Phonewatch contract

SteM

Was looking through the Phonewatch renewal contract recently. The letter says if we don't contact them within 30 days they'll debit my account and that will automatically tie us to another 12 month contract.

I don't know of any other service provider that does that. Seems shady to say the least. Anyone else come across this before or had an issue with it?

KoolKid

It's called inertia selling and it's illegal in Ireland .

SteM

I've never heard of that term before. That's interesting thanks. I was wondering why I never noticed other service providers do it.

KoolKid

It was on Joe Duffy a while back and he called them out on it.
They also bypass parts of the EN50131 standards by putting it in their T & C s.

amadablam

Anyone know what to do about this?

Ive been told that my contract was auto renewed even though in three years, i have never received a bill

KoolKid wrote: »

It's called inertia selling and it's illegal in Ireland .

They (Phonewatch)are saying its perfectly legal

KoolKid

Argue them on it. It's called inertia selling and it's illegal in Ireland.

amadablam

KoolKid wrote: »

Argue them on it. It's called inertia selling and it's illegal in Ireland.

Jsut off the phoen and expecting a call back.

apparently they wrote to me and I have never received it

They are saying that they have the right to renew if I didnt cancel and i am locked into contract again???

ED E

Wait for the callback then proceed to have your bank block them.

Sector (Phonewatch) are just a lovely company, just like Nigerian Prince Inheritance Co.

KoolKid

No
It's inertia selling. It's illegal in Ireland. If that clause is in your contract it's illegal.
Google it and you will get plenty of details to quote at them.

amadablam

ED E wrote: »

Wait for the callback then proceed to have your bank block them.

Sector (Phonewatch) are just a lovely company, just like Nigerian Prince Inheritance Co.

She told me that if I obstruct them receiving payment they will expect full payment until May of next year at which time I have the option to cancel the contract that I never renewed

Will it affect my credit rating if I block the debit?

SteM

I'm just off the phone with them. Argued every which way, the guy in retentions just kept telling me that if it was illegal then Phonewatch wouldn't do it. I'm not going to get a call back off them but was told if I cancelled my DD it would be up to the company as to whether I will be pursued for the full amount of my contract.

A really frustrating, bizarre 25 minute conversation I have to say. He refused to look at this page

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1995/act/24/section/138/enacted/en/html

but was happy to quote me stuff from the citizensinformation.ie website that had nothing to do with my complaint.

kub

So in their eyes they are perfectly entitled to take your money for a service you have not received yet.

I wonder what a judge in a court room would make of that.

amadablam

well after a very long email and a phone call, I have now been referred to get a follow up email response to my request for a response in writing.

In 3 years as a customer, I have never received a bill. I have lots of seasonal emails and marketing and they acknowledge they have never emailed me a bill nor notification.

They also admitted that they sent me emails in April, June and July (all marketing nonsense I never requested) and the only email they didn't send was my renewal as there was a problem with the system.

On 21-12-2016 I received an email to tell me that I would be receiving my renewal and all subsequent bills by email, which never happened.

apparently, they feel that I am bound to honor a notification to renew that I never received.

I have asked for a response to this in writing. and to reference the fact that by their own admission they have not been sending emails to this effect despite notifying customers that they would receive this in email as part of their paperless billing.

The call ended from their side to tell me that I am legally bound and liable for the contract in full and ended from my side by saying that I cannot be bound by something that I have not received and that by your own admission, was notified that I would receive it in email

They are a disaster to deal with but I have been guaranteed a written response and I have made it quite clear that as of now the only thing I will accept is that I am only getting notification to renew after this call via the method I requested.

This is definitely going to go all the way with them I would imagine and Im quite happy to take it as far as needed.

Ill update you if I get anywhere and best of luck with them yourself.

KoolKid

SteM wrote: »

I'm just off the phone with them. Argued every which way, the guy in retentions just kept telling me that if it was illegal then Phonewatch wouldn't do it. I'm not going to get a call back off them but was told if I cancelled my DD it would be up to the company as to whether I will be pursued for the full amount of my contract.

A really frustrating, bizarre 25 minute conversation I have to say. He refused to look at this page

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1995/act/24/section/138/enacted/en/html

.

That seems very clear cut to me.
They wont go all the way with it. If they lost that in court it sets a precedent I'd imagine.

mugsymugsy

It would be great if it did go to court.

I would only conduct any correspondence in writing going forward with them.

SteM

mugsymugsy wrote: »

I would only conduct any correspondence in writing going forward with them.

Yeah, he told me on the phone that he would cancel the contract but the company could come after me for a few he balance of my contract. I told him not to that I would email them with the cancelation instruction and cancel me dd after 30 days. Would prefer the whole thing to be done by email at this stage.

KoolKid

Is he putting in writing their inertia selling claus?:rolleyes:

amadablam

KoolKid wrote: »

Is he putting in writing their inertia selling claus?:rolleyes:

I hope the OP doesn't mind me adding to this thread. If he does, please just branch out to a new thread but I didn't want to start a new one when we are having the same issue in many respects.

I had two more calls from them today, one which denies the inertia selling and gave the example of a magazine being left on your doorstep and if it's not collected...... Etc.

My response was to ask that how was sending an email that they had no record of and taking my lack of response as acceptance to renew, purely because I continued to make payment, was any difference? No response

I also asked him why they were so hung up on the inertia selling comment and that he was missing the issue I had.

Possibly they are sensitive souls about this term

They can't find an email from themselves to me about their renewal as I never received it. They can see all other emails but that one, the one they advised about on the 22-12-16 on paperless billing..... No sign of that on their side

Got offered a reduced contract for the next year instead. He said he would write to me and offer a new contract in lieu of the email I never received and apologised and said it would be from today forward and in replacement of the email I never received.

He also said I signed for a 12 month contract three years ago and it automatically renews if, within 30 days of the email I never received, I don't cancel payment but if they take payment, it is acceptance of the new contract on my part as set out in the email that I never received.


I refused and continued to ask for the email they sent me and questioning the legality of their actions.

He wrote to me offering the reduced and renewed contract and apologies for the communication issues.

My reply was short and courteous but asked for the proposed date of the offer and to acknowledge it was in lieu of the email I never received and also that I had my entitlement of a 14-30 day cooling off period.

He replied that it was being sent to a supervisor and then rang me to try and argue everything all over again while admitting everything as well. They still can't find a record of sending me the email and apparently, what his colleague said yesterday, was denied now.

I asked for everything in writing.

Also requested a copy of the data they hold on me under the data protection act as I want to see what they will give me back. It will be worth the 6.35 max fee they can charge to see what I get back.

I gave a chronological list of the email I have received from them and they acknowledge them all but can't find the one where they inform me of my renewal.

Anyway, I hope the OP is having more success. I am handing it over to my solicitor altogether and I am going to write my story into a few radio stations and get their advice on it.

Ive told pw that I was going to go and get this sorted and that they haven't a leg to stand on.

I also asked him why they are so aggressively, trying to hold onto me as a customer against my wishes after my contract had expired.

He said they weren't aggressive.......

Juwwi

The stories here are identical to the complaints on the Joe Duffy show a while back , very poor practice from Phone Watch .

kub

robbie1977 wrote:

The stories here are identical to the complaints on the Joe Duffy show a while back , very poor practice from Phone Watch .

Yet they still have not learnt.

bigpoppa

I cancelled recently and got a final bill on a wed which I paid. On the Friday I got a letter saying balance overdue and that it was being passed to a collection agency. I mailed them and got an apology but they are shabby af

KoolKid

@ amadablam
Thanks for detailing your experience. I'm sure all here would be very interested in any updates to this down the line.

amadablam

KoolKid wrote: »

@ amadablam
Thanks for detailing your experience. I'm sure all here would be very interested in any updates to this down the line.

Well

I received a final call. The email that I have never received has turned up on their system but I cant have it until later

At the end of the conversation I was informed that he didnt like my tone and would like to remind me that all calls were recorded and I said that at no point in the conversation did he inform me that my call was recorded - He called me and launched into a chat.

He said that 'I should know that all call are recorded when being called by a call centre representative'

I have been told that I will be liable for breach of contract and that they will send a debt collection agency after me.

When I said that under my data protection request, I would be making sure that I received all transcripts, he didnt comment. I also pointed out that in the event of calls being recorded that it for their purpose of trianing and quality control, neither of which this issue refers to.

Said he has more than tried to facilitate me and that I am locked into the remained of the contract that I never knew I was in and that I accepted this by making payment.

He also compounded the fact that the did not inertia sell, a term that he said was used in a biased interview on Joe Duffy with no one from their side.

Unfortunately for me, I am now going to have to deal with this as he has told me that they will get their payment for the remaining contract from me and he is quite sure of this.

So folks, just realize, that even though I have never received the notification and I genuinely didnt, they feel that I have and will stick to it because I accepted their terms and conditions by making payment.

Despite being me being able to demonstrate that I havent received it in email, they now say it has been sent but it will take a day to get it to me. I have requested, in writing that it be sent with full internet headers attached

He is quite confident that should i go to court with this, which I will, that they will win their side.

I have reiterated that as far as I am concerned, since its my first time receiving it, I will take it that my 30 days to cancel beginning upon receipt

He told me that this wont happen as its from when it was originally sent to me, despite never having received it.

At this point I asked to terminate the conversation at my request and send me the bill that was sent by email. It was also at this point that I was informed that my call was being recorded, which I hadnt been made aware of until that point.

I have just received an email to say that I am committed to 12 months by making my payment but no copy of the email that was sent.

If anyone could PM me with advice, I would appreciate it.

SteM

I think the advice on this thread has been consistent. Cancel your account, cancel your Direct Debt. They'll contact you asking for payment in full and threathen with a collection agency. You should ignore them.

I was speaking to a company called Home Secure about moving to them and they have told me that they have sought legal advice on this and are 100% sure that unless you have signed a contract or told them over the phone that you agree to another year you are not tied to them as they claim. They have a prepared legal letter they send to Phonewatch on your behalf if you're their customer and you'll never hear from Phonewatch again.

KoolKid

It would seem to me that the link above re inertia selling is black and white. A positive opt in without any confirmation can not be included in a contract in Ireland.
Good luck with it but I'd say it won't go that far based on previous customer experiences.
Again, thanks for the update and keep us informed.

kub

I cannot imagine Phonewatch going to court, that is PR that goes against their image of being ' so caring and wonderful '

amadablam

kub wrote: »

I cannot imagine Phonewatch going to court, that is PR that goes against their image of being ' so caring and wonderful '

Id agree but he told me that they or the debt collection agency would recover payment through courts if necessary.

I got a copy of an easily fabricated news letter in lieu of the one I never received and it is supposed to be the one emailed to me but doesn't include any internet headers or anything requested and I have responded that unless the above is supplied, I am not accepting its validity. It doesnt include anything at all in relation to sender or source and is merely an embedded image.

Its like this guy is on a personal crusade to force me to stay with them or pay for a years monitoring that I never signed up for!!

The has the audacity to refute the term strong arm tactics!

jelutong

I had a similar experience when my 3 year contract came to an end. To me
a 3 year contract is a 3 year contract.I got several bills and snotty emails. I didn't pay needless to say. I wouldn't touch Phonewatch with a barge pole. Appalling customer service and bad mannered call centre staff.

amadablam

Quick response and any advice welcome.

Less than a week after I last posted I got a letter telling me that they were terminating service to my house if I didn't make payment immediately.

Completely ignoring my cancellation and cancelled direct debit and the data protection request.

One week after the letter above, which I ignored. I get another letter telling me that if I don't pay the balance of the one year contract, which they won't provide proof of, because I haven't signed one, I have a letter threatening legal action, credit rating report and passing to a debt collection agency justica ignum in seven days and a threatened court action.

Is it just me or does that process seem extremely aggressive?

I've no idea what to do. Im not going through the hours of calling them and I am hoping that the data protection request will give me proof that they never notified me at all.

Not wanting to deflect but is this extremely aggressive and what should I do? They want 350+ for something I never received nor signed up for

KoolKid

Not giving legal advice here just my opinion.
Continue all cossospondance in writing.
Get your solicitor to send them a letter stating your requests and outlining the issues with an inertia selling clause in your contract.
To me looking at it it seems very clear that they can not use this method of renewing contracts.

amadablam

Well, major developments in the last few hours.

I'll update the thread once I receive the letter that is, apparently, being issued to me.

Interesting turn of events

jelutong

Good news I'd say at a guess.

KoolKid

Looking forward to the update.

amadablam

It's definitely interesting and I'm just being hesitant to say anything until I get this in writing and I've been promised it's on the way. I think it will come too but I'm going to be careful until I receive it.

amadablam

Well, I got a the letter today.....which was extremely quick.

After I got the previous letter yesterday, I received a phone call from their data protection officer.

The call was reasonably short, incredibly polite and direct.

You may remember from my posts that I was adamant that I had never received an email notice of renewal.

Phonewatch had sworn that it was issued and I asked for a copy of the email they sent, including the Internet headers. After a few days I received a screen grab embedded in an email and I refused to accept it and requested the email and headers again as the only proof that would be acceptable.

I was told that they would be able to prove in court that they had emailed me....I argued that I would go to court and prove otherwise and that I was confident that I would win.

That was why I sent in the data request asking for copies of all electronic correspondence with me, marketing data, call transcripts and most importantly, the electronic emails that show I was notified of the the renewal.

They can lie but they can't hide from the fact that there is legislation to protect our personal data and that this is our right to obtain records pertaining to that data. In this case, I wanted proof that they were lying about the email and if they couldn't provide a copy of it, then it didn't exist.

Anyway...... The data protection officer informed me that he was unable to fulfil my written requests and would return my cheque for 6.35.

Just to put it in perspective, this gentleman was the only phonewatch employee that I spoke in regard to the issue, who was a rational and helpful individual. This is in contrast to the belligerent aggressive manner of the previous employees on this issue .

I asked could he explain and he was hesitant to get drawn into a conversation. He said that he was unable to obtain copies or materials in relation to my requests and that they would like to offer me my cheque and also offer to close off my account in full an waive the €351 they were trying to falsely charge me.

I asked could I have this in writing so I got the letter today, stating that they are returning my cheque and that the letter was confirmation that my account was closed off and that I am not liable for any charges at all.

The letter was very basic and simply worded but I didn't expect a written apology

As you can see, they blatantly lied to me, issued threats to me, based on lies and only for I had went after them on data protection, they would have continued to harass me and insist that I was liable for something that they were completely lying about all along.

I haven't decided whether I'm happy with this in its entirity due to the fact that they are not obviously keeping their digital records in accordance with the relevant legislation.

So for anyone going through what I went through, stick to your guns if you firmly believe you are right.

mugsymugsy

Congrats and fair play. Is there someone you can complain to I did a quick Google but couldn't.

Thanks for the update and a reminder to all of those thinking of using phone watch! Have a read of this and then make an informed decision.

van_beano

Congrats, fair play sticking to your guns! That last post of yours should be shown to anyone else that comes on Boards with the same issue.

I can only imagine the amount of people who don’t fight these threats or have no one to give them advice on it and are constantly being rolled into a new contract whether they like it or not. This kind of carry on can’t go on but who do you go to to complain? I don’t know.

DesperateDan

Jaysus. Imagine if you were any way un-tech-savvy and didn't know anything about these tactics, I'm sure the vast majority wouldn't know what to do.

Going to court is surely the very last thing Phonewatch would do, even if they actually had proof they had sent you the mail. They will probably endeavor to make sure now they send these renewal confirmation emails when they should, which is something.

Even still it's incredibly shady business practice. Similar thing happened my car insurance with BoI the other day, they sent me a new disc and told me my direct debit was X per-month. If I didn't do anything about it in time (including posting the disc back to them) I would have been locked in for the year.

jimmycrackcorm

amadablam wrote:

Anyway...... The data protection officer informed me that he was unable to fulfil my written requests and would return my cheque for 6.35.

Now you have been sorted, you should now make a complaint to the data protection commissioner about this just to get back at them.

For whatever reason, simply not complying with your request is illegal and they should be taught a lesson about their shady practices.

KoolKid

I agree. And they have nothing to threaten you with now.

kub

I have to wonder how comfortable the NSAI and PSA are with this.

KoolKid

If anyone wants to ask them

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/Pages/contact_us

amadablam

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Now you have been sorted, you should now make a complaint to the data protection commissioner about this just to get back at them.

For whatever reason, simply not complying with your request is illegal and they should be taught a lesson about their shady practices.

That's what I was hinting as they are not just entitled to close off the matter to suit themselves. Ironically, they were unwilling to close off my account until I went down this route.

But I 'm actually away from home for the past week and want to see the letter properly and check out the commissioner process in detail when I am home.

KoolKid

Well at least the worst part in over. Thanks for all your input. I'm sure it will help many others.Keep us updated.

joe_99

Phonewatch tried to pull the same trick with me after a year. I cancelled straight away during the cooling off period. Awful company. Terrible practice of auto renewing contracts.

amadablam

KoolKid wrote: »

Well at least the worst part in over. Thanks for all your input. I'm sure it will help many others.Keep us updated.

I'm glad I waited until I got home and read the letter.

Turns out that the data protection officer is also the customer care manager....... Which means he was the manager that was directing the staff member that I was having the trouble with.

Seriously, you couldn't make this up.

Now that I've managed to call them out on their bull..... It's all ok with them

I'll be checking out the commissioner process in detail on Monday.

KoolKid

amadablam wrote: »

I'm glad I waited until I got home and read the letter.

Turns out that the data protection officer is also the customer care manager....... Which means he was the manager that was directing the staff member that I was having the trouble with.

Seriously, you couldn't make this up.

Now that I've managed to call them out on their bull..... It's all ok with them

I'll be checking out the commissioner process in detail on Monday.

He could be waffling you on his title. What position did he sign that letter under.?

amadablam

KoolKid wrote: »

He could be waffling you on his title. What position did he sign that letter under.?

I doubt it, I'd say his title is genuine, first piece of genuine information from them in this instance

Previous guy was customer care team and this guy is obviously his direct manager

Title is 'customer care and data protection manager'

KoolKid

Maybe I'm too suspicious.

Ciaraki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/104648316#Comment_104648316

I just wanted to thank you amadablam. Your experience is identical to what I have just gone through (imagine 5 years later!!). I followed your advice and have just received a email to say it is resolved. Thank you.

Rattlehead_ie

I have to say Im surprised at this attitude from PhoneWatch. I am in the process of moving provider and by chance came across this thread.

Slightly different situation where I have recieved a email about "auto renew" which went into my spam account, along with the rest of their marketting rubish. Im wondering if Im in the same situation or locked in? This seems like a very sneaky tactic. Its very much an auto opt in which I thought was illegal