typing and dont base their assumptions on some vague understanding of the business that they think they may have.

In terms of vehicles wether a bus is 1,7,15 years old they still have a cost. A 15 year old coach is still worth 20k so if you write it off over its remaining life it will still cost every day.

Day 1 welcome to business.

How does any business acquire assets?

Retained earnings
Asset Finance/Loans
Lease

They all have pros and cons - leasing means you get your hands on the asset straight away but you will basically pay the cost of the asset over the lease and have no equity at the end. You buy the bus for someone else who puts up the dosh and then after 5/7 years you hand it back. If you needed to keep it longer than the initial lease then you end up spending more than buying it. It will suit some business models or people who have limited options to finance but in the long run its like renting a house and not ideal.

I hope our resident expert will have his turbocharged, twin overhead cam, electronically fuel controlled keyboard ready to go and offer some praise to companies like AC who in a few years time have put their money where to mouth is.

Picking the worst from the price increase menu and then mixing that in with what suits for the justification to come up with a skewed opinion to suit a view point is no use to anyone.

Personally I think this is a business that has studied all aspects of its operations and has made a decision in the best interests of the majority of its customers, employees and the business itself.

LXFlyer

Henry1970 wrote: »

Lx flyer - Im open to correction but the return from AC Ratoath to Dublin on leap is a euro too much?

Apologies - I appear to have used the Ashbourne Connect UCD fares in the Ratoath comparison with BE.

Here's a corrected table for Ratoath - Dublin City fares:

Ash Conn BE Difference

Adult Single LEAP 9.00 5.36 3.64
Adult Return LEAP* 10.00 8.70 1.30
Adult 10 Journey (AC) / Adult Weekly (BE) LEAP 45.00 39.15 5.85

Adult Single Cash 10.00 6.70 3.30
Adult Return Cash 11.00 10.20 0.80

3 Monthly Taxsaver (BE is 3 x Monthly) 460.00 450.00 10.00
Annual Taxsaver 1,675.00 1,620.00 55.00

Student Single LEAP 8.00 4.64 3.36
Student Return LEAP* 9.00 7.00 2.00
Student 10 Journey (AC) / Student Weekly (BE) LEAP 42.00 31.30 10.70

Student Single Cash 10.00 5.80 4.20
Student Return Cash 11.00 9.00 2.00

* BE Ticket is valid 24 hours

devnull

Henry1970 wrote: »

They all have pros and cons - leasing means you get your hands on the asset straight away but you will basically pay the cost of the asset over the lease and have no equity at the end. You buy the bus for someone else who puts up the dosh and then after 5/7 years you hand it back. If you needed to keep it longer than the initial lease then you end up spending more than buying it. It will suit some business models or people who have limited options to finance but in the long run its like renting a house and not ideal.

Do you really think that companies like Irish Commercials are spreading the whole cost of an asset over a lease which could be anywhere from a few years with some companies and up to three times that with others. There are big operators who are leasing coaches from the likes of Volvo not just small ones who don't have the finance.

Most of the time the lessor will offer the lease for a set number of time and look for a set amount of lease payments to be made over the term of that lease and there will often be strict conditions over what the lessor can do with the vehicle during that time as it remains an asset of the leasing company, the leasing company will factor into their lease pricing that when it expires, they will normally sell it on to the market or (less often) lease it out again.

Personally I think this is a business that has studied all aspects of its operations and has made a decision in the best interests of the majority of its customers, employees and the business itself.

And that is your opinion and some people may agree with some of it, some people may agree with all of it and some may agree with none of it but people are going to have different views, I differ from your views in some areas because I don't like any operator increasing their walk up prices the way Ashbourne Connect are,

I understand that they have a lot of commuter passengers and this will not effect them like the walk up passengers, and for those people this is very much a good thing and I agree that AC have provided a good service to date. I just don't agree with such a walk-up fare rise to a large extent in one go and I would have the same view regardless of which operator it was.

Henry1970

Yes! They are a business and out to make money. Take a coach with a 300k price tag. Give it to a large company who will run the nuts out of it for 5-7 years. If we say a useful life is 14 years and the operator has it for 7 that is 50% of the value if you wrote it off over 14 years but given the inherent value and lower operating costs and value associated with the vehicle being new in the lower years you cannot write it off over 14 years on a straight line basis. By year 7 probably 70% of the value is gone so its worth roughly 100k. This is the lease companies/manufactures profit on the deal for providing the facility.

If the bank gave you the 300k and you buy it by year 5/7 you will have given them 450k for the loan but at least you own the bus at the end and have 7 years of use for it for secondary use etc.

Most bus companies will buy a bus and write it off over its entire life so leasing wont work for them so they buy the asset. It could be new or it could be mid life depending on its proposed use. Just because the asset is in the twlight years of its life does not mean it has no cost or that it is below standard.

Aer Lingus are running many 16/17/18 year old planes but not one complains about getting reamed out if it for €250 for a one way last minute ticket from Heathrow because the plane had '02 D' on the front of it!

Luckily we are all entitled to our opinions but next time you rock up to a train station or a National Express in the UK and notice your single is 90% the price of a return you will see this is how the transport industry is developing. Every business needs a steady flow to base their costs on and selling the right person, the right product, at the right time for the best price possible is the most basic principal any business should use as their mantra. Getting your pricing wrong is how most business people fail!

myshirt

I don't want to derail the thread here, but seeing as we have a few users of the service here can anyone guide me what you are looking at door to door on these routes to Custom House say. I see a timetable, but no route map or bus stop locations. It's very hard to follow that yougo website.

devnull

Henry1970 wrote: »

Take a coach with a 300k price tag. Give it to a large company who will run the nuts out of it for 5-7 years. If we say a useful life is 14 years and the operator has it for 7 that is 50% of the value if you wrote it off over 14 years but given the inherent value and lower operating costs and value associated with the vehicle being new in the lower years you cannot write it off over 14 years on a straight line basis. By year 7 probably 70% of the value is gone so its worth roughly 100k. This is the lease

If the bank gave you the 300k and you buy it by year 5/7 you will have given them 450k for the loan but at least you own the bus at the end and have 7 years of use for it for secondary use etc.

Most bus companies will buy a bus and write it off over its entire life so leasing wont work for them so they buy the asset. It could be new or it could be mid life depending on its proposed use. Just because the asset is in the twlight years of its life does not mean it has no cost or that it is below standard.

But if what you said was true no big company would be leasing vehicles, Aircoach wouldn't be leasing them, GoBus wouldn't be leasing them and neither would many of the other bigger privates in Ireland who routinely lease vehicles because there would be no benefit of doing so if they were going to pay more because some of these companies would have the finances to buy them outright if they really wanted to.

Aer Lingus are running many 16/17/18 year old planes but not one complains about getting reamed out if it for €250 for a one way last minute ticket from Heathrow because the plane had '02 D' on the front of it!

But Aer Lingus are not saying they are increasing their prices in part to pay for a fleet of younger planes are they? So not really relevant to this discussion at the end of the day because it's comparing apples and oranges.

Luckily we are all entitled to our opinions but next time you rock up to a train station or a National Express in the UK and notice your single is 90% the price of a return you will see this is how the transport industry is developing.

There will always be savings for booking returns over two singles and as you say this is very common and something I support. Do I think that a single should be 90% of the cost of a return? Not at all. There should be a saving for buying a return but by having the single price too high compared to a return you might attract some more passengers to take a return but if you need to take a one off journey then you'd be inclined to look elsewhere in my view.

devnull

Just a reminder to all posters.

Civility is not just a desirable trait here, it is a pre-requisite to you being allowed to post. You can have differences of opinions, but differences do not mean free reign to denigrate or make crass generalisations.

Let's make this place where alternative viewpoints aren't vilified, but challenged with well constructed, respectful counterpoints. If you can't manage that, then I would suggest you refrain from posting.

Please read the charter and do not reply to this post.

- Moderator

Henry1970

devnull wrote: »

But if what you said was true no big company would be leasing vehicles, Aircoach wouldn't be leasing them, GoBus wouldn't be leasing them and neither would many of the other bigger privates in Ireland who routinely lease vehicles because there would be no benefit of doing so if they were going to pay more because some of these companies would have the finances to buy them outright if they really wanted to.



But Aer Lingus are not saying they are increasing their prices in part to pay for a fleet of younger planes are they? So not really relevant to this discussion at the end of the day because it's comparing apples and oranges.



There will always be savings for booking returns over two singles and as you say this is very common and something I support. Do I think that a single should be 90% of the cost of a return? Not at all. There should be a saving for buying a return but by having the single price too high compared to a return you might attract some more passengers to take a return but if you need to take a one off journey then you'd be inclined to look elsewhere in my view.

The one thing I can clearly see here is that you are not an expert on this subject yet your voicing your opinion like you are! GoBE is operated by Bernard Kavanagh group who buy large amounts of coaches from the likes of Volvo and operate a cascade policy like many others. They are new tour tours (for a tax reason) then in year 2/3 they go to the likes of GoBE or Eurolines until about year 7 when they end up being used on work like Matthews or Bus Eireann local hires or the 817 they operate for the NTA. The eventually end up being sold or in a hedge somewhere as a schoolbus. They dont lease!!!!

Aircoach have a different business model. It suits them to lease and as they have no secondary operations then dispose of them. For them leasing works and is probably just as cheap as buying when you count loan costs. Their parent company lives for today and wants to suck as much out of them as they can get their hands on right now so using retaining capital in the business is of no interest to their share holders.

Aer Lingus are charging what they can get away with but the point is they have lots of shiny new expensive planes too that cost lots of money and the cost is spread across the entire business. The 02 does the same work as the 171 and they all have to be paid for.

There is a point you are completely missing here - transport companies in general are charging what they can get away with charging. Someone who turns up to buy a single ticket with cash is not a regular customer so why not charge them what you can get away with? They are an expensive customer to carry so why should they get the same value the loyal customer that stumps up for 52 weeks of the year gets?

If the operator knows the day before that they expect x amount of passengers to turn up they can put out y amount of capacity and be efficient and profitable. If 30 football supporters turn up and crowd the bus they are disrupting the companies operations and the regulars so why not charge them? All that happens here is an extra bus is needed for 10-15 extra pax that kills the profit of the first bus for the company.

I think you are confusing a commercial company that has to make a profit to survive with a registered charity.

devnull

Henry1970 wrote: »

GoBE is operated by Bernard Kavanagh group who buy large amounts of coaches from the likes of Volvo and operate a cascade policy like many others.

You will note that I didn't mention GoBe, I mentioned GoBus and GoBus are using brand new coaches every year on their Galway route which are regularly then ending up at other operators all around Ireland and they are certainly being leased as they have a very short shelf life with this company of only managing 2-3 years and then being replaced by new coaches.

GoBus' Cork route (GoBe) is no longer fully contracted out to Bernard Kavanagh and GoBus are operating some of those services in house with brand new vehicles, I'm perfectly aware that Bernard Kavanagh do not lease all their vehicles and would be buying a fair number as well.

Aircoach have a different business model. It suits them to lease and as they have no secondary operations then dispose of them.For them leasing works and is probably just as cheap as buying when you count loan costs. Their parent company lives for today and wants to suck as much out of them as they can get their hands on right now so using retaining capital in the business is of no interest to their share holders.

They have been transferring vehicles between both UK and Ireland operations quite a few times in the past, the UK arm of First has helped out with some vehicles on a few occasions when Aircoach has needed them and Aircoach has done the same, even a few weeks ago a couple of coaches from Aircoach were sent over to Glasgow

You'll find Callinans/Citylink also have been doing the same kind of thing with their fleet, it's quite common to see vehicles go backwards and forwards between their UK arm and the Irish arm, I've been on vehicles that were initially operating in Ireland in the UK on Stansted Citylink and I've also seen vehicles new to the UK operating for Irish Citylink here.

The 02 does the same work as the 171 and they all have to be paid for.

Ashbourne Connect have stated they will spend €3m on coaches to upgrade the fleet and openly stated it costs €300k to buy buses if someone claims they need extra monies (higher fares) in order to fund something, people who pay those higher fares will expect a company to deliver that claim.

There is a point you are completely missing here - transport companies in general are charging what they can get away with charging. Someone who turns up to buy a single ticket with cash is not a regular customer so why not charge them what you can get away with?

Because I am a customer and I am not involved with the industry and I look at this from a customers point of view rather than merely from the point of view of seeing how much that a company can get away with something.

They are an expensive customer to carry so why should they get the same value the loyal customer that stumps up for 52 weeks of the year gets?

They shouldn't get the same value but they also should not have to pay the kind of premium they will pay under the new regime in my opinion, all it will do is discourage those who may want to take a one off journey because their other plans fell through and they'll look elsewhere to an operator that will offer them a lower price single journey, in this case Bus Eireann (if they sort out their reliablity!)

This would be a great shame because if the service is good, and from what I have heard until now it has been with a lower price it might make one off customers think "that's a great service." and then they will become regulars, but by discouraging one off trips you're essentially turning away possible new repeat business.

Henry1970

Yes you are correct you did mention GoBus. This link may be of use to you!

https://www.donedeal.ie/coaches-for-sale/volvo-9700-high-spec/16783778

Either they own them or something fishy is going on.

I have just read what AC have stated and they have said it will cost 3m to replace the fleet, nothing said about doing that instantly and it clearly says they intend to use the funds to invest in the fleet. Im sure that they will.

I think you are confusing your perception with fact and creating your opinions on your perceptions rather than actual fact - you are quite entitled to do that! Doesn't mean you are right.

All I set out to do here was call you on the comic book guy review of a decent local company out there with their backsides on the line.

With commentators like your good self people who get up and go out and try must feel like crying

Ill look forward to seeing you compliment them when they achieve a low emmission and accessible fleet!

devnull

Henry1970 wrote: »

Yes you are correct you did mention GoBus. This link may be of use to you!

I was told that they were leasing them, maybe they are leasing some and own others, I don't know but I was told that by someone who would be very clued up in the filed but of course it could be wrong.

I have just read what AC have stated and they have said it will cost 3m to replace the fleet, nothing said about doing that instantly and it clearly says they intend to use the funds to invest in the fleet.

Indeed they have said that and they've also said that vehicles cost €300,000 a pop so I look forward to seeing these vehicles hit the road in the short term future even if it's not straight away as it will undoubtedly upgraded the level of service.

All I set out to do here was call you on the comic book guy review of a decent local company out there with their backsides on the line. With commentators like your good self people who get up and go out and try must feel like crying.

As I said in the past people will have different opinions on different things all of the time, they are just that, opinions. You will have yours and I will have mine, both of us have a right to express them at the end of the day, I don't agree with you on a number of things but I respect you have a different opinion to myself and at the end of the day you will never get everyone having the same view of everything and any company that operates is not going to please everyone all of the time, I know that.

I look forward to seeing you compliment them when they achieve a low emmission and accessible fleet!

And I certainly will do that if I see that they are investing in a very modern fleet in line with the sums overall and per vehicle how they have publicly indicated.

J.pilkington

This website is throwing up errors when trying post. I’m not going to retype all my post, but devnall you seem to have a weird fascination with leasing. You are over glamourising it and you seem to think companies who lease are better than other companies who don’t. Leasing and loan companies both charge interest and qualifying requirements are similar! It all depends on the business model.

I’m sure a connect could rock in and lease flash coaches but they are a new company and it looks like they are trying to grow at a realistic pace and build a sustainable foundation for longevity so to be slagging them off because they are not loading themselves with debt seems harsh. Not all companies have large Asian holding companies to bail them out.

By the way at the fact you think irish commercials lease coaches is hilarious to me and tells me a lot about your knowledge. Irish commercials facilitate the lease, a finance company in the background provide the finance and carry the lease on their books. Exact same as airside vw don’t lease / pcp cars.

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

This website is throwing up errors when trying post. I’m not going to retype all my post, but devnall you seem to have a weird fascination with leasing. You are over glamourising it and you seem to think companies who lease are better than other companies who don’t.

I never said that companies who are leasing are better than those which purchase I simply said that there are large operators that certainly lease so it's wrong to suggest it's only small companies who can't afford expensive fleet investments who lease.

I’m sure a connect could rock in and lease flash coaches but they are a new company and it looks like they are trying to grow at a realistic pace and build a sustainable foundation for longevity so to be slagging them off because they are not loading themselves with debt seems harsh.

I've never slagged them off because they are not loading themselves with debt, I'm simply saying that I would like to see them substantially invest in their fleet in line with what they have publicly stated as this is one of the justifications for increasing the fares. If they do this nobody will be more delighted than me because I think they happen to run a good service right now even if I don't agree with the new pricing structure from November fully.

By the way at the fact you think irish commercials lease coaches is hilarious to me and tells me a lot about your knowledge. Irish commercials facilitate the lease, a finance company in the background provide the finance and carry the lease on their books.

Of course there are often finance companies involved, but generally if you want to lease a fleet of custom built coaches you will go through the manufacturer and state the requirements and they will price up how much it will cost and then the lease may either be carried out in-house or as you say, is more common, through a finance company but they are very much in the background and at the end of the lease the assets then become property of the manufacturer who will either re-lease or sell them off.

J.pilkington

Stop moving the goal posts everytime you ae proven to be talking mistruths(seriously must be at least 5 times on this thread). You are trying to waffle your way out of it.

Here is what you said
“Do you really think that companies like Irish Commercials are spreading the whole cost of an asset over a lease which could be anywhere from a few years with some companies and up to three times that with others. T“

It shows you don’t have the deep knowledge of the industry that you are trying to portray. I really hope no posters take these posts seriously

I think I’m going to exit here before the enevatable happens, I’m wasting my time. you will see I’ve raised another thread on this car crash of a thread.

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

Here is what you said
“Do you really think that companies like Irish Commercials are spreading the whole cost of an asset over a lease which could be anywhere from a few years with some companies and up to three times that with others."

My point was that there is no way that a manufacturer or dealer are going to spread the full cost of vehicles over short leases because the leasing cost would be astronomical for the company who is leasing and any leasing company would work into their calculations for leasing charges how much they could get for the vehicle at the end of the lease so the lease income + sale income allows for a profit that is acceptable to them after costs are deducted.

What I was also saying is that if an operator with considerable resources entered a lease and it had to pay the full cost of the vehicle to buy new over the lease period and have to hand it back at the end, then there is absolutely no benefit to leasing vehicles unless you are very hard up for cash, as you'd end up paying the same sum as purchasing it outright, over the lease and have to return it at the end of the lease despite paying for it in full.

I agree with you that finance companies are often involved, but at the end of the day the manufacturer builds the coaches and arranges a lease, perhaps through a finance company and at the end of the lease the coaches normally return to the manufacturer who then either tries to lease them out again or more often than not sell them on the market.

monument

gaxiya wrote: »

Why was Henry banned and slander of Ashbourne Connect allowed to stay.

STOP DEVNULL

This kind of thing isn't impressing anybody and is just a massive waste of everybody's time.

-- moderator

dudara

@DamoInDublin - please contact hello@boards.ie to verify your identity and obtain a verified representative account

dudara

Cilar

LXFlyer wrote: »

Here's an analysis of the fare changes - fairly steep all right.

The monthly taxsaver is gone, only three monthly and annual tickets are now available, but they have stayed at the same prices.

I suspect that they certainly will lose much of the ad hoc customers. They are definitely focussing on regular commuters here.

Revised Ashbourne Connect Fares To Dublin City
Current New % Change

Adult Single LEAP 5.00 9.00 80%
Adult Return LEAP 8.00 10.00 25%
Adult 10 Journey LEAP 37.50 45.00 20%

Adult Single Cash 6.00 10.00 67%
Adult Return Cash 8.50 11.00 29%

Child / Student Single LEAP 4.00 8.00 100%
Child / Student Return LEAP 6.00 9.00 50%
Child / Student 10 Journey LEAP 30.00 42.00 40%

Child / Student Single Cash 6.00 10.00 67%
Child / Student Return Cash 8.50 11.00 29%


Revised Ashbourne Connect Fares To Ballsbridge / UCD
Current New % Change

Adult Single LEAP 5.00 10.00 100%
Adult Return LEAP 8.00 11.00 38%
Adult 10 Journey LEAP 37.50 45.00 20%

Adult Single Cash 6.00 11.00 83%
Adult Return Cash 8.50 12.00 41%


Child / Student Single LEAP 4.00 9.00 125%
Child / Student Return LEAP 6.00 10.00 67%
Child / Student 10 Journey LEAP 30.00 42.00 40%

Child / Student Single Cash 6.00 11.00 83%
Child / Student Return Cash 8.50 12.00 41%




Comparison with BE 103 Ashbourne to Dublin
Ash Conn BE Difference

Adult Single LEAP 9.00 4.96 4.04
Adult Return LEAP* 10.00 8.70 1.30
Adult 10 Journey (AC) / Adult Weekly (BE) LEAP 45.00 39.15 5.85

Adult Single Cash 10.00 6.20 3.80
Adult Return Cash 11.00 9.20 1.80

3 Monthly Taxsaver (BE is 3 x Monthly) 460.00 450.00 10.00
Annual Taxsaver 1,675.00 1,620.00 55.00

Student Single LEAP 8.00 4.32 3.68
Student Return LEAP* 9.00 7.00 2.00
Student 10 Journey (AC) / Student Weekly (BE) LEAP 42.00 31.30 10.70

Student Single Cash 10.00 5.40 4.60
Student Return Cash 11.00 8.20 2.80

* BE Ticket is valid 24 hours


See later post for Ratoath - Dublin Fares

Difference with Ashbourne Connect is actually bigger now. The fares actually just dropped from the 1st of Dec with BE. From 4.96 single leap to 4.20 single leap for instance.