Permanent Traffic Changes - Dawson St & Surrounds

LXFlyer

Changes take effect from Monday next.

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/dawson-street-traffic-alterations-monday-11th-september/

As part of the on-going delivery of Luas Cross City, the following permanent alterations to traffic on Dawson Street will come into effect from Monday 11th September;

DAWSON STREET: From St Stephen’s Green North to Molesworth Street
Existing traffic arrangement will remain in place. All traffic permitted in the northbound direction and a contra-flow tram lane in the southbound direction.

DAWSON STREET: From Molesworth Street to Duke Street
Two-way traffic flow to be introduced between Molesworth Street and Duke Street with the following restrictions;

Northbound direction: Only trams, buses and access permitted. All other traffic on Dawson Street must turn right onto Molesworth Street to exit the area.

Southbound direction: Only trams and access permitted. Vehicles egressing from Duke Street and Dawson Lane must travel southbound on Dawson Street and turn left onto Molesworth Street to exit the area.

DAWSON STREET: From Duke Street to Nassau Street
Only buses and trams will be permitted in the northbound direction with a contra-flow tram lane in the southbound direction. Vehicles on Duke Street and Dawson Lane looking to exit the area must travel southbound on Dawson Street and turn left onto Molesworth Street to exit the area.

ACCESS TO NASSAU STREET
From St Stephen’s Green North
General traffic accessing Nassau Street should not travel on Dawson Street and instead access Nassau Street by turning right on St Stephens Green North at the Shelbourne Hotel onto Kildare Street and take second left onto Molesworth Street and first right down South Frederick Street. Note: Only vehicles up to 3.5T can continue on South Frederick Street past the junction with Setanta Place and turn right onto Nassau Street. Vehicles over 3.5T must exit the area by turning right onto Setanta Place and right again onto Kildare Street and follow road around onto Merrion Row.

From Dawson Street
Traffic turning off Dawson Street onto Molesworth Street can access Nassau Street by taking the first left onto South Frederick Street and by adhering to the vehicle weight restrictions north of the junction with Setanta Place as above before turning right onto Nassau Street.

New traffic signage will be in place to assist road users.

brokenarms

I noticed they put up flexi bollards turning right into Kildare Street outside the Shelbourne hotel.

It also looks like a bus or truck can no longer make the turn without hitting them.

KD345

It's worth mentioning the planned changes to Dublin Bus routes along this section originally planned for September 11th have been deferred until September 24th.

ArmaniJeanss

Looks like cyclists aren't included in the traffic that can fully go down Dawson Street (buses and trams only). Seems a bit petty not to include them?

Mec-a-nic

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Looks like cyclists aren't included in the traffic that can fully go down Dawson Street (buses and trams only). Seems a bit petty not to include them?

Not only a bit petty, but pointless: it will be ignored by every student heading for the TCD Nassau St entrance and everyone trying to get wet (Suffolk St onwards).

AlekSmart

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Looks like cyclists aren't included in the traffic that can fully go down Dawson Street (buses and trams only). Seems a bit petty not to include them?

A bit Petty...?

More like prudent and eminently sensible,when one takes a close look at the amount of roadspace available to cater for bi-directional flows of 56Mtr Trams and (From the 24th) up to 11 Mtr buses.

You have raised though,what may turn out to be the fatal flaw in this entire project,and one which will NOT self-regulate.
Is there anybody on here who will suggest that cyclists will OBEY the actual restriction on their use of Dawson Street at this point ?

Whatever about deploying Gardai at the Bachelors Walk Busgate,one can see immediate issues with enforcing this particular safety-related regulation...

Marcusm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Looks like cyclists aren't included in the traffic that can fully go down Dawson Street (buses and trams only). Seems a bit petty not to include them?

Only last week did I see a cyclist come off a bike having cycled into the tram tracks. Perhaps they're trying to prevent it becoming a daily occurrence.

alentejo

I have cycled down Dawson St every day going to work for the past 20 years and from today I can't. So much for Dublin being a cycle friendly city.

ArmaniJeanss

Marcusm wrote: »

Only last week did I see a cyclist come off a bike having cycled into the tram tracks. Perhaps they're trying to prevent it becoming a daily occurrence.

I don't think that's the issue as there are other tram sections where you can cycle.
Obviously its up to cyclists to be careful and sensible re tram tracks - though I think they catch everyone out the first time but then you adjust to them.

LuckyLloyd

I think banning cyclists from Dawson St given what's coming with the LUAS going down it and the tracks increasing liklihood of cyclists taking a fall is eminently sensible. Safety first.

ArmaniJeanss

alentejo wrote: »

I have cycled down Dawson St every day going to work for the past 20 years and from today I can't. So much for Dublin being a cycle friendly city.

Cycled down it northwards this evening. Nothing on the signage to suggest it's not allowed - the sign at Duke St still said bicycles can go straight on and the on-road markings still have a swervy bike warning painted on.
I'll continue to do it safely (walking onto the pavement if theres a tram behind me) until theres something there expressly forbidding it.

loyatemu

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Cycled down it northwards this evening. Nothing on the signage to suggest it's not allowed - the sign at Duke St still said bicycles can go straight on and the on-road markings still have a swervy bike warning painted on.
I'll continue to do it safely (walking onto the pavement if theres a tram behind me) until theres something there expressly forbidding it.

you'd want to be cycling very slowly to be caught by a tram considering they have to stop on Dawson street and then will be crawling around the corner into Nassau Street and around College Green.

AlekSmart

loyatemu wrote: »

you'd want to be cycling very slowly to be caught by a tram considering they have to stop on Dawson street and then will be crawling around the corner into Nassau Street and around College Green.

All correct & proper,however You will not be the only cyclist to be found cycling through this section at any given moment,will you ?

The reality is one of a huge expansion in Cyclist numbers throughout the city,with the section along Nassau Street/Grafton Street already hugely problematic with increasing numbers of cycists heading Westwards back towards College Green,with not a concern for their own safety,or more importantly,anybody elses.

None of this is helped by the rather inappropriately located Dublin Bike Station at the Kildare Street/Nassau St junction,which continually feeds many of it's members into that ill advised routing.

Quite how Luas/TfI/DCC,or any other supposed authority,will go about integrating these random,and often,rapid cyclist flows,remains to be seen.

However,I remain confident that Dublin's Public Transport and Civil Governence will find an acceptable (& Safe) method of seamlessly integrating 46Mtr,70+Tonne trams operating bi-directionally at 3 minute peak frequency,a selection of Buses,and a smattering of cyclists of varying competence and ability levels ....sure,what could go wrong ?

antoinolachtnai

I think you will find they are 53-meter trams!

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I think you will find they are 53-meter trams!

Not quite yet!

The additional seven 53m trams haven't been delivered yet and may not enter service until next Spring.

The trams on test are sourced from the large pool of spare Red Line trams which are 40m long.

The existing Green Line trams are 43m long and as yet no approval has been given to extend them.

stop

Looked at Dawson St this evening around 5:30/6:00.

Buses planned for the Molesworth St move should be moved asap. Big queue from bottom of Dawson st.. because..
There is no light sequence to allow left turn only onto Nassau! So as long as eastbound on Nassau has a green light, no traffic can exit Dawson St, nor can any pedestrians cross bottom of Dawson St - presumably this is to give a path from Trams from Nassau to Dawson, but surely this should only be triggered if a tram is actually approaching this path?

Lots of needless waiting with current (yes I recognise unfinished) setup.

stop

Also regarding cyclists, is there any other route (other than Motorways) which has a legally enforceable ban on Cyclists, but not on Taxis/Buses?

LXFlyer

There is no restriction on using Dawson St by cyclists.

The signage clearly indicates that buses, trams, taxis and bicycles can use it.

I'm not sure where this misinformation is coming from.

LXFlyer

stop wrote: »

Looked at Dawson St this evening around 5:30/6:00.

Buses planned for the Molesworth St move should be moved asap. Big queue from bottom of Dawson st.. because..
There is no light sequence to allow left turn only onto Nassau! So as long as eastbound on Nassau has a green light, no traffic can exit Dawson St, nor can any pedestrians cross bottom of Dawson St - presumably this is to give a path from Trams from Nassau to Dawson, but surely this should only be triggered if a tram is actually approaching this path?

Lots of needless waiting with current (yes I recognise unfinished) setup.

The bus routes change on Sunday week, September 24th.

That should ease the situation.

ArmaniJeanss

LXFlyer wrote: »

There is no restriction on using Dawson St by cyclists.

The signage clearly indicates that buses, trams, taxis and bicycles can use it.

I'm not sure where this misinformation is coming from.

Well there was a new orange digital display board up last night saying 'trams and buses only' at the corner of Duke street heading north on Dawson. Maybe that's the confusion/misinformation.

LXFlyer

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well there was a new orange digital display board up last night saying 'trams and buses only' at the corner of Duke street heading north on Dawson. Maybe that's the confusion/misinformation.

The legal road signage clearly lists bicycles and taxis in addition to trams and buses as being able to use the street.

I suspect the DMD signs are there to deflect car traffic.

AlekSmart

LXFlyer wrote: »

The legal road signage clearly lists bicycles and taxis in addition to trams and buses as being able to use the street.

I suspect the DMD signs are there to deflect car traffic.

Currently,the intention is ONLY BUSES & TRAMS turning left at bottom of Dawson Street,however,as any enforcement is highly unlikely,it will largely depend upon when the first Cyclist is killed there.

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/dawson-street-traffic-alterations-monday-11th-september/

Note that Cyclists are specifically mentioned as being catered for on the Kildare St-Nassau Street routing,so it's not as if the authorities simply forgot all about them....although....it could well be possible

monument

LXFlyer wrote: »

There is no restriction on using Dawson St by cyclists.

The signage clearly indicates that buses, trams, taxis and bicycles can use it.

I'm not sure where this misinformation is coming from.

Maybe the updates from Luas Cross City? The fact that they refuse to answer tweets or emails on this? Or the fact that the RPA and TII wanted/s to ban cyclists from the sections between Dawson Street and College Street?

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/dawson-street-traffic-alterations-monday-11th-september/

ArmaniJeanss

LXFlyer wrote: »

The legal road signage clearly lists bicycles and taxis in addition to trams and buses as being able to use the street.

I suspect the DMD signs are there to deflect car traffic.

The on-street signage was changed as of yesterday evening, just mentions trams and buses now.

LXFlyer

Fair enough - I was going on the legal signage.

ArmaniJeanss

LXFlyer wrote: »

Fair enough - I was going on the legal signage.

I'm not sure what 'legal signage' exactly means to be honest, so maybe we are at cross purposes.
But what changed yesterday anyway is that there is now a shiny new 'white metal, black text' sign on a pole saying 'trams and buses only' just before Duke St. So I think that's pretty much game over for my cycling that part of the street, legally.

LXFlyer

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm not sure what 'legal signage' exactly means to be honest, so maybe we are at cross purposes.
But what changed yesterday anyway is that there is now a shiny new 'white metal, black text' sign on a pole saying 'trams and buses only' just before Duke St. So I think that's pretty much game over for my cycling that part of the street, legally.

Legal signage = Signage per the road traffic acts (Road signs, and not DMD signage or documentation).

Carawaystick

The N25 and N40 have sections where cycling is not permitted, despite not being motorways, one of these sections is the Jack Lynch tunnel, the other bit is the waterford bypass.


I'm not sure how you could legally ban cycling on a street with footpaths and homes on the street. I'm also not sure how such a large detour for people cycling could have been agreed by An Bord Pleanála. Maybe they were too busy worrying about a second stop on Dawson st to worry about the elephants in the room at grafton st and college green.

SPDUB

Carawaystick wrote: »

The N25 and N40 have sections where cycling is not permitted, despite not being motorways, one of these sections is the Jack Lynch tunnel, the other bit is the waterford bypass.


I'm not sure how you could legally ban cycling on a street with footpaths and homes on the street. I'm also not sure how such a large detour for people cycling could have been agreed by An Bord Plean. Maybe they were too busy worrying about a second stop on Dawson st to worry about the elephants in the room at grafton st and college green.

I wonder if the legal ban is to try to stop compensation claims by people slipping on the tram lines in that section because you would be doing something illegal .

Anyone know what they have done with the "cyclist be careful tram line " signs in that section now .

I went down that way last friday and didn't find it a particular problem

thomasj

Just got this mail from Dublin bus

We’re re-routing. You’re saving time!

Sunday October 1st brings changes to Dublin’s Fair city! There will no longer be a right turn at the bottom of Dawson Street meaning some of our services will be rerouted. Don’t fret….it’s the good kind of change, the time saving, two minutes longer in the shower, get to work that little bit earlier kind of change! So, see if you’re one of the lucky one’s…. 

7b/d, 11, 25x, 32x, 37, 38/a/b/d 39/a, 41x, 44, 46a, 61, 66x, 67x, 70, 84x, 116, 118 and 145
Normal route to Dawson Street, left on to Nassau Street, Grafton Street, Westmoreland Street and back on to normal route.a

LXFlyer

And it's wrong!

Only the 11, 38/a/b/d and 46a/e are using Grafton St.

Everything else is using Molesworth St, Kildare St, and Westland Row.

Can they not get anything right in that department?

thomasj

Completely agree, bad mistake to make sending out the first mail!

Looking back, turns out I got 2 mails this morning from dublin bus

The first one @ 8.16 stated:

Sunday October 1st brings changes to Dublin’s Fair city! There will no longer be a right turn at the bottom of Dawson Street meaning some of our services will be rerouted. Don’t fret….it’s the good kind of change, the time saving, two minutes longer in the shower, get to work that little bit earlier kind of change! So, see if you’re one of the lucky one’s….

7b/d, 11, 25x, 32x, 37, 38/a/b/d 39/a, 41x, 44, 46a, 61, 66x, 67x, 70, 84x, 116, 118 and 145

Normal route to Dawson Street, left on to Nassau Street, Grafton Street, Westmoreland Street and back on to normal route.

The second one came @ 9.39

Sunday October 1st brings changes to Dublin’s Fair city! There will no longer be a right turn at the bottom of Dawson Street meaning some of our services will be rerouted. Don’t fret….it’s the good kind of change, the time saving, two minutes longer in the shower, get to work that little bit earlier kind of change! So, see if you’re one of the lucky one’s….

7b/d, 25x, 32x, 37, 39/a, 41x, 44, 61, 66x, 67x, 70, 84x, 116, 118 and 145

Normal route to Dawson Street, right onto Molesworth Street, Kildare Street, South Leinster Street and back on to normal route.

It would have been nice if they added a comment above the 9.39 mail saying "apologies for the earlier mail it was sent in error, please ignore"

The opening paragraph hardly applies in the case of the second mail does it?

devnull

Clearly an error with proof reading on that, looks like it was sent out too quick.

LXFlyer

Sigh - I sometimes feel like just giving up!!

TheChrisD

Really don't get why they're not rerouting everything back via College Green. Are DB worried they'll clog up the entire road?

LXFlyer

TheChrisD wrote: »

Really don't get why they're not rerouting everything back via College Green. Are DB worried they'll clog up the entire road?

Do you think that everything and a 3 minute LUAS will fit?

Bear in mind that most of the Rathmines routes are supposed to return to the Dawson St / Grafton St route too.

Having some different route options isn't a bad thing.

TheQuietFella

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Looks like cyclists aren't included in the traffic that can fully go down Dawson Street (buses and trams only). Seems a bit petty not to include them?

They'll go up there regardless without scant regard for the rules or anyone else!

ArmaniJeanss

TheQuietFella wrote: »

They'll go up there regardless without scant regard for the rules or anyone else!

Very true, I'm doing so myself.

caviardreams

devnull wrote: »

Clearly an error with proof reading on that, looks like it was sent out too quick.

I actually just deleted the second email thinking it must just be a duplicate - I am sure many others did too. If I hadn't read this thread, I would never have realised the second one was actually correct - very poor.

TheChrisD

LXFlyer wrote: »

Do you think that everything and a 3 minute LUAS will fit?

Bear in mind that most of the Rathmines routes are supposed to return to the Dawson St / Grafton St route too.

Having some different route options isn't a bad thing.

Probably not, no, but I'm just curious as to why those routes in particular were selected to be let back through as opposed to the others.

The biggest weirdness is why the 38’s now go through Grafton whereas the other routes that come from the Baggot Street area (37, 39, 70, various X routes) have to go the long way around. Heck, it baffles me why those routes have such a complicated routing outbound (Baggot Street > Pembroke Street > Lesson Street > SSG > Dawson) only to nearly double back on themselves for the Westland Row diversion, when they could just go up Fitzwilliam Street and round Merrion Square to Clare Street instead.

nilescraneo

Does this mean Suffolk Street is open to traffic again? crap if so. So much more pleasant there since it was closed off.

thomasj

nilescraneo wrote:

Does this mean Suffolk Street is open to traffic again? crap if so. So much more pleasant there since it was closed off.

No.

Buses will turn right onto Grafton Street (trinity college) and access college green from there .

There's no access to Suffolk street coming from Nassau Street.

hmmm

Lots of Garda enforcement of the new traffic flows. Why so much effort here and not on the Quays?

StreetLight

hmmm wrote: »

Lots of Garda enforcement of the new traffic flows. Why so much effort here and not on the Quays?

There's no Luas along the Quays.

LXFlyer

TheChrisD wrote: »

Probably not, no, but I'm just curious as to why those routes in particular were selected to be let back through as opposed to the others.

The biggest weirdness is why the 38’s now go through Grafton whereas the other routes that come from the Baggot Street area (37, 39, 70, various X routes) have to go the long way around. Heck, it baffles me why those routes have such a complicated routing outbound (Baggot Street > Pembroke Street > Lesson Street > SSG > Dawson) only to nearly double back on themselves for the Westland Row diversion, when they could just go up Fitzwilliam Street and round Merrion Square to Clare Street instead.

Regarding the Grafton St / Westland Row split, it's pretty obvious to be honest.

The 3 bus routes going via Nassau St and Grafton St are those that continue on to O'Connell Street.

The others all go onwards to the South Quays (with the exception of a small number of peak hour only routes). They can use different options to get to the South Quays from Pearse St.

With regard to serving Dawson St, they are trying to maintain the existing link those routes have with the CBD and St Stephen's Green/Grafton St retail areas - the inbound routes serve those areas, and the demand is clearly there for the service. It's a tough balancing act to be honest.

However, I can see changes happening for some of the routes in due course - as LUAS testing is ramped up this may become necessary.

LXFlyer

nilescraneo wrote: »

Does this mean Suffolk Street is open to traffic again? crap if so. So much more pleasant there since it was closed off.

Grafton Street will be two-way between Nassau St and College Green.

Suffolk St will remain access only from Trinity Street.

alentejo

I think the 15's will also be routed via Dawson and Grafton in the near future.

LXFlyer

alentejo wrote: »

I think the 15's will also be routed via Dawson and Grafton in the near future.

The plan was for the 14, 15, 15a, 15b, 140 and 142 to all return to that routing.

Now whether that will happen or not, given the ongoing situation with the College Green Plaza, remains up in the air.

Personally I think sending perhaps the 15a and 15b via Kildare St and Westland Row might give more choice.

thomasj

alentejo wrote:

I think the 15's will also be routed via Dawson and Grafton in the near future.

I hope not.

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

I hope not.

Why not?

Or do you think no bus route from Rathmines should go further east than the Camden St / Georges St axis?

thomasj

LXFlyer wrote:

Or do you think no bus route from Rathmines should go further east than the Camden St / Georges St axis?

But sure it's going to be duplicating cross city luas from Harcourt street-stephens green.

I never thought I'd say this when the George's street setup for rathmines buses started but I think it works , and like you said it's good having different routes , and we shouldn't be clogging up the Grafton Street bus gate.

I know a good few people that use George's street for rathmines buses and they think it's a great thing.