can we sell our national rail?

Mr.H

OK so I know if we sold it the incoming owner would just continue to divert all resources to Dublin and close bathe rest of the routes.

But would it be possible to put the non Dublin routes bout to tender or better still, offer other companies the right to come in, build their own tracks and routes and keep 100% of the profit.

Only thing could be they can't off devices to or from Dublin.

That would allow Irish rail (Dublin rail) to continue with their only Dublin attitude but would allow the chance for the rest of the country to be actually serviced

Isambard

define a non-Dublin route.

Dravokivich

It'd be very hard pressed to see why they would. How could they improve on the Subsidy costs per passenger?

They'd be much better off getting into something that didn't require them to maintain infrastructure too.

Doltanian

Just breakup the unions and continue as is with some private management, only on real world wages.

Mr.H

Isambard wrote: »

define a non-Dublin route.

Limerick to Cork, Limerick To Waterford.

Many routes could be laid. Cork to Waterford?

Could lay a cummuter ring train that goes around Munster? Could have a train connecting Galway and Donegal.

The problem is there are not many non Dublin routes as far as many people are concerned.

The reason why the WRC and the Limerick to Waterford routes are failing is nothing to do with people not wanting them and everything to do with Irish Rail.

I used the Limerick to Waterford train twice weekly for almost 4 years. I can tell you that it was often not busy. But this was more down to poor service than passenger interest. There was 2 services a day each way with 2 carriages (might have been three). This was before they brought in the new Trains to the route.

I also got the bus many times. There was 6 services each way every single day and they were always full.

You cannot buy tickets (or at least couldnt. I dont know if they have improved it but I doubt it) for Limerick to Waterford online because the website doesnt allow it. Nor was it possible to buy tickets from Limerick to Galway. Even though the train was often cheaper than the bus, much more comfortable and slightly quicker (even with a half hour wait in the junction for the waterford route).

The service was often down due to maintenance and a bus was used to commute passengers to the next station.

If the route was actually promoted properly (it is not and was not) and actually ran at reasonable times (no sunday service!!! the earliest train into waterford was well after 9am. The latest train leaving was before 5) you would easily fill the train and it would not be a loss making route.

The issue is they do not want the route to succeed because they want to close the route.

They want Irish Rail to be solely service Dublin because that is where they can get the higher passenger numbers.

But just because 10 thousand people dont want to use the route a day doesnt mean that 1 thousand people wont (840 people would fill 6 buses travelling both directions of the route). A bit of incentive for people to use it wouldnt hurt

Mr.H

Surely they could find ways to reduce the costs. What about renewable energy? that would certainly reduce energy costs.

They could change signal crossings so there would be no need for people to be at gate houses. In a lot of the rural stations there are just workers standing around doing nothing. There surely only needs to be one person covering an 8 hour shift. Its not like a lot of trains pass by.

LeinsterDub

Doltanian wrote: »

Just breakup the unions and continue as is with some private management, only on real world wages.

You can't blame the union and management for everything. Simply put there is no demand for some routes.

Isambard

so many things there to comment on. I'll pick one....

Limerick to Galway by train is not quicker than the bus and about to become much slower. Many of the passengers on the train are only there because they slashed the price to justify the train service.

oh go on, one more....

Limerick to Cork is an integral part of the Dublin to Cork service.

Mr.H

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You can't blame the union and management for everything. Simply put there is no demand for some routes.

No demand for routes people dont know about

You cant get a train from from Cork to Waterford on a Sunday!!

There are reasons for demand not to be there that can easily be solved

Mr.H

Isambard wrote: »

so many things there to comment on. I'll pick one....

Limerick to Galway by train is not quicker than the bus and about to become much slower. Many of the passengers on the train are only there because they slashed the price to justify the train service.

oh go on, one more....

Limerick to Cork is an integral part of the Dublin to Cork service.

No such service

There is a Limerick to Limerick Junction and then connection to Cork

bk

Mr.H wrote: »

No demand for routes people dont know about

I actually agree with LeinsterDub on this one. The problem with lines like this is purely geography and demographics. It is simply much faster to drive on these routes then take the train and even faster to take a bus in many cases.

There really isn't any competing with that reality. You can throw all your marketing money and low fares at these routes and it won't change that reality. And it isn't like the buses aren't cheap too.

Lots of marketing and low fares have been tried in the past, but it just didn't move the needle on passenger numbers and just results in increasing the loss per passenger for these lines.

Mr.H

So how come Irish Rail wouldn't just sell these other routes? Surely it has at least crossed their minds?

bk

Mr.H wrote: »

So how come Irish Rail wouldn't just sell these other routes? Surely it has at least crossed their minds?

Well first of all, CIE is 100% owned by the government, which in turn owns 100% of Irish Rail, so it is really the governments decision to sell or not.

Secondly no one would buy a branch line that losses €700 per passenger carried!

The reality is Irish Rail would probably love to just clsoe down these lines, but in the end it is a political decision.

end of the road

selling off the railway is not really an option. britain effectively tried it and it failed, the infrastructure had to be brought back into state hands in the end with the trains franchised out (and even then it's debatible whether that shoudl ultimately continue)
for here the best you could probably do is tender all services as 1 lot but i can't see much interest in such a small network if i'm honest. may as well force the improvements on IE in the next contract and actually enforce them (probably more chance of me replacing donald trump as president)

Doltanian wrote: »

Just breakup the unions

can't be done. it is one's right to organise and be in a union.

Doltanian wrote: »

and continue as is with some private management, only on real world wages.

IE management are on real world wages. management wages will be in the hundred to 2 hundred or more grand figure. you are not going to get management on 50 or 30 grand, which i suspect may be your "real world" wages figure?
i don't like that either but it is what it is

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You can't blame the union and management for everything. Simply put there is no demand for some routes.

1 route at most, and even then there may be demand for it but the costs to bring it up to any sort of decent standard would be ridiculous seeing as it has been left to rot for 40 years. for the vast majority, there is demand and they are decently used.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

IE management are on real world wages. management wages will be in the hundred to 2 hundred or more grand figure. you are not going to get management on 50 or 30 grand, which i suspect may be your "real world" wages figure?

How many managers do you think there are in Irish Rail that are getting paid 100,000 - 200,000?

Del2005

Mr.H wrote: »

Limerick to Cork, Limerick To Waterford.

Many routes could be laid. Cork to Waterford?

Could lay a cummuter ring train that goes around Munster? Could have a train connecting Galway and Donegal.

The problem is there are not many non Dublin routes as far as many people are concerned.

The reason why the WRC and the Limerick to Waterford routes are failing is nothing to do with people not wanting them and everything to do with Irish Rail.

I used the Limerick to Waterford train twice weekly for almost 4 years. I can tell you that it was often not busy. But this was more down to poor service than passenger interest. There was 2 services a day each way with 2 carriages (might have been three). This was before they brought in the new Trains to the route.

I also got the bus many times. There was 6 services each way every single day and they were always full.

You cannot buy tickets (or at least couldnt. I dont know if they have improved it but I doubt it) for Limerick to Waterford online because the website doesnt allow it. Nor was it possible to buy tickets from Limerick to Galway. Even though the train was often cheaper than the bus, much more comfortable and slightly quicker (even with a half hour wait in the junction for the waterford route).

The service was often down due to maintenance and a bus was used to commute passengers to the next station.

If the route was actually promoted properly (it is not and was not) and actually ran at reasonable times (no sunday service!!! the earliest train into waterford was well after 9am. The latest train leaving was before 5) you would easily fill the train and it would not be a loss making route.

The issue is they do not want the route to succeed because they want to close the route.

They want Irish Rail to be solely service Dublin because that is where they can get the higher passenger numbers.

But just because 10 thousand people dont want to use the route a day doesnt mean that 1 thousand people wont (840 people would fill 6 buses travelling both directions of the route). A bit of incentive for people to use it wouldnt hurt

Trains only work between large urban centres and we don't have any of those, Dublin isn't dense enough. The only way to make trains viable is to stop one off housing and that's never going to happen. It's always quicker for people who need to drive to the station to stay in the car as they'll get door to door.

Mr.H

bk wrote: »

Well first of all, CIE is 100% owned by the government, which in turn owns 100% of Irish Rail, so it is really the governments decision to sell or not.

Secondly no one would buy a branch line that losses €700 per passenger carried!

The reality is Irish Rail would probably love to just clsoe down these lines, but in the end it is a political decision.

Lets say Irish Rail (or the people that decide on their behalf) allow lets say for the sake of argument Virgin Railways to come in. they allow Virgin Railway full control of all railway in Ireland as long as it doesnt go directly to or from Dublin. Irish Rail wouldnt like to lose its Dublin routes.

This would mean that Virgin would be allowed to invest in infrastructure and build their own network around the country. I am sure they will still leave a lot of the country with rail but surely it would give the rest of the country a fighting chance to get an actual rail service.

Irish Rail have no interest in the rest of the country so why not just give the rights to the rest of the country to someone who might have interest.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

I actually agree with LeinsterDub on this one. The problem with lines like this is purely geography and demographics. It is simply much faster to drive on these routes then take the train and even faster to take a bus in many cases.

There really isn't any competing with that reality. You can throw all your marketing money and low fares at these routes and it won't change that reality. And it isn't like the buses aren't cheap too.

Lots of marketing and low fares have been tried in the past, but it just didn't move the needle on passenger numbers and just results in increasing the loss per passenger for these lines.

limerick to waterford is actually competitive with road apparently.

apart from the odd promotion, and the wrc situation where were all these low fares for extensive periods and where was all the marketing?

bk wrote: »

Well first of all, CIE is 100% owned by the government, which in turn owns 100% of Irish Rail, so it is really the governments decision to sell or not.

Secondly no one would buy a branch line that losses €700 per passenger carried!

The reality is Irish Rail would probably love to just clsoe down these lines, but in the end it is a political decision.

political as the decisians may ultimately be, irish rail don't want to close these lines because they are losing money. they want to close them because they don't fit into the vision of the network they want to run, which is only based on dublin the south and west. even if the lines were profitable that wouldn't change, we aren't dealing with a normal rail operation here from what i can see.

devnull wrote: »

How many managers do you think there are in Irish Rail that are getting paid 100,000 - 200,000?

i would imagine it's only the senior management. he didn't exactly clarify which management he meant, so i decided to only go with senior management as ultimately they make the decisians and have the ultimate responsibility for big decisians.

Mr.H wrote: »

Lets say Irish Rail (or the people that decide on their behalf) allow lets say for the sake of argument Virgin Railways to come in. they allow Virgin Railway full control of all railway in Ireland as long as it doesnt go directly to or from Dublin. Irish Rail wouldnt like to lose its Dublin routes.

This would mean that Virgin would be allowed to invest in infrastructure and build their own network around the country. I am sure they will still leave a lot of the country with rail but surely it would give the rest of the country a fighting chance to get an actual rail service.

Irish Rail have no interest in the rest of the country so why not just give the rights to the rest of the country to someone who might have interest.

i don't believe virgin have ever invested in rail infrastructure. they certainly won't be investing in building lines in ireland.
in the uk where virgin do operate, it's mostly the goverment via network rail who invests in infrastructure.

Mr.H

Del2005 wrote: »

Trains only work between large urban centres and we don't have any of those, Dublin isn't dense enough. The only way to make trains viable is to stop one off housing and that's never going to happen. It's always quicker for people who need to drive to the station to stay in the car as they'll get door to door.

Except buses are still a success and not everyone has a car.

The rail service in Wales is pretty successful and they dont have bigger urban centers than ourselves.

I am talking about Limerick Waterford Galway and Cork............... you could even throw in Kilkenny. They are well populated areas that could easily be served by a well run train service

Isambard

Mr.H wrote: »

No such service

There is a Limerick to Limerick Junction and then connection to Cork

are you for real? it was you who quoted that route!

Mr.H

Isambard wrote: »

are you for real? it was you who quoted that route!

All I am saying is that the Limerick to Cork route is technically a cork to dublin route with the limerick to limerick junction being a commuter train

You cant get a direct limerick to cork

This just feeds the argument that there is very little no dublin routes

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

are you for real? it was you who quoted that route!

he meant there is no direct service. technically you are both right. you can get between the 2 by train but there is no direct service.

Doltanian

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You can't blame the union and management for everything. Simply put there is no demand for some routes.

Because the unions and company deliberatly refuse to run a service that suits people and would rather close it down than try make a go of it.

end of the road

Doltanian wrote: »

Because the unions and company deliberatly refuse to run a service that suits people and would rather close it down than try make a go of it.

the unions don't want to close it down. their members would be out of a job, so that statement makes no sense. the unions don't dictate services.

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

he meant there is no direct service. technically you are both right. you can get between the 2 by train but there is no direct service.[/QUO

The shuttle service Lim to Lim Jnc is an integral function of the Dublin to Cork line It serves almost no other purpose.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

How many managers do you think there are in Irish Rail that are getting paid 100,000 - 200,000?

A few.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

he meant there is no direct service. technically you are both right. you can get between the 2 by train but there is no direct service.[/QUO

The shuttle service Lim to Lim Jnc is an integral function of the Dublin to Cork line It serves almost no other purpose.

that doesn't change the facts of what he said. he said there is no direct service between limerick and cork, not that there is no way of getting by train between limerick and cork.

Really Interested

Mr.H wrote: »

Except buses are still a success and not everyone has a car.

The rail service in Wales is pretty successful and they dont have bigger urban centers than ourselves.

I am talking about Limerick Waterford Galway and Cork............... you could even throw in Kilkenny. They are well populated areas that could easily be served by a well run train service

Wales is not like Ireland in one very important way, it is connected on the north line to Liverpool and Manchester and on the south to Bristol and London to name just a few. I lived in Wales and for a bit worked in London and I took the train. So to say Wales is like Ireland from a train service point of view is just a tad silly.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

A few.

No specific figure?

Reason I asked is that End of the Road was very confident that there were no managers on lower pay figures and that they were on the 100-200k range so I assume that to comment that indicates there may be knowledge of the numbers who are availing of such salary.

Hilly Bill

6

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

Isambard wrote: »

that doesn't change the facts of what he said. he said there is no direct service between limerick and cork, not that there is no way of getting by train between limerick and cork.

but that's not actually what he said. read back.

Lim Junction to Cork is a Dublin route, so the route he should have mentioned is Lim to Lim Junc. it's not realistic to use a route as an example when there is a through service on 90% of the route and a connecting service for the other 10%

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

the unions don't dictate services.

Oh really. Where are my 10 minute DARTs?

Del.Monte

bk wrote: »

Well first of all, CIE is 100% owned by the government, which in turn owns 100% of Irish Rail, so it is really the governments decision to sell or not.

Secondly no one would buy a branch line that losses €700 per passenger carried!

The reality is Irish Rail would probably love to just clsoe down these lines, but in the end it is a political decision.

Even Barry Kenny says it is 'only' €550 per passenger - which lie is the official one?

Hilly Bill

rebel456 wrote: »

Oh really. Where are my 10 minute DARTs?

It's been rebranded as the 10 minute late Dart.

Zebra3

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's been rebranded as the 10 minute late Dart.

*Still on time.

end of the road

rebel456 wrote: »

Oh really. Where are my 10 minute DARTs?

hopefully out the window until we get more infrastructure to allow it to really work.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Even Barry Kenny says it is 'only' €550 per passenger - which lie is the official one?

hmmmm. indeed. good question. it's probably neither, but another one, which has probably been forgotten.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

hopefully out the window until we get more infrastructure to allow it to really work.

Or just maybe we can implement it now as the NTA desires, make use of the millions spent in signal upgrades, instead of pandering to Unions.

I for one want to actually make use of the infrastructure we have.

end of the road

rebel456 wrote: »

Or just maybe we can implement it now as the NTA desires, make use of the millions spent in signal upgrades, instead of pandering to Unions.

there is no pandering to unions. the unions have got nothing yet and they may not get anything. if the NTA desires a 10 minute frequency so much they can call for extra tracks to be put in as is needed. it would allow both a 10 minute frequency and an increase in services to other destinations. implement it now and we may potentially end up with degraded conditions for other services. dart is important to the railway and the city but not everything revolves around it either. it's not all about dart but the railway as a whole.

rebel456 wrote: »

Or I for one want to actually make use of the infrastructure we have.

so do i, but the signalling can only do so much. we need DU and we need more tracks, including the finishing of the kildare route project out of heuston and quad or tripple tracking where possible on the lines out of connolly. where that isn't possible then extra loops.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

there is no pandering to unions. the unions have got nothing yet and they may not get anything

Walking out of talks to discuss new timetables including 10 minute DARTs ring a bell? Reason this has not been introduced is squarely due to Unions.

Mr.H

Really Interested wrote: »

Wales is not like Ireland in one very important way, it is connected on the north line to Liverpool and Manchester and on the south to Bristol and London to name just a few. I lived in Wales and for a bit worked in London and I took the train. So to say Wales is like Ireland from a train service point of view is just a tad silly.

I said the opposite!!

I said that Wales have a much better rail service than we do and have less dense populous. That means that you can have a top class rail service with or without "larger urban centers"

Mr.H

end of the road wrote: »

i don't believe virgin have ever invested in rail infrastructure. they certainly won't be investing in building lines in ireland.
in the uk where virgin do operate, it's mostly the goverment via network rail who invests in infrastructure.

I used Virgin as one example. There are countless train companies in the world that I am pretty sure we could offer our routes to.

They build the routes and take 100% of the profit (obviously minus operational costs)

I am sure that a couple of companies would at least think about it

Mr.H

Isambard wrote: »

Lim Junction to Cork is a Dublin route, so the route he should have mentioned is Lim to Lim Junc. it's not realistic to use a route as an example when there is a through service on 90% of the route and a connecting service for the other 10%

I said "there is not such route"............. Limerick to cork is not a route.

Limerick to Limerick Junction is a route which connects with three routes as far as I know.

• Dublin to Cork
• Cork to Dublin
• Limerick Junction to Waterford

Limerick to Limerick Junc. does not exclusively serve the Dublin/Cork route.

It is merely a connection no different than getting the train from Cork to Dublin and changing to go to Waterford from Hueston. It doesnt mean that the Cork to Dublin Train was part of the route. It was merely a connection.

But I digress, we are way off topic and who cares if we consider the Junc express part of what route?

the fact is unless you are going to or from Dublin, Irish rail dont want to care.

In fact if you used any of the early online price structure to work out how much your fare would be, you could only do it if travelling to or from Dublin. They didnt even acknowledge the existence of other routes. That has changed now but the "screw the cultchy" attitude still remains

end of the road

Mr.H wrote: »

I used Virgin as one example. There are countless train companies in the world that I am pretty sure we could offer our routes to.

They build the routes and take 100% of the profit (obviously minus operational costs)

I am sure that a couple of companies would at least think about it

it's not a viable solution though.
no companies would be interested as there is no profit to be made unless they asset stripped and sold off everything. we don't want that. if left to their own devices it's debatible as to whether they would invest in the existing infrastructure, they definitely wouldn't be building new lines. having the rail infrastructure in private for profit hands was tried in britain and it was a complete failure.
that is why the infrastructure has to stay in state hands. the contract for existing services on existing infrastructure could be put out to tender, however i reccan we wouldn't be able to afford to pay out the subsidies required to allow the companies to make a profit.
most likely it would be 1 or 2 companies at most due to the size of our network so realistically there is likely little point in tendering it out.

Hilly Bill

rebel456 wrote: »

Walking out of talks to discuss new timetables including 10 minute DARTs ring a bell? Reason this has not been introduced is squarely due to Unions.

And the guards. It would cause traffic chaos at places like Merrion gates etc.

Really Interested

Mr.H wrote: »

I said the opposite!!

I said that Wales have a much better rail service than we do and have less dense populous. That means that you can have a top class rail service with or without "larger urban centers"

I know you said the opposite, but you ignore that Wales is land connect to England, and its two main train lines also service the south of England with millions of people and the North of England with also millions of people.

Also while the Rail service is regular it is not cheap 15 years ago a return trip Swansea to London was if I remember in excess of 100 pounds. If i wanted to do the same journey tomorrow morning on a early train to get to london at 9am and return on a 7pm service the ticket would cost 175 and to go first class about 400. Swansea to london is a 3 hour service. Cork to dublin a 2 and a half hour to 2 and 3/4 service I can get at a standard fare paid on the morning for 80 euro with first class for extra 50 return.

I have checked prices staying on the Arriva network, going from the South Swansea to the North Crew depending on train it is a 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 hour service and a return will set you back about 100 pounds. Arrivia is making profit on a turnover touching 300 million it is making a profit about 40 million. I do not think a Irish service can could sustain prices for 3 hour journeys in excess of 100.

Also a north south train journey in Wales the car is really not a viable option as the motorways for east west a north south car journey would take longer than a train.

ClovenHoof

Del2005 wrote: »

Trains only work between large urban centres and we don't have any of those, Dublin isn't dense enough.

Even though it is higher density than Amsterdam and Oslo and about the same as Helsinki and Copenhagen which have complex rail, commuter rail, metro and tram systems?

ClovenHoof

end of the road wrote: »

the unions don't want to close it down. their members would be out of a job, so that statement makes no sense.

When Sligo Rail Freight closed down, and the staff got early retirement/golden handshakes they held a farewell party in a Sligo hotel in which they performed a comedy skit making fun of a local councillor who fought to keep the rail frieight terminal open. If was even in the local papers and he was considering slander charges. They saw the closing of the impressive and now derelict terminal at Sligo docks as a NBRU victory.

The Irish Rail unions FECKIN love when services are shut down. Golden Handshakes and lucrative early retirement plans.

Mr.H

end of the road wrote: »

it's not a viable solution though.
no companies would be interested as there is no profit to be made unless they asset stripped and sold off everything. we don't want that. if left to their own devices it's debatible as to whether they would invest in the existing infrastructure, they definitely wouldn't be building new lines. having the rail infrastructure in private for profit hands was tried in britain and it was a complete failure.
that is why the infrastructure has to stay in state hands. the contract for existing services on existing infrastructure could be put out to tender, however i reccan we wouldn't be able to afford to pay out the subsidies required to allow the companies to make a profit.
most likely it would be 1 or 2 companies at most due to the size of our network so realistically there is likely little point in tendering it out.

Its true I am not sure it would really work. But I was just thinking could there be a chance?

Lets say Elon Musk's Hyperloop. It is currently being rivaled against a company called TNEM.

Both companies have one goal. A high speed transport system. Elon wants his underground and TNEM as far as I am aware want theirs overground.

They want to build on a large scale that spans the continent of America.

So lets say Ireland approached companies like this and said "we are willing to allow you to build and test your ideas here and if you can make it operational you can take 100% of any profits".

Maybe it would work. Maybe it wouldnt. Maybe its something that was even discussed and shot down.

I just think as we are a small country with very poor national public transport we should look at ideas to get what we can for as little as possible.

Mr.H

Really Interested wrote: »

I know you said the opposite, but you ignore that Wales is land connect to England, and its two main train lines also service the south of England with millions of people and the North of England with also millions of people.

Also while the Rail service is regular it is not cheap 15 years ago a return trip Swansea to London was if I remember in excess of 100 pounds. If i wanted to do the same journey tomorrow morning on a early train to get to london at 9am and return on a 7pm service the ticket would cost 175 and to go first class about 400. Swansea to london is a 3 hour service. Cork to dublin a 2 and a half hour to 2 and 3/4 service I can get at a standard fare paid on the morning for 80 euro with first class for extra 50 return.

I have checked prices staying on the Arriva network, going from the South Swansea to the North Crew depending on train it is a 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 hour service and a return will set you back about 100 pounds. Arrivia is making profit on a turnover touching 300 million it is making a profit about 40 million. I do not think a Irish service can could sustain prices for 3 hour journeys in excess of 100.

Also a north south train journey in Wales the car is really not a viable option as the motorways for east west a north south car journey would take longer than a train.

Not everyone has a car.

I did ignore England in that as my point is simple that the towns in wales use the train. You dont need it to be purely focused on the capital for it to work.

The train from Limerick to Galway could easily be quicker than by car if they actually upgraded the line. If they took care of it and tried to make it work.

But they wont do that because they are too busy looking after just 25% of the country in around Dublin.

Really Interested

Mr.H wrote: »

Not everyone has a car.

I did ignore England in that as my point is simple that the towns in wales use the train. You dont need it to be purely focused on the capital for it to work.

The train from Limerick to Galway could easily be quicker than by car if they actually upgraded the line. If they took care of it and tried to make it work.

But they wont do that because they are too busy looking after just 25% of the country in around Dublin.

You cant ignore England Wales is not disconnected from England. Much of the traffic in north and south of the country is going to England. The valley routes are very slow and very expensive compared to Ireland.

I travel a lot to Dublin as do many i work with Train used to be last choice, with Car/Bus first main reason is costs and the Cork Dublin Route is nowhere near the price of a similar journey in Wales or England. A first class Cork Dublin to take at any time is 130 euro the same fare first class Cardiff to London would be the bones of 370 pounds.

Also I said that a North SOuth journey is not great going by car as the road are not as good as east west.

devnull

Generally though First Class in UK is almost exclusively aimed at the rich and business community and is a far more of a premium product than it would be in Ireland, hence the free refreshments, leather seats, tables, pullman silver service dinning, at seat service, massive leather seats etc on the intercity operators.

You can still sometimes travel off-peak quite cheaply in First Class though but for long distance intercity travel First Class more than pays it way in the UK, however it's (rightly) in the process of being phased out on commuter routes.