turning steel shed into chalet /man cave ??

leisurewow

Hi , i have a 11 yr old steeltech shed 30' x 20' , basic insulation , i want to turn it into a chalet/man cave with a tv , pool table , bedroom etc. Can this be done without breaking the bank ?
Condensation in winter is bad , this is my main concern . I'm reluctant to sell it and put up new heavily insulated shed because I simply can't afford to , the shed was used as storage but is now just a family gym ..
Any advice would be greatly appreciated .
Thanks .

the_pen_turner

could you spray foam the inside .
I would build an independent stud frame inside the shed. maybe 150mm then foam the gap.
then I would counter baton the stud to create a service gap then board out to finish

leisurewow

the_pen_turner wrote: »

could you spray foam the inside .
I would build an independent stud frame inside the shed. maybe 150mm then foam the gap.
then I would counter baton the stud to create a service gap then board out to finish

Yes , spraying the inside could b done , would the gap take care of the condensation ?

jack of all

From your post it sounds like you have a single skin cladding with maybe an "anti-drip" fleece bonded to the rear face? In that case you will have difficulties upgrading and insulating unless you introduce a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation. Without an effective vapour barrier moisture-laden air will pass through ply or plasterboard lining, through insulation and condense on the coldest part of the structure- your existing uninsulated cladding.

Maybe others here can advise better but unless you have the skills to do this yourself (labour being the biggest element of this type of project) it couldwork out quite expensive to upgrade this type of construction. You'd have a lot of messing with expensive vapour control membranes, tapes etc to ensure the job worked. Have you considered selling the existing shed and upgrading to a fully insulated one, same footprint?

leisurewow

jack of all wrote: »

From your post it sounds like you have a single skin cladding with maybe an "anti-drip" fleece bonded to the rear face? In that case you will have difficulties upgrading and insulating unless you introduce a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation. Without an effective vapour barrier moisture-laden air will pass through ply or plasterboard lining, through insulation and condense on the coldest part of the structure- your existing uninsulated cladding.

Maybe others here can advise better but unless you have the skills to do this yourself (labour being the biggest element of this type of project) it couldwork out quite expensive to upgrade this type of construction. You'd have a lot of messing with expensive vapour control membranes, tapes etc to ensure the job worked. Have you considered selling the existing shed and upgrading to a fully insulated one, same footprint?

Yes thanks , waiting for a quote to come in for new fully insulated shed , i fear i'll have to be sitting down though 😱 ... I just thought if it was feasible money wise to insulate the present shed it would save hassle . I'll let u know the quote when i get it .

Line it in polythene? Stick some cheap and cheerful insulation and then plasterboard and skim over it? House quality interior for not an enormous amount?

I know a chap that could quote if you're nearby (Im in drogheda) as he did this for me (albeit, with a wooden shed) and the result is fantastic in my opinion. I don't recall it being mental money, either.

Then floor it with those anti-fatigue mats from halfords (on top of some ply sheets or such if you don't already have a floor in there, but i presume there's something there already) and you've a soft warm interior.


If budget is too tight for real insulation, revert back to the above halfords mats again (leaving space for them to expand etc.) and i reckon they'd act as a cheapo wall/ceiling insulator, too. Although I'm no expert. But for the price/coverage you'll not get much better value for money.

jack of all

Deleted User wrote: »

Line it in polythene? Stick some cheap and cheerful insulation and then plasterboard and skim over it? House quality interior for not an enormous amount?"

If you were to go this route make sure the polythene (vapour barrier) is positioned on the warm side of the insulation i.e. insulation, polythene then plasterboard or ply lining.

leisurewow

Makes sense , but what about the gaps in th corrugations ? Would i need to spray foam to make walls and ceiling flat and then do the rest ?
I looked online , kingspan 100mm sheets , 2.4m x 1.2m , i'd need roughly 45 sheets , 4 walls and ceiling , at €50 each = €2,250 , and then the rest , i'm still waiting for a new shed quote just in case it makes more sense .

leisurewow

leisurewow wrote: »

Makes sense , but what about the gaps in th corrugations ? Would i need to spray foam to make walls and ceiling flat and then do the rest ?
I looked online , kingspan 100mm sheets , 2.4m x 1.2m , i'd need roughly 45 sheets , 4 walls and ceiling , at €50 each = €2,250 , and then the rest , i'm still waiting for a new shed quote just in case it makes more sense .

I won't pretend to know about the gaps. I'd have no idea there at all, though I presume they wouldn't matter as you'd have made a new 'wall' inside anyway, so it wouldn't make any difference if the shed itself was corrugated or flat?


But on your other comment, as it's a shed, is 100mm perhaps a tad over the top? you might save a few euro by getting 70mm or such instead?

Can also save a few euro by sticking your nose onto Donedeal?

https://www.donedeal.ie/buildingmaterials-for-sale/floor-wall-and-ceiling-insulation-for-sale/16319684

https://www.donedeal.ie/buildingmaterials-for-sale/foil-floor-insulation-main-dealer-1st-seconds/14652769



Just ideas for you.


I have a 16x11ft wooden shed and it cost me €2,200 (+ €500 for my own windows and doors, supplied separately, so €2,700 all in). Just to give you a ballpark figure on shed prices. That was a wood shed, lined with polythene. I insulated, slabbed, skimmed and painted at additional cost (think it was about €1,500 or so, but I cut plenty of corners that I felt I could get away with).

(for example, my insulation is sheets of aeroboard, as I knew that between the wood off the shed, the polythene, the aeroboard, the plasterboard, and the skim coat that the shed would likely hold heat, anyway. So I threw a little 2kw heater into it, and it's grand. Even on a cold day, after 20 minutes with the heater, the shed is a comfortable temperature inside).

leisurewow

That's good thanks , i hadnt seen those ads , i mentioned 100mm purely because if friends want to sleep over in the middle of winter , i or they could bunk out in the shed , or i could fall asleep on top of the pool table and not freeze to death because i'm too drunk to turn on the heater . I'd rather have too much insulation then not enough , i'll contact those dd ads and see , it might just add up , thank you .

the_pen_turner

leisurewow wrote: »

That's good thanks , i hadnt seen those ads , i mentioned 100mm purely because if friends want to sleep over in the middle of winter , i or they could bunk out in the shed , or i could fall asleep on top of the pool table and not freeze to death because i'm too drunk to turn on the heater . I'd rather have too much insulation then not enough , i'll contact those dd ads and see , it might just add up , thank you .

just remember that insulation doesn't create heat. it only slows down its movement.
you would still freeze to death if it was cold enough
you will need some kind of heat source to have any heat in there

leisurewow

Fair point ..

Forgive my total ignorance , i'm not a builder just an ordinary joe soap , but with the insulation , polythene sheeting , board and plaster, where exactly does the condensation go ? I could put vents here and there to help it perhaps ??
And do i have to skim/plaster it ? Could i save money by painting / wall papering directly onto the board ?

nuac

Have you considered planning implications of the changes e.g. residence?

Water John

If you use plasterboard, you don't have to fully skim it. Just tape the joints and light skim, that only. It will be ready for painting in day or two.

leisurewow

nuac wrote: »

Have you considered planning implications of the changes e.g. residence?

Yes , all that's taken care of . It's only now i'm able to do something with it finally .

jack of all

Where does the moisture go? If you provide a vapour barrier the moisture will be held in the air and eventually condense on the coldest available surface once dew point has been reached- which could be the double glazed window, steel door or some other cold surface. You will need to have some effective ventilation to release/ control the build up of moisure (or relative humidity). In my insulated shed I run a dehumidifier a couple of times a week during the winter to keep a handle on humidity. If you are going to be sleeping in it or using it on a regular basis you will need to consider adequate heating and ventilation.

leisurewow

Water John wrote: »

If you use plasterboard, you don't have to fully skim it. Just tape the joints and light skim, that only. It will be ready for painting in day or two.

Thanks , that would bring the cost down a bit allright.

jack of all

jack of all wrote: »

Where does the moisture go? If you provide a vapour barrier the moisture will be held in the air and eventually condense on the coldest available surface once dew point has been reached- which could be the double glazed window, steel door or some other cold surface. You will need to have some effective ventilation to release/ control the build up of moisure (or relative humidity). In my insulated shed I run a dehumidifier a couple of times a week during the winter to keep a handle on humidity. If you are going to be sleeping in it or using it on a regular basis you will need to consider adequate heating and ventilation.

My shed has a window (an 8foot wide window, with two openings, one each side). These are kept open, pretty much year-round, by about half an inch (you know windows that have an 'open but still locked' position).

I find even this lets air in and around. I've got gym gear in my shed, meaning a lot of steel, cold surfaces, and I've not had any issues with condensation (yet, anyway).


So the OP could theoretically copy that idea. Assuming there is a window of course.

leisurewow

Got a quote for new empty shed , heavily insulated , same foot print for €21k ... Can't afford it , so will no doubt be going the diy way .

leisurewow

leisurewow wrote: »

Got a quote for new empty shed , heavily insulated , same foot print for €21k ... Can't afford it , so will no doubt be going the diy way .

Price around.

A place in Louth called Funshog sheds are decent. Fee places are in dream land with their prices though.

leisurewow

Just to recap ,,, if I use insulation + polythene + plasterboard ... this is the correct way to do it ?? but does there have to be a gap between the 3 layers ?

Also , if I used insulated plasterboard , 2 birds with one stone , is there a polythene layer between the 2 layers ? (between the insulation and the plaster board ?) .. It's a bit confusing .

I've no expertise here at all. Your shed is made of steel, which may change things (as my shed is wooden).


For me, it was the wooden shed, then a layer of polythene (the polythene was already on the shed when I got it, they send every shed out already lined with polythene). Then I added cheapo insulation in the form of aeroboard, and then plasterboards over it. Then that was skimmed.

So for me, from the outside in, its:

Wooden Shed > Sheet of polythene > Insulation > Plasterboard > Skimcoat.



I haven't any great photos, but here's the shed with the aeroboard wedged into the wall gaps:




And the plasterboard sheets fitted:




And skimmed:




And the foam mats for the floor:





I can't seem to find any pics of it before the aeroboard or of the end product as it is now (painted up), but it's very good quality inside and it does hold heat pretty well (i used the aeroboard cos it was cheap, but i didn't expect it'd actually be much use, but it seems to actually be decent enough).


Again though, mine is wood, yours is steel, so that could change things completely. I would assume, nonetheless that polythene is the first coat inside the shed, as that will keep water, condensation etc. away from the insulation and such? (presumably wet insulation doesn't work as good as dry insulation).

leisurewow

That's fantastic thanks . Very good photos .

I'm still a little confused , as i thought the polythene layer had to be on the warm side of the insulation , i.e. shed wall + insulation + polythene + plaster board ??

Anyone done this on a metal shed ??

I genuinely don't know, but seen as no one else has replied, i'll ramble away anyway.


I think the insulation should be inside, and the polythene outside. My presumption is that the polythene can get cold air/water vapour droplets on it and it's fine, whereas if they get on the insulation, then you have damp insulation, which is not as effective.

Then I found this link which completely disagrees with me:

http://blog.kingspaninsulation.co.uk/what-vapour-control-layer-should-you-use-in-walls/

Polythene
300-500 gauge polythene fitted to the warm side (the inner side) of the insulation. Polythene is mostly used on timber or steel framed walls where foil-backed insulated plasterboard isn’t used

and here's a link i havent actually read yet, but might be useful.

https://shedblog.com.au/insulating-your-shed-retrofitting-shed-insulation/

jack of all

The ideal detail is as follows:

Internal lining (plasterboard/ ply sheeting), vapour barrier (polythene, min. 500 gauge), thermal insulation, small air gap and then the external steel cladding. The vapour barrier will prevent the bulk of any moisture vapour finding its way into the construction, but any vapour that does pass through the build up (through holes, gaps, imperfections of fit in the membrane) will condense on the inside of the (cold) steel cladding. Thus you should have a gap between the insulation and the cladding so that the insulation does not become wet by contact. Ideally you should retain the insulation in place by using a breather membrane outside the insulation- so that vapour can make its way through the insulation to condense on the inside of the cladding but will not be absorbed back into the insulation. Putting a vapour barrier outside the insulation (on the cold side) is a bad idea- water vapour will pass through the insulation, temperature drops and condensation form on the polythene (sweating), this buids up over time and the insulation can become saturated as a result- with resulatant drop in thermal performance, more condensation etc.

GreeBo

The purpose of the vapour barrier is to stop wet, warm air from hitting cold surfaces and condensing (i.e. getting wet)
So you need to have it before the cold surface. The barrier stops the warm, wet air from passing through your insulation, thus it has to be on the warm side of the insulation.
if you have it on the cold side it means your vapour barrier is effectively cold. So sure, its waterproofing your cold surface, but that means its growing mold behind your insulation, which is not what you want!

As someone mentioned above, I'd be building an internal stud wall leaving a gap between it and the external wall. Treat it like an attic, you dont need the steel shed itself to be warm and insulated, just the internal "room" you are building. So no need to worry about gaps in the roof etc, as long as its weather tight of course.

You will need to do something about the door & windows are these are the hardest bits to get correct on a house, even harder in this scenario. It may be better/easier to have an internal door and windows...

listermint

Spray foam the roof gaps and butyl tape the window edges

leisurewow

Many thanks one and all .. i think the idea of building a new 'room' inside the shed makes perfect sense .. paying particular attention to windows and doors .

My confusion was over the vapour barrier , as some sites say this is different from a polythene layer as a vapour barrier has tiny holes in it for circulation ?? And a polythene layer doesn't ??

I need to keep things simple , because i'm a simple man ..

In an ideal world , i'm not going to do it , i could theoretically get two 28' x 10' mobile homes , cut the chassis as low as possible and shove them into the shed , basically a new room inside the shed . Windows and doors being the issue .

leisurewow

So from outside in , steel shed wall + small air gap + insulation + polythene (500+ guage) + plasterboard + skim/paint ... Is this right .. does there have to be a small gap between insulation and polythene , and gap between polythene and plasterboard ??

Also , is the ceiling the same method ? Would the angle of the roof and gravity cause polythene layer to make wet patches on the plasterboard ??

leisurewow

Would osb board be as good as plaster board ? If i seal the edges that have been cut ?

jack of all

leisurewow wrote: »

Would osb board be as good as plaster board ? If i seal the edges that have been cut ?

I used 1/2" pine shuttering ply in my shed- depends what you're looking for. OSB might work out marginally cheaper but I don't think it's as good as ply and very easy break out the edges when fitting it if you're not careful. Ply or OSB will stand up to knocks and damage than plasterboard obviously. Personally I like the "warm" look of timber ply over a plasterboard.I sealed my ply with 2- 3 coats of well diluted PVA primer.

tech

Any more pictures of the shed

Plasterboard is something id only advise if you're actually gonna plaster over it. For that 'single surface' smooth interior look.

I went with a plaster finish because i thought it'd be nicer looking, and if the shed is off a bit, or at all warped or twisted, your head will be melted trying to cut timber to get it all flush looking and without gaps anywhere.

But to each their own I suppose. I prefer a smooth painted look to a place. I think it's a lot nicer.

jack of all

Deleted User wrote: »

I went with a plaster finish because i thought it'd be nicer looking, and if the shed is off a bit, or at all warped or twisted, your head will be melted trying to cut timber to get it all flush looking and without gaps anywhere.

Agreed, timber is not as forgiving and is a lot slower to put up, but at least you don't have to plaster it!

leisurewow

kkv ... sorry to be a pain , but you said your shed arrived with a polythene layer , was this simply polythene or was it a 'breathable' vapour layer ??

I was talking to a carpenter and a foam insulator today and they both seem to be utterly convinced that i do the following , from outside in , the external steel wall , then 50mm space , then breathable vapour barrier (which lets moisture out but not in) , then insulation , then plasterboard .. some say potato , some say potater ..

leisurewow

The insulation guy was talking about open cell foam , not closed cell foam .

jack of all

I see a problem with this proposal- no vapour check/ barrier on the warm side of the insulation means that condensation will build up and collect on the inside face of the steel cladding with no where to go. It is a fundamental principle that you should limit (in so far as is ptracticable) any moisture laden air getting into the construction in the first place, so stop it on the warm side of the insulation with a cheap vapour barrier, which is easily installed. Your installers suggestion would be fine where the cavity was to be drained (allowing any moisture which collected to drain away (this would be similar to a rain screen cladding detail).

leisurewow

Kkv .. have you had any problems with condensation , damp etc. In winter when your working out inside the shed ?

leisurewow

leisurewow wrote: »

kkv ... sorry to be a pain , but you said your shed arrived with a polythene layer , was this simply polythene or was it a 'breathable' vapour layer ??

I would be lying if i said I knew the answer to that question. Maybe it was a vapour layer, in hindsight.

leisurewow wrote: »

Kkv .. have you had any problems with condensation , damp etc. In winter when your working out inside the shed ?

None at all, so far. The windows on the shed have an 'open but still locked' kinda setting on them (a lot of PVC windows have this i think, so the window stays open about 1/3 of an inch). They're always left like this, so the shed can breathe a bit.

There's lots of steel stuff in the shed (as per most gym equipment) and in an old concrete shed i had, the stuff would be generally sweating. You would be soaked if you touched it.

Whereas in the wooden shed, which is only about a year old so has only been through one winter so far, in fairness, has been house-quality inside in terms of condensation.

But I could be just lucky, either, somehow.

mp31

Deleted User wrote: »

... Then I added cheapo insulation in the form of aeroboard...

How thick was the aeroboard that you installed?
Is it this type of stuff: http://www.woodies.ie/aeroboard-50mm-thickness-389499

Thats the stuff but i didnt get it in woodies, i got it on adverts cheaply. It was only about 10mm though, but i layered it 2-3 times over (everywhere got at least 2 layers, with the ceiling getting 3 for the most part).

jack of all

jack of all wrote: »

Agreed, timber is not as forgiving and is a lot slower to put up, but at least you don't have to plaster it!

Much as I like that finish, i still prefer plaster finish to be honest.

I think the wood-finish like yours is grand for a shed thats being used as a shed, or a work shop or such, but i prefer a smooth painted surface for an activity that you'd otherwise expect indoors (like gym, which is what mine is used for).

To each their own, of course.

rolion

@OP,sorry to hijack your thread...
Found this article H E R E

@KKV,
i'm starting a wooden shed / gym type DIY myself. Thanks for the photos,they resolved some of my dilemmas...
Can i ask you what did you use / how you made the foundation for the wooden shed,please !?
Thanks

rolion

rolion wrote: »

@OP,sorry to hijack your thread...
Found this article H E R E

@KKV,
i'm starting a wooden shed / gym type DIY myself. Thanks for the photos,they resolved some of my dilemmas...
Can i ask you what did you use / how you made the foundation for the wooden shed,please !?
Thanks

I had a concrete shed, and it had decking beside it.

I knocked it (but kept the decking) and the wooden shed replaced it. The wooden shed is wider, though, so I'd say 60-70% of the shed's base was on an old concrete foundation, supported by 4" blocks on their flat side, and the rest of the shed was sitting on the deck (also on 4" blocks).


Then I decided to put a little extension on the back of the house, so had to hire a crane to lift the shed further away from the house. So it got moved further up the decking, so nowadays it's sitting about 75% on decking (on 4" blocks) and the other 25% on what was the concrete floor/foundation of the previous shed (again, though, supported by 4" blocks on their side).


The shed came with it's own wooden floor. I topped this up with an 18mm sheet of plywood, and then another 18mm sheet of OSB. This was just to re-enforce and toughen it incase weights are dropped, etc.


I paid about 2,700 for the shed though (including €500 i spent on doors and windows off donedeal) so be careful where you buy from as i have seen prices posted of quotes from shed makers that are insane. :eek:

rolion

Thanks for clarifications.

Im doing the foundation next week.
Few holes,from 1m to 1m covered with concrete and wooden pressurired treaten fitted inside.
Over them and along the surface,running an horizontal base of 4" blocks,one horisontal and other vertical,like an "L" shape,mainly to keep the water and moisture out. On top of the new line, i am raising the vertical poles that will hold the walls and the roof.

Floor,will be stones whacked and a membrane fitted across the floor and over the blocks.
Composited panels of 5-10mm insulation fitted and on top of them plywood.Then,some special rubber matts to take the load.

Walls will be made out of Kingspan insulated walls. Simillar with these ones H E R E !
They look easy to install and have all the protection/insulation built-in... i guess work fine for the @OPs metal shed as well. Check the page instalaltion video!

mp31

rolion wrote: »

Thanks for clarifications.

Im doing the foundation next week.
Few holes,from 1m to 1m covered with concrete and wooden pressurired treaten fitted inside.
Over them and along the surface,running an horizontal base of 4" blocks,one horisontal and other vertical,like an "L" shape,mainly to keep the water and moisture out. On top of the new line, i am raising the vertical poles that will hold the walls and the roof.

Floor,will be stones whacked and a membrane fitted across the floor and over the blocks.
Composited panels of 5-10mm insulation fitted and on top of them plywood.Then,some special rubber matts to take the load.

Walls will be made out of Kingspan insulated walls. Simillar with these ones H E R E !
They look easy to install and have all the protection/insulation built-in... i guess work fine for the @OPs metal shed as well. Check the page instalaltion video!

Hi rolion, I'm looking to do something similar and would very much appreciate a few pics of the foundation as you build it ... either via PM or on this thread.

rolion

Hi,

Found these insulated panels H E R E ...
What do you guys think about them ?

I'll say is an easy and clean way to do the walls and roofs.
orks on timber or metal shell structure.

I'll enquire about the price tomorrow.

Thanks

leisurewow

Hi , can u post another link for the insulated panels ? .. google wont let me in on my fone ..

rolion

leisurewow wrote: »

Hi , can u post another link for the insulated panels ? .. google wont let me in on my fone ..

It's Microsoft OneDrive.
I'll attach pictures here ,later.

@mp31..i'll do,just cut the trees and i'm levelling the ground.












PDF file H E R E .

leisurewow

Many thanks .. very interesting ..

rolion

yes...i've been told that they look too industrial type but who cares,as long as they are decent colours ,well insulated and get a good & easy diy fitting.

seen those in the pictures stored in a garden shop,they were buildingn extension to their curent warehouse.
Understood they works on a metal and timber structure,with lots of corners and edges accesories to be fully watherproof.
Not sure how they will be adjusted to the right dimensions,i am going next week to Dundalk to see the company that suplies them and ask for advice,maybe place an order too.