4 Rail Lines ABout to Close

ClovenHoof

Yes I know about the bad management and rubbish marketing and so on. But the fact remains is that in today's Indo the Rail Unions made it clear that either they get Ogle's Gravy on top of their already excellent salaries and perks, and it is to be funded by closing a sizable sections of the rail network.

I know a lot of people on this board have an affection for CIE rail staff gained from listenting to them wax on lyically about how the kettle in one of the signal boxes on the Enfield branch was stolen while the signal man 'Arthur Gorman...Church of Ireland man' was getting the milk from a cow he had in a field beside the cross gates and so on. Therefore you refuse to in anyway see the role CIE Unions have played in the inside-job demolition of our rail network which was essentially weponised by Brendan Ogle and ILDA who destroyed railfreight forever, but some of you have to even accept now that you can't defend them any longer with the latest 'play ball' comments and the sacrifice of these rail lines needed for the ball to be played.

Think beyond CIE, there are other options. We need rail public transport to survive beyond providing a farewell celebration for the IRRS.

end of the road

hold on. CIE have been wanting to close 3 of these routes for decades and have shown them the ultimate contempt in turn. they wanted sligo gone as well but the people there faught back.
reading the article in the indo i saw nowhere where the unions stated "you must close lines and give us money" but if i missed that bit then maybe someone could quote it for me as i can't see anything along those lines in the article? i also don't need to explain that a union's job is to seek the best terms and conditions for it's members whether one agrees with them or not.
it's IE who want the lines gone for their own, possibly railway-political or historical reasons, i'm unsure. and the NTA couldn't seem to care a less, they probably want the lot gone as well for their own "reasons"
even if the unions never saught a pay rise something else would have IE threatening closure of lines because that is what they want.
in relation to ballybroaphy i thought it's passenger subsidy was 400 euro a few months ago, how has it now jumped to 760 euro? i gave my opinion on the original claim back then and the same stands now for this new number.
to be fair we have known that ballybroaphy limerick is beyond saving but the rest (ennis athenry won't close) goarey rosslare has good usage from my experience and limerick junction waterford has been mostly renewed i believe and can be brought back from the brink.
even if these lines go it won't be enough, we will be back here again as we all know.

LuckyLloyd

The OP and title is a gross misrepresentation of the situation imo.

Infini

It's the company who management cant manage for shyte along with their dithering friends that wants them closed not the unions if anything that OP post just reeks of "hate the union for the sake of it" argument again. Its an old and frankly stale argument at this point start focusing on the real problems for a change not bandwagon horsecrap that just seems to be the default position of EVERY GODDAMN TRANSPORT argument who doesnt like the situation.

You want to know why things are this bad? Government owes €170m+ to the company through lost subversion and other cuts but would rather play politics instead of just paying for the goddamn infrastructure and actually getting off their hole and fixing the problem they helped create. If these lines aren't up to scratch why isn't their some plan to try and FIX the problem for a change? Why look to close Rosslare as well for that matter that would leave Wexford without a train even and thats a big enough town?

Rail is actually viable the problem is there's never any joined up thinking to build decent sized planned towns along these lines to support them.

ClovenHoof

end of the road wrote: »

hold on. CIE have been wanting to close 3 of these routes for decades

But the Unions have finally given them the leverage to do it at last. Not the "Dublin Gubbermint".

This is it. Clear as day.

L1011

Infini wrote: »

You want to know why things are this bad? Government owes €170m+ to the company through lost subversion and other cuts

No, they don't.

Subvention removed is not "owed" - its gone. Services were cut, costs were cut (but not enough).

The unions can bang on about imaginary money but its simply not there.

end of the road

ClovenHoof wrote: »

But the Unions have finally given them the leverage to do it at last. Not the "Dublin Gubbermint".
This is it. Clear as day.

no CIE have had the will and the leverage to close these lines all along as the relevant people who make the decisians will always believe their word. at the moment it's just threats but they will be acted on and that will be down to IE only, nobody else. it's why the users need to act at every threat and take any threat of closure as definite until stated otherwise.
what IE are doing now is simply trying to blame the unions for something they have always wanted to, and will eventually do. if they couldn't blame the unions, they would blame someone else. it's always someone elses fault. this is the same company who are looking to sell the land which currently hold sidings on within the dublin area, which will likely be needed in the future. this is the same company who shipped it's main maintenence half way down the country out of dublin where it should have stayed as most of the trains go there, all because "reasons"

dowlingm

Limerick-Ballybrophy was a rail service which went bustituted (a frequent occurrence) the bus had to wait at stations because it was quicker than the service it replaced. IE avoided using it to bypass works between Ballybrophy and Killonan, relying on buses instead. The manual nature of the line means it has much higher staffing costs. That is survived this long should be a miracle inspiring of pilgrimages.

Ennis-Athenry was done on the cheap (even at 100mill), flooded just before it opened, the existing Limerick-Ennis track still remained vulnerable to flooding. Bus Eireann put a gun to the line's head on opening by starting an express service which did not have to meander through Athenry or stop at deserted stations in Ardrahan etc.

dowlingm

end of the road wrote: »

this is the same company who shipped it's main maintenence half way down the country out of dublin where it should have stayed as most of the trains go there, all because "reasons"

Having suburban train maintenance in the outer suburbs, where most of its diagrams start from, and locomotive maintenance remaining in Inchicore, where most of their passenger diagrams start from (or Connolly) makes more sense than you give credit for. If Maynooth is electrified at any stage I think a downsizing of Fairview is called for too.

ClovenHoof

Infini wrote: »

It's the company who management cant manage for shyte along with their dithering friends that wants them closed not the unions if anything that OP post just reeks of "hate the union for the sake of it" argument again.

So what you are saying is the that closing the rail network down to one or two lines with drivers on a half a million a year to match manager's salaries is how we avoid the 'race to the da bottom me oul comrade'

The only race to the bottom at Irish Rail is the closing of rail lines, freight and passenger services while the wages have MASSIVELY increased in tandem with the imaginary victim complexes of the the NBRU.

end of the road

ClovenHoof wrote: »

So what you are saying is the that closing the rail network down to one or two lines with drivers on a half a million a year to match manager's salaries is how we avoid the 'race to the da bottom me oul comrade'

that's not what he is saying, but of course you know that. you are just twisting what he said to fit your anti-union byass.
this is a thread about 4 lines which IE are threatening to close, lines which IE have been wanting to close for decades because of their own dislike for the areas served. nobody is interested in rants about "ja unions"

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The only race to the bottom at Irish Rail is the closing of rail lines, freight and passenger services

agreed but nobody is going to stop it, government, NTA or ie because it's all in their interests to see the network gone.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

while the wages have MASSIVELY increased in tandem with the imaginary victim complexes of the the NBRU.

the wages have increased with the norms of the uk and other countries. you are not going to get minimum wage train drivers, if you want to attract people to a responsible job like that you have to pay.

dowlingm wrote: »

Having suburban train maintenance in the outer suburbs, where most of its diagrams start from, and locomotive maintenance remaining in Inchicore, where most of their passenger diagrams start from (or Connolly) makes more sense than you give credit for. If Maynooth is electrified at any stage I think a downsizing of Fairview is called for too.

in theory i completely agree with you. but i am unsure as to whether right now we have a big enough suburban network to justify 2 depots and especially way out of the way of dublin. also, all long distance units are maintained out in the suburbs as well, which seems to cause a lot of different problems, some which the users will experience and which does not help or benefit them or the railway.
depots at dublin cork and limerick should be enough for the small operation we have in my view.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

lines which IE have been wanting to close for decades because of their own dislike for the areas served.

No, they've been threatening to close them for years because they've been losing money for years

This one has to be the most insane claim I've seen on here in a while.

Infini

L1011 wrote: »

No, they don't.

Subvention removed is not "owed" - its gone. Services were cut, costs were cut (but not enough).

The unions can bang on about imaginary money but its simply not there.

Actually part of the reason these lines are under threat IS because of the government subvention from the last few years. While the drop in passenger numbers certainly was a factor this was compounded by the fact that they butchered the funding to such a degree that no amount of cost savings or cutbacks was gonna keep things going.

As far as things go it IS owed monies because from that report a while back if the money isnt paid after a certain period then they wont be allowed to and it would mean closures anyways.

Putting aside the OPs ridiculously misleading title for the thread these problems have been going on a long time its down to a general inability to think long term or look at serious redesigns of the rail network in some parts. The same short term toxic politics that has compounded the issues is also prevalent in the management of some of the semi states as and some of it is ridiculous.

Some of these managers do not listen to their own staff, sometimes issues get reported over and over for ridiculous amounts of time and only when someone makes a claim or has an accident is someone round quick enough to actually do something about it. With some of them you'd swear you were back in school its ridiculous. This doesnt mean everyone is bad but the problem is the ones who have the power are the ones who do feck all and make things worse.

Lets be honest here the unions are gonna make a claim for a wage rise expecially when passengers levels are back above boom time levels and there's less staff about and more pressure is put on the remaining staff that's the way things work. The problem here is that the OP is mistakenly believing that these lines are gonna be closed because of a pay claim. They're not. They're trying to close them because useless managers and bad politics want to get rid of them and run the place down so they can sell off whats left on the cheap. We've seen enough closures to know that some of them are ridiculous and others would work if there was actual will to fix or redesign the inefficiencies in the network.

L1011

Infini wrote: »

As far as things go it IS owed monies because from that report a while back if the money isnt paid after a certain period then they wont be allowed to and it would mean closures anyways.

The ability for some notional post-fact subsidy to not breach state aid rules doesn't mean its "owed money". Its not owed and its not getting paid.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

No, they've been threatening to close them for years because they've been losing money for years

sadly it's nothing to do with losing money.
once these lines go, they will lose money. even once the lot outside dublin is gone they will still be losing money. no amount of closures now will stop the losses or reduce them. all that could be closed to bring savings went in the 50s 60s and 70s. the whole network is losing money currently it seems.

L1011 wrote: »

This one has to be the most insane claim I've seen on here in a while.

unfortunately not. i wish it was an insane claim, it would be so much easier if it was.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

unfortunately not. i wish it was an insane claim, it would be so much easier if it was.

Prove it. In detail.

You've made what should be a very simple claim to prove, if true.

Infini

L1011 wrote: »

The ability for some notional post-fact subsidy to not breach state aid rules doesn't mean its "owed money". Its not owed and its not getting paid.

Yeah and what happen's then? You dont pay for things properly then you lose it then you never see it again.

The rail is an infrastructure. It not treated as such as the government over the years would change the amount of funding as it suited itself rather than be consistent.

You get what you pay for if they dont fix the hole then that means people lose their rail links and then noone has anything then.

Think about it this is a state owned company who's losses are partially a result of insufficient funding of subvention even though these services didn't see a major cut in trains just their sizes. The companies resources were used to plug the funding but now those resources are nearly gone. If it doesn't get sorted then the company goes to the wall and the state is forced to pay out ANYWAYS but instead of in installments its forced to shell out in one go as since the state is the owner its liable for any outstanding financial losses. So yes it IS owed money.

L1011

Infini wrote: »

Yeah and what happen's then? You dont pay for things properly then you lose it then you never see it again.

The rail is an infrastructure. It not treated as such as the government over the years would change the amount of funding as it suited itself rather than be consistent.

You get what you pay for if they dont fix the hole then that means people lose their rail links and then noone has anything then.

Think about it this is a state owned company who's losses are partially a result of insufficient funding of subvention even though these services didn't see a major cut in trains just their sizes. The companies resources were used to plug the funding but now those resources are nearly gone. If it doesn't get sorted then the company goes to the wall and the state is forced to pay out ANYWAYS but instead of in installments its forced to shell out in one go as since the state is the owner its liable for any outstanding financial losses. So yes it IS owed money.

You don't understand the concept of money being owed. There is no outstanding entry on a balance sheet awaiting payment/repayment, just some notional concept that the subvention might have been paid if it wasn't cut. Nothing is owed.

You also don't understand the concept of bankruptcy, or the ownership structure of Irish Rail.

Nermal

Infini wrote: »

Rail is actually viable the problem is there's never any joined up thinking to build decent sized planned towns along these lines to support them.

LOL here's the argument taken to extremes, the rails are in the right place, it's the towns that are wrong

Funny how every solution put forward to stop rural trains losing a pile of money involves spending a pile of money.

end of the road

Nermal wrote: »

LOL here's the argument taken to extremes, the rails are in the right place, it's the towns that are wrong

Funny how every solution put forward to stop rural trains losing a pile of money involves spending a pile of money.

there are no rural trains, they went years ago. most trains in the country lose money, in fact trains around the world lose money but are recognised as a public service. as that's what they are. attracting people to public transport who otherwise wouldn't bother (something we do need to do a hell of a lot better at in relation to our railways)
suggesting the building of towns around existing infrastructure is actually a very very smart suggestion. it's so obvious in fact that it's incompetents that it hasn't happened and been encouraged to happen.

Isambard

i'd say you could argue that a train from Limerick to Galway or Waterford or a train from Dublin to Rosslare is a Public Service. I doubt you could say that of the Nenagh line though and I'd say it is doomed this time around to join the Waterford Rosslare line in eternal limbo, a limbo that still costs money ,eroding the "savings" from closing it.

Taytosnax

Agree that not just Irish Rail but CIE as a whole needs to be liquidated.

Replace Irish Rail and Bus Eireann with an integrated transport company that uses rail as the backbone for long distance services, leave the coach services to the private sector unless there aren't practical options such as Donegal or Letterkenny services.

Failing that get Translink to take over the new company, they know what they are doing.

Rootsblower

How did unions kill off DART underground?

Taytosnax

They haven't. Politicians have kicked the proverbial can down the road. Unless the OP has some proof as to how they have? Otherwise it's just the OP's opinion.

Rootsblower

Taytosnax wrote: »

They haven't. Politicians have kicked the proverbial can down the road. Unless the OP has some proof as to how they have? Otherwise it's just the OP's opinion.

It's common misconception that the union's impede the delivery of new services on Irish Rail. Myself and my colleagues as train drivers want to see increases in the service levels as it means more jobs and therefore increased job security which is the goal of all trade unions. In my depot alone on various occasions staff have proposed timetable increases through better staff utilisation only to be rebuffed by management with the usual excuses of its not possible because off fuel costs, no trainsets etc.

dowlingm

Isambard wrote: »

i'd say you could argue that a train from Limerick to Galway or Waterford or a train from Dublin to Rosslare is a Public Service. I doubt you could say that of the Nenagh line though and I'd say it is doomed this time around to join the Waterford Rosslare line in eternal limbo, a limbo that still costs money ,eroding the "savings" from closing it.

Public transportation is a public service. There is no specific entitlement to a mode of transport. Rail makes most sense where it is faster than road (Mayo, Kerry) or can carry large numbers of people or goods efficiently (Cork-Dublin, suburban, Ballina, Tara Mines). I would rather IE concentrate its resources on what it is best at, and have Government support them in that endeavour, than retain a line like Nenagh branch or Wexford Quay-Rosslare because of "parity of esteem" especially when the bus is actually superior to rail on that routing.

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

Public transportation is a public service. There is no specific entitlement to a mode of transport. Rail makes most sense where it is faster than road (Mayo, Kerry) or can carry large numbers of people or goods efficiently (Cork-Dublin, suburban, Ballina, Tara Mines). I would rather IE concentrate its resources on what it is best at, and have Government support them in that endeavour, than retain a line like Nenagh branch or Wexford Quay-Rosslare because of "parity of esteem" especially when the bus is actually superior to rail on that routing.

the bus is not superior between wexford quay and rosslare. what limited service that does seem to exist takes double the time. funnily enough that section of line does have some bit of usership and removing it is unlikely to save anything.
the only line on that list which is beyond saving is the ballybroaphy branch and that is down to the decades of mismanagement and the failure to bring up the infrastructure to the standard it's supposed to be at, dispite the money spent on that.
those who use rail services will not be forced into using inferior bus services, which do not, cannot and will not meet our needs no matter what. 99% of our network is viable dispite motor way competition.

Isambard

exactly how is the train quicker than the road in Kerry? For many people wanting to get from the Limerick direction to Tralee (capital of Kerry) the road is far faster.

Jamie2k9

The whole line closure is just a red herring, it won't happen this year and even less chance in 2018.

monument

This is a general warning to both sides:

Follow the rules and act civil to each other, cut out the pro/anti union / Irish Rail etc claims and counter claims and actually focus on arguments.

Nobody is going to be sanctioned for having views but you will be for name calling, getting otherwise uncivil etc

-- moderator

marno21

I don't agree with shutting Rosslare-Gorey or Ennis-Athenry. The former in particular would set a dangerous precedent and is not necessary.

Limerick-Ballybrophy is indefensible. €500 subvention per passenger journey is obscene. When we get to the stage that it would be cheaper to individually taxi passengers it is ridiculous. I wouldn't abandon the line though because parts of it may become useful in the future. The M7 killed any hope it had, along with how little there is in Limerick city centre and the state of the connecting bus service. A proper bus service Nenagh-Birdhill-Castleconnell-UL-City Centre would be as fast and serve Castletroy which the train doesn't. And wouldn't require the subvention. I think there's merit for a morning/evening Nenagh-Birdhill-Castleconnell-Raheen service also.

Limerick Junction-Waterford should not close. The NTA should tell Irish Rail to cop the **** on and run a proper service on it for a trial period of a year or two and see how it works. The lack of a Sunday service and deplorable timetable along with the overall lack of services makes little wonder for poor passenger figures. The state of the N24 is another mark in favour of it.

Del.Monte

marno21 wrote: »

I don't agree with shutting Rosslare-Gorey or Ennis-Athenry. The former in particular would set a dangerous precedent and is not necessary.

Limerick-Ballybrophy is indefensible. €500 subvention per passenger journey is obscene. When we get to the stage that it would be cheaper to individually taxi passengers it is ridiculous. I wouldn't abandon the line though because parts of it may become useful in the future. The M7 killed any hope it had, along with how little there is in Limerick city centre and the state of the connecting bus service. A proper bus service Nenagh-Birdhill-Castleconnell-UL-City Centre would be as fast and serve Castletroy which the train doesn't. And wouldn't require the subvention. I think there's merit for a morning/evening Nenagh-Birdhill-Castleconnell-Raheen service also.

Limerick Junction-Waterford should not close. The NTA should tell Irish Rail to cop the **** on and run a proper service on it for a trial period of a year or two and see how it works. The lack of a Sunday service and deplorable timetable along with the overall lack of services makes little wonder for poor passenger figures. The state of the N24 is another mark in favour of it.

The lack of a Sunday service on the Waterford/Limerick Junction line for decades has helped destroy it.

The less than useless timetable on the route now makes it unuseable. I suspect that carryings on the DART might fall off a bit if the first train from the suburbs didn't arrive in Dublin until 11.26 with the return train at 16.25. Too late for workers, students and too lengthy for shoppers - and the return working too early - who is the service aimed at?

CIE should be removed as the train operator and a contract awarded to another operator - won't happen though.

dowlingm

marno21 wrote: »

Limerick Junction-Waterford should not close. The NTA should tell Irish Rail to cop the **** on and run a proper service on it for a trial period of a year or two and see how it works. The lack of a Sunday service and deplorable timetable along with the overall lack of services makes little wonder for poor passenger figures. The state of the N24 is another mark in favour of it.

Quite a bit could be done for Limerick Junction-Waterford but as long as the Tipperary-Waterford West track is manual gates and ETS, it is always going to be on the hit list. A lot of trackwork has been done east of Tipperary in the last 6 years (CWR/concrete sleepers) but the loops at Tipp and Carrick on Suir are gone which has reduced the flexibility of scheduling on the line.

One issue to watch is wagon maintenance - if that leaves Limerick depot, then that takes out some non-revenue movements to and from Waterford.

dowlingm

Del.Monte wrote: »

The lack of a Sunday service on the Waterford/Limerick Junction line for decades has helped destroy it.

...

CIE should be removed as the train operator and a contract awarded to another operator - won't happen though.

I have thought for some time that if it is necessary to close LJ-Waterford one day a week, Saturday is surely the day to do it, since Sunday would allow people working in cities and coming home for weekends, college students, etc. to get back to where they need to be on Monday.

Even if a different train operator was assigned, this doesn't help LJ-Waterford specifically - the track operator would presumably still have to levy significant access charges commensurate with the staff costs of opening gates and handling ETS tokens.

Isambard

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The whole line closure is just a red herring, it won't happen this year and even less chance in 2018.

I think the Ballybrophy line may go this time round and then next time round another and so on and so on. It's no way to run a railway

dowlingm

A look at some of the train stations on the Wicklow line shows that town planners do not help the continuance of train service. Look at all the open/institutional space beside Gorey station, while the town sprawls into the outskirts. Look at the Tesco lobbed down beside Arklow Station, while the town has been allowed to sprawl north of the river well away from the station/rail line (but near the M11). The platforms are 130m long which means that slots from Greystones in are being occupied by trains which should be 170m long.

tabbey

dowlingm wrote: »

the loops at Tipp and Carrick on Suir are gone

And the loop at Cahir.

Jamie2k9

Isambard wrote: »

I think the Ballybrophy line may go this time round and then next time round another and so on and so on. It's no way to run a railway

Not anytime soon, we are gearing up for a GE and if that doesn't happen the FG/FF support review will be due towards end of 2018.

It will survive another while.

tabbey

dowlingm wrote: »

if it is necessary to close LJ-Waterford one day a week, Saturday is surely the day to do it,

Actually I think Saturday is busier on this line, with people going to Waterford for the day, shopping or whatever. If there was a better service, there might also be families taking day trips to Limerick also, like there was in the past.

Jamie2k9

if it is necessary to close LJ-Waterford one day a week, Saturday is surely the day to do it,

Tuesday would be best day to close if it enabled a Sunday service.

91wx763

tabbey wrote: »

And the loop at Cahir.

Loop at Cahir went donkeys years ago. Loop at Carrick "temporarily" removed as the points were life expired. Signal box is still manned (childed on one shift !!!) and still releases a staff just in case there's one out.......

tabbey

tabbey wrote: »

Actually I think Saturday is busier on this line, with people going to Waterford for the day, shopping or whatever. If there was a better service, there might also be families taking day trips to Limerick also, like there was in the past.

Further to my above post, I was on the 0945 LJ - Waterford this morning (Saturday).

I counted at least twelve people awaiting the train at Clonmel, and nineteen at Carrick-on-Suir. This did not include infants. Most were young, paying, or attempting to pay, child fare.
One or two may have been waiting to meet passengers, but most were boarding. Some of the people were francophone and some from Central Europe, it was quite cosmopolitan from Carrick to Waterford.

I dare say that 19 joining at Carrick was unusual, but it shows the random nature of travel patterns on such lines. Just because the passenger census records just one passenger boarding at Carrick on a wet midweek day in November 2016 or 2015.

Another interesting observation on this train this morning, is that a couple of cyclists were using it to get from Dublin to Waterford, for the greenway. They had wanted to book direct via Carlow, but ICRs having only two cycle spaces per set, they could not get the train they wanted, and the next train was too late for their greenway cycle.

It demonstrates the folly of abandoning traditional guard's vans. If IR / NTA want to make the most of potentialgreenway business, a significant increase in cycle space per ICR, is a priority.