crossing livestock on a regional road

mattthetrasher

hi folks i have priced a cattle underpass to cross the cows 60,0000 euro so i wrote to santa and three years later still no underpass help is getting scarcer can i close the road with gates with a stop sign and reflector tape on the bars and then go in to passsage to shove the cows on

Floki

mattthetrasher wrote: »

hi folks i have priced a cattle underpass to cross the cows 60,0000 euro so i wrote to santa and three years later still no underpass help is getting scarcer can i close the road with gates with a stop sign and reflector tape on the bars and then go in to passsage to shove the cows on

Ask the local council engineer but in my own opinion I very much doubt it.

Edit: actually the way this country works.
Talk to your councillor or Td first.

Buford T. Justice XIX

mattthetrasher wrote: »

hi folks i have priced a cattle underpass to cross the cows 60,0000 euro so i wrote to santa and three years later still no underpass help is getting scarcer can i close the road with gates with a stop sign and reflector tape on the bars and then go in to passsage to shove the cows on

There's talk of underpasses being included in TAMS in the near future so I would be inclined to wait for some news on that front.

I stand to be corrected but I don't think it is allowed to open gates across any road even with reflectors and stop signs on it. I imagine you would be liable for any damage caused to cars damaged by hitting the gate or swerving to avoid it.

mattthetrasher

If an underpass becomes eligible under tams will it have any cost advantage by the time all the extra t andcs are met and of course the builders will hike their bill too

lakill Farm

Floki wrote: »

Ask the local council engineer but in my own opinion I very much doubt it.

Edit: actually the way this country works.
Talk to your councillor or Td first.

Back to looking for permission instead of forgiveness.

I suggest 2 large holding pens both side of road in your own land. Have cattle ready to move

Then open your 4 gates over. A set of temp traffic lights would be the job and a few signs.

And put up a sign that says "thank you motorist for taking 2 minutes to allow me cross the animals safely".

mattthetrasher

Thanks lakill, I like the way your thinking and a bit of manners as they say will get you a long way(30 feet across the road would do)

Muckit

I wouldn't go putting anything stationary on the road (gates or cones etc). I would think it would be totally illegal to do so and if somebody crashed into them I'd be pretty sure you wouldnt be covered with your farm insurance!!

Two insured vehicles with strobes/flashers/signage parked perhaps 50m from each side would perhaps be a practical suggestion.

But long-term, best to be proactive and organise a meeting with local engineer from council. You need to get a name and be persistent in emailing and ringing them until it happens. As floki has said u may have to approach your local councillor first as they are present at a lot of meetings with these council members and could put a word in for you (stupid but this is how Ireland works!)

When u eventually get a meeti g on the ground, show them how dangerous the road is and the predicament you are in with trying to get your cows across safely and see what they suggest.

mattthetrasher

Two gates are already opposite, my thoughts was to replace both of those to two double fifteen foots and instead of them opening in, open them out and meet on the white line. From our point of veiw it can't be more dangerous than a car running into us or the cows. Even if its only a short term measure

jimini0

I help a friend here now and then to cross his cattle a national road n59. He always gets someone to help both wearing hi vis vests or jackets. He has a holding pen either side of the road. I park one side of crossing he parks the other side with hazards on . He pulls 2 lengths of electric fence tape across the road. Open gates and move cows across. All done in 2 mins or less.
I know you mention that help in scarce but it's important to have 2 people for safety reasons. 4 eyes are better than 2.

mf240

We have to cross the road here too. For some of the grazing.

We only graze them across the road during the day so at least your only crossing twice and not very early or late.

I find if you strip graze the fields across the road then the cows will move a bit faster as they know there getting fresh grass.

I haven't done it but if you rang your farm insurance company would they advise on best pratice/what's covered ect.

mattthetrasher

We have two on the road at the moment and one driving them out. And he's going to be 88 in two weeks. So he says he might take things easier next year

charolais0153

mattthetrasher wrote: »

We have two on the road at the moment and one driving them out. And he's going to be 88 in two weeks. So he says he might take things easier next year

Maybe get a dog

Muckit

mattthetrasher wrote: »

We have two on the road at the moment and one driving them out. And he's going to be 88 in two weeks. So he says he might take things easier next year

And your only thinking of this now?!

65 is pension age.... there's even talks at present of increasing to 70 in a few years....... but 88?

Firefighting now with 2 gates ain't going to cut it if u want to hold onto your farm and carry on milking

mattthetrasher

Muckit wrote: »

And your only thinking of this now?!

65 is pension age.... there's even talks at present of increasing to 70 in a few years....... but 88?

Firefighting now with 2 gates ain't going to cut it if u want to hold onto your farm and carry on milking

And what would you suggest

mattthetrasher

We cross the road for ten days in april then close it for silage then graze again for the first ten days in September and then one last round Oct

Muckit

mattthetrasher wrote: »

And what



would you suggest

I gave my suggestions in my first post.

I'm not being smart but you will find yourself in deep waters if your farm Insurance does not cover your activities. A personal injury claim could potentially put you out of business. An underpass would seem like pocket money then and a no brainer..

At present you are fully covered because you are in charge of your animals while on the road and controlling/alerting traffic either side. But anything outside of having a person each side flagging down traffic l would think is dodgeville territory. It would be well worth your while ringing your insurance company and going over this with them.

lakill Farm

mattthetrasher wrote: »

We cross the road for ten days in april then close it for silage then graze again for the first ten days in September and then one last round Oct

I see a large farmer near Longford moving 150 plus cows over and back a national road 4 times a day on his own.

Road is wide as foot path both sides.

30ft road. 2 chains. 4 x 15ft or maybe 2x15ft and 2x16fts.

Put up lights and warning signs. Only put the signs up the week your moving them and out times on them. Motorists will understand. And bet after time an odd parent and child will be standing at the gate look g at the cows. We did it as kids at the train level crossing.

larthehar

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Agriculture_and_Forestry/Safe_Handling_of_Cattle_on_Farms.pdf
Go to page 26.. all details there.

rangler1

mattthetrasher wrote: »

We cross the road for ten days in april then close it for silage then graze again for the first ten days in September and then one last round Oct

Doesn't really matter even if it's only one day in the year, you still have time to wreck someones life,
We used to always drive cattle on the road in the seventies but things have moved on, best test is would you put your children walking to school on the raods that you're causing a hazard on......as far as I can see no children walk to school on country roads.
A s someone else said here a sign stuck up all the time is a joke, whatever warning you use, only useit while the hazard is going on

mattthetrasher

rangler1 wrote: »

Doesn't really matter even if it's only one day in the year, you still have time to wreck someones life,
We used to always drive cattle on the road in the seventies but things have moved on, best test is would you put your children walking to school on the raods that you're causing a hazard on......as far as I can see no children walk to school on country roads.
A s someone else said here a sign stuck up all the time is a joke, whatever warning you use, only useit while the hazard is going on

We literally cross the road its not our fault the road goes through our farm the road is an 80km speed limit which no takes notice of either its a bit harsh throwing the blame on us rangler

rangler1

mattthetrasher wrote: »

We literally cross the road its not our fault the road goes through our farm the road is an 80km speed limit which no takes notice of either its a bit harsh throwing the blame on us rangler

Just for a test I reiterated what everyone else was saying and you jump at me,
surprise surprise, it was highly suspiscious so quick after the last thread and you've just confirmed what I thought.
It's not as if I'm the only one showing concern for the safety of motorists on this thread,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056427721

mattthetrasher

Rangler did you put in an underpass

lakill Farm

Gurteen college in the nenagh /birr college seem to cross cows still and that's a busy road.

mattthetrasher

When did the ban on livestock crossing a road come into place whats next slow tractors farmers walking on or in veiw of a public road. Where will it all end

Floki

mattthetrasher wrote: »

When did the ban on livestock crossing a road come into place whats next slow tractors farmers walking on or in veiw of a public road. Where will it all end

Cyclists are next.
Banning cyclists on the road is next.

Power, influence and superiority (or perceived superiority, it's a lovely irish trait) that's what influences decisions in this country.

Cyclists won't be banned by the way.
Dangerous drivers will.

solerina

mattthetrasher wrote: »

When did the ban on livestock crossing a road come into place whats next slow tractors farmers walking on or in veiw of a public road. Where will it all end

Matt
Seeing as you must cross the road maybe you know the legality of it, my neighbour walks cows to the parlour along a regional road, they travel approx 04-0.5km each way, twice a day..he owns all the land on both sides of the road but hasn't built a walkway so he brings them along the road, he waits behind them. Neighbours get held up for 5-10 mins each time, there is no alternative road, Is this legal ?? Thanks.

arctictree

mattthetrasher wrote: »

hi folks i have priced a cattle underpass to cross the cows 60,0000 euro so i wrote to santa and three years later still no underpass help is getting scarcer can i close the road with gates with a stop sign and reflector tape on the bars and then go in to passsage to shove the cows on

Whats with the inflation on this? I seem to remember these being costed at about 30K 4 or 5 years ago on the IFJ?

mattthetrasher

solerina wrote: »

Matt
Seeing as you must cross the road maybe you know the legality of it, my neighbour walks cows to the parlour along a regional road, they travel approx 04-0.5km each way, twice a day..he owns all the land on both sides of the road but hasn't built a walkway so he brings them along the road, he waits behind them. Neighbours get held up for 5-10 mins each time, there is no alternative road, Is this legal ?? Thanks.

yes its legal a guard a fireman and a person in charge of animals on the road have the right to stop traffic

mattthetrasher

arctictree wrote: »

Whats with the inflation on this? I seem to remember these being costed at about 30K 4 or 5 years ago on the IFJ?

I don't know, maybe under a more minor road our underpass quote was under both hedges so 14 meters with headwalls and wingwalls and a sump the spec of these are probably higher now than 5 years ago also.

einn32

If you had a lot of advanced warning before where the gates will be across the road and straight sections of road either side. You would need a few signs going way back the road on either side. And a warning system which only activates when the gates are closed. I know a local guy who closes a road when he crosses the cows but it's a quiet back road.

larthehar

There are two situations that may arise; moving cattle along a road to another field or crossing
the road. The risks depend on the experience of the stockman and any helper, the experience of
the cattle in knowing the route, the road layout, the amount and speed of traffic and the time
of day.
There is always a legal duty to warn motorists of the impending risk of cattle on the road. This can
be done by signs, with or without hazard beacons or by persons standing well back with a flag to
wave the motorists down. If the road is a busy high-speed highway then all cattle movements
must be well planned and controlled with sufficient people available to help. In this instance
warning signs must be placed about 150m back from the crossing or entry/exit point.

rangler1

larthehar wrote: »

There are two situations that may arise; moving cattle along a road to another field or crossing
the road. The risks depend on the experience of the stockman and any helper, the experience of
the cattle in knowing the route, the road layout, the amount and speed of traffic and the time
of day.
There is always a legal duty to warn motorists of the impending risk of cattle on the road. This can
be done by signs, with or without hazard beacons or by persons standing well back with a flag to
wave the motorists down. If the road is a busy high-speed highway then all cattle movements
must be well planned and controlled with sufficient people available to help. In this instance
warning signs must be placed about 150m back from the crossing or entry/exit point.

Where did you get tha, it's only common sense I know, but some need it written down

Floki

larthehar wrote: »

There are two situations that may arise; moving cattle along a road to another field or crossing
the road. The risks depend on the experience of the stockman and any helper, the experience of
the cattle in knowing the route, the road layout, the amount and speed of traffic and the time
of day.
There is always a legal duty to warn motorists of the impending risk of cattle on the road. This can
be done by signs, with or without hazard beacons or by persons standing well back with a flag to
wave the motorists down. If the road is a busy high-speed highway then all cattle movements
must be well planned and controlled with sufficient people available to help. In this instance
warning signs must be placed about 150m back from the crossing or entry/exit point.

Don't forget those council signs with that cow on it means that it is a council registered right of crossing.
Those little signs you get in the farm shop. Not so much.

mattthetrasher

We already have a lot of signage including the council sign i do like lakills idea of thanking and timing and i am wondering how long do you have your underpass in rangler

charolais0153

mattthetrasher wrote: »

We already have a lot of signage including the council sign i do like lakills idea of thanking and timing and i am wondering how long do you have your underpass in rangler

Theres a big dufference between underpass on reguonal road and the m6. lol

larthehar

rangler1 wrote: »

Where did you get tha, it's only common sense I know, but some need it written down

The link i posted on the previous page.. it is from the H&S authority's website.. page 26.. has all the detail.. nobody seems to have read it hence i posted the relevant extract.

rangler1

larthehar wrote: »

The link i posted on the previous page.. it is from the H&S authority's website.. page 26.. has all the detail.. nobody seems to have read it hence i posted the relevant extract.

Proper warning 150mtrs back is the point I'm trying to highlight, not just a sign that doesn't apply to most of the year.
It should be possible to switch warning lights on remotely,

Floki

rangler1 wrote: »

Proper warning 150mtrs back is the point I'm trying to highlight, not just a sign that doesn't apply to most of the year.
It should be possible to switch warning lights on remotely,

Any signs on roads are to be maintained by the council. If the council says no to lights. Then it's no lights.

I can't get how people are talking about gates without approval. Only looking for trouble.

You might be supposed to own to the middle of the road but you don't really.

You have to go through the proper channels before you stick anything up on a roadside ditch.

mattthetrasher

Spoke to my insurance company this morning they are ok with the gates closing the road as long as they can see that adequate warning and signage they are happy

rangler1

mattthetrasher wrote: »

Spoke to my insurance company this morning they are ok with the gates closing the road as long as they can see that adequate warning and signage they are happy

That's my point..adequate warning

Spinning my posts to underpasses is only trolling

rangler1

Floki wrote: »

Any signs on roads are to be maintained by the council. If the council says no to lights. Then it's no lights.

I can't get how people are talking about gates without approval. Only looking for trouble.

You might be supposed to own to the middle of the road but you don't really.

You have to go through the proper channels before you stick anything up on a roadside ditch.

Well tell them their signs are a worse than useless typical jobsworth Public Service job

mattthetrasher

rangler1 wrote: »

That's my point..adequate warning

Spinning my posts to underpasses is only trolling

You mentioned in a previous post that ye used to be moving animals on the road back in the 70s but moved on so i just presumed if you were not crossing animals on the road you had an underpass, its a fair assumption to makei think.

K.G.

Could you stick up a couple of strips of plastic tape like they have over esb wires underground.good visibility and if a car does go through it wont damage car.tbh for ten days spring and autumn i think ye are making a mountain of the whole issue

George Sunsnow

I know of a case where from March to October a farmer is crossing the road sometimes in 3 different places twice in a day
They hold them as Lakill suggests and are crossing with a good straight stretch of visibility,letting them all out together
If there's a large pile of cars they sometimes stop and let them on

On one of the minor roads they close one side across by swinging the gates out
All very busy roads
No signage at all and no one bats an eyelid at this
2 people in charge

lakill Farm

everyone forgets that anyone in control of a motor vehicle has to drive to suit road conditions

So that means being able to stop the vehicle in a safe manner


Worth reading up about the traffic management for road works. for roadworks there are certain distances you need to set up warning signs and you must have a Start and End sign.

Muckit

Floki wrote: »

You might be supposed to own to the middle of the road but you don't really.

Another one l came on lately.... nobody owns any land at all. It is all owned by the state.

Even with freehold, you only own the right to occupy the land.

Floki

Muckit wrote: »

Another one l came on lately.... nobody owns any land at all. It is all owned by the state.

Even with freehold, you only own the right to occupy the land.

What about all those secret tunnels I dug?
Who owns them?

rangler1

Muckit wrote: »

Another one l came on lately.... nobody owns any land at all. It is all owned by the state.

Even with freehold, you only own the right to occupy the land.

You learn that when your land is CPO'd, there's thousands of tonns of my rock under the M6, .........apparently you only own the right to the top six inches

lakill Farm

rangler1 wrote: »

You learn that when your land is CPO'd, there's thousands of tonns of my rock under the M6, .........apparently you only own the right to the top six inches

Bet you got paid nicely for the first 6 inches though


Closes door now that arguement has been ignited lol

Markcheese

Sight lines are a big deal too, know of quiet lanes where the cow crossing point is on blind bend... Saw a couple of near misses,
And no point having warning signs and lights 150 meters back on a small quiet road.. Depends on the road type, if your going to use a gate / tape or something make it brightly coloured and preferably have flashing led lights on it, even cheap bike lights are better than nothing (but a central switch to make it as little hassle as possible'd be better)

cabledude

Had my car written off recently by a farmer moving sheep across a major road. They had no signs to alert motorists, no flagmen and no warning lights as some on this Thread have suggested. They moved around 30 sheep across a very busy and fast part of the N25. Farmer himself was infront and the daughter and wife were bringing up the rear. There was a straggler that they missed and this one ran out of a lane into my path. I didn't have a chance of avoiding the animal. Car suffered substantial damage - will be a Cat B write off.

Farmer admitted liability in front of the Gardaí. He offered to bring the car to a mate and get it fixed. I was reluctent to do this because of the extent of the damage. I felt it was a write off and I was right.

This could get messy now as he is not cooperating with me in giving me insurance details. Beginning to think that maybe he doesn't have insurance.

Does he have a defence here?

Reading the thread, it appears that the farmer must take appropriate precautions to protect the public. This does not seem to have happened here.