Suicide

This just came up on The Irish Times website. The fact that the supervisor of the area admitted to the coroner that he didn't even bother to take a minute or two to view CCTV of the area at the time the employee took his own life speaks volumes. You can bet if a bike had been stolen they'd have checked it.

‘Stand up to bullies’ written on wall of canteen where man took own life, inquest told: Stephen Taylor (43) worked as a park ranger for Fingal County Council prior to 2017 death

branie2

Tragic

Wanderer2010

Deleted User wrote: »

This just came up on The Irish Times website. The fact that the supervisor of the area admitted to the coroner that he didn't even bother to take a minute or two to view CCTV of the area at the time the employee took his own life speaks volumes. You can bet if a bike had been stolen they'd have checked it.

‘Stand up to bullies’ written on wall of canteen where man took own life, inquest told: Stephen Taylor (43) worked as a park ranger for Fingal County Council prior to 2017 death

I wonder is the person or persons who bullied this man still employed there? I would be curious do these pieces of sh!t bullies in jobs ever feel any remorse for what they did. An event like this pretty much points the finger at bullies "You are the reason I killed myself". Scum should be fired.

freshpopcorn

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I wonder is the person or persons who bullied this man still employed there? I would be curious do these pieces of sh!t bullies in jobs ever feel any remorse for what they did. An event like this pretty much points the finger at bullies "You are the reason I killed myself". Scum should be fired.

Not trying to turn this into a big debate but I think school/workplace/etc bullying is very hard to prove unless they are witnesses or somebody owns up to it.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This just came up on The Irish Times website. The fact that the supervisor of the area admitted to the coroner that he didn't even bother to take a minute or two to view CCTV of the area at the time the employee took his own life speaks volumes. You can bet if a bike had been stolen they'd have checked it.

‘Stand up to bullies’ written on wall of canteen where man took own life, inquest told: Stephen Taylor (43) worked as a park ranger for Fingal County Council prior to 2017 death

That’s nothing like what he said, at least not according to your own link anyway?


Ciaran Rooney, the supervisor, said he entered the canteen and saw the words ‘stand up to bullies’ written in graffiti on the wall before discovering Mr Taylor.

...

Asked what information CCTV footage at the yard revealed on the day of Mr Taylor’s death, Mr Rooney said he did not know because he did not look at it.

Asked why, as a supervisor, he did not view the footage, Mr Rooney said he was not asked to.


You don’t think it was traumatising enough for him to have discovered the body in the first place?

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I wonder is the person or persons who bullied this man still employed there? I would be curious do these pieces of sh!t bullies in jobs ever feel any remorse for what they did. An event like this pretty much points the finger at bullies "You are the reason I killed myself". Scum should be fired.

No, all it does is fuel speculation about why a person chose to take their own life and gives people who need it an excuse to point the finger at other people who may not be guilty of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Nobody should be fired when there is no reason to fire anyone. That’s why there is an inquest in the first place - not to apportion blame, but to determine the actual circumstances surrounding the cause of a person choosing to take their own life. Pointing fingers requires actual evidence of any wrongdoing, not just allegations of perceived wrongdoing by others.

Wanderer2010

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s nothing like what he said, at least not according to your own link anyway?


Ciaran Rooney, the supervisor, said he entered the canteen and saw the words ‘stand up to bullies’ written in graffiti on the wall before discovering Mr Taylor.

...

Asked what information CCTV footage at the yard revealed on the day of Mr Taylor’s death, Mr Rooney said he did not know because he did not look at it.

Asked why, as a supervisor, he did not view the footage, Mr Rooney said he was not asked to.


You don’t think it was traumatising enough for him to have discovered the body in the first place?





No, all it does is fuel speculation about why a person chose to take their own life and gives people who need it an excuse to point the finger at other people who may not be guilty of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Nobody should be fired when there is no reason to fire anyone. That’s why there is an inquest in the first place - not to apportion blame, but to determine the actual circumstances surrounding the cause of a person choosing to take their own life. Pointing fingers requires actual evidence of any wrongdoing, not just allegations of perceived wrongdoing by others.

He wrote stand up to bullies on the wall of the workplace canteen where he took his life. He was off for 2 weeks for workplace related stress a few months before that. The man was clearly being bullied and although there is no evidence, and in most cases you are right its very hard to prove, someone there was the bully and they should be absolutely fcuking ashamed that they drove another human being to take their life. Someone there knows who the bully is, people aren't stupid.

Strumms

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

He wrote stand up to bullies on the wall of the workplace canteen where he took his life. He was off for 2 weeks for workplace related stress a few months before that. The man was clearly being bullied and although there is no evidence, and in most cases you are right its very hard to prove, someone there was the bully and they should be absolutely fcuking ashamed that they drove another human being to take their life. Someone there knows who the bully is, people aren't stupid.

What is worse is seeing people in positions of responsibility and authority turn a blind eye and facilitate it due to trying to keep the target off their back too. In jobs people need to be brave, need to stick up for one another. Not just management but especially management. Bullying is just facilitated because of silence.

One eyed Jack

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

He wrote stand up to bullies on the wall of the workplace canteen where he took his life. He was off for 2 weeks for workplace related stress a few months before that. The man was clearly being bullied and although there is no evidence, and in most cases you are right its very hard to prove, someone there was the bully and they should be absolutely fcuking ashamed that they drove another human being to take their life. Someone there knows who the bully is, people aren't stupid.

If he was actually clearly being bullied, then there would be evidence of him being bullied. The facts are that it’s not clear he was being bullied, but he felt he was. Whether he was actually being bullied or not, we simply don’t know and may never know, and nobody has any reason to be ashamed of something they haven’t done. All we actually do know for certain is that the man took his own life. We absolutely don’t know why, as is the case with a great number of suicides - we simply don’t know why a person chooses to take their own life, and pointing fingers because of allegations they made before their death isn’t likely to lead to an answer either. It’s far more likely to cause the persecution of innocent individuals.

You say that people aren’t stupid and yet here you are claiming that an individual took their own life because they were clearly being bullied, yet you have no evidence to suggest that they were actually being bullied. Frankly, I beg to differ with your opinion, I would suggest that people can be incredibly stupid, especially in circumstances surrounding a tragedy like suicide where people are looking for someone to blame.

SexBobomb

I had no idea there was such a massive difference in numbers between male and female. Obviously I would want the numbers to be zero across the board but has there been any reasons/theories given as to why the male rate is so much higher ?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

SexBobomb wrote: »

I had no idea there was such a massive difference in numbers between male and female. Obviously I would want the numbers to be zero across the board but has there been any reasons/theories given as to why the male rate is so much higher ?

It's fairly consistent across cultures with some outliers, which would seem to suggest it's not primarily a cultural thing.

Men tend to use more decisive and successful methods, without getting graphic the more violent ones. Women tend to OD or slit their wrists. So while more women engage in self harm and attempt suicide, more survive the attempt than men.

Men also usually engage with mental health support systems less, and later. In Ireland and a lot of other places those systems are barely fit for purpose anyway unfortunately.

Men are at higher risk from other factors which strongly correlate with suicide, particularly addiction and homelessness. Unemployment also tends to affect men's mental health more than it does women's, the whole pressure to be a provider thing.

freshpopcorn

SexBobomb wrote: »

I had no idea there was such a massive difference in numbers between male and female. Obviously I would want the numbers to be zero across the board but has there been any reasons/theories given as to why the male rate is so much higher ?

I remember reading something years ago a lot of women do try and commit suicide but men use more violent/harsher methods.

Wanderer2010

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If he was actually clearly being bullied, then there would be evidence of him being bullied. The facts are that it’s not clear he was being bullied, but he felt he was. Whether he was actually being bullied or not, we simply don’t know and may never know, and nobody has any reason to be ashamed of something they haven’t done. All we actually do know for certain is that the man took his own life. We absolutely don’t know why, as is the case with a great number of suicides - we simply don’t know why a person chooses to take their own life, and pointing fingers because of allegations they made before their death isn’t likely to lead to an answer either. It’s far more likely to cause the persecution of innocent individuals.

You say that people aren’t stupid and yet here you are claiming that an individual took their own life because they were clearly being bullied, yet you have no evidence to suggest that they were actually being bullied. Frankly, I beg to differ with your opinion, I would suggest that people can be incredibly stupid, especially in circumstances surrounding a tragedy like suicide where people are looking for someone to blame.

There is a very odd almost defensive tone to that post. The fact is the man chose those words very carefully. He didn't end his life in a pub, at a golf club or in his home. He knew what he was doing when he picked those words and its quite clear there was a bullying issue if he was off for 2 weeks from work with stress. And everyone in a job knows who the bully is. As insidious as workplace bullying is, anyone who isn't a sociopath or narcissist knows exactly who is causing the issue, and whoever pushed this man to do this should be not only sacked but if I had my way they would be charged as bullying, in my opinion, should be against the law.

But as mentioned in another post, usually spineless management allow the bully to thrive simply because people don't want the hassle of dealing with them- they want the easy life. And given how scummy and horrible the piece of sh!t who did this is, he or she probably wont even care and is already moving on to the next victim. Only when people stand up to these cowards will anything change, sadly Ireland is an awful country for that. Stop defending the bully will you, read between the bloody lines, just because he didn't have a smoking gun or recorded confession doesn't mean it wasn't bullying.

lainey_d_123

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If he was actually clearly being bullied, then there would be evidence of him being bullied. The facts are that it’s not clear he was being bullied, but he felt he was. Whether he was actually being bullied or not, we simply don’t know and may never know, and nobody has any reason to be ashamed of something they haven’t done. All we actually do know for certain is that the man took his own life. We absolutely don’t know why, as is the case with a great number of suicides - we simply don’t know why a person chooses to take their own life, and pointing fingers because of allegations they made before their death isn’t likely to lead to an answer either. It’s far more likely to cause the persecution of innocent individuals.

You say that people aren’t stupid and yet here you are claiming that an individual took their own life because they were clearly being bullied, yet you have no evidence to suggest that they were actually being bullied. Frankly, I beg to differ with your opinion, I would suggest that people can be incredibly stupid, especially in circumstances surrounding a tragedy like suicide where people are looking for someone to blame.

Ehh sounds a bit like victim blaming. I've never seen a case where someone 'felt like' they were being bullied for no reason. Maybe in cases of things like paranoid schizophrenia, but there are far more cases of people being bullied and then gaslighted ('ah sure I was just joking', 'can you not take a joke?', 'I didn't mean it in that way') than cases of people feeling victimised when they're not, IMO.

One eyed Jack

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

There is a very odd almost defensive tone to that post. The fact is the man chose those words very carefully. He didn't end his life in a pub, at a golf club or in his home. He knew what he was doing when he picked those words and its quite clear there was a bullying issue if he was off for 2 weeks from work with stress. And everyone in a job knows who the bully is. As insidious as workplace bullying is, anyone who isn't a sociopath or narcissist knows exactly who is causing the issue, and whoever pushed this man to do this should be not only sacked but if I had my way they would be charged as bullying, in my opinion, should be against the law.

But as mentioned in another post, usually spineless management allow the bully to thrive simply because people don't want the hassle of dealing with them- they want the easy life. And given how scummy and horrible the piece of sh!t who did this is, he or she probably wont even care and is already moving on to the next victim. Only when people stand up to these cowards will anything change, sadly Ireland is an awful country for that. Stop defending the bully will you, read between the bloody lines, just because he didn't have a smoking gun or recorded confession doesn't mean it wasn't bullying.

There was no defensive tone in my post, only a tone you perceived from my post, and that goes to the heart of the point I’m making really - just because a person perceives themselves being bullied, doesn’t mean they actually are being bullied, or that anyone is bullying them.

There’s no reading between the lines necessary or looking for something that simply isn’t there in order to blame someone for something they haven’t done. You’ve literally created a whole narrative out of nothing!

FWIW btw bullying and harassment are against the law, and there are numerous other remedies are available to a person who feels they are the victim of some wrongdoing before choosing to take their own life.

I’m not defending any bully because there is no bully to defend, not even the bully you invented to fit your narrative you’ve created on the back of what amounts to nothing more than an allegation.

Bobblehats

I’m not entertaining thoughts of suicide other than they were a great f*ckin band.

Graces7

Dalomanakora wrote: »

Please don't speak for "all of us" with chronic illness. They don't all value the better times. Some can't get out of their mental illnesses.


I have a chronic illness too (more than one actually) and while I absolutely value my life and love it for the most part, that's simply not true of everyone with chronic illness and it's silly to say it is.

Not at all " silly"! Silly word to use..Defeatism is self defeating; we all have it in us to recover and cope. saying and acting else is not wise or realistic. we all also have it in us to sit with someone who is in despair and support them until that crisis passes . rather than align with their despair . suicide is never the answer. not ever. nor is despair.

Graces7

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There was no defensive tone in my post, only a tone you perceived from my post, and that goes to the heart of the point I’m making really - just because a person perceives themselves being bullied, doesn’t mean they actually are being bullied, or that anyone is bullying them.

There’s no reading between the lines necessary or looking for something that simply isn’t there in order to blame someone for something they haven’t done. You’ve literally created a whole narrative out of nothing!

FWIW btw bullying and harassment are against the law, and there are numerous other remedies are available to a person who feels they are the victim of some wrongdoing before choosing to take their own life.

I’m not defending any bully because there is no bully to defend, not even the bully you invented to fit your narrative you’ve created on the back of what amounts to nothing more than an allegation.

People refuse or fail to stand up to bullies as they are scared they too will be bullied. So they walk by on the other side. Bullies are essentially cowards.

DeiseNew

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There was no defensive tone in my post, only a tone you perceived from my post, and that goes to the heart of the point I’m making really - just because a person perceives themselves being bullied, doesn’t mean they actually are being bullied, or that anyone is bullying them.

There’s no reading between the lines necessary or looking for something that simply isn’t there in order to blame someone for something they haven’t done. You’ve literally created a whole narrative out of nothing!

FWIW btw bullying and harassment are against the law, and there are numerous other remedies are available to a person who feels they are the victim of some wrongdoing before choosing to take their own life.

I’m not defending any bully because there is no bully to defend, not even the bully you invented to fit your narrative you’ve created on the back of what amounts to nothing more than an allegation.

Not much pity from you!

One eyed Jack

DeiseNew wrote: »

Not much pity from you!

I’m just not looking to blame anyone else when someone chooses to take their own life is all if that’s what you mean?

I don’t condone suicide anyway, regardless of the circumstances.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

In Donegal some years ago there was also a cluster of suicides (among girls, if I recall) in the one area, as if one suicide puts the idea into the heads of people as a real alternative. It really is a destructive presence in our society.

The film Heathers brilliantly dealt with this amongst teens.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m not defending any bully because there is no bully to defend, not even the bully you invented to fit your narrative you’ve created on the back of what amounts to nothing more than an allegation.

How could you possibly know this? As previously stated, a peculiar defensive tone to your posts. Worth remembering I suppose that on a web forum like this you never know who anyone is. Seems from your posts you have some skin in this game?

the problem with bullying as an allegation is that there is a high percentage of people out there that struggle with interpersonal relationships or daily tasks and that the natural inclination is to personalise this struggle

ive seen managers accused of bullying so often just for attempting to do their job that its unreal.

ive seen far more people unable or unwilling to do their part of the lifting in maintaining even casual work relationships where they decide that theyre being bullied and its almost always fairer to describe it as a clash of personalities or one person simply choosing not to be a close friend/crutch when thats what the self-declared bullying victim would like them to be.

when you see a total lack of evidence as in this case jumped upon as it has been, with people calling for sackings without one shred of evidence, you have to despair. anyone who has ever had to work or interact with people outside of immediate family should know that adaptability and resilience are vital but regardless you are going to run into situations of conflict. jumping to conclusions of 'bullying' simply because one party is claiming it is utterly simplistic and pointless.

the man is dead and we'll never find out his struggles, but to pretend we know enough to make high judgements on his coworkers is an ugly impulse and an act of complete projection.

the reporting of it is tawdry enough but i suppose theres no way to not address the statement that he left, but as OEJ has already correctly argued the last note of a person in these circumstances should be treated with extreme caution as a piece of evidence

Pretzill

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m just not looking to blame anyone else when someone chooses to take their own life is all if that’s what you mean?

I don’t condone suicide anyway, regardless of the circumstances.

But he left a note to his wife which highlighted workplace bullying - did you read the article?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How could you possibly know this? As previously stated, a peculiar defensive tone to your posts. Worth remembering I suppose that on a web forum like this you never know who anyone is. Seems from your posts you have some skin in this game?

who is the bully so? what story have you got that wouldnt be 99% your own invention?

insinuating that OEJ has anything to do with this simply because theyre arguing against the tabloid-whipped reaction is very poor form imo

Pretzill

Pretzill wrote: »

But he left a note to his wife which highlighted workplace bullying - did you read the article?

what action would you take on such a note?

as an employer, as a prosecutor?

Pretzill

[Deleted User] wrote: »

what action would you take on such a note?

as an employer, as a prosecutor?

Not for me to action. It's just looking like this man was bullied and with dire consequences. There are reasons why people take their own life.

Pretzill

Pretzill wrote: »

Not for me to action. It's just looking like this man was bullied and with dire consequences. There are reasons why people take their own life.

the reasons somebody takes their own life are very often fractured, complex and sometimes based on a perspective that is at the very least flawed.

its rarely a case of one cause neatly laid out, and even if the person themselves does so its not always a reliable perspective.

would you not agree with that much?

i know its not for you to action, but im only asking because you seem ok with drawing conclusions from what we know here.

so i am trying to see how far you think "what we know" goes.

would we not assume the workplace has investigated any evidence of bullying already? the director of public prosecutions wouldn't have looked at criminal liability?

i hate to appeal to the presumed greater detail these actors have but it really isnt something to rush into conclusions about simply by virtue of the man taking his own life, which is of course a tragedy but cannot inform any findings on cause in and if itself.

Pretzill

This is a discussion board not a litigious setting so assuming or presuming isn't even necessary. I was commenting in relation to the article posted and to how it's easy to draw conclusions based on that - what else? It can be unfathomable why someone chooses to end their life but sometimes not so.

JupiterKid

Well, all I can relate is my own experience of workplace bullying which was relentless and horrendous and nearly destroyed me completely. I had a total emotional and mental breakdown and entered a wilderness period where my life was going in only one direction - oblivion.

Thankfully during the past 3 years I have re-emerged from the darkest of places but bullying cost me the best part of a decade of my life and career.

Workplace bullying is something pervasive and corrosive and nothing to be dismissed or made light of.

ILoveYourVibes

I don't want to preach or sound like I am preaching to people who are having these feelings.

But people need to be told its OK to walk away from things in life sometimes. I think people are afraid of looking weak or like failure.

Its better to be vulnerable and ...well here with us.