Homework - Junior Infants and 2nd Class

timmythesheep

Hi,

My kids are in junior infants and 2nd class and they both get homework. I really have an issue with kids this age getting homework - they should be active after school, running around, getting fresh air etc. Not sitting doing more of the same.

Assuming that a child progresses well, and does not slip behind their peers, does anyone know if you can opt out or refuse for your kids to do homework even if the school has a 'homework policy'? Can a school insist and are there any sanctions if you still refuse for your child to do homework - exclusion etc?

Cheers,
TTS

LirW

Homework at this early age has the reason of repeating what was studied in school. At this young age it is critical repeating over and over again because it's the foundation of learning how to read, calculate, write and spell. The kids in that age aren't loaded with hours of homework honestly. Mine is in 1st class and he spends 20 minutes doing his homework which I think is just right. Is the homework they are getting over the top?

Ultimately you chose to send your kids to a particular school and by signing the forms you agreed with their policy. If you aren't happy with it, bring it up but don't expect to be catered to, since this can cause a chain reaction of more kids/parents wanting the same. In that case it leaves you with either changing school or homeschooling them if that's a critical issue for you.

Moonbeam

My JI kid has no hw yet.My 1st class kid gets about 10 minutes,my 3rd class one is getting over an hour every night.
It is a nightmare!

Bells21

Our school has really looked at homework-its benefits and issues that may arise. We will be including an aspect of 'active' work for home during this year. Also we have advised parents on what is a reasonable amount of time to be spent on homework each night and if a child is constantly going over this time that any work remaining after the agreed upon time scale should be left. The senior end of the school have introduced a different approach to homework, they will assign work on a Monday and it will be handed in at the end of the week. This is to prepare 6th class especially for secondary school but also allows flexibility for kids who may be at training etc on different days during the week.
In infants I think it's important for parents to be aware of what their kids are learning in school and it's also important for kids to be able to use these new skills in the real world. This means that for example when they are learning about money their homework might be to go to the shop with their parents and use coins etc to purchase something or if they're learning a new sound that they can find objects in the home that contain that sound or if they are learning about autumn that they go out with their parents and look for the signs of autumn.
They will receive a small amount of written work etc later in the year but I think that it's important for parents to see how they are getting on with basic skills such as letter formation too so that if their child is having an issue it doesn't come as a complete shock.

moonsun

I agree with the original poster -- homework should be for older kids only. Kids should be outside playing, not stuck indoors stressing over homework. Childhood is so short. I regret so much not taking a stand against it when my child was younger. I trusted the teachers and the school, and I didn't need to know about every sum and letter he was learning.

Yes, I like the idea of getting the child to notice the autumn leaves, etc, but NOT worksheets or anything like that. The homework maybe should be for the parents to read them a book at night time, which I'm sure most parents do anyway. Surely that's enough? Why hothouse children? What's the rush?

I think homework for tiny kids is a throwback to when a lot of children left school at 12. They HAD to learn how to read and write during their few years in school, so homework made sense, sortof. Now it doesn't, because the poor sods are stuck in school, generally speaking until 17 or so.

There's an excellent (and sobering) report carried out by the Dept of Psychology in UCD and Headstrong into the mental health of people aged between 12 and 25. It tracks their ups and downs, how they feel about life, death and the universe, and then corelates all the info. The stress and anxiety levels as reported by the participants are absolutely shocking. FRom 12 years of age, the levels just go up and up, and self-esteem, confidence, etc, go down and down. School was voted the most stressful factor in a schoolchild's life. What's that saying? What are we doing to them all?

LirW

I mean the work secondary schools give their students is too much (the local one expects kids in the first year to study 2 hours a day and from the following year on at least 3-4).
But when they are young and the whole foundation is laid for reading, writing and maths it is crucial to practice with them. A lot. And there are plenty of kids that are slower or need to be more careful to understand and figure out how it works. A single teacher teaching 20 of them at the same time can't cater all of them and this is why they need homework when they are young. So the parents can work with them on issues that might arise and it prevents the child of falling back behind classmates and not being able to follow classes anymore (it happened to me once in maths and it took me a good while and professional help to catch up again).
I honestly don't think that 20-30 minutes in the afternoon are too much. Especially not when it's going to benefit them for the rest of their lives.
Doing homework with my little fella, let's say I can think of plenty more things to do because it can be draining some days. But I know when I get involved and show him that I care and here to help it reassures him. It's not only about the work it's also about the participation of the parents in the children's education.

moonsun

Yes, I see your point. 20 mins would be fine, but I do think even 30 would be too much. My little fella is 10, and homework can take him over an hour. He cries and moans, and is clearly tired after his school day. It's heartbreaking to watch. The school has a 40-minute policy, so I now stop him at 40 mins and won't let him do any more. But that upsets him too, because he says he gets into trouble if it's not all done. It's insane.

There are 30 kids in his class, which is 'normal', but numbers like that can cause such stress -- teacher and kids. To be honest, I think my child would 'get' things a lot easier if stress wasn't involved. No matter how much facts and 'learning' the teacher and I hammer into his head, it will go nowhere if he's stressed and resisting it. Everything flows easier in a stress-free environment.

I watched a bit of a programme by Michael Moore. He was in Finland, where the kids have the shortest school day (3 hours), they did NO homework, no formal lessons until 7 unless they wanted it themselves, and the Finns are top (or very near the top, I'm not 100pc sure) of the world league tables in terms of literacy, numeracy, etc. That says everything to me.

Moonbeam

The school day in Finland is approx 5 hours long.
Finland is known to have the best education system in Europe and possibly the world,Ireland is way way off Finland on so many levels.
They don't start school until 6/7 and it does sound amazing:)

silverharp

they are probably a more homogeneous society which would help. Im sure there are things to learn though from them. My lad tended to be stressed by homework but often because it was dumb, homework for the sake of it.
Up until about 8 or 9 they should only be taught maths and learning to read and a language I guess. Half the school day should be them a beanbag and a good book

timmythesheep

Most schools have a homework policy, similarly most schools have a catholic ethos. I have no choice but to use a catholic school, but I do not bring my kids to mass or talk about Catholicism at home - no repercussions.

What I am wondering is, if I choose not to have my kids complete their homework, or only do it on days of my choosing can the school take any negative action i.e. kick my kids out?

LirW

I don't think they'll dismiss your kids, but have you had a talk to the teachers of your kids about it?

byhookorbycrook

LirW wrote: »

I don't think they'll dismiss your kids, but have you had a talk to the teachers of your kids about it?

But how would you know that your child " wouldn't fall behind ?" And if they did , because they didn't get the reinforcement needed in their early years to make sure they master simpler concepts , then what happens

You may be a diligent parent who ensures their child takes part in plenty educational opportunities , but not every parent does or would.

If homework is part of school policy and you decide that your child doesn't want to do it , then you are breaking the school rules , so yes,technically , if it happened over a sustained period , you could face sanctions.

LirW

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But how would you know that your child " wouldn't fall behind ?" And if they did , because they didn't get the reinforcement needed in their early years to make sure they master simpler concepts , then what happens

You may a diligent parent who ensures their child takes part in plenty educational opportunities , but not every parent does or would.

If homework is part of school policy and you decide that your child doesn't want to do it , then you are breaking the school rules , so yes,technically , if it happened over a sustained period , you could face sanctions.

I'm pro homework in an adequate amount I'm totally with you.

Owryan

I've 2 in first class. Any homework they got last year was only a few minutes(felt much longer), mainly some reading, writing and spelling. Nothing to kick up a fuss over imo. Plus its nice to sit with your child and let them show you what they have learnt.

moonsun

Hi Timmy the sheep, I'd say you could talk to the teacher first, and if you get nothing positive there, then talk to the principal. If your child is stressed, they can't argue with that. Get a doctors note if you have to.

I think homework should be optional. Some parents would like to do homework with their kids, and the kids might be ok doing it too, and so that's all grand. But if it genuinely stresses the child, how in god's name could any good come out of forcing them to do it?

I think more parents need to broach this subject with their kids' school. If more parents took a stand, then something might be done about it. Says she....

I've already told the principal in my son's school that I'd like the young fella (he's nearly 11) to be on a four-day week. He can't condone it but he can't stop me either. He's really nice btw. I'm still thinking about it. My son learns so much just by being in the community, listening to neighbours' stories and gossip, going to the library, doing errands, reading lots, asking (non-stop) questions, so I wouldn't sweat too much about his missing one day a week. It could give him the vital breathing space to bring him back to himself. I might just do it for a few months. So what if the Dept of Ed starts on at me. I'll deal with them very politely!

It really bothers me when I think of how much 'research' and reading the little fella did when he was very young - between 4 and 7 - he had a huge range of interests -- astrology, paleontology, cosmology, architecture, etc etc, and he filled a pile of notebooks with his rambling observations. But now that has all but gone. He's not interested in anything any more, because, I think, school takes all his energy, and he hates it. School seems to have killed his natural love of learning. I only hope it revives.

AndrewJRenko

moonsun wrote: »

I've already told the principal in my son's school that I'd like the young fella (he's nearly 11) to be on a four-day week. He can't condone it but he can't stop me either. He's really nice btw. I'm still thinking about it. My son learns so much just by being in the community, listening to neighbours' stories and gossip, going to the library, doing errands, reading lots, asking (non-stop) questions, so I wouldn't sweat too much about his missing one day a week. It could give him the vital breathing space to bring him back to himself. I might just do it for a few months. So what if the Dept of Ed starts on at me. I'll deal with them very politely!

If he misses 20 days over the year, the principal is required to make a report to TUSLA. I'm not suggesting they'll coming storming in to take your child to the orphanage, but they will be required to investigate and assess the child's welfare.

moonsun

Yeah, that's right. But that would be fine; I'd welcome them! Tusla would be just doing their job by checking that I'm a vaguely reasonable person, I'm not a roaring alcoholic and that I have a reason for doing what I'm doing. I wouldn't battle with anyone over this; I would just stick to the truth. It would do the young fella a power of good to see me supporting him in this way. I feel bad enough that I have just dumped him in a jungle of a school for 6 years so far. Stress in a child is not a pretty sight, and it's so avoidable.

byhookorbycrook

It sounds that it's a bit more than anxiety around the area of homework, it might be worth talking to the school about meeting with the NEPS psychologist.

moonsun

Half the school day should be them a beanbag and a good book [/QUOTE]

Love the idea of the beanbag and book!

moonsun

Yes (byhookorbycrook), thanks, we've been down the route of assessment. Turns out he's extra bright and has ADHD and high-functioning autism, even though he's outgoing, sociable, sense of humour, sensitive to others' feelings, etc. But resource teachers don't seem to be trained to deal with this type of child. They deal with kids at the other end of the scale. So my son is stuck in the middle. No wonder homework is so stressful. He finds it very difficult to concentrate on something unless he's actually interested in it! And he's not making it up either, I can see his bewilderment in his red, puffed-up eyes, god love him. He's all over the place (but hugely improved from a few years ago). A teacher once told me that she believed primary and secondary school have nothing to offer him. He'll have to wait til he's in uni, doing his own research, before he's at ease re studying and learning. The rote learning system means nothing to him. But I have just managed to talk the resource teacher into letting him do homework during resource time, because that will free him up to be a child after school, rather than a perpetual, stressed-out pupil.

byhookorbycrook

I'm so sorry to see that your son's needs are not being met, it would seem that his homework is not differentiated to his needs, that would be my first port of call. Are you familiar with CTYI?

moonsun

Hi, thanks for this, byhookorbycrook. Yes, he did his first CTYI course (forensic science) in the summer, and loved it! He was rivetted, hung onto the teacher's every word. He couldn't believe that the teacher didn't repeat herself ad nauseum, and that the children all got what she said first time.

An Irish woman I know worked in Dubai for a few years as a resource teacher. Unusually for an Irish teacher, she specialised in gifted children for her masters in education (which she got in Dublin). She said that in Dubai, classes are 20 kids max, there are always 2 teachers, plus support teachers as needed. The kids are given work according to the results of their standardised tests (like our Drumcondras). So the kids' varying levels were all catered to.

I still prefer the Finnish approach....!!

Romantic Rose

Moonbeam wrote: »

The school day in Finland is approx 5 hours long.
Finland is known to have the best education system in Europe and possibly the world,Ireland is way way off Finland on so many levels.
They don't start school until 6/7 and it does sound amazing:)

The class sizes in Finland are tiny. 17 pupils on average the whole way up the school. Our class sizes are a disgrace.
In my local town, classes of 35 is average here. The only time I have ever come across a small class size is when the Junior Infants class were split but put back together in Senior Infants.

Yes, I do think children should get homework. 5 minutes per class is enough and what is recommended. It's great for your child's self esteem to let them show you what they know and reinforce concepts learnt in the classroom.

Especially as above- with pupils being in such gigantic class sizes, they can easily be left behind.

mohawk

One poster said 30 minutes in the afternoon isn't too much to ask. But I would like to point out that for a lot of working parents it is after 7pm before homework can begin and believe me a primary school kid is tired at that time. I must confess that I usually skip the reading portion as he thinks the Oxford readers are boring and we read together at night. Currently we are reading Harry Potter together - we take turns reading sections it is slow but he is enjoying it.

I can see the benefit in spellings and tables but is there a need for maths, English, Irish, reading, tables and spellings for both English and Irish every night?

evolving_doors

I think the constitution would trump any threats from the school. Parents are the primary educators, so what happens at home is your call.
I'd still like to keep my kids on top of stuff though...
But in the OP's situation they can look at the holistic aspect of the child who needs that time for other stuff.

grogi

moonsun wrote: »

I agree with the original poster -- homework should be for older kids only. Kids should be outside playing, not stuck indoors stressing over homework.

If you spent 15 minutes with your kid working on this homework, you would know how it looks like and might have a different opinion.

kandr10

An issue here is that a lot of parents here on boards seem pretty on top of supporting their kids with reading and oral language etc. While I generally agree that homework needs to be re thought, I'm also mindful of the children who don't get such support from their parents. A lot of kids don't ever get read stories and don't ever pick up books or have access to them. In those cases, having structured homework with a bit of reading or spellings is the only practise they will get outside school. By it's nature, homework has to be largely one size fits all and therefore fails to suit the needs of all children. While I don't agree with homework for the sake of it, another type of home school link needs to be established, especially for the kids that need the extra support.

In response to op, meeting with the teacher and figuring out a way to differentiate the homework for your child is a good idea. Perhaps an exercise like read a few pages from a book and summarise, where the child can pick the book that interests them?

It might be worth considering how not doing the homework could affect the child. Would they be aware they're doing something different to the other kids and that cause stress? you know your child best, but just a consideration.

Hotblack Desiato

moonsun wrote: »

I've already told the principal in my son's school that I'd like the young fella (he's nearly 11) to be on a four-day week. He can't condone it but he can't stop me either. He's really nice btw. I'm still thinking about it. My son learns so much just by being in the community, listening to neighbours' stories and gossip, going to the library, doing errands, reading lots, asking (non-stop) questions, so I wouldn't sweat too much about his missing one day a week. It could give him the vital breathing space to bring him back to himself. I might just do it for a few months. So what if the Dept of Ed starts on at me. I'll deal with them very politely!

Wonder what they'd say if you said you were homeschooling on those days. They allow whole-time homeschooling, so why not part-time?

moonsun

If your child has special needs, and has huge problems concentrating, then there's no such thing as getting homework done in 15 minutes.

moonsun

Hi Hotblack Desiato,
I asked the principal could my son do a four-day week, and that's when he said he couldn't stop him but he couldn't condone it either because his job is to maximise on school attendance. I could have him on a 4-day week if I wanted -- it's entirely my call. I'd deal with Tusla.

But my son is now doing homework during resource time in school -- and he's coming home in top form every day. It's amazing the difference in him, even though he says he still hates school. He hates being lectured at and having to sit still nearly all day. Don't we all!

Also, he likes a mix of ages, but he's in with kids all his age. This just adds to the artificiality of the school system because they get competitive and insecure with each other. My son loves to be the big, protective boy with little kids, and also to learn from and be 'minded' by older kids. The school discourages them from mixing with children outside their class, even with the children from the equivalent class to theirs. Why oh why. It functions in the opposite way to the real world.

Hotblack Desiato

Glad to hear things are going better for your son at school. Tbh I found my school years to be pretty stressful, not the schoolwork but the other kids, many of whom were downright nasty little feckers and several have done stretches in Mountjoy

I live in a different area now and my kids go to a 4-teacher school so each class is doubled up (1st with 2nd, 3rd with 4th etc) which is a good thing I think, but our elder child was finishing her work quickly and then earwigging on what the older kids in the same room were doing, so when she got to the next year she'd heard it all before and got bored! but the school were great and let her go to the resource teacher and work on a project to keep her stimulated.

They also do 'buddy reading' where kids from 5th and 6th class go into the younger kids' classes and help them with their work, this is a great idea I think.

byhookorbycrook

We do buddy reading, where 1st work with 5th and 4th with senior infants. We also do shared maths where 6th and 3rd work together. We do shared reading in senior infants and 1st, where the child reads at home with their parent and also shared maths in second class. We also take children with high ability and exceptional abilty for group work.

moonsun

Sorry to hear about your schooldays -- nightmare.
Both schools mentioned above sound great. I tnink mixing ages like that is such a good idea, and for kids to help each other. It's far more 'natural'.
Would love to hear more about the school that actually recognises and deals with kids of high ability. Most of the time they are not considered for any extra attention or help because 'they know it all'.

byhookorbycrook

Moonsun, sadly the DES don't make resources available to schools to support exceptionally able students, though it does recognise them as having an SEN too.Have a look at giftedkids.ie