New Junior Cycle

rossean

Now that the new Junior Cycle is up and running in quite a number of subjects, just wondering what people's thoughts are regarding this latest educational initiative. Do you see it as progress or a regressive step?

judeboy101

I know of 2 schools who have outsourced short courses, one to a financial Institute and another to a private Chinese language school. That's teaching hrs gone and the private sector delivering public education. We will replace the catholic church with big business as the patron of our schools.

r93kaey5p2izun

I remain extremely sceptical but willing to give it a chance. So far I am thoroughly unimpressed with the content of the Science specification, the cut in recommended allocation for Science (270 hours to 200), the loss of marks for coursework in Science (35% to 10%) and the horrendously poor quality of the Science inservice training.

My second subject Maths won't start until next year. The prospect of losing Foundation Level seems unthinkable so I'm extremely worried about the impact that will have.

evolving_doors

The cuts and ambiguity in the subjects are one thing.

But then on the other hand being told that wellbeing/mindfulness will be replacing it... great intentions and sounds good on radio shows, but frankly, it's a mess.

For me it all goes back to project maths. OK it has its faults, but there was a serious amount of in-services and curriculum design involved.
Now it's a case of an impotent NCCA telling teachers to go and 'unpack' it themselves.

It sounds as if 1st to 4th year is just one big TY experiment... which as we all know will be pronounced a great success... with a few teething issues.

rainbowtrout

evolving_doors wrote: »

Now it's a case of an impotent NCCA telling teachers to go and 'unpack' it themselves.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I fly into an uncontrollable Michael Douglas Falling Down style rage every time I hear that we have to unpack the new syllabus. I suspect more time was spent coming up with this buzzword than syllabus content for science.

Icsics

We've gone through some of it with the English last year, still don't know the best way to teach it & not expecting any great insights from the CPD. The texts list increased dramatically but not reflected in the shortened exam. By the way a PME in my school corrected in June...all scripts were sent to the UK to be scanned, corrected electronically (not entire papers) you might just get Part A...so much faster...ie what we thought all along - the entire debacle is a money saving exercise.

amacca

rainbowtrout wrote: »

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I fly into an uncontrollable Michael Douglas Falling Down style rage every time I hear that we have to unpack the new syllabus. I suspect more time was spent coming up with this buzzword than syllabus content for science.

I thought it could just be me when I seen that phrase today....I thought unpacking is something you do with your luggage or a delivery from an post... not a syllabus.

Then I thought why would you stuff learning intentions/outcomes etc into a space they need to be unpacked from in the first place? Why not let them breathe? Then I thought maybe there just isn't enough space with all the expanded descriptions of mindfulness and wellbeing and the interconnectedness of everything in the shiny new JC universe.

Then I thought...humans eh? always coming up with ways to justify their role in life especially the ones that feel there may not be much justification if any for what they do and are hoping the rest won't notice if they bamboozle them with obfuscation, fear, busy work/paperwork etc etc so they have less time to be engaging in distasteful things like independent thinking which leads to unwanted behaviours like asking pesky questions and raising legitimate concerns.

Mayberry

Although I hate the phrase "unpack" it. I believe that most existing teachers will by more than capable of doing this. It will be much harder for "new teachers" to take this on. The problem is they are trying to change they way we are taught, without changing how they will be examined.

Noveight

A colleague of mine told me that when correcting the English paper he was consistently told to award higher marks, often in cases where he could see no possible justification for doing so.

km79

Science is an absolute joke
I'm glad my oldest lad got to do the old JC

mtoutlemonde

Noveight wrote: »

A colleague of mine told me that when correcting the English paper he was consistently told to award higher marks, often in cases where he could see no possible justification for doing so.

Is he/she an experienced examiner/teacher? The advising examiner is only doing what they have been told. Also as this is the first year of English, it has to look successful.

Noveight

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Is he/she an experienced examiner/teacher? The advising examiner is only doing what they have been told. Also as this is the first year of English, it has to look successful.

Yep, many years of experience under his belt. I thought the same thing, better results = better system = money well spent :rolleyes:

mirrorwall14

The unpack drives me bloody mental. If we we'll have to unpack it why the HELL cant they just do it in the first place??!! It's literally making up hundreds of thousands of hours of duplicate work.

Instead teachers up and down the country are going to under pressure to make sure 'they get it right' when they unpack. Woe betide you if you get it wrong. Wait until there are phone call coming in from parents 'why haven't you taught x' and you are like 'I don't know if it's actually on the syllabus, my interpretation is it isnt'. You can just hear the tone now 'your INTERPRETATION??'!!

rainbowtrout

Noveight wrote: »

Yep, many years of experience under his belt. I thought the same thing, better results = better system = money well spent :rolleyes:

Same shite as project maths then. New JC will be declared a success on Wednesday.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Same shite as project maths then. New JC will be declared a success on Wednesday.

I listen to a good bit of discussion radio/tv... Pundits, radio jocks, politicians, former political education advisors, IBEC, parents, education journalists, former principals/teachers, authors... will always appear on panels to discuss the Irish education system. They should really have a few teachers who are actually teaching it.

thefasteriwalk

Icsics wrote: »

We've gone through some of it with the English last year, still don't know the best way to teach it & not expecting any great insights from the CPD. The texts list increased dramatically but not reflected in the shortened exam. By the way a PME in my school corrected in June...all scripts were sent to the UK to be scanned, corrected electronically (not entire papers) you might just get Part A...so much faster...ie what we thought all along - the entire debacle is a money saving exercise.

The company providing the marking software and platform are British, but the scripts are sent to and scanned by a different company, an Irish one based in Ballinasloe. All of this was thoroughly explained at a marking conference in May.

You do correct all sections of a paper but not all of one candidate's script consecutively. So towards the end I had a quota of 50 papers a day. I would correct 50x Section A Q2&3, then 50x Section A Q4,5&6, etc.

I have no idea how much money they're saving but I'd imagine that British company do not come cheap. Although I must say I loved online marking as a corrector. From day 1 of the conference to posting off my bits and bobs was 15 days. Huge difference from when I marked English paper scripts. Having said that, from students' perspective I definitely noticed some issues that I hope won't see anyone cheated of a rightful and deserved descriptor.

History Queen

Noveight wrote: »

A colleague of mine told me that when correcting the English paper he was consistently told to award higher marks, often in cases where he could see no possible justification for doing so.

I corrected higher level junior cert this year and my experience was the same as your colleague. I wasalways sceptical of the new course but after seeing how it is marked.... we are apparently aiming for mediocrity now

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Same shite as project maths then. New JC will be declared a success on Wednesday.

OMG you'll never guess what...
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/exams/new-junior-cert-english-results-show-more-pupils-with-good-grades-36127190.html

Also.... as predicted. IBEC speaks out on behalf of teachers.

...the new curriculum gave teachers space to be innovative and provide a more rounded education experience - and should also equip students with skills and appetite for continuous learning.

TUI said they'll be keeping an eye out 'to see if any adjustments need to be made in the future'.
ASTI said... we'll ...they weren't provided with an opportunity to comment this time.

evolving_doors

History Queen wrote: »

I corrected higher level junior cert this year and my experience was the same as your colleague. I wasalways sceptical of the new course but after seeing how it is marked.... we are apparently aiming for mediocrity now

Looks like you're right with grades being pushed to the middle.

History Queen

evolving_doors wrote: »

Looks like you're right with grades being pushed to the middle.

Have you ever really really wished you weren't right? It was inevitable though given the way the paper was marked.

Icsics

We had no Distinctions in our school, a few Higher Merits, most got Merits. So it looks like middle ground for all from now on!

thefasteriwalk

Icsics wrote: »

We had no Distinctions in our school, a few Higher Merits, most got Merits. So it looks like middle ground for all from now on!

Exact same. I've yet to even hear of anyone getting a Distinction.

Deise17

Same in my school. Disappointing.

Benicetomonty

No distinctions in my place. And none in my wife's school either.

Chancer3001

Apparently there's a new course in Irish that I'm.meant to be teaching.

Nobody knows what it is. Nobody knows what's different. Been no in service. Principal doesn't know what's new.

Marymidlands

One distinction in my school. Some excellent students devastated. Can't understand where they went wrong. I really couldn't say either. Many borderline higher level students got merits same as good students. Only one partially achieved.

chases0102

Similar story here. What's the appeal process with the new JC?

Mardy Bum

Marymidlands wrote: »

One distinction in my school. Some excellent students devastated. Can't understand where they went wrong. I really couldn't say either. Many borderline higher level students got merits same as good students. Only one partially achieved.

1.8% got a distinction at higher level. Down from over 8 % who got an A last year. Very few students get over 90 in English.

The government want everyone doing HL. It is all very transparent.

Marymidlands

chases0102 wrote: »

Similar story here. What's the appeal process with the new JC?

Must be same not sure i would bother.
Other subjects grades down suggesting reform/new junior cycle was badly needed.

History Queen

Marymidlands wrote: »

Must be same not sure i would bother.
Other subjects grades down suggesting reform/new junior cycle was badly needed.

It's all frighteningly transparent isn't it? And then these poor students will fail the leaving cert/perform poorly in it thus reinforcing the already started rumblings of a "need" for change.

Remember English, Irish and Maths were originally meant to be common level. Going by today's results the argument for common level will raise it's head again and we'll have a common level Junior Certificate before long.

Watering down of standards, diminishing any possible love a student could have for a subject and adding to a teacher's workload with pointless busy work such as CBA's and"unpacking" the curriculum.

Why do we even bother?

acequion

Jesus reading all of this I would dearly love to walk away from it all right now. It's monumentally depressing:mad::mad:

Why do we even bother indeed!

Postgrad10

It's become a joke of a "profession" all right.

Icsics

Marymidlands wrote: »

One distinction in my school. Some excellent students devastated. Can't understand where they went wrong. I really couldn't say either. Many borderline higher level students got merits same as good students. Only one partially achieved.

The merit bad is too wide, as we all know there's a huge difference between a student scoring 55% & one scoring 75%, but they come out with the same grade.

Noveight

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Apparently there's a new course in Irish that I'm.meant to be teaching.

Nobody knows what it is. Nobody knows what's different. Been no in service. Principal doesn't know what's new.

I'm in my last year of the PME and am a bit worried about qualifying next year because I don't know what's expected of me in regards to JC Irish, nor do any of the experienced teachers I've asked same could almost be said with English tbh.

MrJones1973

I had just about figured out the new Jc English exam when I lost my one class of it! I thought the following was a good idea -film studies and an oral presentation . The portfolio doesn't really work as many of our students are quite weak and thus writing about writing (how they edited their work )is beyond them.
The exam itself is a ton of manure. You could spend half a year doing a shakespearen play and not see it on the exam. At all . Whatever people said about the old jc english exam-you always had drama on it and the questions varied. No rote learning possible .The same can apply to novels -a major English exam without a question on a book ?? Welcome to JC English 2017

Icsics

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I had just about figured out the new Jc English exam when I lost my one class of it! I thought the following was a good idea -film studies and an oral presentation . The portfolio doesn't really work as many of our students are quite weak and thus writing about writing (how they edited their work )is beyond them.
The exam itself is a ton of manure. You could spend half a year doing a shakespearen play and not see it on the exam. At all . Whatever people said about the old jc english exam-you always had drama on it and the questions varied. No rote learning possible .The same can apply to novels -a major English exam without a question on a book ?? Welcome to JC English 2017

Completely agree Mr White. Bizarre that the prescribed texts lists was increased substantially yet the questions seem to have been completely dumbed down. It's a nightmare to teach & I feel myself that I'm doing 'bits' of everything but not a lot of anything. You could sit that exam without ever sitting in a class.

Marymidlands

"You could sit that exam without ever sitting in a class."
In fact I had a student who attended 10-15 days over 2nd and third year and she got a merit like the rest of class. Did the 10% at home and posted it to me.
Got same as rest who had full attendance. Soul destroying.

evolving_doors

If say 30 teachers in a school are freed up from 1 class a week for the JC planning, what happens those classes. Would it mean that there's 22 odd hours floating around to fill into the timetable?

MrJones1973

I would not despair in English totally-it's still Novels ,Plays and poems. Though we are all exam focused-it's the literature we love in the end of the day and I try to pass on that appreciation. If we get upset by things outside our control it can only lead to the blues!

Benicetomonty

Just wondering if anybody could clarify a couple of things re new JCT

1) Do 3rd yr English teachers who were not cooperating last year have to carry out the 2nd year CBA (oral presentation)?

2) At an ASTI steward training seminar in September, we were told that SLAR meetings should not take place outside of school hours, and that this was agreed upon by all stakeholders during negotiations. When queried as to the feasibility of this, we were told that that was management's problem. One suggestion was that they could take place during the house exams, perhaps after or before a supervision. Does anyone know if this has been discussed with management in any schools?

3) On the subject of house exams, a letter issued by TUI (under, presumably, the guidance of the JCT) points out that the CBAs were to replace the house exams of the affected year group (eg the summer exam for the 2nd year and the Christmas exam for 3rd year). This wasnt a recommendation, it was stated as an eventuality. Letter is attached below
Again, just wondering if these committments are being adhered to in schools in peoples' observations?

solerina

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Just wondering if anybody could clarify a couple of things re new JCT

1) Do 3rd yr English teachers who were not cooperating last year have to carry out the 2nd year CBA (oral presentation)?

2) At an ASTI steward training seminar in September, we were told that SLAR meetings should not take place outside of school hours, and that this was agreed upon by all stakeholders during negotiations. When queried as to the feasibility of this, we were told that that was management's problem. One suggestion was that they could take place during the house exams, perhaps after or before a supervision. Does anyone know if this has been discussed with management in any schools?

3) On the subject of house exams, a letter issued by TUI (under, presumably, the guidance of the JCT) points out that the CBAs were to replace the house exams of the affected year group (eg the summer exam for the 2nd year and the Christmas exam for 3rd year). This wasnt a recommendation, it was stated as an eventuality. Letter is attached below
Again, just wondering if these committments are being adhered to in schools in peoples' observations?

Surely the SLARs must take place outside of school hours considering JC teachers are getting 40 mins per week, I thought this could be 'banked' and used for the 2 hours SLAR meetings. Why give us the 40 mins and then give us time off inside the school day to do the SLARs ?

Benicetomonty

solerina wrote: »

Surely the SLARs must take place outside of school hours considering JC teachers are getting 40 mins per week, I thought this could be 'banked' and used for the 2 hours SLAR meetings. Why give us the 40 mins and then give us time off inside the school day to do the SLARs ?

Again, and I quote, management's problem. Wev been given professional time of 40mins a week. That's essentially ours to do with as we see fit, but, from my understanding, we have to put aside 2 hours per applicable subject of our year's quota to conduct the SLAR. Which is all fine, except for the assumption that this has to happen outside of school hours!

We were told by the ASTI deputy general sec that both unions and all other stakeholders had agreed that SLARs happen inside school hrs, with a provision of a few mins after if a meeting overruns. So they cannot schedule a 2hr SLAR outside of school time.

So how do we do them? Almost impossible to find 2hrs within a regular school week where everybody in a subject area is free so thats why the house exam idea was given to us. I cant think of any other way tbh.

r93kaey5p2izun

We (TUI) are being told that SLAR meetings will most likely be after school as it's unlikely everyone involved would be free for 2 hours at any other time. In my school some happened after school and some were fit in during house exams.

evolving_doors

Anabelle Chilly Tuber wrote: »

We (TUI) are being told that SLAR meetings will most likely be after school as it's unlikely everyone involved would be free for 2 hours at any other time. In my school some happened after school and some were fit in during house exams.

Told by whom?

Benicetomonty

Anabelle Chilly Tuber wrote: »

We (TUI) are being told that SLAR meetings will most likely be after school as it's unlikely everyone involved would be free for 2 hours at any other time. In my school some happened after school and some were fit in during house exams.

Obviously not a prob if every attendee is content to be there. But worth knowing that nobody can be compelled to go to one outside of school time.

Curious to know also, how many did you have? Am I right in saying there is only one SLAR meeting per applicable subject per year over 2nd and 3rd year?

r93kaey5p2izun

evolving_doors wrote: »

Told by whom?

The TUI area rep and it has been discussed at branch meetings.

You can't be given a time without consultation but you must do the meeting so you are expected to negotiate and agree a time. Management is not obliged to accommodate within the school day.

So far there have been 2 English SLARS (one after school and one during exams) and there's agreement about upcoming SLARS happening after school for 2nd Years this year. Not sure about 3rd Years yet.

evolving_doors

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Obviously not a prob if every attendee is content to be there. But worth knowing that nobody can be compelled to go to one outside of school time.

Curious to know also, how many did you have? Am I right in saying there is only one SLAR meeting per applicable subject per year over 2nd and 3rd year?

Wellll I disagree, if particular attendees are content to do it outside work hours then it sets a precedent. Others will have to follow suit.

Now is the time for union to step in and set folk straight. Simply send out a directive to be posted on the noticeboard. If that was the deal then it should be honoured.

man_no_plan

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Obviously not a prob if every attendee is content to be there. But worth knowing that nobody can be compelled to go to one outside of school time.

Curious to know also, how many did you have? Am I right in saying there is only one SLAR meeting per applicable subject per year over 2nd and 3rd year?

Read the circular I'd say. How people would expect to get a class off per week and then get another two hours off per meeting is beyond me.

CL 15/2017

The 40 minute professional time period provided within timetable is available to teachers on
the basis that they will use this time flexibly including bundling time periods and carrying
forward time to facilitate professional collaboration. Teachers may also use the time periods
for individual planning, feedback or reporting activities relating to Junior Cycle. In particular,
time periods will need to be bundled to facilitate Subject Learning and Assessment Review
(SLAR) meetings. Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the
relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on
teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of
the meeting. A SLAR meeting should take place in one two-hour session. This flexibility will
be required for and will generally be restricted to the organisation of SLAR meetings.

Benicetomonty

man_no_plan wrote: »

Read the circular I'd say. How people would expect to get a class off per week and then get another two hours off per meeting is beyond me.

CL 15/2017

The 40 minute professional time period provided within timetable is available to teachers on
the basis that they will use this time flexibly including bundling time periods and carrying
forward time to facilitate professional collaboration. Teachers may also use the time periods
for individual planning, feedback or reporting activities relating to Junior Cycle. In particular,
time periods will need to be bundled to facilitate Subject Learning and Assessment Review
(SLAR) meetings. Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the
relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on
teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of
the meeting. A SLAR meeting should take place in one two-hour session. This flexibility will
be required for and will generally be restricted to the organisation of SLAR meetings.

I read the circular. Already said that the provision for a meeting to overrun, or "run beyond normal school hours" exists.

"For some of the duration of the meeting" is not for all of its duration.

Benicetomonty

Anabelle Chilly Tuber wrote: »

The TUI area rep and it has been discussed at branch meetings.

You can't be given a time without consultation but you must do the meeting so you are expected to negotiate and agree a time. Management is not obliged to accommodate within the school day.

So far there have been 2 English SLARS (one after school and one during exams) and there's agreement about upcoming SLARS happening after school for 2nd Years this year. Not sure about 3rd Years yet.

1 SLAR meeting in 2nd year and 1 in 3rd year, to be conducted shortly after CBAs. No way should you be doing any more than that.

Benicetomonty

evolving_doors wrote: »

Wellll I disagree, if particular attendees are content to do it outside work hours then it sets a precedent. Others will have to follow suit.

Now is the time for union to step in and set folk straight. Simply send out a directive to be posted on the noticeboard. If that was the deal then it should be honoured.

What I mean is that if theyd rather do it then versus doing it in their free time during xmas or summer exams, then fair enough. Agree 100pc the unions need to clarify all this.