New Irish Ferries ship

GeneralSherman

So Irish Ferries are building up to announcing the arrival of a new ship to their fleet in October. Anyone heard anything in advance as to which route it will operate on ?

Atlantic Dawn

GeneralSherman wrote: »

So Irish Ferries are building up to announcing the arrival of a new ship to their fleet in October. Anyone heard anything in advance as to which route it will operate on ?

Mid 2018 seems to be the arrival date. Afloat says it will do Dublin Holyhead next summer and do Ireland to France at weekends, not exactly sure how that will work. Nice modern look to it from the 3D pic...

http://afloat.ie/port-news/ferry-news/item/37038-competition-launched-to-name-biggest-new-irish-sea-cruiseferry

Tabnabs

Takes over from the ailing and poorly engineered Epsilon. She's only chartered in, AFAIK.

PauloMN

They have a website for it here:
https://www.bigshipbigname.com/

Looks nice, says it will be the biggest ferry on the Irish sea, but at 195m long, is that not slightly shorter than the Ulysses? Maybe "biggest" refers to capacity rather than size.

The Epsilon - which it seems it will replace - looks more like a freight ship with limited passenger facilities, is that right? I guess the new ship will be better able to handle winter weather especially on the Ireland<->France route.

Irish Steve

Hopefully, it will also be capable of taking walk on passengers, the 02:00 sailing to Holyhead would be a LOT more attractive than going on the 20:00 sailing and having to sit there at the station for hours until the first train.

I have to wonder if the arrival of a much larger ship will be the precursor of the end of the fast ferry service, given how unreliable it is during the winter months.

Tabnabs

Irish Steve wrote: »

I have to wonder if the arrival of a much larger ship will be the precursor of the end of the fast ferry service, given how unreliable it is during the winter months.

I think that when you consider that Stena (IF major competition on this route) have no fast ferry service any more, then surely it's the end of the Jonathan Swift? They might get a good price on chartering her out to the Med or Canaries etc.

LordSutch

Tabnabs wrote: »

I think that when you consider that Stena (IF major competition on this route) have no fast ferry service any more, then surely it's the end of the Jonathan Swift? They might get a good price on chartering her out to the Med or Canaries etc.

It's like we've gone full circle from the slow old ships of yesteryear up to the fast ferries of the 1990s > peaking with the massive/fast super High Speed HSS ... and now we're slowly going back down to big slow ferries again.

Am I right?

PauloMN

LordSutch wrote: »

It's like we've gone full circle from the slow old ships of yesteryear up to the fast ferries of the 1990s > peaking with the massive/fast super High Speed HSS ... and now we're slowly going back down to big slow ferries again.

Am I right?

Fuel costs, reliability and practicality all being issues I guess. Similar story to Concorde - comes to a point as fares are driven down that running certain services just isn't viable anymore.

Irish Steve

Stena never openly talked about it, but on some routes, the commercial drivers wouldn't use the fast ferries, as they didn't get a long enough break period, and were having problems with tachograph records as a result. I think Harwich Hook of Holland was the big issue, as the HSS on that route was about 3 hours, compared to 8 hours on the traditional ferries.

Whatever about operating costs, which were significant, I think the other issue was that the HSS family never did achieve the level of certification that the designers promised in terms of wave height, and I know from painful experience that in a 6 Mtr swell, the ride was not comfortable if it was a beam sea, the roll from side to side was not at all comfortable, especially if you were sitting on the outer edges of the vessel, it was comparable to being in a fast lift, and for anyone that was not a good traveller (like my wife) it was a very unpleasant experience. We did eventually discover a few seats at the back of the lower deck beside the main walkway area that were a lot closer to the centre line, so a lot less movement, but even there, on a rough day, which there were plenty of during the winter months, it could still be a challenging trip. That's no fun if you are looking at a 4 or 5 hour road journey on the other side after the crossing.

The modern ships like Ulysses can't even begin to be compared to the old ships that the HSS and the like replaced, the capacity, loading and offloading times, cabins, general passenger services and the ride quality are light years ahead of what was on offer on things like the Hibernia and The Earl WIlliam and similar.

Yes, the faster journey times of the HSS were nice, but the absolute requirement for me is reliability, which the HSS (and the other fast ferries like Lynx and the Jonathan Swift) just could not deliver on the Irish Sea, for whatever reason. Then the combined effect of fuel prices, the loss of duty free sales and the increased competition from low cost flights meant that the ferries lost their appeal for many people.

That said, my (elderly) parents happily come to Ireland from the South West of the UK by rail and ferry on a regular basis, even though it takes close on 12 hours, because the overall experience is a lot less stressful for them than having to cope with airport security and the like, even though it would be a much shorter time to fly over.

Irish Steve

PauloMN wrote: »

Fuel costs, reliability and practicality all being issues I guess. Similar story to Concorde - comes to a point as fares are driven down that running certain services just isn't viable anymore.

The unspoken issue that was a huge blow to Concorde on the London New York route was 9-11, while it was never openly talked about at the time, BA lost over 50% of their regular passengers on the Concorde service as a result of that one day.

LordSutch

Bring back the St Columba I say!

My memory tells me she was truly great. Spacious, fast-ish (for a big ferry) and she had a cinema too!
Which at the time was unheard of in these waters. I am of course looking back through rose tinted spectacles, so maybe she wasn't as good ad I remember? but in 79' I was very impressed as s passenger, who had experienced several of those old buckets that had sailed the Dunleary-Holyhead route before her ........

neris

Irish Steve wrote: »

Stena never openly talked about it, but on some routes, the commercial drivers wouldn't use the fast ferries, as they didn't get a long enough break period, and were having problems with tachograph records as a result. I think Harwich Hook of Holland was the big issue, as the HSS on that route was about 3 hours, compared to 8 hours on the tradition

alot of trucks will go on the seatruck or P&O to Liverpool as the drivers get a full rest in and can then drive to in one day and be in France that night

BeardySi

Irish Steve wrote: »

The unspoken issue that was a huge blow to Concorde on the London New York route was 9-11, while it was never openly talked about at the time, BA lost over 50% of their regular passengers on the Concorde service as a result of that one day.

Quite regularly spoken about I'd have thought - 911 and not Paris is generally acknowledged as the death blow to Concorde. Aviation market changed overnight yadda yadda...

But I digress...

Claude Wilton

LordSutch wrote: »

Bring back the St Columba I say!

My memory tells me she was truly great. Spacious, fast-ish (for a big ferry) and she had a cinema too!
Which at the time was unheard of in these waters. I am of course looking back through rose tinted spectacles, so maybe she wasn't as good ad I remember? but in 79' I was very impressed as s passenger, who had experienced several of those old buckets that had sailed the Dunleary-Holyhead route before her ........

I used to be a twice yearly sailor on the Columba in the dying days of the old Sealink. Grand aul tub she was too. Combining a pullman ticket on her with a weekend first to Euston wasn't the worst way to go to London and whenever I deal with the black hole of misery that is Dublin Airport the whole sail-rail experience compares well to that.

L1011

BeardySi wrote: »

Quite regularly spoken about I'd have thought - 911 and not Paris is generally acknowledged as the death blow to Concorde. Aviation market changed overnight yadda yadda...

But I digress...

The aviation market impacts are spoken about - the unspoken point was that a large amount of the regular, multiple times a week etc, passengers actually died that day.

L1011

Noticed ads in the papers saying the new name is WB Yeats

Tabnabs

It's a **** name and it already belongs one of the newer INS vessels. They really didn't try very hard on that score.

Bigus

Maybe they should've called it "Celtic mac Celtic face"


It's got two of these MAN engines

loyatemu

They should have given it a woman's name (ships are female after all) but the only female Irish writer I can think of who's really well known is Maeve Binchy, and she's not dead (and possibly not high brow enough compared to Joyce, Yeats etc).

BowWow

loyatemu wrote: »

only female Irish writer I can think of who's really well known is Maeve Binchy, and she's not dead.

Newsflash! - Died 5 years ago........


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeve_Binchy

cruizer101

They had a competition apparently with chance to win free lifetime travel.
They were looking for a writer alright, female would have suited better I think, but definitely not WB Yeats given its usage already

munchkin_utd

loyatemu wrote: »

They should have given it a woman's name (ships are female after all) but the only female Irish writer I can think of who's really well known is Maeve Binchy, and she's not dead (and possibly not high brow enough compared to Joyce, Yeats etc).

firstly, yes she isn't high brow and there's enough nobel laureates for Literature from Ireland, including Yeats, who should take precedence over Maeve Binchy.

As for her name, if you want the ship to be called "Me-vee Binky" by continental people then grand, otherwise go for something like yeats which cannot be completely mispronounced by continental types.

This ship will be doing runs directly to the continent, maybe with brexit more than were originally planned, so having a pronouncable name to non irish/ british/ anglophone people familiar with irish names, should also be a factor.

loyatemu

BowWow wrote: »

Newsflash! - Died 5 years ago........


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeve_Binchy

and there I was waiting for her next novel...

As for her name, if you want the ship to be called "Me-vee Binky" by continental people then grand, otherwise go for something like yeats which cannot be completely mispronounced by continental types.

meh, Britanny Ferries don't seem too worried about English speakers calling their ships "Bretag-ny" or "Armory-Queue" etc.

How about the "Nora Barnacle" after Joyce's muse, she had a suitably nautical surname.

Tabnabs

Can't get more foreign sounding than Countess Markievicz

Probably should have just picked a Cypriot name to match her home port...

Vic_08

Tabnabs wrote: »

Takes over from the ailing and poorly engineered Epsilon. She's only chartered in, AFAIK.

Epsilon is neither ailing or poorly engineered, that class of ferry are very well liked for their large freight capacity and low fuel burn. The only issue with them is the lack of bow doors which increases loading times.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Hopefully, it will also be capable of taking walk on passengers, the 02:00 sailing to Holyhead would be a LOT more attractive than going on the 20:00 sailing and having to sit there at the station for hours until the first train.

I have to wonder if the arrival of a much larger ship will be the precursor of the end of the fast ferry service, given how unreliable it is during the winter months.

The Stena service with similar sailing times (02.15 and 15.10 from Dublin) takes foot passengers and runs 7 days so there is little benefit to IF also taking passengers.

The fast ferry does earn it's keep, particularly in the peak tourist season but there is definitely a question over it's retention as Jonathan Swift is 18 years old now and won't be financially viable forever. IF have bought a slightly younger fast ferry of a similar design which is also a little larger, this is currently on charter to the US navy. I don't know if the cost of converting it back to passenger use would be economical though, even if they wanted to use it to replace JS.


The shipyard building the new IF ship has a webcam in their assembly hall. http://31.209.185.103/view/viewer_index.shtml?id=125901

LiamoSail

Vic_08 wrote: »

Epsilon is neither ailing or poorly engineered, that class of ferry are very well liked for their large freight capacity and low fuel burn. The only issue with them is the lack of bow doors which increases loading times.

They were built on a budget and it really shows. Horrible ships to work on

Nekarsulm

Irish Steve wrote: »

The unspoken issue that was a huge blow to Concorde on the London New York route was 9-11, while it was never openly talked about at the time, BA lost over 50% of their regular passengers on the Concorde service as a result of that one day.

loyatemu wrote: »

and there I was waiting for her next novel...



meh, Britanny Ferries don't seem too worried about English speakers calling their ships "Bretag-ny" or "Armory-Queue" etc.

How about the "Nora Barnacle" after Joyce's muse, she had a suitably nautical surname.

I entered that Comp. with "The Maria Edgeworth" but probably too obscure for them.

Irish Steve

Vic_08 wrote: »

The Stena service with similar sailing times (02.15 and 15.10 from Dublin) takes foot passengers and runs 7 days so there is little benefit to IF also taking passengers.

There would be 2 advantages as far as I'm concerned. The first is that it would be a better alternative if the Swift is cancelled in the afternoon, at present, if the 1700 crossing ex Holyhead is cancelled, the next available crossing is the Ulysses at 02 or thereabouts, if so hopefully, the new ship will be able to offer an alternative at around 20:00, which would be a lot more acceptable, especially for foot passengers that have got to Holyhead by rail. While the crossing at 20 is longer, it would also open up later train times into Holyhead that would be more attractive for some of the longer distances.

I am aware that I could use Stena from Dublin, but for preference, mainly on the Southern route, I use Irish Ferries, mainly because the journey time from Pembroke is better than the Fishguard route, and using Stena will complicate frequent traveller bonuses.

Dr Brown

Here it is.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0102/930644-icg-investing-165-2m-in-new-ferry-for-dublin-holyhead/

Ferry operator Irish Continental Group (ICG) is investing €165.2m in a new cruise ferry that will operate on Irish Ferries' Dublin-Holyhead route.
The new vessel will be able to accommodate 1,800 passengers and crew, with capacity for 330 freight units per sailing.
The ferry is expected to be delivered by mid-2020 and, once in operation, will be the largest cruise ferry in the world in terms of vehicle capacity.
It is expected to replace the schedule of the MV Ulysses, which in turn will replace the currently chartered vessel MV Epsilon in the Irish Ferries fleet.

Tabnabs

Dr Brown wrote: »

Here it is.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0102/930644-icg-investing-165-2m-in-new-ferry-for-dublin-holyhead/

Ferry operator Irish Continental Group (ICG) is investing €165.2m in a new cruise ferry that will operate on Irish Ferries' Dublin-Holyhead route.
The new vessel will be able to accommodate 1,800 passengers and crew, with capacity for 330 freight units per sailing.
The ferry is expected to be delivered by mid-2020 and, once in operation, will be the largest cruise ferry in the world in terms of vehicle capacity.
It is expected to replace the schedule of the MV Ulysses, which in turn will replace the currently chartered vessel MV Epsilon in the Irish Ferries fleet.

Ulysses can carry 2,166 passengers and crew, 1,342 cars and 240 trucks. She has 228 passenger berths.

Never accept any "facts" about the marine industry from the Irish Times (or RTE). How hard is it to check Wikipedia...? :mad:

devnull

Irish Steve wrote: »

There would be 2 advantages as far as I'm concerned. The first is that it would be a better alternative if the Swift is cancelled in the afternoon, at present, if the 1700 crossing ex Holyhead is cancelled, the next available crossing is the Ulysses at 02 or thereabouts, if so hopefully, the new ship will be able to offer an alternative at around 20:00, which would be a lot more acceptable, especially for foot passengers that have got to Holyhead by rail. While the crossing at 20 is longer, it would also open up later train times into Holyhead that would be more attractive for some of the longer distances.

I am aware that I could use Stena from Dublin, but for preference, mainly on the Southern route, I use Irish Ferries, mainly because the journey time from Pembroke is better than the Fishguard route, and using Stena will complicate frequent traveller bonuses.

I once got moved from the main Stena ship as it was cancelled to a small ship a few years ago as a SailRail passenger, can't remember what ship it was but it was not really cut out for anything more than truckers, ended up at Dublin Port in the early hours of the morning in the soaking rain trying to get a cab as they locked the doors as soon as I collected the luggage.

I normally sail on the Ulysses though, occasionally the fast ferry but not very often, depends on timings and capacity, look forward to seeing this new ship, although seems whilst it can take more vehicles it can take less people according to the details released?

Vic_08

Tabnabs wrote: »

Never accept any "facts" about the marine industry from the Irish Times (or RTE). How hard is it to check Wikipedia...? :mad:

Add to that the fact about WB Yeats replacing Ulysees is also rather unlikely.

WB Yeats is already open for bookings for Dublin - Cherbourg from 12 July onwards for summer 18.


From what has been written on more reliable sources the plan for 2018 at least is to use her on Dublin - France in the peak summer season and Dublin - Holyhead the rest of the year with Epsilon running Dublin - Cherbourg full time from October and Oscar Wilde laid up meaning no Rosslare - France sailings after the peak period.

devnull

Here's the official announcement:
http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/icg1/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=500&newsid=962216

The link gives full details on capacity but hard to reproduce by copy-paste.

Irish Continental Group plc invests €165.2 million to build a new cruise ferry for Dublin - Holyhead route

Irish Continental Group plc ("ICG") has entered into an agreement, with the German company Flensburger Schiffbau-Gesselschaft & Co.KG ("FSG"), whereby FSG has agreed to build a cruise ferry for ICG at a contract price of €165.2 million. Upon completion, it will be the largest cruise ferry in the world in terms of vehicle capacity.

The cruise ferry will accommodate 1,800 passengers and crew, with capacity for 5,610 freight lane metres, which provides the capability to carry 330 freight units per sailing. Overall, it will effectively be a 50% increase in peak freight capacity compared to the MV Ulysses.

The Agreement between ICG and FSG provides that the cruise ferry is scheduled for delivery before Mid-2020. Twenty percent of the contract price will be paid in instalments during the construction period. The balance of 80% will be paid on delivery. ICG intend to utilise credit facilities to finance the cruise ferry. The pre-delivery instalment payments to FSG will be protected by means of bank guarantees.

This cruise ferry will be designed and built to the highest standards of cruise shipping, and equipped with efficiency, comfort and capacity in mind. Emissions scrubber technology (included in the above price) and ballast water systems will meet current and known future environmental regulations and will deliver optimal fuel consumption while minimising related costs. The cruise ferry will be powered by four main engines delivering 33,600 KW of power which will ensure a high degree of service reliability equal to the MV Ulysses which is currently the most reliable ship to ever operate on the Irish Sea.

The cruise ferry is being built specifically for Irish Ferries Dublin - Holyhead services. It is expected to replace the schedule of the MV Ulysses, which in turn will replace the currently chartered vessel MV Epsilon in the fleet. This will allow for the deployment of the W.B. Yeats (arriving Mid 2018) full-time on the direct Ireland - France route alongside the MV Oscar Wilde. The cruise ferry will also adhere to Ice Class specification which allows for a wide geographic area of operation.

Freight capacity will be provided over five decks. Uniquely, the vessel has been designed for three tier freight bow loading to allow for efficient loading/unloading and quick turnaround times. Passenger facilities will be spread over three decks. In addition to a superb choice of bars, restaurants (to include both á la carte and self-service options), special provision has been made for premium Club Class passengers, with a dedicated lounge featuring private access direct from the vehicle decks. A choice of state-of -the-art entertainment options and cinemas, dedicated facilities for freight drivers, as well as many retail outlets will ensure that all passengers will be comfortable and engaged throughout their journey.

This new cruise ferry provides Irish Ferries with a significant increase in both its freight & tourism carrying capacity on the fast-growing Dublin - Holyhead route.

"This investment underpins the confidence the Group has in the markets in which we operate. Alongside the recent investment in the MV W.B. Yeats, it brings our total investment to €315m for these two vessels designed for our operations on the Irish Sea. The construction of a cruise ferry of this size will offer both additional capacity and an enhanced experience for both our tourism and freight customers. This infrastructural investment enhances "the bridge" to the UK & Continental Europe that is a vital part of the continued success of Ireland's open economy."

Vic_08

Ah, now it makes sense. This is the option for the second new build that they are now confirming as on order for 2020.

A lot of new vessls due for Irish Sea routes in the next few years with these and 2 or 3 new Stena ships likely as well.

Dr Brown

I don't see how they can call it a "cruise ferry" when its a car ferry.

Tabnabs

Dr Brown wrote: »

I don't see how they can call it a "cruise ferry" when its a car ferry.

And makes most of its money from freight.

PauloMN

Is "cruise ferry" not just a modern day expression for a conventional ferry i.e. not a fast ferry? Just a marketing term I guess.

Cookie_Monster

Tabnabs wrote: »

Never accept any "facts" about the marine industry from the Irish Times (or RTE). How hard is it to check Wikipedia...? :mad:

well it has a much higher truck capacity, what's total vehicle capacity?

it's lane meterage is much higher at 5,610 v 4,101

Atlantic Dawn

Decent documentary on Ulysses that was on Discovery Channel before, a big challenge with the design was keeping the draft of the ship low enough to be able to dock in Dublin yet making it double the size of Isle Of Inishmore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyCzDc-LVRE

Tabnabs

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well it has a much higher truck capacity, what's total vehicle capacity?

it's lane meterage is much higher at 5,610 v 4,101

Entirely my mistake, I thought the article referred to the new IF ship, not the newest, new one.

Bigus

Thanks Athlantic, for that Ulysses documentary link , well worth a look

Atlantic Dawn

Bigus wrote: »

Thanks Athlantic, for that Ulysses documentary link , well worth a look

Yes it was interesting at the end the captain stressing the importance as an island nation that ships like that should remain Irish flagged and crewed, shortly after the company registered most of their ships in Cyprus and recrewed them, not the captains decision.

Fann Linn

PauloMN wrote: »

Is "cruise ferry" not just a modern day expression for a conventional ferry i.e. not a fast ferry? Just a marketing term I guess.

I'd say it changed about 20 years ago when ferries became cruise ships, pursers became 'onboard services managers' and passengers became guests.

All just marketing along with barmen in waist coats and dickie bows.

knucklehead6

Fann Linn wrote: »

I'd say it changed about 20 years ago when ferries became cruise ships, pursers became 'onboard services managers' and passengers became guests.

All just marketing along with barmen in waist coats and dickie bows.

I would've thought it was an effort to differentiate between the likes of the HHS/Jonathon Swift Fast ferries and the slower ships, without calling them the Slow Boat.

Tow

I read this and thought 'What is a Cruise Ferry?'. Wikipedia came up with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiseferry

Dublin (Dun Laoghaire) to Holyhead day trip on the 'mail boat', the height of sophistication for a family day trip in the 70-80's. Brings back memories...

Pat Dunne

Tow wrote: »

I read this and thought 'What is a Cruise Ferry?'. Wikipedia came up with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiseferry

Dublin (Dun Laoghaire) to Holyhead day trip on the 'mail boat', the height of sophistication for a family day trip in the 70-80's. Brings back memories...

And the train the Llandudno happy days.

L1011

Tabnabs wrote: »

Never accept any "facts" about the marine industry from the Irish Times (or RTE). How hard is it to check Wikipedia...? :mad:

The statement is that it has a higher vehicle capacity. This is true - it has significantly more lane space for vehicles. Checking Wikipedia is not a good idea in the media, really...

It has less surplus capacity for foot passengers because there are effectively no foot passengers anymore. Hence the total passenger capacity is down.

http://www.icg.ie/documents/2018/2018-01-02-Company-Announcement.pdf

Irish Steve

There's very little difference in the passenger capacity, (<100) between them, and while there are fewer foot passengers as such from Rail now, there are more on coaches that travel with the ferry. The second large ferry does however represent a significant increase in passenger capacity, as the Epsilon that will be replaced does not carry any foot passengers at all.

Part of the reason for the changes are the significant cost of rail travel in the UK, but an equal factor is that the section from Holyhead to Chester and Crewe is a slow speed line when compared to other routes, so the journey time to a lot of areas is lengthy, and the road connections to Holyhead are massively improved over what they used to be, so it's more realistic to use road connections than it used to be. The rail operators have also contributed to their own decline by no longer providing convenient connection times that tie in with the ferry crossings. Then there are the issues of poorly advertised services on the Irish side for foot passengers, there are buses to the main stations, but that's all.

The other very significant factor of course is the easy availability of cheap flights from Ryanair and others, if you have a choice of a 12 hour total journey time by ferry and road/rail, or a 40 minute flight that operates several times a day, and often for a lot less total cost, that will be an influencing factor.

That said, there are people who don't see the times as a problem, my (elderly) parents much prefer the train and ferry option to get to Dublin, simply because the airports are so much hassle in comparison to getting on a train.

Most of the above is moot however, the major justification for the new ship is freight, and that is the major earner for Irish Ferries, although there are still significant numbers of cars and other non commercial vehicles using the service.

In the very long term, it would be nice to dream of a high speed rail tunnel linking Ireland with the UK and onward to Europe, but the costs, technical difficulties and political reluctance means that it won't happen in my lifetime, and probably not my children's lifetime, unless there is a massive move away from using fossil fuels for shipping and moving freight over long distances.

Tabnabs

W.B. Yeats (hull) has been launched





The rest of her is on the way too.

Atlantic Dawn

All fur coat and no knickers...registered in bloody Limassol too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9SE0CxuMxg

Bigus

I was wondering how they were going to make the deadline and also how the whole thing was going to fit in the shipbuilders webcam shed.

Thanks for the pics above, Tabnabs makes great sense now .