ASTI CEC recommends members rejects LR 2. 9th Sept 2017

Realbhoy

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0909/903469-asti-pay/
Hopefully this link works for me (technology!!) but I see the ASTI has recommended rejection of the new pay deal. No surprise really seeing as the other 2 unions also said no. I wonder will the narrow nature of the vote prove difficult as we head into the autumn and winter with this hanging over our heads?
Mods feel free to alter/merge/delete if it fits in with an existing thread



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<Just going to Alter the thread title on this. LR2 hasn't formally been rejected by an ASTI ballot just yet.
MOD>

judeboy101

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!

Icsics

Very close vote. I'd worry people are afraid after what happened last year & will vote to end the hassle. JCert is in, CP hrs are in & in our school the LPTs left ASTI & joined TUI!

mirrorwall14

When do ASTI vote? TUI voted immediately on return to school. I imagine our result will be our before their vote. If ours is no, and they are recommending no I can't see the members saying yes

judeboy101

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

When do ASTI vote? TUI voted immediately on return to school. I imagine our result will be our before their vote. If ours is no, and they are recommending no I can't see the members saying yes

The tui vote will be known before we vote so that will have a big influence. Personally i think it will be yes unless people have had a taste of useless cp hours and see how their year is filling up with pointless lost evenings of them.

evolving_doors

What's the bet that some other group will come in to steal the thunder and the focus will change. Remember gardai, luas ,firefighters, doctors, ambulance drivers? Then teachers will be to blame for the 'greedy public sector' that's going to threaten the recovery. Same old story.
FEMPI forever.
Edit:
Unless... The 3 stay united!

Sir123

Surely now is the time that ASTI and all other teacher unions stand up with a firm NO. Remember, it is not just LPTs that are at the crux of the CEC recommending a NO.

The 'temporary' pension levy that was introduced in 2009 is now being re-branded as a a permanent additional contribution, hence here to say. Why would you want that? All in all, I don't think the agreement is adequate for LPTs or any teacher and I will be voting NO instantly when ballot papers arrive.

ethical

....and remember you will be stuck on the same effin increment point on the salary scale for an eternity,which is another pay cut.The salary scale is lengthening every year by the depts. freezing during each and every dispute.

Sir123

ethical wrote: »

....and remember you will be stuck on the same effin increment point on the salary scale for an eternity,which is another pay cut.The salary scale is lengthening every year by the depts. freezing during each and every dispute.

My argument would be that the ASTI didn't have a chance to make a difference all by themselves last November. In fact, if we all unilaterally agree to reject this farce we can and will be much stronger together.

The ASTI gave in too easy last year. Two strike days, a lock out and then Perry talks. After a no vote, second time round, there were no more strikes to be seen, the problem.

The fact is we should be looking more closely at our sister union and see how they will vote this coming week. The INTO are waiting patiently to recommend strike action, however, alone, we do not make that much of a difference and I think we all know that now.

You may look at the agreement and see it as the lesser of two evils, but I don't. The more we continue to roll over, the worse our job becomes, financially, mentally and physically.

I would just urge you to think about this before you make your decision.

acequion

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

When do ASTI vote? TUI voted immediately on return to school. I imagine our result will be our before their vote. If ours is no, and they are recommending no I can't see the members saying yes

mirrorwall14, what are the vibes? Will TUI reject do you think and will it be a strong rejection?

mirrorwall14

acequion wrote: »

mirrorwall14, what are the vibes? Will TUI reject do you think and will it be a strong rejection?

My school are voting no, I think everyone did or at least no one mentioned a yes at all. TBH it's unusual asfaik for a union body to vote the opposite way to a recommendation (excepting where the top brass disagree with the recommendation and continue campaigning the opposite way)

feardeas

Don't intend to comment much at all on this. I was surprised at how narrow the vote at CEC was although I suppose it reflects the result of the ballot in February. As a former member I think the union have it right tactically to see how the TUI go.

INTO rejection was interesting but on a relatively low turn out. The interview with Joanne Irwin was interesting on Morning Ireland last week in looking for a time scale. For the life of me I don't understand why that wasn't part of this deal. Obviously once SIPTU and Impact had out sourcing off the table they were happy. Although the thoughts of a private firm doing specialised cleaning in health care settings was laughable. Also I feel that perhaps part of that would be us pre 2011 entrants foregoing some increases down the road. In fact that could be the case from the next one on given that we will be out of FEMPI.

As for pension levy here to stay I'd say and in fairness our pension, pre 2013, are good. However with the levy and our contribution and A PRSI for post 94 we do pay for them so Ed Walsh and Co can take a hike. Gosh for a moderate I can get irate at times.

As I said I'm not going to be commenting more, good luck for the year ahead especially the few I sparred with last year.

noodler

Sir123 wrote: »

Surely now is the time that ASTI and all other teacher unions stand up with a firm NO. Remember, it is not just LPTs that are at the crux of the CEC recommending a NO.

The 'temporary' pension levy that was introduced in 2009 is now being re-branded as a a permanent additional contribution, hence here to say. Why would you want that? All in all, I don't think the agreement is adequate for LPTs or any teacher and I will be voting NO instantly when ballot papers arrive.

Pension contribution is only fair and benefits newer members.

acequion

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

My school are voting no, I think everyone did or at least no one mentioned a yes at all. TBH it's unusual asfaik for a union body to vote the opposite way to a recommendation (excepting where the top brass disagree with the recommendation and continue campaigning the opposite way)

As was the case in ASTI with the second vote on the HRA. Thankfully that sort of thing doesn't happen these days with Kieran Christie at the helm.

judeboy101 wrote: »

The tui vote will be known before we vote so that will have a big influence. Personally i think it will be yes unless people have had a taste of useless cp hours and see how their year is filling up with pointless lost evenings of them.

I don't think we'll be getting rid of CP hours and no point in people voting No thinking as such.At CEC the GS gave a good explanation of the difference between "rejecting" and "repudiating" an agreement. It seems there are PS unions who haven't actually signed up to agreements but are still protected by them. I'd love to know who these unions are if anyone happens to know? To "reject" is simply to say No. To "repudiate" is to refuse to carry out the additional duties of the agreement such as we did last year when we refused to do CP hours and hence drew FEMPI upon ourselves. Therefore simply rejecting LRA2 won't have any consequences if we keep on with CP and JC reform. However obviously we'd need to do more than just reject, but that will depend on the joint strategy of all three unions together.

Icsics wrote: »

Very close vote. I'd worry people are afraid after what happened last year & will vote to end the hassle. JCert is in, CP hrs are in & in our school the LPTs left ASTI & joined TUI!

Almost half the members of CEC are pro agreements. Some are so determined they can successfully pull off a special convention to get what they want as we've recently seen. Their opposition to the majority and the influence they wield over wavering members is no small stumbling block.

feardeas wrote: »

As for pension levy here to stay I'd say and in fairness our pension, pre 2013, are good.

As I said I'm not going to be commenting more, good luck for the year ahead especially the few I sparred with last year.

Good to hear from you feardeas,we're all collegues at the end of the day and every good wish to you as well. However, what you say about the pension isn't fully accurate. Granted as it is at the moment it's good, but it seems that sinister plans are in the pipeline and there's a lot of speculation that it will be considerably reduced for the pre 2013 people still in the job after 2019. So that too is very worrying

acequion

Sir123 wrote: »

My argument would be that the ASTI didn't have a chance to make a different all by themselves last November. In fact, if we all unilaterally agree to reject this farce we can and will be much stronger together.

The ASTI gave in too easy last year. Two strike days, a lock out and then Perry talks. After a no vote, second time round, there were no more strikes to be seen, the problem.

The fact is we should be looking more closely at our sister union and see how they will vote this coming week. The INTO are waiting patiently to recommend strike action, however, alone, we do not make that much of a difference and I think we all know that now.

You may look at the agreement and see it as the lesser of two evils, but I don't. The more we continue to roll over, the worse our job becomes, financially, mentally and physically.

I would just urge you to think about this before you make your decision.

Completely agree with every single word of this post. Mistakes have been made, people are weary, frustrated and very pessimistic and not without good reason. But there is a very real chance of ending pay parity if the three unions stick together. But they absolutely must put differences and distrust aside and do just that. And I think they will because at last TUI and INTO have their own fightback groups such as TUI grassroots and Glor and such groups have been instrumental in getting a fighting spirit back into their members and in keeping close tabs on the leaders.

We may not be able to get rid of the straitjacket agreements in the near future but if we can force a reversal of the two tier pay structure,it will be a big victory for the Irish teaching profession.

It's achievable and morally unquestionable, even the Junior education minister has conceded as such, so in order to achieve this,please vote NO.

evolving_doors

ethical wrote: »

....and remember you will be stuck on the same effin increment point on the salary scale for an eternity,which is another pay cut.The salary scale is lengthening every year by the depts. freezing during each and every dispute.

It won't be long before 'performance related pay' will be sold as a great new concession to compensate for the loss of increments.
.... and before long the media will change its name to 'teacher bonuses'

Sir123

acequion wrote: »

As was the case in ASTI with the second vote on the HRA. Thankfully that sort of thing doesn't happen these days with Kieran Christie at the helm.



I don't think we'll be getting rid of CP hours and no point in people voting No thinking as such.At CEC the GS gave a good explanation of the difference between "rejecting" and "repudiating" an agreement. It seems there are PS unions who haven't actually signed up to agreements but are still protected by them. I'd love to know who these unions are if anyone happens to know? To "reject" is simply to say No. To "repudiate" is to refuse to carry out the additional duties of the agreement such as we did last year when we refused to do CP hours and hence drew FEMPI upon ourselves. Therefore simply rejecting LRA2 won't have any consequences if we keep on with CP and JC reform. However obviously we'd need to do more than just reject, but that will depend on the joint strategy of all three unions together.



Almost half the members of CEC are pro agreements. Some are so determined they can successfully pull off a special convention to get what they want as we've recently seen. Their opposition to the majority and the influence they wield over wavering members is no small stumbling block.



Good to hear from you feardeas,we're all collegues at the end of the day and every good wish to you as well. However, what you say about the pension isn't fully accurate. Granted as it is at the moment it's good, but it seems that sinister plans are in the pipeline and there's a lot of speculation that it will be considerably reduced for the pre 2013 people still in the job after 2019. So that too is very worrying

That makes sense acequion. If we reject this agreement we should not be sanctioned with FEMPI. However, hypotethically and hopefully, if we voted to reject, continued to do CP hours and JC, but called a strike, I wonder would striking repudiate the agreement. Interesting times lie ahead for all the teacher unions.

r93kaey5p2izun

My school is TUI and everyone has spoken of voting no. The INTO vote has offered encouragement but my school has always voted no regardless.

The feeling is it's now or never to end pay inequality and that it would be very stupid to accept this deal. It won't be long until new entrants tip the balance of membership and if the lower scale remains they will be offered parity in return for cutting the old pension. They will come for the old pensions at some stage anyway but it will be passed without much bother if this deal is accepted.

acequion

Sir123 wrote: »

That makes sense acequion. If we reject this agreement we should not be sanctioned with FEMPI. However, hypotethically and hopefully, if we voted to reject, continued to do CP hours and JC, but called a strike, I wonder would striking repudiate the agreement. Interesting times lie ahead for all the teacher unions.

Take a look at fightback facebook page Sir 123. They have two very good posts since yesterday. They say that a one day strike would not be a repudiation as we're still doing the extras. It makes sense. While the JC reform was not meant to be bundled in with agreements, the Govt, in their constant moving of goalposts, decided at some point that it was. Therefore, by refusing to do that and CP we were clearly repudiating. So perhaps we just need to be more clever and imaginative in our approach. That's not to say they won't move the goal posts again though!

acequion

I would also feel that the pre 2013 group should not concede one cent of future pay restoration or pension in return for pay parity. That's robbing Peter to pay Paul. We need the common basic scale returned as a matter of urgency and with no strings attached. The future of education in this country depends on it.

dory

So to be clear - if we (ASTI) vote no for this deal, will all the recent things be kept anyway? Going along with JC, CP hours, €1000 pay rise, increment etc? I only ask as I will be asked in school and would like to know. Can't find answers online.

sitstill

dory wrote: »

So to be clear - if we (ASTI) vote no for this deal, will all the recent things be kept anyway? Going along with JC, CP hours, €1000 pay rise, increment etc? I only ask as I will be asked in school and would like to know. Can't find answers online.

Also looking to know this. Also the 40 mins professional time?

ccazza

dory wrote: »

So to be clear - if we (ASTI) vote no for this deal, will all the recent things be kept anyway? Going along with JC, CP hours, €1000 pay rise, increment etc? I only ask as I will be asked in school and would like to know. Can't find answers online.

It seems if we do not repudiate the LR1 we will keep these but if we withdraw from doing CP hours or cooperating with the new JC we will lose all.

acequion

dory wrote: »

So to be clear - if we (ASTI) vote no for this deal, will all the recent things be kept anyway? Going along with JC, CP hours, €1000 pay rise, increment etc? I only ask as I will be asked in school and would like to know. Can't find answers online.

I think that's the case but a committee has been formed of very good people whose job will be to provide crystal clear answers to all questions and to get the facts out there. This will be available very soon.

feardeas

acequion wrote:

Good to hear from you feardeas,we're all collegues at the end of the day and every good wish to you as well. However, what you say about the pension isn't fully accurate. Granted as it is at the moment it's good, but it seems that sinister plans are in the pipeline and there's a lot of speculation that it will be considerably reduced for the pre 2013 people still in the job after 2019. So that too is very worrying

That would be worrying indeed, I think they will always have it on the table. As for acting that will depend on the government of the day. Good point about rejection versus repudiation. If the three could come up with something that would disrupt without repudiation then that might be the way to go. Maybe refuse to co operate with the droichead nonsense.

judeboy101

ccazza wrote: »

It seems if we do not repudiate the LR1 we will keep these but if we withdraw from doing CP hours or cooperating with the new JC we will lose all.

In June we voted to suspend, pending a vote. When do we vote to overturn that suspension?

RealJohn

Icsics wrote: »

Very close vote. I'd worry people are afraid after what happened last year & will vote to end the hassle. JCert is in, CP hrs are in & in our school the LPTs left ASTI & joined TUI!

Haven't read the whole thread yet and I'm TUI rather than ASTI but I'm pretty much at point that I'm as annoyed at the unions as I am at the government. It's the same every time: government comes with a proposal, we reject it, we perform some token industrial action, the government comes back with an almost identical proposal which the union now recommends we accept, we vote it in and all that's happened is that the union has wasted our money on a second vote and we're possibly down a day's pay and a load of goodwill from parents and the general public if we've gone on strike.

I've always said that I'm willing to sacrifice to affect change, even if that change doesn't necessarily benefit me personally but I just don't feel like we're making enough progress to justify me wasting my money.

evolving_doors

I suppose you have to ask what's the alternative cost of not having any union representation RJ.

This time is different though, 3 unions might just all take the same position.
It should be interesting to see what ways the 'divide and conquer' strategy will play out.

acequion

feardeas wrote: »

That would be worrying indeed, I think they will always have it on the table. As for acting that will depend on the government of the day. Good point about rejection versus repudiation. If the three could come up with something that would disrupt without repudiation then that might be the way to go. Maybe refuse to co operate with the droichead nonsense.

Well if such an appalling scenario were to come to pass I would hope that the entire trade union movement would refuse to accept it. And you're right that it would depend on the Govt of the day and once it's not the blueshirts we might be ok.

I think cutting the pension would be the worst of all the blows, even worse than cutting the post 2013 pay. Most people nowadays can expect to live many years after retirement and a decent pension is really important. You're also dealing with a very vulnerable cohort here as pensioners are generally too old to find ways to supplement their income. I would hope that once we achieve pay parity we will continue the campaign to get pension parity for all.

RealJohn

evolving_doors wrote: »

I suppose you have to ask what's the alternative cost of not having any union representation RJ.

This time is different though, 3 unions might just all take the same position.
It should be interesting to see what ways the 'divide and conquer' strategy will play out.

But sure the three unions have agreed in the past initially only for the government to offer one or two groups some token, virtually meaningless concession and succeed in dividing us again.

I think I'll vote no and no. No to the proposed 'agreement' but also no to industrial action. It's a waste of effort and potentially money.

SligoBrewer

RealJohn wrote: »

But sure the three unions have agreed in the past initially only for the government to offer one or two groups some token, virtually meaningless concession and succeed in dividing us again.

I think I'll vote no and no. No to the proposed 'agreement' but also no to industrial action. It's a waste of effort and potentially money.

It could gain €180k for me and thousands of others.

judeboy101

massive no vote by TUI

81% to 19%

acequion

Great news, fair play to them!! ASTI can't not reject it now after those two huge No's.

r93kaey5p2izun

It's actually 87% to 13% to reject the agreement and 81% to 19% for industrial action. But turnout only 52%.

judeboy101

Leila Worried Thief wrote: »

It's actually 87% to 13% to reject the agreement and 81% to 19% for industrial action. But turnout only 52%.

Only 52% means 45% of all tui members are against, that's pretty strong considering the split tween 3rd and 2nd level.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

Great news, fair play to them!! ASTI can't not reject it now after those two huge No's.

Bruton out of the traps

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0914/904665-pay-deal/

acequion

Interesting times ahead.

dory

It's all very confusing.

If we reject it it'll still be passed by the majority of unions...so we'll just be outside the pay deal again. I don't see the government's incentive to engage with us. They could leave the three unions outside the deal and they'd be happy out. No pay rise for us. Looks like industrial action is imminent.

judeboy101

dory wrote: »

It's all very confusing.

If we reject it it'll still be passed by the majority of unions...so we'll just be outside the pay deal again. I don't see the government's incentive to engage with us. They could leave the three unions outside the deal and they'd be happy out. No pay rise for us. Looks like industrial action is imminent.

All 3 unions agree to a 4 day week until further notice, its a small enough hit to pocket considering its taxed at marginal rate, but the cost to exchequer for having primary parents having to find childcare for one extra day would focus minds.

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

All 3 unions agree to a 4 day week until further notice, its a small enough hit to pocket considering its taxed at marginal rate, but the cost to exchequer for having primary parents having to find childcare for one extra day would focus minds.

Completely agree. If the three unions can stick it out together and go for the jugglar there's bound to be a result. This is the best chance we've had in years, with all three on the same wavelength. We just can't mess this one up!

You'll get the usual threats form bully boy Bruton and co. And they are bad bastards capable of anything as we well know, but no way can they afford to ignore the entire 1st and 2nd level teaching body.

What a spineless bunch the other unions though! I was very confident starting out that this deal would get rejected like CP1 way back at the start. Then we were in the midst of recession yet people had balls. Now we're in growth and off they all go like simpering lambs to the slaughter.

Any hope the nurses might reject? They have every reason to be as pyssed off by the whole thing as we teachers are. Even more so so it beggars belief that they'll go for this though that's what Doran wants.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

Completely agree. If the three unions can stick it out together and go for the jugglar there's bound to be a result. This is the best chance we've had in years, with all three on the same wavelength. We just can't mess this one up!

You'll get the usual threats form bully boy Bruton and co. And they are bad bastards capable of anything as we well know, but no way can they afford to ignore the entire 1st and 2nd level teaching body.

What a spineless bunch the other unions though! I was very confident starting out that this deal would get rejected like CP1 way back at the start. Then we were in the midst of recession yet people had balls. Now we're in growth and off they all go like simpering lambs to the slaughter.

Any hope the nurses might reject? They have every reason to be as pyssed off by the whole thing as we teachers are. Even more so so it beggars belief that they'll go for this though that's what Doran wants.

Florence nightingale effect, nurses won't do anything to ruin it. Expect big fat yes.

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

All 3 unions agree to a 4 day week until further notice, its a small enough hit to pocket considering its taxed at marginal rate, but the cost to exchequer for having primary parents having to find childcare for one extra day would focus minds.

There's no need for any of that yet. We're covered under LRA for the other pay elements and are still cooperating with all of it.

I think we need to get past the CP hours and focus on the differential pay scale and the punitive elements for anyone with a bit of service and a post who will get creased by this pension thing. Leo is all mouth about incentivising work and aspiration. God forbid anyone would aspire to the top of the payscale or a POR or even worse Management!!

If they're afraid of pay equalisation then we should go after a,training allowance or a scheme to fund the PME with the condition that you must teach for x years or have to pay or something.

Last part is rambling but we need to get our fingers out and come up with solutions.

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

There's no need for any of that yet. We're covered under LRA for the other pay elements and are still cooperating with all of it.

I think we need to get past the CP hours and focus on the differential pay scale and the punitive elements for anyone with a bit of service and a post who will get creased by this pension thing. Leo is all mouth about incentivising work and aspiration. God forbid anyone would aspire to the top of the payscale or a POR or even worse Management!!

If they're afraid of pay equalisation then we should go after a,training allowance or a scheme to fund the PME with the condition that you must teach for x years or have to pay or something.

Last part is rambling but we need to get our fingers out and come up with solutions.

No we have to get pay parity man-no -plan. The two tier scale is demeaning to the profession so we have to get things back to default. I agree that we're probably screwed with CP for the foreseeable future so that's why I think we should single mindedly go after this. One of the big mistakes of the ASTI campaign last year and many of you guys in TUI would have cautioned us, was fighting too many wars at once.

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

No we have to get pay parity man-no -plan. The two tier scale is demeaning to the profession so we have to get things back to default. I agree that we're probably screwed with CP for the foreseeable future so that's why I think we should single mindedly go after this. One of the big mistakes of the ASTI campaign last year and many of you guys in TUI would have cautioned us, was fighting too many wars at once.

I was one of them! But we know they will say that if they agree to deal with teacher pay then they will gave to deal with the entire PS.

I'm only saying that, if it cones to it, we should possibly have an alternative that has the same net effect that is unique to teachers. Teachers, after all, are the only group that require a masters qualification for entry.

As I said, I was only rambling and that idea isn't fully fleshed out and maybe would never work. But we know what the govt response will be so we should be ready for it.

I wholeheartedly agree that pay equalisation should be the number one priority. It's the reason it was rejected by TUI, INTO and, soon hopefully, ASTI.

After that we are into a campaign of some sort that has to inflict damage but we need to be seen to be looking for resolution rather than strikes off the bat for the sake of it.

For once, at least, we are all on the same page here! Long may it continue.

dory

I'm all for pay parity but I feel the PME may have messed that up for us. Now every new entrant will have a masters so all the government see are dollar signs.

Alqua

School resources would have to be cut if teachers want equal pay for equal work - Minister

...Wow

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

I was one of them! But we know they will say that if they agree to deal with teacher pay then they will have to deal with the entire PS...[].

They didn't say that for Gardai concessions though.

MrJones1973

At the moment Im voting Yes to LR2. I hope TUI go out and get screwed money wise. Particularly the 1000 ASTI members who jumped ship. ASTI wont strike so why bother? Nor will the TUI from what I hear. Grand old Duke of Yprk etc etc

Now if the ASTI puts up a credible plan to members perhaps I might vote No but I dont see that happening after the events last year.

A 2-3 week strike is only thing Gov would be scared off. Particularly Primary schools but I dont see that happening either.
Call me a cynical old fool or a realist. Take your pick.

LeinsterDub

evolving_doors wrote: »

They didn't say that for Gardai concessions though.

The country can function without teachers it can't without Gardaí

LeinsterDub

Alqua wrote: »

School resources would have to be cut if teachers want equal pay for equal work - Minister

...Wow

Why is parity so important now when unions voted to accept the lack of it in 2011?

evolving_doors

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The country can function without teachers it can't without Gardaí

So wholl be doing your babysitting if the teachers are on strike?