Cycle lanes should not be mandatory for cyclists - RSA

magicbastarder

from irishcycle.com:

Based on Irish and international evidence, cycle tracks should not mandatory for people cycling to use, the Road Safety Authority told the Department of Transport a year ago.

Cycle tracks are the legal name for cycle lanes and most types of cycle paths in Ireland. The law was change in 2012 to remove mandatory use of cycle tracks for bicycle users, but the department have since claimed that there is an error in the legislation which invalidated the intent of the law change. Cycling groups have rejected this view.

The view of the RSA is likely to be welcomed by cycling groups, but it is unclear if recommended further research will change the position.

http://irishcycle.com/2017/09/10/evidence-shows-cycle-lanes-should-not-be-mandatory-rsa-told-rosss-department/

colour me pleasantly surprised.

ThisRegard

So where's all the aggro coming from with acknowledging Varadkar's intentions at the time, a civil servant with a chip on his/her shoulder?

Sleeper12

I've seen some but very few cyclists using the the road in clontarf heading out to howth. This is can be annoying as the road is so narrow now and there is the 3 mill euro newly cycle lane beside it.

It probably wouldn't be as annoying if I could get figure out the reason why.

Not having a pop at cyclists, there'll be a plenty along too does that later in the thread. I do stress that there's only a few cyclists on the road there.

magicbastarder

ThisRegard wrote: »

So where's all the aggro coming from with acknowledging Varadkar's intentions at the time, a civil servant with a chip on his/her shoulder?

don't forget the 'change of mind' originated in the department and was communicated to the RSA (if i understand correctly) - it didn't originate with the RSA, who i guess are subordinate to the department.

doolox

Where dead stops are caused by westbound cyclists crossing the entry point from the M50 West bound onto the N4?? This propagates down the slip road onto the M50 and is one cause of delays and frustration on the M50 northbound after about 3.30 pm. In a properly designed junction with properly trained drivers the speed should never drop below 40 kph on this road even allowing a reduction from the minimum speed limit of 60 kph on a section of the n4 near liffey valley just beyond the n4/m50 junction. Yet cars are forced to stop completely for minutes at a time on this road.

There is a separate cycle lane and route for cyclists on both sides of the n4 which is rarely used but the main route is totally unsuitable for cyclists as it involves a lot of high speed merging and lane changing with motorised transport of widely varying dimensions and profiles, trucks busses etc which may not see a cyclist in time to stop. Heaven help anybody in a small car ahead of a truck who is forced to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting a cyclist in these situations.

Macy0161

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Not having a pop at cyclists, there'll be a plenty along too does that later in the thread. I do stress that there's only a few cyclists on the road there.

Don't know the section, but it's generally either the quality (surface, how it treats junctions) or has just become a wider and/or alternative footpath. Can also be the speed a cyclist is going - if someone is training, it's probably not appropriate to be used what is essentially a shared use space. Is that the track that I've regularly seen photo's of cars parked and driving on it?

The bottom line is really, what looks like a "perfectly good" cycle lane from a car, may not actually be very good for cyclists. Most are about getting cyclists out of the way of cars, rather than providing better and safer facilities for cyclists.

godtabh

doolox wrote: »

Where dead stops are caused by westbound cyclists crossing the entry point from the M50 West bound onto the N4?? This propagates down the slip road onto the M50 and is one cause of delays and frustration on the M50 northbound after about 3.30 pm. In a properly designed junction with properly trained drivers the speed should never drop below 40 kph on this road even allowing a reduction from the minimum speed limit of 60 kph on a section of the n4 near liffey valley just beyond the n4/m50 junction. Yet cars are forced to stop completely for minutes at a time on this road.

There is a separate cycle lane and route for cyclists on both sides of the n4 which is rarely used but the main route is totally unsuitable for cyclists as it involves a lot of high speed merging and lane changing with motorised transport of widely varying dimensions and profiles, trucks busses etc which may not see a cyclist in time to stop. Heaven help anybody in a small car ahead of a truck who is forced to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting a cyclist in these situations.

Its not rocket science. Be aware of cyclists as you know they are going to be there.

papu

godtabh wrote: »

Its not rocket science. Be aware of cyclists as you know they are going to be there.

Good stuff, how could they enforce this when they won't clear the cycle lanes of cars, trucks and vans. Most cycle lanes are little more than an afterthought

Chuchote

Only way is bollards.

Tenzor07

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I've seen some but very few cyclists using the the road in clontarf heading out to howth. This is can be annoying as the road is so narrow now and there is the 3 mill euro newly cycle lane beside it.
It probably wouldn't be as annoying if I could get figure out the reason why

It would generally be down to the fact that a bicyclist would have crossed at an earlier traffic light crossing from the cycle track to the other side of the road in order to make a turn into the road where they live or into there house, otherwise you have to stop in the cycle track and make a break for it across the road and dice with fast moving motor traffic further along...

magicbastarder

btw, i like to think that my several emails to the RSA pointing out the idiocy of mandatory cycle lanes, were instrumental in them reaching their decision.

seamus

doolox wrote: »

Heaven help anybody in a small car ahead of a truck who is forced to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting a cyclist in these situations.

I'm going to be that guy: If you have to slam on your brakes, then you've made a mistake. If you had to take sudden, emergency, evasive action, then you probably weren't paying enough attention.
Unless something falls out of the sky or darts suddenly out in front of you, there's not really any excuse for being surprised.
No, I'm not perfect, yes I have to slam on every now and again. Virtually always because I wasn't paying enough attention. It's really, really easy to *not* be surprised when you're driving.

Anyway, the issue with the N4/M50 westbound is that there is no cycle track for this traffic. If you're at Chapelizod cycling westbound, any semblance of a cycle lane ends and you just continue on the road.

tomasrojo

This is a bit of a surprise.

A mirror-image story was in the Times (Irish edition) the other day, but it's behind a registration wall, so I don't know the details. Something about the DTTAS telling the RSA not to release an unpublished report detailing cycling deaths following collisions because it could be interpreted as victim-blaming.

EDIT: There it is:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fdbd5c04-9597-11e7-801a-b2998cbbf2e8#
And a little Twitter thread there:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/906913563729711104

Chuchote

seamus wrote: »

I'm going to be that guy: If you have to slam on your brakes, then you've made a mistake.

So when someone flings open the car door in your face just as a bus is passing on your right…?

LeChienMefiant

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I've seen some but very few cyclists using the the road in clontarf heading out to howth. This is can be annoying as the road is so narrow now and there is the 3 mill euro newly cycle lane beside it.

From speaking with local residents, the cycle way is not suited to high speed traffic and this causes tension with pedestrians. I'm not personally familiar with this piece of infrastructure, but this is what I've been told. It's also probably not pleasant for other cycle way users, e.g. children, if there is high speed trafic on it.

magicbastarder

just as you'd argue that for motorists, a speed limit is not a target, i would certainly argue that the cycle way is an amenity, not an open invitation to open up the taps - if your use of it is causing discomfort for other users, it might be worth considering slowing down.

that said, i don't know how much of a problem that is.

07Lapierre

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

From speaking with local residents, the cycle way is not suited to high speed traffic and this causes tension with pedestrians. I'm not personally familiar with this piece of infrastructure, but this is what I've been told. It's also probably not pleasant for other cycle way users, e.g. children, if there is high speed trafic on it.

How do you define "High Speed"?

I am familiar with Clontarf Cycleway and I suspect ANY speed above walking speed (the walking speed of a child) would cause tension with the Parents.

magicbastarder

07Lapierre wrote: »

How do you define "High Speed"?

yeah, that's always going to be a problem. a commuting cyclist - who is not there for the view - motoring along at 25km/h is not racing, but many could consider that 'racing'. and commuting cyclists would definitely be part of the target audience for the cycle path.

07Lapierre

magicbastarder wrote: »

yeah, that's always going to be a problem. a commuting cyclist - who is not there for the view - motoring along at 25km/h is not racing, but many could consider that 'racing'. and commuting cyclists would definitely be part of the target audience for the cycle path.

The problem is 25 is not motoring. (unless your a Parent with a toddler on a tricycle beside you! to them that's "Warp speed!) and a lot of regular commuters are capable of much higher speeds, especially if there's a tailwind.

magicbastarder

ah yeah, i meant motoring in the 'plugging away at' rather the 'racing along at' sense. i thought it sounded like a reasonable average of what a commuting cyclist might achieve.

07Lapierre

I think people need to use a bit of common sense....

1. Parents with toddlers..ride defensively ( toddler in front, Adult behind)
2. commuters, slow down when approaching slower cyclists, pedestrians, kids etc.
3. Cyclists...Only go flat out, (When safe to do so).

crosstownk

Chuchote wrote: »

So when someone flings open the car door in your face just as a bus is passing on your right…?

Keep right and out of the door zone and that may hold the bus behind you.

LeChienMefiant

It seems perfectly appropriate to me that road bikes who don't want their pace restricted would use the road way and not a cycle path.

07Lapierre

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

It seems perfectly appropriate to me that road bikes who don't want their pace restricted would use the road way and not a cycle path.

Agree! But if We do, we have to put up with Motorists giving out about us "Holding up Traffic" when there's "a perfectly good cycle path" available!

LeChienMefiant

07Lapierre wrote: »

Agree! But if We do, we have to put up with Motorists giving out about us "Holding up Traffic" when there's "a perfectly good cycle path" available!

My post was in response to just such a comment.

PeadarCo

Sleeper12 wrote:

I've seen some but very few cyclists using the the road in clontarf heading out to howth. This is can be annoying as the road is so narrow now and there is the 3 mill euro newly cycle lane beside it.

The road is in alot of cases faster. Around clontarf the cycle lane is fairly narrow and you have a lot of pedestrian traffic. All of that keeps(or should keep) cycling speeds down.

If you are going from a to b and want to go the fastest route the road is usually far quicker for a good cyclist on a decent bike. The cycle lane is a leisure facility. Anyone who wants to do a decent clip on a bike should keep to the road.

Chuchote

Weepsie wrote: »

I don't want bollards if they restrict the opportunity to overtake which I they'd do.

Shoalers would join at love it too if they pushed on through at stops knowing bollards one side limit the chance to overtake safely.

They may be necessary as a temporary measure, though, to stop drivers thinking that cycle lanes, cycle tracks, cycleways, greenways and blueways are all oddly-named car parks.

07Lapierre

PeadarCo wrote: »

The road is in alot of cases faster. Around clontarf the cycle lane is fairly narrow and you have a lot of pedestrian traffic. All of that keeps(or should keep) cycling speeds down.

If you are going from a to b and want to go the fastest route the road is usually far quicker for a good cyclist on a decent bike. The cycle lane is a leisure facility. Anyone who wants to do a decent clip on a bike should keep to the road.

To be fair, I think any cyclist that chooses the Clontarf Road instead of the cycle path is being unreasonable. It's one of the best cycle paths out here and if they want to cycle on the road, there's always the Howth or Malahide roads. At St Ann's Park, the road is too narrow for cyclists and Motorists now. Fairs fair...use the cycle path.

Sleeper12

LeChienMefiant wrote:

From speaking with local residents, the cycle way is not suited to high speed traffic and this causes tension with pedestrians. I'm not personally familiar with this piece of infrastructure, but this is what I've been told. It's also probably not pleasant for other cycle way users, e.g. children, if there is high speed trafic on it.

The problem is that they have reduced the with of the road so much for the dedicated cycle lane that it's dangerous for cars to overtake. Too late now but maybe they should have left the road a little wider.

PeadarCo

07Lapierre wrote:

To be fair, I think any cyclist that chooses the Clontarf Road instead of the cycle path is being unreasonable. It's one of the best cycle paths out here and if they want to cycle on the road, there's always the Howth or Malahide roads. At St Ann's Park, the road is too narrow for cyclists and Motorists now. Fairs fair...use the cycle path.

I've used that road out training. The stretch by St Annes park is great because it has no traffic lights for 1km plus and has good surface. Its a good location to put the foot down on the way out to Howth. Speed wise its very easy/good training to get up into the mid 40's plus. That's not a safe speed on bike on the cycle lane where you have pedestrians in close proximity. The speed limit in that area is 60km/hr ( open to correction). So a cyclist doing those sorts of speeds is not slowing down traffic unduly.

07Lapierre

PeadarCo wrote: »

I've used that road out training. The stretch by St Annes park is great because it has no traffic lights for 1km plus and has good surface. Its a good location to put the foot down on the way out to Howth. Speed wise its very easy/good training to get up into the mid 40's plus. That's not a safe speed on bike on the cycle lane where you have pedestrians in close proximity. The speed limit in that area is 60km/hr ( open to correction). So a cyclist doing those sorts of speeds is not slowing down traffic unduly.

OK..Maybe I should have said:

"To be fair, I think any cyclist that chooses to cycle at <40kph along the Clontarf Road instead of the cycle path is being unreasonable"

jimmycrackcorm

doolox wrote:

There is a separate cycle lane and route for cyclists on both sides of the n4 which is rarely used but the main route is totally unsuitable for cyclists as it involves a lot of high speed merging and lane changing with motorised transport of widely varying dimensions and profiles, trucks busses etc which may not see a cyclist in time to stop. Heaven help anybody in a small car ahead of a truck who is forced to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting a cyclist in these situations.

I don't know what cycle lane there is that goes westbound over the m50. T there is one eastbound via Palmerston but is of no use the opposite way.

eeeee

07Lapierre wrote: »

To be fair, I think any cyclist that chooses the Clontarf Road instead of the cycle path is being unreasonable. It's one of the best cycle paths out here and if they want to cycle on the road, there's always the Howth or Malahide roads. At St Ann's Park, the road is too narrow for cyclists and Motorists now. Fairs fair...use the cycle path.

I use the road too training, very much depends on what your doing and how fast your going. I usually use it coming home :pac:

I'm actually not in favour of bike lanes, the clontarf one is the only decent one we have and that's not without its problems. I think the more you separate cyclists from the rest of traffic the more the rest of traffic doesn't have to deal with cyclists, the less the rest of traffic are safe in dealing with cyclists. I almost never use cycle lanes. They routinely leave me off in dangerous spots to left turning traffic at junctions, don't allow me to go straight on the road I'm traveling on (temple hill), are full of puncture causing shyte and debris, never cleaned, stop suddenly and randomly, pedestrians in them, etc etc etc.
I rarely use them and if I'm cycling somewhere new I've learnt to absolutely avoid them.

TL DR: The more we're all together the more we all learn how to get along basically.

Chuchote

Nee, the countries that have the most cycling, and the most success with cycling as a normal way of getting around - Netherlands, Denmark, Germany - do use separated cycle lanes. And when I first knew Paris it was a cyclist-free zone, but when separated lanes were put in, people started using them big time and now there's a lot of cycling there.

With no separated lanes you'll get intrepid youths, and a few intrepid maidens, cycling among the trucks and vans and cars, but with lanes you'll get the trepid, like me.

eeeee

I disagree, for the reasons I've laid out.
Every country is different, and those countries have a much bigger cycling culture than ours - even racing. We don't. It's not always possible to transplant things wholesale without the accompanying culture to go with it.

Bottom line no matter how much segregation there is you can't separate the two constantly, and both need to learn how to deal with each other safely. They need to interact more. The more people that cycle and the more visible cyclists are in general the safer it's gonna be for all. That's my opinion on it, ymmv.

magicbastarder

i have that debate in my head a lot. i'm happy in - and prefer - on road cycle lanes, in no small part because they're less likely to have debris in them, but then i'm confident on the bike and have also been driving for over 20 years so might understand traffic better than someone who wants to cycle but cannot drive. so i'm wary about placing myself in a position of trying to justify a 'what's good enough for me is good enough for you' approach.

07Lapierre

magicbastarder wrote: »

i have that debate in my head a lot. i'm happy in - and prefer - on road cycle lanes, in no small part because they're less likely to have debris in them, but then i'm confident on the bike and have also been driving for over 20 years so might understand traffic better than someone who wants to cycle but cannot drive. so i'm wary about placing myself in a position of trying to justify a 'what's good enough for me is good enough for you' approach.

So to summarize...

Kids cycle on the path.
Kids/Teenagers cycle on the Cycle Lane.
Inexperienced adults, cycle on the Cycle lane
Commuters cycle on the Cycle lane and/or Road, (Subject to experience/confidence and Cycle lane condition)

and Finally if you wear Lycra..Cycle on the Road but make sure you're doing at least 40kph!

Lumen

07Lapierre wrote: »

and Finally if you wear Lycra..Cycle on the Road but make sure you're doing at least 40kph!

I like the idea of a minimum speed limit for cyclists on such stretches, measured using average speed cameras and enforced by shaming.

You'd be given intermediate splits to help with the pacing and then at the Sutton lights a sign would broadcast your victory or shame for all to see.

I'm not quite sure how they'd manage the image recognition but it can't be that far beyond current tech.

magicbastarder

so we need to add gradient to that calculation!

PeadarCo

magicbastarder wrote:

i have that debate in my head a lot. i'm happy in - and prefer - on road cycle lanes, in no small part because they're less likely to have debris in them, but then i'm confident on the bike and have also been driving for over 20 years so might understand traffic better than someone who wants to cycle but cannot drive. so i'm wary about placing myself in a position of trying to justify a 'what's good enough for me is good enough for you' approach.

The problem is what's good for one cyclist may not suit another cyclist. The Clontarf cycle lane is a perfect example. It's a great piece of infrastructure but it won't suit all cyclists 100% of the time. More than any other form of transport there's a huge difference between individuals abilities,speeds and needs. Some people cycle and train alot and have good equipment. Another person might use a hack bike and there short commute might be the only exercise they do all week. What they will want from a cycle lane might differ radically for perfectly valid reasons on both sides.

magicbastarder

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not quite sure how they'd manage the image recognition but it can't be that far beyond current tech.

easy. mandatory registration plates for cyclists.

Chuchote

Lumen wrote: »

I like the idea of a minimum speed limit for cyclists on such stretches, measured using average speed cameras and enforced by shaming.

That's me out. I don't cycle very fast.

Lumen

magicbastarder wrote: »

easy. mandatory registration plates for cyclists.

FFFfffffff

Tenzor07

magicbastarder wrote: »

easy. mandatory registration plates for cyclists.

Tax and Insurance too eh? ....:pac:........:pac:.....

Lumen

Chuchote wrote: »

That's me out. I don't cycle very fast.

But they made a whole separate road for you!

monument

magicbastarder wrote: »

easy. mandatory registration plates for cyclists.

Facial recognition systems are getting so good that there'll be no need for registration plates. The public services card database already has a good chunk of photos of adults on file... just need to add the rest and the children too.

It'll be one way to really sell the national ID car... I mean sell the public services card to the plebs: We'll be able to fine cyclists automatically!

Carawaystick

Lumen wrote: »

But they made a whole separate road for you!

NO they DIDN'T!

There's loads of places where the cycle track ends and there's "shared space" with people walking.

That's not separate.

Cookie_Monster

Lumen wrote: »

I like the idea of a minimum speed limit for cyclists on such stretches, measured using average speed cameras and enforced by shaming.

You'd be given intermediate splits to help with the pacing and then at the Sutton lights a sign would broadcast your victory or shame for all to see.

I'm not quite sure how they'd manage the image recognition but it can't be that far beyond current tech.

you'd have to paint the road green then, so everyone knows the sprint section is coming up

Lumen

Carawaystick wrote: »

NO they DIDN'T!

There's loads of places where the cycle track ends and there's "shared space" with people walking.

That's not separate.

All roads except motorways are shared with pedestrians.

munsterbear

Anyway, the issue with the N4/M50 westbound is that there is no cycle track for this traffic. If you're at Chapelizod cycling westbound, any semblance of a cycle lane ends and you just continue on the road.[/QUOTE]

If you are cycling through Chapelizod going west, cycle past the hotel and at the bus turnaround point you cross the road onto the brand new tarmac cycle/footpath. From here you can cycle on the Old Lucan Road, basically between the garage and Stewards. This takes you to a bridge solely for cyclists and pedestrians over the M50, after there its your choice to cross bridge to Liffey Valley or go right onto road beside Murrays Pub, Kings Hospital etc towards the Hermitage Clinic. Again there is cycle lanes and there are a number of bridges to cross over if you need to get to Lucan.

I've no idea why cyclists prefer to take the more dangerous route by crossing the on/off ramps for the M50 especially given the speed of some of the vehicles and the sheer number that swerve across 2 or lanes at the last moment. And it also bypasses the two sets of lights on the Palmerstown bypass. Anything I've cycled into or out of town, this is the route I've taken and it is a lot more relaxing than trying to cross those other lanes.

rubadub

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I've seen some but very few cyclists using the the road in clontarf heading out to howth. This is can be annoying as the road is so narrow now and there is the 3 mill euro newly cycle lane beside it.

It probably wouldn't be as annoying if I could get figure out the reason why.

If you are genuinely interested then maybe get a load of a road bike and try cycling in it yourself. Being a roadbike/racer is important. I used to wonder why so many avoided lanes I cycle in -then I had a puncture and had to borrow a roadbike and it was a nightmare cycling on them, like driving across a field in a regular car.

I like to stick to cycle tracks as I am well aware of the sociopath lunatics out there doing "punishment passes" etc mainly taxis and buses. I resorted to getting a cross country mountain bike as its the only bike I think suitable for the "perfectly good cycle lanes" I keep hearing about. I had hybrid bikes but do not think they were up to it.

Imagine if lane 1 on motorways was similarly full of pedestrians, dogs on illegally long leads, glass, kerbs, potholes, stops/starts, driveway dips & rises etc. Very few would drive in that lane if it was like that, and stick to lane 2 & 3, and as people would have experience driving in such an intolerable lane there would be few wondering what the reason was why they avoid it.

Some are confused why cyclists are on the "dangerous" road rather than the "safe" cycle lane. If they actual went on it they might be wondering the exact opposite.

In another thread I was saying I am unsure if pedestrians are legally permitted to walk in cycle tracks, I think they can, I have never seen or heard of gardai cautioning anybody doing it. If they can legally do it I would like to see them called shared cycle/pedestrian lanes or similar -as this is what they already are (legal or not), then many motorists would not question it as much -just like if lane 1 on motorways was legally shared by pedestrians they would not be surprised to hear of people avoiding it.