7 Questions to ask

RichieO

These 7 questions I have asked myself and others, the number of different responses is truly amazing and if you can get honest answers it speaks volumes about yourself and others...

Do you ever have the slightest doubts about your truths?
Is there anything in your life that you are 100% certain about?
Have you ever thought about why or how you can be certain?
Do you know the difference between truth, belief, fact, law, rule, theory and hypothesis?
Do you study the history of every science and religion?
How do you know if you are correct in your beliefs?
Do you try to understand why others doubt or ridicule your beliefs?

Pherekydes

My 7 questions:

• Will the Packers win the SB?
• Will Aaron Rodgers win the MVP?
• Will Stoke finish higher than 9th this season?
• Is pineapple ok on pizza, even for atheists?
• Is a jaffa cake a biscuit or a cake?
• Why can I not touch my toes any more?
• Is the meaning of life really 42?

smacl

RichieO wrote: »

These 7 questions...

I'll bite

Do you ever have the slightest doubts about your truths?
No, I don't have any truths per se, just a small amount of imperfect knowledge.

Is there anything in your life that you are 100% certain about?
Yes, 100% certain I love my wife and kids. 99.999999999999% death is pretty much a given. That whole head in a jar thing going on in Futurama, Elon Musk's living in a simulation, God, the Flying Spaghetti monster etc... and any other fantasy that can be imagined but not disproved make up the missing bit.

Have you ever thought about why or how you can be certain?
Not really, more interested in probable and possible than certain.

Do you know the difference between truth, belief, fact, law, rule, theory and hypothesis?
Largely, but my definitions might not agree with yours.

Do you study the history of every science and religion?
Nope.

How do you know if you are correct in your beliefs?
Which beliefs? The belief that the value of information decays over time as our understanding of things improves perhaps?

Do you try to understand why others doubt or ridicule your beliefs?
I suspect that people can become very invested in their beliefs and become very concerned when those beliefs get contradicted.

magicbastarder

who is spain?
why is hitler?
where are the snowdens of yesteryear?
where was that stooped and mealy-coloured old man i used to call poppa when the merry go round broke down?

smacl

Pherekydes wrote: »

My 7 questions:

• Will the Packers win the SB?
• Will Aaron Rodgers win the MVP?
• Will Stoke finish higher than 9th this season?
• Is pineapple ok on pizza, even for atheists?
• Is a jaffa cake a biscuit or a cake?
• Why can I not touch my toes any more?
• Is the meaning of life really 42?

Who are the packers?
Who is Aaron Rodgers?
Who is Stoke?
No, heresy. Burn the heretics!
No.
You lost both your legs in an altercation with a shark.
Yes.

kelly1

Do you ever have the slightest doubts about your truths?
>>> Quite a bit. It's healthy to always keep your mind open to new evidence, view etc.

Is there anything in your life that you are 100% certain about?
>>> I exist and a square circle cannot exist (and other logical contradictions).

Have you ever thought about why or how you can be certain?
>>> I have nothing but my senses and reason to go on.

Do you know the difference between truth, belief, fact, law, rule, theory and hypothesis?
>>> Pretty sure I do. Not 100% on law vs rule, they're pretty similar.

Do you study the history of every science and religion?
>>> I have done. Read a number of books on the history of science and maths. Also read quite a bit about different religions and philosophies.

How do you know if you are correct in your beliefs?
>>> I can only work with the most plausible explanation for what I experience, very little if 100% certain.

Do you try to understand why others doubt or ridicule your beliefs?
>>> Doubt, complete understandable. ridicule is just despicable. I'm ok with a snigger when it comes to young earth creationists and flat-earthers.

smacl

kelly1 wrote: »

a square circle cannot exist

It can, but you just need to add a dimension. Consider a cylinder such as a can of beer with height the same as its diameter. Looked at from above it is a circle, looked at from in front it is a square.

RichieO

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you ever have the slightest doubts about your truths?
>>> Quite a bit. It's healthy to always keep your mind open to new evidence, view etc.

Is there anything in your life that you are 100% certain about?
>>> I exist and a square circle cannot exist (and other logical contradictions).

Have you ever thought about why or how you can be certain?
>>> I have nothing but my senses and reason to go on.

Do you know the difference between truth, belief, fact, law, rule, theory and hypothesis?
>>> Pretty sure I do. Not 100% on law vs rule, they're pretty similar.

Do you study the history of every science and religion?
>>> I have done. Read a number of books on the history of science and maths. Also read quite a bit about different religions and philosophies.

How do you know if you are correct in your beliefs?
>>> I can only work with the most plausible explanation for what I experience, very little if 100% certain.

Do you try to understand why others doubt or ridicule your beliefs?
>>> Doubt, complete understandable. ridicule is just despicable. I'm ok with a snigger when it comes to young earth creationists and flat-earthers.

Kelly you do surprise me, from your answers I would have guessed you were atheist or at least agnostic... Which means either I am missing something or you are, not sure at this point...

RichieO

Pherekydes wrote: »

My 7 questions:

• Will the Packers win the SB?
• Will Aaron Rodgers win the MVP?
• Will Stoke finish higher than 9th this season?
• Is pineapple ok on pizza, even for atheists?
• Is a jaffa cake a biscuit or a cake?
• Why can I not touch my toes any more?
• Is the meaning of life really 42?

I deduce you are a sports nut with a large appetite and matching gut and a strange idea about life and digits...;)

kelly1

RichieO wrote: »

Kelly you do surprise me, from your answers I would have guessed you were atheist or at least agnostic... Which means either I am missing something or you are, not sure at this point...

My faith in God is quite strong (for now), thanks.

I see no contradiction at all between science and God/the supernatural.

e.g. I accept the evidence that the earth is ~4.5bn years old. Clearly the bible is wrong in this regard. But then the bible isn't a science book. It's more of a history book which tells the history of God's love for humankind, with lots of figurative speech.



I've read both sides of the debate and it's easy to be swayed by the likes of the God Delusion, especially when you don't bother to read counter arguments.
when Dawkins asks, who created God, I just have to laugh. It's childish tbh.

smacl

Your diagram is flawed in that there is nothing out there that would fit into the supernatural category that is objectively observable. Not a huge fan of Dawkins myself but I would agree that belief in the supernatural is delusional.

RichieO

There was a time many years ago when I may have been tempted to go along with your diagram, but from my current viewpoint, no way..
I can agree on the natural and super but not supernatural... From your first post, I thought you were very young 18 - 30 decidedly catholic and relatively inexperienced, not sure now, but I know how difficult it is to free your mind from childhood brainwashing, which I believe is the main reason all religions persist in this modern world, the other main reason is people prefer being told what to do and how to behave, it's the easy option....

ginger_hammer

kelly1 wrote: »

when Dawkins asks, who created God, I just have to laugh. It's childish tbh.

Why is it childish asking who created god? Seems a reasonable question to me. Or where did he/she/it come from? Another dimension?

Also why are the other tens of thousands of gods make-belief but this one is totally real?

RichieO

ginger_hammer wrote: »

Why is it childish asking who created god? Seems a reasonable question to me. Or where did he/she/it come from? Another dimension?

Also why are the other tens of thousands of gods make-belief but this one is totally real?

There are around 3k gods that are known to have been imagined by humans, some with a strikingly similar story to the one in the bible, coincidence or copied?

magicbastarder

the universe has been around for a finite time, but god has been around for an infinite time. so god waited for infinity before deciding to create the universe? what was he doing for that infinity - did he just get bored? or are we the latest iteration in a long running experiment?

these are questions i am not seeking answers to.

kelly1

RichieO wrote: »

From your first post, I thought you were very young 18 - 30 decidedly catholic and relatively inexperienced, not sure now...

Care to explain why you thought I was/am 18-30? I'm heading for 50. And inexperienced in what?

RichieO wrote: »

...but I know how difficult it is to free your mind from childhood brainwashing, which I believe is the main reason all religions persist in this modern world...

I could say something similar about atheists who have listened to only one side of the debate.

ginger_hammer wrote: »

Why is it childish asking who created god? Seems a reasonable question to me. Or where did he/she/it come from? Another dimension?

Also why are the other tens of thousands of gods make-belief but this one is totally real?

Because God, for the purposes of this discussion, is defined as the uncaused cause of everything that it not God. The starting point of the causal chain. Under that definition, it makes no sense to ask what created that God.

kelly1

magicbastarder wrote: »

the universe has been around for a finite time, but god has been around for an infinite time. so god waited for infinity before deciding to create the universe? what was he doing for that infinity - did he just get bored? or are we the latest iteration in a long running experiment?

these are questions i am not seeking answers to.

Even though you're not seeking an answer, the answer I give is that God is timeless and that he created time (and space). Of course it's hard for us to imagine no time but it makes sense in the uncaused cause idea.

endacl

RichieO wrote: »

There are around 3k gods that are known to have been imagined by humans, some with a strikingly similar story to the one in the bible, coincidence or copied?

Archetypical.

ginger_hammer

kelly1 wrote: »

Because God, for the purposes of this discussion, is defined as the uncaused cause of everything that it not God. The starting point of the causal chain. Under that definition, it makes no sense to ask what created that God.

That sounds like an overly elaborate way of ducking the question.

kelly1

ginger_hammer wrote: »

That sounds like an overly elaborate way of ducking the question.

I'm ducking nothing. In light of what I said, "Or where did he/she/it come from?" makes no sense. Obviously God did not come from anywhere if God never began.

Does that make sense to you?

ginger_hammer

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm ducking nothing. In light of what I said, "Or where did he/she/it come from?" makes no sense. Obviously God did not come from anywhere if God never began.

Does that make sense to you?

So God came from nowhere and at no point in time came into being?

Quite frankly no, it makes no sense to me.

magicbastarder

kelly1 wrote: »

Even though you're not seeking an answer, the answer I give is that God is timeless and that he created time (and space). Of course it's hard for us to imagine no time but it makes sense in the uncaused cause idea.

'in the beginning, there was nothing but a disembodied, all-powerful, all-wise, all seeing consciousness'.
i just find that a gloriously arbitrary way of explaining existence. you're trying to build the pyramid from the top down.

kelly1

ginger_hammer wrote: »

So God came from nowhere and at no point in time came into being?

Quite frankly no, it makes no sense to me.

In that case you're bound to accept that space-time has always existed. infinite time to the past and future.

I would argue that this is impossible because actual infinities are impossible, only potential infinities are possible.

There's also the 2nd law of thermodynamics/entrophy to consider, which is a defeater.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

when Dawkins asks, who created God, I just have to laugh. It's childish tbh.

Perhaps you might find it less childish if, instead of laughing at it, you thought about it?

It's actually quite a good question given that most religious people insist on causality (many atheists don't) and believe that the question "who created the big bang" is a killer question. When exactly the same line of reasoning cuts the legs off of their arguments - hence, I suppose, the laugh instead of thinking?

ginger_hammer

kelly1 wrote: »

In that case you're bound to accept that space-time has always existed. infinite time to the past and future.

I would argue that this is impossible because actual infinities are impossible, only potential infinities are possible.

There's also the 2nd law of thermodynamics/entrophy to consider, which is a defeater.

This doesn't answer the question of where this god came from, who created it and when it came into being. Then what about the other gods? Do the same rules apply?

After reading hawkins book about the universe we are still leaning about how time can be manipulated via black holes, etc - but that is science and real - not based on a 1900 year old book written by dozens of different men over centuries, changed, edited, translated, edited, etc.

kelly1

ginger_hammer wrote: »

This doesn't answer the question of where this god came from, who created it and when it came into being. Then what about the other gods? Do the same rules apply?

What??
Seriously, I'm not to bother arguing with you when it's clear you're not reading or understanding my posts.

robindch wrote: »

Perhaps you might find it less childish if, instead of laughing at it, you thought about it?

It's actually quite a good question given that most religious people insist on causality (many atheists don't) and believe that the question "who created the big bang" is a killer question. When exactly the same line of reasoning cuts the legs off of their arguments - hence, I suppose, the laugh instead of thinking?

I refer you to post #16.

When Stephen Hawking said that philosophy is dead, maybe some of you accepted that all too readily?

Gaillimh1976

Pherekydes wrote: »

My 7 questions:

• Will the Packers win the SB?
• Will Aaron Rodgers win the MVP?
• Will Stoke finish higher than 9th this season?
• Is pineapple ok on pizza, even for atheists?
• Is a jaffa cake a biscuit or a cake?
• Why can I not touch my toes any more?
• Is the meaning of life really 42?

• No
• No
• No
• NO NO NO NEVER NEVER NEVER !!
• A Cake
• Too many jaffa cakes
• Yes, but only until age 42

robindch

magicbastarder wrote: »

the universe has been around for a finite time, but god has been around for an infinite time. so god waited for infinity before deciding to create the universe? what was he doing for that infinity - did he just get bored? or are we the latest iteration in a long running experiment?

I'm open to correction here, but I believe that the religious belief is that god always existed - the uncaused cause, as the deepity goes - so that means that he had three things to do on the timeline - decide to create the universe, then he had to create the conditions for the universe, then he had to trigger the conditions to create the universe - each of these three events being separated from the next by either no time, some time or an infinite amount of time.

I'm not sure how the religious ties these together. If they've thought about them at all, I would like to think that they do more than laugh at it :rolleyes:

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

Because God, for the purposes of this discussion, is defined as the uncaused cause of everything that it not God. The starting point of the causal chain. Under that definition, it makes no sense to ask what created that God.

No, you are solving the problem by saying that it doesn't apply to you.

Might make a good sermon. Does not make a good explanation.

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

No, you are solving the problem by saying that it doesn't apply to you.

Might make a good sermon. Does not make a good explanation.

Oh man, this is hard work!

You have 2 possibilities:

1) Infinite series of cause and effect into the past and future.
2) A starting point to the chain, beginning with the first uncaused cause. Call it X.

Which is it gonna be?

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

Which is it gonna be?

Physicists have proposed solutions involving both of these, but (1) seems to be preferred and plausible, reasoned solutions exist.

Your side of the discussion is quite different though. You have defined a solution into existence - being a deity which was always there, and which had no cause. Then you define that this deity is the same as the guy who, some stories report, manifested as a carpenter in first century Palestine and who ultimately got nailed to a cross and died.

Your argument works just as well if you substitute "deity" with "flying spaghetti monster".

That's not "defining" a solution - that's simply "making things up"!