Public Transport Ticketing and Fare Systems

devnull

Continuing the discussion from the other thread...

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Plus at the end of the day, the newer buses are more likely to get people out of their cars because of the newer features they have and more modern environment, sure, to the likes of you and me we'd get the bus anyway if it was an AV or an SG, but someone who has took the car for the last 15 years and hasn't got the bus will walk onto an AV and think nothing has changed at all, but if they get on an SG they'll notice a difference straight away from the Dublin Bus of the 90s and the 00s which lets face it, had an image problem to many private car owners.

If we want to encourage more people to use public transport to reduce congestion in the cities, we need to encourage them to do that by shaking off negative perceptions of the service from the past and replacing them with a perception of a modern on-board experience that allows them to get on and off the vehicles quickly, reduce dwell times at stops, give them proper journey information so they know when their stop is, provide added extras and maybe we can encourage people to public transport.

The bad pre conceptions of DB in in late 90's/early 00's were more to do with late buses, lack of information and people standing out in the rain hoping a bus would come not the actual physical buses which were usually fine.

Personally I've always lived on the n11 corridor and the bus service has always been brilliant I'm not famillar with other routes but I would say it is nearly on a par with bus services in most EU cities. The only thing they better than us is dwell with their three door buses.

The reason people don't use public transport in Ireland so much is like you said people have to be encouraged in quite a lot of other cities particularly ex commie ones people are left with no other option but to use public transport be it that they can't afford a car, that there is no space to park it as most people living in cities on the continent live in flats and not houses which have always been more suited the general communal society using public transport falls into that category. Owning a car is seen a luxury in some European countries.

On from that I genuinely dread to see the day during this current fleet replacement program that the VTs are withdrawn. The 05 VTs are drawing nearer and nearer the end of their career. The NTA being who they are will more than likely replace them with SGs the routes that use them need the extra capacity that they give and unless frequency is going to increased on these routes people will left behind at bus stops during peak times. I hope and pray they will be replaced with more triaxles but I highly doubt it.

I love if NTA bought in these beasts to replace the VTs but I highly doubt it or failing that borismasters if they're even still being made.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

The bad pre conceptions of DB in in late 90's/early 00's were more to do with late buses, lack of information and people standing out in the rain hoping a bus would come not the actual physical buses which were usually fine

Again you're looking at a point of view of someone who uses a bus regular and has done in the past also. We don't just need these people, we need the people who have rarely used the bus in the past or those which consider them smelly, cramped and with leaking windows and having to share a seat with some smelly person, like it or not, that is the opinion many car people have of buses in Dublin new vehicles look nothing like old vehicles, so this means the perception of the old vehicles die the moment a person steps on a new bus.

This is the same reason why for example in the UK there are things that have been launched like Stagecoach Gold, National Express Platinum and some very fancy and expensive vehicles in Surrey, Oxford and the posher parts of the North of England, they have realise that car owners in these places will not get out their car for a normal bus no matter how reliable or frequent it is and they have to offer somethig more and they have been very successful.

Personally I've always lived on the n11 corridor and the bus service has always been brilliant I'm not famillar with other routes but I would say it is nearly on a par with bus services in most EU cities. The only thing they better than us is dwell with their three door buses.

Budapest, Warsaw, Krakow, Barcelona, Madrid, Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Paris etc are just some of the cities I would rank well above Dublin, the dwell time on Dublin bus is absloutely abysmal and it takes five minutes at some stops that loads and unloads the same number of passengers in ten seconds in many other cities, plus the information provision on buses and at stops and the frequency, reliability and general onboard environment is very very good and very little driver interaction.

The reason people don't use public transport in Ireland so much is like you said people have to be encouraged in quite a lot of other cities particularly ex commie ones people are left with no other option but to use public transport be it that they can't afford a car, that there is no space to park it as most people living in cities on the continent live in flats and not houses which have always been more suited the general communal society using public transport falls into that category. Owning a car is seen a luxury in some European countries.

But the reason that people don't use public transport here is at had an image problem and until the last few years was stuck in the past in many aspects and didn't develop like other countries did, it stood still for a long period of time pretty much when other countries who would have been behind Dublin at one point caught up and surpassed Dublin very quickly. Much of the stuff that was added in the last few years was a long time after many what would be consideresd deemed less developed countries and are still ahead now.

On from that I genuinely dread to see the day during this current fleet replacement program that the VTs are withdrawn. The 05 VTs are drawing nearer and nearer the end of their career. The NTA being who they are will more than likely replace them with SGs the routes that use them need the extra capacity that they give and unless frequency is going to increased on these routes people will left behind at bus stops during peak times. I hope and pray they will be replaced with more triaxles but I highly doubt it.

THing is that the reason the VT's are needed so much right now is a symptom of the bus service and network we currently have and the fare system and lack of using center doors. If we made the system more effiecent we could run a route with the same amount of buses with a much more frequent timetabl. The VT's are a highly ineffiecent bus, both on fuel and on dwell time and some of the benefit of having them capacity wise is lost by the extra dwell time, so if any more tri-axles are ordered they are going to be a different spec surely.

I love if NTA bought in these beasts to replace the VTs but I highly doubt it or failing that borismasters if they're even still being made.

Borismasters are a complete disaster, they carry less people than a standard double decker with the same number of doors, they are like ovens inside, they cost about 20% more than a standard double decker built to the same spec and have virtually zero resale value on the second hand market and were little more than a vanity project.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Again you're looking at a point of view of someone who uses a bus regular and has done in the past also. We don't just need these people, we need the people who have rarely used the bus in the past or those which consider them smelly, cramped and with leaking windows and having to share a seat with some smelly person, like it or not, that is the opinion many car people have of buses in Dublin new vehicles look nothing like old vehicles, so this means the perception of the old vehicles die the moment a person steps on a new bus.

Whenever a new bus is introduced whether it be an RV, AV, AX or a VT it looks modern and good in the first gfew years but it ages over time and things like leaky windows start becoming issues. Eventually the same thing will happen to the SGs. The snobby brigade that your talking about will never give up their car for a bus unless they introduced a first class compartment. Thats why cars need to be banned from the cc in order to give these utter snobs no choice.

Budapest, Warsaw, Krakow, Barcelona, Madrid, Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Paris etc are just some of the cities I would rank well above Dublin, the dwell time on Dublin bus is absloutely abysmal and it takes five minutes at some stops that loads and unloads the same number of passengers in ten seconds in many other cities, plus the information provision on buses and at stops and the frequency, reliability and general onboard environment is very very good and very little driver interaction.

I agree that DBs dwell times are awful. Cash free interaction needs to introduced in the near future. The NTA and DB should give plenty of info telling people that from x date cash will no longer be accepted on DB services please get a leap card online or from your Leap card agent. Introduce a flat fare aswell. Those things would improve dwell times massively.

Three door should also be introduced over time. Driver interaction needs to scrapped.

But the reason that people don't use public transport here is at had an image problem and until the last few years was stuck in the past in many aspects and didn't develop like other countries did, it stood still for a long period of time pretty much when other countries who would have been behind Dublin at one point caught up and surpassed Dublin very quickly. Much of the stuff that was added in the last few years was a long time after many what would be consideresd deemed less developed countries and are still ahead now.

Maybe before the war Dublin had a better public transport system than these places.

The reason why public transport has stood still is because while our European neighbours were building high quality blocks of flats we were building ds and semi ds in places like Rathfarnham, Cabinteely, Stillorgan, Clontarf, Terenure and Glasnevin aswell as social housing developments in places like Finglas, Tallaght, Ballymun, Ballyfermot, Blanch and Clondalkin. All that was being built were car orientated houses with a much lower density than on the continent. Public transport by its very nature works better in places with higher pop. densities.

THing is that the reason the VT's are needed so much right now is a symptom of the bus service and network we currently have and the fare system and lack of using center doors. If we made the system more effiecent we could run a route with the same amount of buses with a much more frequent timetabl. The VT's are a highly ineffiecent bus, both on fuel and on dwell time and some of the benefit of having them capacity wise is lost by the extra dwell time, so if any more tri-axles are ordered they are going to be a different spec surely.

If this was the continent the VTs would be bendybuses and the standard dd would be a three door single decker. Other than BRT unfortunately bendys would not work here without radical expensive and time consuming changes to our bus infustructure and roads. A good alternative to Bendys would be Berlin style dds with three doors. These buses are similar to VTs with three doors and two stairwells.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

Whenever a new bus is introduced whether it be an RV, AV, AX or a VT it looks modern and good in the first gfew years but it ages over time and things like leaky windows start becoming issues. Eventually the same thing will happen to the SGs.

The leaking windows was a problem with the RV class and the way the window seals were, bench seats have an image problem for car users who are used to their own seat in their car not 'sharing' with someone, to your average car user, show them an RH from 1990 and an AX from 2006 or even an EV from 2008 and they would honestly think that nothing has changed on Dublin bus in 16 years because inside it looks virtually the same inside so all those negative perceptions stay even if some of them are not accurate anymore.

An SG looks vastly different inside and out so negative perceptions are left at the door because it looks something fresh and totally different from what a car user has seen in the past, if we want to reduce congestion and get more people to switch to public transport to make the most of our infrastructure we have to shake off negative perceptions from the past

The snobby brigade that your talking about will never give up their car for a bus unless they introduced a first class compartment. Thats why cars need to be banned from the cc in order to give these utter snobs no choice.

That is the experience in Dublin for many years yes, but it's because there was nothing to entice them out of their car. National Express Platinum, Arriva Saphhire and Stagecoach Gold etc are brands which are directly aimed at the middle class and have been massively successful and these companies did research that suggested that most of these people didn't use a bus because they were deemed as being for poor people and had an image problem. They showed them the luxury interiors of these vehicles and they got many people who would never dream of a bus to switch.

The reason why public transport has stood still is because while our European neighbours were building high quality blocks of flats we were building ds and semi ds in places like Rathfarnham, Cabinteely, Stillorgan, Clontarf, Terenure and Glasnevin aswell as social housing developments in places like Finglas, Tallaght, Ballymun, Ballyfermot, Blanch and Clondalkin. All that was being built were car orientated houses with a much lower density than on the continent. Public transport by its very nature works better in places with higher pop. densities.

Our public transport was not developed properly either by the companies in the 00s and also there was not a proper body that was pushing it prior to the NTA being formed. The UK is far from the finest example for bus operations but even they were well ahead of Ireland when it comes to developing bus transport in the 00s. There were some white elephants like the Streetcar and Borismaster, but there was also some good stuff as well.

I agree population density helps with usage but the current bus network and the way it is structured would never be able to stand up to high levels of usage and a higher population density, hopefully Bus Connects will sort that, but density doesn't make a good public transport system, it just often means that a good public transport system is more important to prevent congestion and whilst bus priority measures on the quays are needed, the operation of the service and design of the network also needs bringing up to scratch.

devnull

devnull wrote: »

Budapest, Warsaw, Krakow, Barcelona, Madrid, Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Paris etc are just some of the cities I would rank well above Dublin, the dwell time on Dublin bus is absloutely abysmal and it takes five minutes at some stops that loads and unloads the same number of passengers in ten seconds in many other cities, plus the information provision on buses and at stops and the frequency, reliability and general onboard environment is very very good and very little driver interaction.

Citation needed, sounds like an utterly wild exaggeration. It takes 30 times longer for passengers to get off a bus in Dublin as it does in any of the other wondrous European cities that aren't Dublin?

L1011

Arjun Kind Oat wrote: »

Citation needed, sounds like an utterly wild exaggeration. It takes 30 times longer for passengers to get off a bus in Dublin as it does in any of the other wondrous European cities that aren't Dublin?

It's getting on that is the problem. Getting off is only an issue when only one door is present or in use, which is reducing as fleet replacements occur

Perfect storm of cash and leap epurse fares being neatly mixed (requiring repeated mode switches on the antique wayfarers) and issues over inconsistent stop/stage names and numbers resulting in longer driver interaction and it can be even worse than that. Every cash/epurse customer has to interact for far longer than with properly designed setups

Worse exists - outer suburban buses in Amsterdam with hand stamped paper tickets for cash customers for instance - but that doesn't mean the Dublin system is amongst the slowest

L1011

L1011 wrote: »

It's getting on that is the problem. Getting off is only an issue when only one door is present or in use, which is reducing as fleet replacements occur

Perfect storm of cash and leap epurse fares being neatly mixed (requiring repeated mode switches on the antique wayfarers) and issues over inconsistent stop/stage names and numbers resulting in longer driver interaction and it can be even worse than that. Every cash/epurse customer has to interact for far longer than with properly designed setups

Worse exists - outer suburban buses in Amsterdam with hand stamped paper tickets for cash customers for instance - but that doesn't mean the Dublin system is amongst the slowest

Ok fine, replace 'off' with 'on' in my post.

Just claiming it's true doesn't actually mean it's true. I'm sure between the two of you you can produce some figures.

devnull

Arjun Kind Oat wrote: »

Citation needed, sounds like an utterly wild exaggeration. It takes 30 times longer for passengers to get off a bus in Dublin as it does in any of the other wondrous European cities that aren't Dublin?

It's from my every day experience on taking buses in other countries and Dublin.

The problem is that at busy bus stops during peak on cross city routes you can have up to 40-50 people getting off the bus mostly through one door which takes 1.5 mins that another 40-50 who want to get on have to wait for them to get off, then half of them or so need the drivers attention who has a slow ticket machine that hangs for a few seconds each time they switch between cash and leap mode, at peak it's not uncommon on some journeys for dwell time to exceed or be close to driving time.

In many countries there are three doors and they can disembark the same number of people in approx 5 seconds and board people in around the same since there is no driver interactions and the ticket machines / validators are opposite the doors rather than being right next to them which discourages people from blocking the doors.

devnull

devnull wrote: »

It's from my every day experience on taking buses in other countries and Dublin.

The problem is that at busy bus stops during peak on cross city routes you can have up to 40-50 people getting off the bus mostly through one door which takes 1.5 mins that another 40-50 who want to get on have to wait for them to get off, then half of them or so need the drivers attention who has a slow ticket machine that hangs for a few seconds each time they switch between cash and leap mode, at peak it's not uncommon on some journeys for dwell time to exceed or be close to driving time.

In many countries there are three doors and they can disembark the same number of people in approx 5 seconds and board people in around the same since there is no driver interactions and the ticket machines / validators are opposite the doors rather than being right next to them which discourages people from blocking the doors.

40-50 people can board a bus in not-Dublin in approx 5 seconds? It takes 0.1 - 0.125 seconds per person to queue, get on the bus, get their ticket, press it on whatever tag on device they have, shuffle forward, etc etc?

Similarly it takes 0.1 - 0.125 seconds in not-Dublin per person for a large crowd to get off a bus?

This just is not true. Under any circumstances.

devnull

Arjun Kind Oat wrote: »

40-50 people can board a bus in not-Dublin in approx 5 seconds? It takes 0.1 - 0.125 seconds per person to queue, get on the bus, get their ticket, press it on whatever tag on device they have, shuffle forward, etc etc?

Have you ever been on a bus outside Dublin and in some of the places I listed recently? Because you appear not to know how it works in other countries because even now you are applying the Dublin model.

Nobody has to get a ticket because they pre-buy tickets, nobody blocks the door when tagging on or validating the tickets because the validators are away from the doors and inside the bus,

There are at least three doors, boarding 2-3 people a second per door when you have three doors is not hard. If you have one door it's impossible and if you have two doors it's pretty tough, but with three doors it's easy because people have no reason to dawdle.

Similarly it takes 0.1 - 0.125 seconds in not-Dublin per person for a large crowd to get off a bus?

Yes, you have three doors. People hang around the doors before their stop and they press the button to open the doors so everyone is prepared.

This just is not true. Under any circumstances.

If you don't believe me it's your choice, I see it with my own eyes on my extensive travel around many other countries and I can tell you that if dwell time was dealt with in Dublin Bus we'd have a far more effiecent service.

LeinsterDub

Arjun Kind Oat wrote: »

40-50 people can board a bus in not-Dublin in approx 5 seconds? It takes 0.1 - 0.125 seconds per person to queue, get on the bus, get their ticket, press it on whatever tag on device they have, shuffle forward, etc etc?

Similarly it takes 0.1 - 0.125 seconds in not-Dublin per person for a large crowd to get off a bus?

This just is not true. Under any circumstances.

In other cities. Tickets are purchased at the bus stop or validated while the bus is in motion. So you've 3 doors open. Everyone piles off and on. Now 5 seconds seems a bit hyperbolic.

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In other cities. Tickets are purchased at the bus stop or validated while the bus is in motion. So you've 3 doors open. Everyone piles off and on. Now 5 seconds seems a bit hyperbolic.

Note I said approx, I have been on buses where it's 5-6 seconds to get people on and off, of course it depends on the passengers as well, routes with older people would be slower than routes which go past universities for example.

bk

Arjun Kind Oat, devnull is spot on with the terrible dwell time of Dublin Bus.

I've travelled all over Europe and used buses in many cities and they are insanely fast in comparison, even at the busiest stops. You really should take a trip to any German city and try it for yourself. Or Poland, I'd recommend Gdansk, cheap flights and you can even check out cool old fashion trolley buses.

All their buses have 3 or 4 doors, usually single deckers (though Berlin has some massive tri-axle, dual stairs double deckers). Here is how it works:

- Bus pulls up to the stop, all 3/4 doors open, people pile out of all doors
- People board via all 3/4 doors, there is no interaction with the driver
- Onboard, there are 3/4 validation machines spread throughout the bus, they are away from the doors, people validate onboard, the doors are usually already closed and the bus pulled off when people are still validating.

It really is insanely fast, even at the busiest city center stops the bus only stops for a few seconds.

I'm not sure why this is hard to understand, it works in roughly the same way on Luas (though on Luas you validate off the tram first).

BTW this isn't new at all, pretty common in Europe for the past 50 years or so. How it normally worked is that you bought a book of bus tickets from a convenience shop that you keep in your pocket/bag and when you board, you tore one ticket off and pushed it into the validator machine which stamped the date/time on the ticket and then you usually have 90 minutes to use the ticket on multiple buses. Today they are moving over to leap cards and contactless cards, but overall the concept is the same.

The truth is, Dublin Bus made a terrible mistake when it got rid of the ticket checkers/sellers and opted to go for the single door/driver interaction model, rather then the already existing and widely used mainland European model. We are now gradually and slowly correcting this mistake.

magicbastarder

one of the interesting methods of loading and unloading buses i've seen was in seattle - you pay getting on inbound, and getting off outbound (it was a flat fare of $1.25); that way in the city centre, where most loading/unloading happens, there's no queue for the driver to deal with.

howiya

Stephen15 wrote: »

I agree that DBs dwell times are awful. Cash free interaction needs to introduced in the near future. The NTA and DB should give plenty of info telling people that from x date cash will no longer be accepted on DB services please get a leap card online or from your Leap card agent. Introduce a flat fare aswell. Those things would improve dwell times massively.

Leap card needs to be made far more accessible if you're going to do away with cash fares.

Minimum €10 to buy a card. Minimum top up €5 when the cheapest fare is €0.60. Let's be completely realistic about it. Some people just don't have it at the time they need to travel. Excluding poor people from public transport is not the answer. Switching to accepting debit cards would actually help people in this situation access the last tenner in their account etc.

On the other end of the extreme, those who do have the money find it difficult to top up. If I've no money on my leap card, I've to walk past three bus stops to get to somewhere I can top up. And then likely miss the bus. While cash is still accepted, I can go to the first bus stop, attempt to tag on. Leap card is out of funds. Give the driver €3.30 and I don't miss the bus. Again the use of debit cards would solve the above.

If I top up online I have to walk to a luas stop, an Irish Rail station or a payzone outlet to collect the top-up before I can get on a bus. And it takes up to 48 hours for your top-up to be processed.Farcical.

Why people keep promoting the leap card is beyond me.

howiya

Deedsie wrote: »

Convenience, savings, reduced dwell times at bus stops, no need to carry change, easy to top up, its always in your wallet.

You can check your balance or top up your leap card by holding it to the back of most modern phones in about 30 seconds. Its very simple and straightforward.

Try that with an iphone. All the other things you mention could be achieved with a contactless debit card.

L1011

howiya wrote: »

Try that with an iphone. All the other things you mention could be achieved with a contactless debit card.

Not much an app provider can do about people willingly buying a crippled device.

devnull

howiya wrote: »

Minimum €10 to buy a card. Minimum top up €5 when the cheapest fare is €0.60. Let's be completely realistic about it. Some people just don't have it at the time they need to travel. Excluding poor people from public transport is not the answer. Switching to accepting debit cards would actually help people in this situation access the last tenner in their account etc.

Indeed but the problem with this is not everyone has a contactless debit or credit card and the banks cand and do issue a non contactless debit card to those with a poor credit rating because the contactless feature is subject to status and even today not all of the banks even issue a contactless debit card.

On the other end of the extreme, those who do have the money find it difficult to top up. If I've no money on my leap card, I've to walk past three bus stops to get to somewhere I can top up. And then likely miss the bus. While cash is still accepted, I can go to the first bus stop, attempt to tag on. Leap card is out of funds. Give the driver €3.30 and I don't miss the bus. Again the use of debit cards would solve the above.

If I top up online I have to walk to a luas stop, an Irish Rail station or a payzone outlet to collect the top-up before I can get on a bus. And it takes up to 48 hours for your top-up to be processed.Farcical.

The use of Debit Cards would require new ticket machines, which would solve the problem with the second paragraph at the same time. The limitation on this system right now is largely due to the ticket machines and the fact they do not have an always on connection to the outside world. That's before running into the problem that some cards would be real-time auth only which would be a problem in signal blackspots since such cards have a strict rule applied by the bank that no transaction can happen unless it is in real-time.

Thing is the same problem exists in other cities, but the difference is in Dublin that we are a very bus dependent city with outdated ticket machines so we are much more exposed to it. In London there are 270 tube stations and bus journeys are generally short hops for a lot of people to take them from a tube station to their residence or tube station to work so they never really have a problem with not being able to top-up directly on bus, so much. I agree that taking debit cards will help and is a function I'd like to see, but it's not perfect.

Also you should push some of the blame to Apple, if it wasn't for them being so protectionist as usual about much of their features and devices functionality there would be a top-up app just like there is for Android.

Stephen15

magicbastarder wrote: »

one of the interesting methods of loading and unloading buses i've seen was in seattle - you pay getting on inbound, and getting off outbound (it was a flat fare of $1.25); that way in the city centre, where most loading/unloading happens, there's no queue for the driver to deal with.

Is this the whole drop the money in the box system used in many US systems sounds like a un recordable system as no ticket is issued so an inspector can't check tickets. The best system is a prepaid system this should have been done years ago in the t90 days. It needs to done asap

howiya

L1011 wrote: »

Not much an app provider can do about people willingly buying a crippled device.

Again why the need to have to a closed loop payment system? I already have a card with money on it. Why should I need two cards?

I bought my phone in 2015. Leap card app introduced in 2016. Should I buy a new phone for one app?

howiya

devnull wrote: »

Indeed but the problem with this is not everyone has a contactless debit or credit card and the banks cand and do issue a non contactless debit card to those with a poor credit rating because the contactless feature is subject to status and even today not all of the banks even issue a contactless debit card.



The use of Debit Cards would require new ticket machines, which would solve the problem with the second paragraph at the same time. The limitation on this system right now is largely due to the ticket machines and the fact they do not have an always on connection to the outside world. That's before running into the problem that some cards would be real-time auth only which would be a problem in signal blackspots since such cards have a strict rule applied by the bank that no transaction can happen unless it is in real-time.

Thing is the same problem exists in other cities, but the difference is in Dublin that we are a very bus dependent city with outdated ticket machines so we are much more exposed to it. In London there are 270 tube stations and bus journeys are generally short hops for a lot of people to take them from a tube station to their residence or tube station to work so they never really have a problem with not being able to top-up directly on bus, so much. I agree that taking debit cards will help and is a function I'd like to see, but it's not perfect.

Also you should push some of the blame to Apple, if it wasn't for them being so protectionist as usual about much of their features and devices functionality there would be a top-up app just like there is for Android.

3 million visa contactless cards in issue already in Ireland. Don't have the figures for mastercard but there is high penetration of contactless cards. Anyone arguing otherwise is simply wrong.

Apple is only a small part of the problem. They are not responsible for online top-up not really being an online top-up.

howiya

Deedsie wrote: »

Cant blame leap card if you choose a limited phone, they have done everything they could do to improve mobile/leap card technology for users.

Ya I agree, eventually contactless or phonepay should be the way to go but for now leapcard is far far better than carrying change. Savings wise alone its a no brainer.

€33/€26 difference per week using a leap card

Bought my phone before leap introduced the app. Should I decide to get a new one for one app?

LollipopJimmy

Traffic Corps need to be asked to run extra enforcement along the quays. The layout for the space is actually quite good but drivers are just driving straight and not following lanes, including going straight over hatched markings.

I also have a picture of a Paddywagon bus parked in the left turning lane onto O'Connell St. He unloaded there and then proceeded to do his post journey inspection in the left turning lane.

Coach companies need to be given a designated place to unload, Bachelors Walk isn't a feasible drop off point, whatever about normal buses but coaches are pulling luggage from underneath.

Also taxis should be required to use ranks inside a certain zone. A taxi stopped on the single lane in front of Trinity College that goes towards Nassau St to pick up a fare and blocked traffic while they arsed about getting into the car. This is less than 50metres from a taxi rank

howiya

Deedsie wrote: »

No, but it is a bit ridiculous to complain if that one app doesnt work on the next phone you choose to purchase. There is nothing leapcard can do about apple phones not being able to use the leap card top up system.

There's nothing wrong with my phone. I won't be making a purchase of another phone until it stops working.

It's only one method of topping up. The rest of it is so outdated and that is the fault of the NTA

devnull

howiya wrote: »

Again why the need to have to a closed loop payment system?

One could also ask why Apple have a closed loop NFC system as well.

I already have a card with money on it. Why should I need two cards?

You also already have a phone with NFC on it but Apple are denying you use of that function to the point that you need another phone to properly use it.

I bought my phone in 2015. Leap card app introduced in 2016. Should I buy a new phone for one app?

No, you have a perfectly good phone which Apple have decided to lock down.

bk

devnull wrote: »

Indeed but the problem with this is not everyone has a contactless debit or credit card and the banks cand and do issue a non contactless debit card to those with a poor credit rating because the contactless feature is subject to status and even today not all of the banks even issue a contactless debit card.

Anyone can get a free contactless debit card from Revolut. No credit rating involved as it is a pre-load type debit card.

BTW I've never heard of anyone not getting a contacless debit card from an Irish bank. At this stage the vast majority of people in Ireland have contactless cards. Creidt card, yes, but not debit.

I do agree you still will need leap e-purse for the odd user and of course you will still need leap for monthly/yearly/etc. tickets and child fares. However I do think contactless will be fantastic and used instead of leap by the majority of normal users.

devnull wrote: »

The use of Debit Cards would require new ticket machines, which would solve the problem with the second paragraph at the same time. The limitation on this system right now is largely due to the ticket machines and the fact they do not have an always on connection to the outside world. That's before running into the problem that some cards would be real-time auth only which would be a problem in signal blackspots since such cards have a strict rule applied by the bank that no transaction can happen unless it is in real-time.

The ticket machines desperately need to be changed anyway. They were already hopelessly outdated when DB bought them.

BTW the ticket machines being online constantly is absolutely not needed for contactless payments. In London contact less payments at either buses or tube are absolutely not online, it was a specific requirement to keep down transaction time. Instead the transaction is recorded on the ticket machine/gate and they are batch processed overnight.

It uses part of the EMV standard called ODA (Offline Data Authentication). All UK banks fully support ODA.

L1011

howiya wrote: »

Bought my phone before leap introduced the app. Should I decide to get a new one for one app?

The lockdown was well known at the time at you bought the phone, and its potential to stop you doing things that other phones allow.

devnull

howiya wrote: »

3 million visa contactless cards in issue already in Ireland. Don't have the figures for mastercard but there is high penetration of contactless cards. Anyone arguing otherwise is simply wrong.

You are the one who said it would benefit poor people, not me. I'm simply explaining to you that it's doubtful that poor people will be able to get a contactless debit card people since the function is subject to status for all of the banks in this country. Even if you allow them to use ticket machines on a bus with a chip if they are real-time auth only they still won't work.

And there is one bank still in Ireland that won't issue contactless to anyone regardless of what their credit rating is like.

maximoose

bk wrote: »

Anyone can get a free contactless debit card from Revolut.

They haven't been free for some time - €6

howiya

Deedsie wrote: »

Leap card is saving people €364 per year at the moment so Id say the leap card users will be getting new nfc enabled phones before apple stop supporting your iPhone.

But i don't need an Android phone to access these savings. I have a leap card. It doesn't save me €364 a year either.

I'm sorry I mentioned the phone now. Funny how nobody is debating the rest of the points about how poor the leap card product is.

bk

BTW Apple is seemingly opening up the NFC support in the upcoming iOS 11, hopefully that will allow the Leap card app to work on iPhone. However it is still no replacement for contactless card/phone support.

howiya

devnull wrote: »

You are the one who said it would benefit poor people, not me. I'm simply explaining to you that it's doubtful that poor people will be able to get a contactless debit card people since the function is subject to status for all of the banks in this country. Even if you allow them to use ticket machines on a bus with a chip if they are real-time auth only they still won't work.

And there is one bank still in Ireland that won't issue contactless to anyone regardless of what their credit rating is like.

Maybe poor was the wrong word. People who have money at the start of the month and don't have it at the end of the month do not necessarily have a poor credit rating. If they did there wouldn't be over 3 million contactless cards in issue in Ireland.

bk

howiya wrote: »

I'm sorry I mentioned the phone now. Funny how nobody is debating the rest of the points about how poor the leap card product is.

I think we all agree that Leap is an incredibly poor product, as is the implementation of driver interaction, etc.

The only reason anyone uses it are the savings versus cash.

Done right though, it does have potential, but it definitely has a long way to go.

devnull

bk wrote: »

BTW I've never heard of anyone not getting a contacless debit card from an Irish bank. At this stage the vast majority of people in Ireland have contactless cards. Creidt card, yes, but not debit.

They are subject to status and I know people who have moved to Ireland as students and with no credit rating or never worked in their life who was refused a contactless debit card and instead given an real time auth only standard Visa Debit and told to come back when they debited a certain amount into their account or had a better credit rating.

The reason is because the transactions are not processed in real-time there is the potential for people to keep spending money that they do not have because the balance is not checked befora approving the transaction and a bank is not going to allow that facility to someone they have no info on.

The ticket machines desperately need to be changed anyway. They were already hopelessly outdated when DB bought them.

Agreed.

In London contact less payments at either buses or tube are absolutely not online, it was a specific requirement to keep down transaction time. Instead the transaction is recorded on the ticket machine/gate and they are batch processed overnight.

It uses part of the EMV standard called ODA (Offline Data Authentication). All UK banks fully support ODA.

Contactless payments are never real-time anyway, they always take a day or two to process and are not instant debits like is seen on chip and pin transactions and they are batch procesed like you say so the card reader does not check if there is balance in the account before allowing the transaction.

However UK banks like Irish will only allow that functionality for customers which have an acceptable credit rating, if they do not they will issue them with a non contactless card which is real-time auth chip and pin transaction only, so it won't work unless it can determine that money is in the account.

howiya

Deedsie wrote: »

Why would you have a leap card if you think they are so poor? I didnt say it was saving you €364, I said it was saving people €364 per year.

Purely because it offers me access to cheaper fares at times I choose to use public transport. I also think public transport is poor. Should I stop using that?

devnull

howiya wrote: »

Maybe poor was the wrong word. People who have money at the start of the month and don't have it at the end of the month do not necessarily have a poor credit rating. If they did there wouldn't be over 3 million contactless cards in issue in Ireland.

Bear in mind in those stats that some people would have two cards.

For example I have a AIB Visa Debit and an AIB Visa Credit, both are contactless.

howiya

howiya wrote: »

Try that with an iphone. All the other things you mention could be achieved with a contactless debit card.

That's the fault of Apple/the phone itself, not the Leap card.

I actually agree with you on the online top-up thing though, was fairly bemused when I realised I had to go to a train station to top it up. There are shops all over the city though that will do it. The NFC top-up is absolutely brilliant.

howiya

Arjun Kind Oat wrote: »

That's the fault of Apple/the phone itself, not the Leap card.

Again its laughable how people are focussed in my choice of phone. Why aren't we debating why the leap card online top-up is rubbish? The NTA's own website but we'll deflect and blame Apple and/or their customers.

howiya

Deedsie wrote: »

God no, keep using public transport. The more people using it the better for us all. Maybe have a look at a few android phones though.

Your argument a minute ago was why use something if you think it's so poor. Why is that different when it comes to public transport?

howiya

devnull wrote: »

Bear in mind in those stats that some people would have two cards.

For example I have a AIB Visa Debit and an AIB Visa Credit, both are contactless.

The stats are for Visa only. I have three contactless cards. Only one of them is a Visa card. Visa are the biggest provider though.

A survey commissioned by BOI last year found 54pc of debit and credit card owners use contactless payment when paying for goods and services.

Which bank doesn't offer contactless cards?

devnull

howiya wrote: »

Again its laughable how people are focussed in my choice of phone. Why aren't we debating why the leap card online top-up is rubbish? The NTA's own website but we'll deflect and blame Apple and/or their customers.

I've said this once and I've said it before, but the way the system works on LEAP is identical to many other smartcard systems across the world and whilst people may claim that these problems don't exist in other countries they do. It's not as simple as saying it's about their website or functionality.

Oyster is very similar in that you cannot collect a top-up on the bus. The only place you can collect it is at a rail, tram tube or riverbus stop. They don't have an app and they don't have the shop option so we have a couple more options than they do with regards to collecting things but lets not let facts get in the way.

The difference is in Dublin that we are a very bus dependent city. In London bus journeys are generally short hops for a lot of people to take them from a tube station to their residence or tube station to work so they never really have a problem with not being able to top-up directly on bus, so much. I agree that taking debit cards helps with that issue though.

howiya

devnull wrote: »

I've said this once and I've said it before, but the way the system works on LEAP is identical to many other smartcard systems across the world and whilst people may claim that these problems don't exist in other countries they do. It's not as simple as saying it's about their website or functionality.

Oyster is very similar in that you cannot collect a top-up on the bus. The only place you can collect it is at a rail, tram tube or riverbus stop. They don't have an app and they don't have the shop option so we have a couple more options than they do with regards to collecting things but lets not let facts get in the way.

The difference is in Dublin that we are a very bus dependent city. In London bus journeys are generally short hops for a lot of people to take them from a tube station to their residence or tube station to work so they never really have a problem with not being able to top-up directly on bus, so much. I agree that taking debit cards helps with that issue though.

In London there is no need to top up your Oyster card. TFL have been accepting contactless payments since 2011.

TFL are actually actively encouraging people to switch from Oyster to their debit card because it saves TFL money.

devnull

howiya wrote: »

The stats are for Visa only. I have three contactless cards. Only one of them is a Visa card. Visa are the biggest provider though.

Is there any hihg street bank in Ireland that issues Mastercard Contactless? I think KBC are the only one and they'd be the smallest of the banks.

A survey commissioned by BOI last year found 54pc of debit and credit card owners use contactless payment when paying for goods and services.

So almost half do and half don't.

Which bank doesn't offer contactless cards?

I believed that Ulster did not offer them but it seems at the start of the year it started to offer them, although weirdly it seems that their accounts by default still come with the non contactless "Debit Card" rather than the contactless "Service Card"

bk

devnull wrote: »

They are subject to status and I know people who have moved to Ireland as students and with no credit rating or never worked in their life who was refused a contactless debit card and instead given an real time auth only standard Visa Debit and told to come back when they debited a certain amount into their account or had a better credit rating.

The reason is because the transactions are not processed in real-time there is the potential for people to keep spending money that they do not have because the balance is not checked befora approving the transaction and a bank is not going to allow that facility to someone they have no info on.

Contactless payments are never real-time anyway, they always take a day or two to process and are not instant debits like is seen on chip and pin transactions and they are batch procesed like you say so the card reader does not check if there is balance in the account before allowing the transaction.

However UK banks like Irish will only allow that functionality for customers which have an acceptable credit rating, if they do not they will issue them with a non contactless card which is real-time auth chip and pin transaction only, so it won't work unless it can determine that money is in the account.

All of the above is irrelevant with a €6 revoult card (it use to be free) which BTW is only €1 more then it costs to buy a Leap card, while giving you FAR more functionality for your money.

Of course Leap is still needed for other reasons, but contactless is absolutely the way to go for day to day use.

Nermal

howiya wrote: »

Why aren't we debating why the leap card online top-up is rubbish?

Just use the auto-top up.

bk wrote: »

I think we all agree that Leap is an incredibly poor product, as is the implementation of driver interaction, etc.

It's a not a poor product at all. If DB went cashless and implemented a flat fare all the problems are solved.

devnull

howiya wrote: »

In London there is no need to top up your Oyster card. TFL have been accepting contactless payments since 2011.

You are the one that said the NTA's website was to blame, not me.

I'm simply illustrating that the situation with the LEAP card is the same with the Oyster card at the end of the day rather than being a so called example of our card being crippled compared to other cards.

TFL are actually actively encouraging people to switch from Oyster to their debit card because it saves TFL money.

But the problem with this is that contactless debit cards are even harder to get in the UK for poor people or those with a low credit rating than they are in Ireland so it doesn't work for everyone but I don't see you blaming TFL for this.

However you do continue to blame the NTA for the fact that Apple are making it much harder for people with their devices to top up with any VISA Debit Card or Mastercard which anyone can get regardless of status.

bk

Nermal wrote: »

Just use the auto-top up.

If you can get it to work, I still haven't gotten it to work after a few weeks of trying on one of my cards!

Also €40 out of your bank account is a lot of money for many people.

In my experience of using auto-topup on two cards, it is a poorly implemented system.

Nermal wrote:

It's a not a poor product at all. If DB went cashless and implemented a flat fare all the problems are solved.

Not really, you will still have all the problems being discussed here with topping up leap cards.

The dream is flat fare (no driver interaction) with contactless cards/phone.

bk

devnull wrote: »

But the problem with this is that contactless debit cards are even harder to get in the UK for poor people or those with a low credit rating than they are in Ireland so it doesn't work for everyone but I don't see you blaming TFL for this.

No they aren't, complete nonsense. Revolut is in the UK too and available to all, as are other pre-load contactless debit cards.

howiya

devnull wrote: »

Is there any hihg street bank in Ireland that issues Mastercard Contactless? I think KBC are the only one and they'd be the smallest of the banks.



So almost half do and half don't.



I believed that Ulster did not offer them but it seems at the start of the year it started to offer them, although weirdly it seems that their accounts by default still come with the non contactless "Debit Card" rather than the contactless "Service Card"

So all banks do offer them then? That's some turnaround. Ulster are in the process of rolling them out. They'll send you a contactless card when your card is expiring or you can request one if you don't want to wait.

KBC, Revolut, N26 etc all use mastercard. High street banks obviously have the biggest market share.

Don't forget tourists use public transport too. This myth of low penetration of contactless cards that you are trying to spin simply isn't true.

devnull

bk wrote: »

No they aren't, complete nonsense. Revolut is in the UK too and available to all, as are other pre-load contactless debit cards.

Revolut is an online-auth contactless card that will not work when there is not a real-time authorisation to the bank to check that there is money in the account so it's not exactly the same as a full contactless offline auth card.

Nationwide is the only bank in the UK to offer contactless by default on it's basic bank accounts, all of the rest require a higher account, income levels or a higher credit rating in order to gain this facility, because these accounts cannot be overdrawn because of their owners credit rating.