Camper conversion

Happy.camper

Hi all, just starting my first camper conversion. I bought a transit minibus thinking it would be easier to convert since it has windows, plus the fact the vrt would already have been paid. My concerns are with the fixed cooking facilities...does this mean I can screw down a gas camping cooker to a table top to qualify. Also has anyone a link to putting in electrics for a novice. Thanks all.

CJhaughey

I'd start with this book.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Build-Your-Own-Motorcaravan-2nd/dp/0857332813

colm_mcm

What's your plan for insurance?

Happy.camper

Campervan / motor home insurance

StupidLikeAFox

Do you have the 1.8m internal height? I'd scope out insurance companie/MCC first on this.

You can get a camping stove and screw it down, but it will need a permanent gas bottle and probably an isolated box for the bottle with hole in the floor

Three things to make your life easier:

- consult with a gas fitter before you do your cooker. He will be very unlikely to approve anything he has not fully specified himself. Consider using a meths stove as this side steps all of the gas issues (which are significant and expensive) and can be had for just €200.00
- don't bother unless the van has 1.8m internal head height. If it doesn't then the only option is to go to the Motor Caravan Club of Ireland which is a minefield in of itself.
- make absolutely certain that you can have free access between the front and the back of the van between the front seats.

Shoog

colm_mcm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Do you have the 1.8m internal height? I'd scope out insurance companie/MCC first on this.

You can get a camping stove and screw it down, but it will need a permanent gas bottle and probably an isolated box for the bottle with hole in the floor

MCC won't let you join without a proper camper/caravan hob.

The MCC guidelines are exhaustive but sensible. You will need a big roof vent if you go with them.

Shoog

12 element

Why do they require that?

12 element

12 element wrote: »

Why do they require that?

Because carbon monoxide kills and any fire inside a confined space is liable to generate significant amounts of it. They also require low level vents to create an adequate flow of air through the cab - but the existing vents will usually cover that.

I used two fixed boat vents but most people go for the fiamma style square ones.

Shoog

shaunr68

Happy.camper wrote: »

plus the fact the vrt would already have been paid.

As a matter of interest and without taking the thread off at a tangent, could anybody confirm/explain this part please? Are the VRT rules different when reclassifying from minibus-camper as opposed to the panel van-camper route? Thanks

StupidLikeAFox

shaunr68 wrote: »

As a matter of interest and without taking the thread off at a tangent, could anybody confirm/explain this part please? Are the VRT rules different when reclassifying from minibus-camper as opposed to the panel van-camper route? Thanks

When a van is initially purchased or brought into the country it is liable for commercial VRT (50e). Campers are liable for vrt at 13.5% of market value, so when you convert you have to pay the difference.

Mini buses are liable for VAT at 13.5% from the get go so the VRT is already paid on them and no difference is owed when you convert to a camper.

Happy.camper

Has anyone converted a van recently.

What do I have to do to get it classed as a camper.

Do I have to bring the van for inspection or does someone come out.

colm_mcm

Happy.camper wrote: »

Has anyone converted a van recently.

What do I have to do to get it classed as a camper.

Do I have to bring the van for inspection or does someone come out.

First thing to do is contact the MCC and outline what your build plans are. They can steer you right before you go building something that they won't give you membership for, and thus won't get insurance on.

Once you have it built, they'll send an SQI out to have a look at it and confirm that it's meets their own requirements.

Next is to take photos of the interior and exterior, send them to rosslare along with the paperwork to change class to a camper

Then wait 2 weeks or so for that to be processed, and pay the VRT locally

Then DOE and tax it.

That's my understanding of it anyway.

Happy.camper

Great thanks for the info.

Alkers

colm_mcm wrote:

First thing to do is contact the MCC and outline what your build plans are. They can steer you right before you go building something that they won't give you membership for, and thus won't get insurance on.

There are insurers other than the MCC, (dolmen and Stuart's) both they both have other requirements you'll need to satisfy e.g. internal height or a walkway between the cab and living area.

Then to further confuse things, those requirements are in order to insure as a camper but they are not the same as the requirements to have the vehicle registered and taxed as a camper.

worded

Any "before" pics ?

Good luck with the project

Get the advice pack from the MCC and use that as guidance on your conversion. Do not get into a discussion with them/him at this stage, just ask any questions here regarding clarification of their guidance notes. if you follow their guidance notes you will be able to insure your camper with most people. Remember though:
-get a gas man to specify your gas installation before you start - this will save you a heap of trouble otherwise.
-try to get 1.8m headheight as this will afford the maximum flexibility in insurance
-keep the area behind the front seats clear for access between front and back

The procedure for re-registering I followed was:
-contact a SQI at an early stage and get clarification of what they want, some do not know the rules so shop around until you find one
-do your conversion
-get back in touch with your SQI, pay him his fee (around €150) and he will fill out the form for the revenue and take the required photos. He will then submit this on your behalf.
-wait a few weeks till the quote comes back. This can be paid by bank transfer directly to them. Rosslare is the arbitor of all things Camper tax wise (but the local revenue still think they are)
-they will send you out a conversion certificate which can then be used as proof for the insurance which ytou will need to arrange next
-once you have your insurance certificate take it to your local motor tax office and pay your camper motor tax.

Thats all there is to it

Shoog

oxygen

Shoog wrote: »

Get the advice pack from the MCC and use that as guidance on your conversion. Do not get into a discussion with them/him at this stage, just ask any questions here regarding clarification of their guidance notes. if you follow their guidance notes you will be able to insure your camper with most people. Remember though:
-get a gas man to specify your gas installation before you start - this will save you a heap of trouble otherwise.
-try to get 1.8m headheight as this will afford the maximum flexibility in insurance
-keep the area behind the front seats clear for access between front and back

The procedure for re-registering I followed was:
-contact a SQI at an early stage and get clarification of what they want, some do not know the rules so shop around until you find one
-do your conversion
-get back in touch with your SQI, pay him his fee (around €150) and he will fill out the form for the revenue and take the required photos. He will then submit this on your behalf.
-wait a few weeks till the quote comes back. This can be paid by bank transfer directly to them. Rosslare is the arbitor of all things Camper tax wise (but the local revenue still think they are)
-they will send you out a conversion certificate which can then be used as proof for the insurance which ytou will need to arrange next
-once you have your insurance certificate take it to your local motor tax office and pay your camper motor tax.

Thats all there is to it

Shoog

Hey Shoog

Quick question, do you know are the MCC rigid in their requirement for a gas installed burner hob. Could you use a 2 ring low voltage induction hob instead? It seems %100 safer to me than carrying around a gas canister and could run on the batteries power without too much issue.

thanks!

autumnalcore

oxygen wrote: »

Hey Shoog

Quick question, do you know are the MCC rigid in their requirement for a gas installed burner hob. Could you use a 2 ring low voltage induction hob instead? It seems %100 safer to me than carrying around a gas canister and could run on the batteries power without too much issue.

thanks!

Typical induction hob is 2200w per burner at full power that's 183A per burner at 12V so you'd need a substantial battery bank and expensive wiring.

I think also you'll find that the induction hobs advertised as 12V require an inverter and probably won't like a cheap quasi sine inverter so add the cost of a pure sine inverter and factor in losses in the inverter and you're probably closer 220A per 2200w.

You could turn down the power of course but bear in mind that even the small burner on a gas cooker is about 1100w which is fine for simmering but I wouldn't want to cook over it.

If you really want to avoid gas then alcohol is the way to go.

air

Will an electric hob meet requirements (insurance and VRT) though and avoid the gas issues?

The MCC are looking for scammers so anything you do out of the ordinary will set off alarm bells. As I have said before, an alchohol stove is hard to object to and quite practical really, certainly cheaper in the end than a gas setup. Been used on boats for decades.

Shoog

air

With battery technology moving on and induction hobs freely avialable now, electric based systems should be a lot more viable now for campers. Eliminates all the moisture that burning gas introduces into the van too.
So strictly speaking it just has to be a fixed 2 ring hob?

oxygen

Shoog wrote: »

Get the advice pack from the MCC and use that as guidance on your conversion. Do not get into a discussion with them/him at this stage, just ask any questions here regarding clarification of their guidance notes. if you follow their guidance notes you will be able to insure your camper with most people. Remember though:
-get a gas man to specify your gas installation before you start - this will save you a heap of trouble otherwise.
-try to get 1.8m headheight as this will afford the maximum flexibility in insurance
-keep the area behind the front seats clear for access between front and back

The procedure for re-registering I followed was:
-contact a SQI at an early stage and get clarification of what they want, some do not know the rules so shop around until you find one
-do your conversion
-get back in touch with your SQI, pay him his fee (around €150) and he will fill out the form for the revenue and take the required photos. He will then submit this on your behalf.
-wait a few weeks till the quote comes back. This can be paid by bank transfer directly to them. Rosslare is the arbitor of all things Camper tax wise (but the local revenue still think they are)
-they will send you out a conversion certificate which can then be used as proof for the insurance which ytou will need to arrange next
-once you have your insurance certificate take it to your local motor tax office and pay your camper motor tax.

Thats all there is to it

Shoog

Whats the best way to contact the MCC to get this pack Shoog? I'm guessing the contact page of the website? Do they generally respond here.
https://www.imcc.ie/contact

(Also can you advise how to phrase the request, they seem fairly cagey about new memebership)

oxygen

oxygen wrote: »

Whats the best way to contact the MCC to get this pack Shoog? I'm guessing the contact page of the website? Do they generally respond here.
https://www.imcc.ie/contact

(Also can you advise how to phrase the request, they seem fairly cagey about new memebership)

Indeed they are a bit cagey and the impression I get is that they only really want commercial campers. However just ask for a membership application pack and for their details on what is acceptable as a home conversion. Leave it at that and don't give any more details.

Shoog

autumnalcore

air wrote: »

With battery technology moving on and induction hobs freely avialable now, electric based systems should be a lot more viable now for campers. Eliminates all the moisture that burning gas introduces into the van too.
So strictly speaking it just has to be a fixed 2 ring hob?

Yes 2 ring hob according to rosslare, a friend had a two ring domino induction hob in his van to get it through.

RE: electric based systems being viable
If you have very deep pockets perhaps. But new a system capable of powering a couple of induction hobs long term will take up more space than a gas bottle, cost thousand of euros, have noisy cooling fans, be prone to expensive failures and require very expensive periodic replacements of the batteries.

That said you would have the added benefit of being able to use a microwave, electric kettle, fridge, coffee machine etc of course. But you have to think of where that energy is going to appear from.

2 x 2.2kw induction rings for 15 minutes a day = guesstimate 110Ah after losses. Now you've got to put that back in your batteries by solar (lots of hours), alternator (hours of driving), generator (hours + noise + fumes + fuel) or mains.

Gas on the other hand is simple, reliable, cheap, high energy density and widely available, and could still be working perfectly in several decades time.

2 x 2.2kwh gas burners for 25 minutes (lower efficiency than induction) = approx 133g of gas. An 11kg bottle will do another 84 days of that before you need to change it, the refill is about €32.

I'd reserve induction cooking for the 7.5 toners and beyond.
You need real estate on the roof.
Doable.
1.5kWp Solar and 16kWh battery.
Cheaper than gas on a liveaboard. Has to be true sine inverter and ferrous cookware. I'd still fit gas as a standby system.

The low hanging fruit is electric refrigeration.

StupidLikeAFox

You can always get a gas hob for the conversion process and then change it out afterwards

air

Is it true that all gas runs need to be done in solid copper for Irish conversions? Seems odd since copper work hardens with vibration and is not generally used in mobile applications for this reason.

air

air wrote: »

Is it true that all gas runs need to be done in solid copper for Irish conversions? Seems odd since copper work hardens with vibration and is not generally used in mobile applications for this reason.

When I spoke to a gas fitter - he was insisting on using steel for gas pipes - he was not prepared to certify copper. I didn't use him in the end since he was wrong on a number of other points regarding gas lockers. However it suggests that there is no Irish requirement to use copper. In fact when I went and found the guidance it described the exact specifications of the copper to be used, and I think it also discussed the specs of steel.

What it is important to understand is, the pipe has to be solid from the bulkhead of the gas locker to the appliance. Each join made in the gas pipe should either be outside the body of the van or have its own dedicated gas dropout (the requirements for all dropouts is a 6inch diameter hole).

In the end I fitted an alcohol stove to get it passed.

Shoog

Tristan is the only certified MH gas installer I know of.

Don't forget the gas locker drain hole to vent stray emissions.

shaunr68

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Tristan is the only certified MH gas installer I know of.

I note that the cert was issued in NI - presumably that is valid here? Reason I ask is I have a mate (though over in the UK) who is a gas fitter, he does mostly domestic work fitting boilers, but has recently done his LPG qualifications. Which might come in handy in the future if I do another conversion and need him to check out and certify my work.

It's an application appropriate skillset.
I reckon a RGI is all you need for the government.

I'd put more faith in an expert than a qualification. Same reason I wouldn't advocate auto-electric and habitation extra low voltage wiring by a sparks who only does houses.

Alkers

Sir Liamalot wrote:

I'd put more faith in an expert than a qualification. Same reason I wouldn't advocate auto-electric and habitation extra low voltage wiring by a sparks who only does houses.

I would agree on terms of optimal design/installation but not safety. I.e. I don't think anything done would be unsafe, although likely a better job could do be done

air

Shoog wrote: »

In fact when I went and found the guidance it described the exact specifications of the copper to be used, and I think it also discussed the specs of steel.

Thanks for that Shoog, any links to said guidance?

So who are people generally getting an this to do the work and are SQIs happy to sign this off?

air

air wrote: »

Thanks for that Shoog, any links to said guidance?

So who are people generally getting an this to do the work and are SQIs happy to sign this off?

I cannot find the guidance notes, but they are the ones that were issued to gas fitters in Ireland. Its fairly much a carbon copy of the UK guidance notes.

SQI can be very picky or very relaxed. I spoke to a few before choosing mine and his inspection boiled down to a box ticking exercise. One other I tried was going to insist on crash test certs for everything that was fitted - which was ridiculous. The one I chose in the end would have only looked for the gas fitters cert to pass it - he was not going to inspect anything to do with the gas himself. I could not have got my original gas installation passed because I under-specified the drop out hole and couldn't increase it or move the gas locker. I ripped it out and got an meths stove, no need for a gas cert and the SQI had no issues with it.

Once you have the SQI approval the revenue are fairly much obliged to pass it for VRT - but that doesn't means that anyone has to insure it for you.

Shoog

colm_mcm

You don't need a gas cert for a conversion, the smev job we put into the one endidncame with copper pipe and a rubber hose.

Simona1986

Simona1986 wrote: »

I don't think anything done would be unsafe, although likely a better job could do be done

That's exactly my point.

Similarly hence all coach built habitation wiring is safe and doesn't work very well.
I'll put the violin down as soon as I see a split charge system on a stock vehicle on at least 16mm² with a larger than 20A fuse and a stock mains charger that gets a battery to SG 1.275 :rolleyes:

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

You don't need a gas cert for a conversion, the smev job we put into the one endidncame with copper pipe and a rubber hose.

If a SQI doesn't insist on a gas cert, he will not remain a SQI for long. It is now the law that all gas installations are certified and it is the main responsibility of the SQI to ensure that the vehicle is complient with legislation.
Also try getting Dolmen or Stewarts to insure you if you haven't got that magic gas cert.

Shoog

colm_mcm

Maybe I'm wrong, we got an RGI to do ours, but I don't remember there being a cert.

Alkers

Shoog wrote:

If a SQI doesn't insist on a gas cert, he will not remain a SQI for long. It is now the law that all gas installations are certified and it is the main responsibility of the SQI to ensure that the vehicle is complient with legislation. Also try getting Dolmen or Stewarts to insure you if you haven't got that magic gas cert.

Is there a van specific cert or is an rgi installation all you need?