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Why do Petrolheads hate Toyotas

  • 23-08-2017 8:14pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭


    OK, I hope I have your attention!

    I bought a new (to me) 2016 Avensis last week. I bought it in the UK, so got the top of the range 2.0 Diesel Excel Estate with everything from leather to trick LED headlamps that bend like a Citroen DS. I didn't even testdrive it (or any of its generation) first, because I wanted a decent reliable car and assumed it would drive like every other modern car I have driven in recent years, i.e. with a predictable degree of sameness.

    I was not proven wrong, but for the fact it seems as good if not better than anything else I have ever driven. I have owned my share of cars in the past from a Capri to a C-Class and I would put its handling pretty much with my old Mk1 Mondeo, i.e. fantastic for a largish car, but someway off the mark from my old Celica and Mk1 Focus. The steering is a bit dead, but such is to be expected with all new cars; electric steering as all the feeling of the old recirculating ball steering box in the Merc w201. It is perfectly comfortable, although the 18" rims make themsevles known. It is no where near as wallowly or comfy over bumps as the Mk1 Avensis that still rides on 15" rims.

    It isn't an exciting car, but no modern car is. It is flawlessly efficient in what it does, and should be far more reliable than anything from Germany (we will say a prayer for the N47 "D4D" ok).

    So what I am getting to is I don't understand the constant "Toyotas" are boring brigade when all that is being discussed as cooking cars. Although I haven't driven one, a modern M5 sounds like a sanitized experience, certainly a 535d is. I have had my fill of modern Mercs and BMWs too; having to fix them every other day once they pass 90k miles isn't all that fun.

    I'll still keep my 190E on the road for when I want a more interesting driving experience, but the alleged gulf between an Avensis and 3 series/Passat/Mondeo for the point of driver engagement isn't there.


«1345

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,575 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    Car hipsters parroting what they hear on top gear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    Toyota used to be one of the top dogs when it came to cool cars, but then they just completely droped it and decided to start making money by selling only bland cars, that had only one thing going for them - reliability.
    And yes, most of the toyotas on the road are bland eco boxes. Nothing interesting for so many years.
    Its does not need to be M5 to get attention of petrolhead. It has to be more then 1.4D Auris though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    maidhc wrote: »
    the alleged gulf between an Avensis and 3 series/Passat/Mondeo for the point of driver engagement isn't there.

    Traditionally, I would have agreed.

    I havn't been in a new Avensis but for what its worth, the difference between the current Corolla and Golf is absolutely huge.

    It sounds like a fine car but the current Toyota's have lost what they once had.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    Their styling went to sh*t , although I like the current auris when it's kitted out.
    The carolla was loved in the late 90's , early 2000's.
    Not so much now because its bland.
    Same thing happened to the Subaru Impreza and Mitsubishi Lancer.
    To look at the lancer now or the carolla you wouldn't think they were beasts in WRC.
    And Subaru destroyed the Impreza with that boggle eyed design and then making a hatch out of it.

    Cracking machines back then, not so much now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    My point though is what is "bland". It is meaningless unquantifiable word.

    I think the Avensis is "bland", but I think the current
    Mondeo
    3 Series
    5 Series
    Passat
    Superb
    i40
    c & e class
    etc

    are all equally bland. And a a golf, well yes, very, very bland. In fact I'd hazard a guess that the last time a mainstream manufacturer made a "non bland" looking car was the Bangle designed 5 series, and before that the Mk1 focus, and after that maybe back to the Jellymould Sierra.

    I feel I'm missing something.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Doltanian


    Toyota don't even sell their Camry here which is a fine car, it's not sold because of our stupid Global Warming eco tax nonsense which Merkel enforced to suit VW with their emissions fraud.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭blackbox


    They only dislike the dull ones.

    I have an MR2 - far from dull. Admittedly it's been a long time since it was made, but they made dull cars at that time too.

    They are a massive corporation that attempts to cater for many market segments.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Toyota design for reliability , others design for fun / luxury.

    A new fully kitted avensis is nice, but its not exciting , it has most of the kit my 99 7 series has, and a few other bits invented since, but toyota of modern days have never dropped a feature on a car that makes me go "damn, id buy the car just for that" They play everything very safe.

    The "run forever" image also keeps them popular with taxi drivers, rural farmers, your dad and low tier sales reps - hardly inspiring a jet set image of coolness.

    The leather is a bit faker, the plastics a little harder, the design a little blander than its german rivals, if it was just one thing i wouldnt mind, but this is death by 1000 cuts


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 390 ✭✭mossy50


    much the same way as mitsubhisi cars have gone


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    The leather is a bit faker, the plastics a little harder, the design a little blander than its german rivals, if it was just one thing i wouldnt mind, but this is death by 1000 cuts

    I think Toyota use actual leather, while MB seem to use the MBTex (or whatever they call it these days). Open to correction on this,


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭dok_golf


    Yep. The Lancer used to be a cracking car once upon a time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,414 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    I have to say I quite like the bold look of the Toyota C-HR. Kind of looks like a SUV version of the previous generation Honda Civic.

    This too shall pass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    A new fully kitted avensis is nice, but its not exciting , it has most of the kit my 99 7 series has,

    I agree. The 1999 7 series won't do 40k miles a year for 5 years and not blow up though. A 2016 7 series might be OK, but then we are comparing apples and oranges.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,861 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Toyota have made some cracking cars over the years to be fair.

    MR2, Celica, AE86, GT86....

    Their ordinary road cars have always been a bit insipid and dull though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ianobrien


    Most proper petrolheads respect Toyota for their engineering and ability to design a car that completely suits it's intended target. Those "petrolheads" that state they hate Toyota don't really understand "designed for function" and how can a petrolhead hate a company that invented the Just-In-Time manufacturing that revolutionized all car manufacturing.

    Toyota have good understanding of their markets and design cars for their markets. Their big sellers are the normal box saloons, hatchbacks and now SUV's and people want reliability, safe, ease of use and reliability. Their target market for these are not really bothered about the handling around the Nurburgring (they want it safe at legal speeds), tactile nature of the (p)leather (as long as it's easy to clean) etc.

    On the other hand, when they decide to do "proper" cars, they don't simply try to make a normal GTi by upping the power/handling of a normal hatchback, (AE92 GTi excepted), they either completely re-engineer it so much it's almost a different car (AE86) or simply design it from the ground up (Celica, MR2, Supra, etc). And when they do it, they are usually cracking cars. When they decide to build 4x4, they build the unbeatable Landcruiser an Hilux that while not as refined as other 4x4's, are unbeatable off road. It's the only 4x4 used really in the Middle East or Africa.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    maidhc wrote: »
    I agree. The 1999 7 series won't do 40k miles a year for 5 years and not blow up though. A 2016 7 series might be OK, but then we are comparing apples and oranges.

    I actually bet it would ha , seriously low stressed engines :pac: but Im not comparing the reliability of those cars, I'm saying the technology and features on the avensis now, my 7er had in 1999 , toyota play the waiting game, let a new technology get 10-15 years old , then put it in, when its been proven and all the problems bet out, where you buy a merc or a bmw and you get something new, might be reliable, might not, but its the latest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,473 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    I hate toyota drivers..guaranteed the slowest driver on the road in front of me is some old fogey driving a toyota and oblivious to the cars behind them.
    I shuddered when I saw the mid 2000 avensis which was a godawful ugly yoke and the next gen after that was incredibly bland.
    I remember toyota for the Celica,Supra and MR2 and they were gorgeous cars..and now look at their cars..:(
    To even mention a M5 or 535D in the same breath as a toyota ..god you should be locked into a toyota and buried alive for eternity.:pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,575 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    never dropped a feature on a car that makes me go "damn, id buy the car just for that" They play everything very safe.

    I think anyone who drives a car with a Toyota hybrid synergy engine would probably completely disagree with that statement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭Cheensbo


    Blazer wrote: »
    I hate toyota drivers..guaranteed the slowest driver on the road in front of me is some old fogey driving a toyota and oblivious to the cars behind them.
    I shuddered when I saw the mid 2000 avensis which was a godawful ugly yoke and the next gen after that was incredibly bland.
    I remember toyota for the Celica,Supra and MR2 and they were gorgeous cars..and now look at their cars..:(
    To even mention a M5 or 535D in the same breath as a toyota ..god you should be locked into a toyota and buried alive for eternity.:pac:

    My 98 avensis estate hits 60mph nearly a second faster than an e60 535d.

    Lock me away, I'd rather be buried in my Toyota than spend my days in a diesel beemer :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    Blazer wrote: »
    I hate toyota drivers..guaranteed the slowest driver on the road in front of me is some old fogey driving a toyota and oblivious to the cars behind them.
    I shuddered when I saw the mid 2000 avensis which was a godawful ugly yoke and the next gen after that was incredibly bland.
    I remember toyota for the Celica,Supra and MR2 and they were gorgeous cars..and now look at their cars..:(
    To even mention a M5 or 535D in the same breath as a toyota ..god you should be locked into a toyota and buried alive for eternity.:pac:

    Again, this is the talk that beats me. They called the future of motoring pretty right when they abandoned diesel for Hybrid while the slow learners in Germany were fiddling the books and blowing millions on an inherently bad technology.

    Obviously an M5 finds a better Toyota comparator in a Lexus GSF than an Auris...

    @ianobrien is on the money here. Very shrewd company that knows its market very well.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,473 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    Cheensbo wrote: »
    My 98 avensis estate hits 60mph nearly a second faster than an e60 535d.

    Lock me away, I'd rather be buried in my Toyota than spend my days in a diesel beemer :)

    I call bull**** on that..unless you've modified the engine or something there's not a hope in hell.

    Also its not that I don't appreciate what Toyota do..they make cars for the masses. Even BMW has their 316D etc and they selling millions of these compared to a few thousand M5 etc. If not for selling cars like the 316D etc there wouldn't be any R&D in performance cars. Everyone needs their bread and butter.
    Look at Mazda..I think their Mazda 6 estate is one of the most beautiful estates in the world and I wish they was a more powerful edition that I would buy in a heartbeat but as Mazda pointed out"we're here to sell millions of cars, not a few thousand".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    Blazer wrote: »
    Also its not that I don't appreciate what Toyota do..they make cars for the masses. Even BMW has their 316D etc and they selling millions of these compared to a few thousand M5 etc.

    So can we not agree BMW are dull and bland because they sell something as asthmatic and undesirable as a 316D ES (is there still an ES?)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,378 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    There are regular photos popping up on Donegal media of a farmer using a Corolla to transport bales of hay which just demonstrates how sexy Toyotas are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭Cheensbo


    Blazer wrote: »
    I call bull**** on that..unless you've modified the engine or something there's not a hope in hell.

    Call it what you want, thats a manufacturer quoted 0-60 time.

    Its definitely gotta be quicker to it now though now that you mention it.

    They didnt call it an avensis in Japan though - they called it a caldina. Mine is the gt-t version.

    So to say any of the larger manufacturers are any more interesting than each other is probably incorrect - I agree - toyota have made some painfully dull cars, for example a basic auris - which is no more or no less interesting than a basic 316 imo.

    Anyway, these things are subjective. I just didnt want you to go through life without knowing that toyota made some spectacularly fun & bonkers cars.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,473 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    Cheensbo wrote: »

    Anyway, these things are subjective. I just didnt want you to go through life without knowing that toyota made some spectacularly fun & bonkers cars.

    oh I know..I loved Celicas when I was a teen..I always swore I would buy one but never got a chance. As for the GT86 I'd snap your hand off for one :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,537 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    I got rid of my Toyota Fortuner because it just felt cheap and nasty, and sounded rough and horrible.
    mossy50 wrote: »
    much the same way as mitsubhisi cars have gone

    current mitsi are ****ing awful things. Cheapest of the cheap inside, Great Wall do better interiors these days. :pac: Even the top specs models feel really really cheap inside.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,532 ✭✭✭JohnBoy26


    mossy50 wrote: »
    much the same way as mitsubhisi cars have gone

    Mitsubishi aren't even in the same league as toyota. Mitsubishi are 10 years behind the competition and have had no real new cars released in a long time apart from the spacestar which is an awful yoke.

    Toyota have been replacing models every 5 years or so and have introduced a a few new decent cars in recent years such as the ch-r and the gt86.

    Mitsubishi are a good few notches below toyota and always have been.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,532 ✭✭✭JohnBoy26


    Toyota used to be one of the top dogs when it came to cool cars, but then they just completely droped it and decided to start making money by selling only bland cars, that had only one thing going for them - reliability.
    And yes, most of the toyotas on the road are bland eco boxes. Nothing interesting for so many years.
    Its does not need to be M5 to get attention of petrolhead. It has to be more then 1.4D Auris though.
    What about the gt86 and the ch-r?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,532 ✭✭✭JohnBoy26


    Traditionally, I would have agreed.

    I havn't been in a new Avensis but for what its worth, the difference between the current Corolla and Golf is absolutely huge.

    It sounds like a fine car but the current Toyota's have lost what they once had.
    Id bet the corolla would still be more trouble free than the golf


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭kyote00


    From 2016, the avensis is very well speced from a safety point of view .... check out this handy comparison....

    426039.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    maidhc wrote: »
    Why do Petrolheads hate Toyotas...

    They don't like boring Toyota's, or indeed any boring car from any make.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    kyote00 wrote: »
    From 2016, the avensis is very well speced from a safety point of view .... check out this handy comparison.......

    ....

    http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/lotus/lotus-elise-sprint-news-and-pictures-of-2017-lightweight-elise/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    JohnBoy26 wrote: »
    What about the gt86 and the ch-r?

    I needed to be more specific maybe. They had nothing interesting for years up until gt86 and nothing again after it. In so many years they managed to pop out one cool car. Even then its a partnership with subaru.

    Up until 90s Toyota had very cool cars in line up, but not anymore.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,617 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    I needed to be more specific maybe. They had nothing interesting for years up until gt86 and nothing again after it. In so many years they managed to pop out one cool car. Even then its a partnership with subaru.

    Up until 90s Toyota had very cool cars in line up, but not anymore.
    What about the Prius. I do think all the trick engineering is cool as ****.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,537 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    JohnBoy26 wrote: »
    What about the gt86 and the ch-r?

    that's just a rav4 made uglier, isn't it?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,575 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    OSI wrote: »
    The CH-R looks like something your Mam would buy because all the kids were making fun of you when she dropped you off in her Yaris :pac:

    This probably sums up the Toyota hating "petrol head" demographic.

    Lads who talk all day about the benefits of a Ferrari over a Lambo but are still getting dropped places by their auld wan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 390 ✭✭mossy50


    most of Toyotas are OAP cars these days


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,532 ✭✭✭JohnBoy26


    OSI wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Don't think I ever stated I hated Toyota? I'd be very happy in a GT-86. Even considered a Hybrid Rav4 for the Mrs. Doesn't preclude me from thinking the CH-R looks ridiculous.

    The ch-r looks great, especially in blue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    This probably sums up the Toyota hating "petrol head" demographic.

    Lads who talk all day about the benefits of a Ferrari over a Lambo but are still getting dropped places by their auld wan.

    I think people are just bitter that they offer their kid a lift in their new Toyota and the kid want to walk 5 miles in the rain instead. Or they keep trying to unlock someone else car by mistake.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    maidhc wrote: »
    I think Toyota use actual leather, while MB seem to use the MBTex (or whatever they call it these days). Open to correction on this,
    Toyota do both synthetic and real leather, depending on trim levels.
    Doltanian wrote: »
    Toyota don't even sell their Camry here which is a fine car, it's not sold because of our stupid Global Warming eco tax nonsense which Merkel enforced to suit VW with their emissions fraud.

    What are you on about? The Camry was dropped from the lineup in Europe long before anyone here knew who Merkel was. There's just zero market in Europe for large cars from non-premium marques.

    Look at the Ford Scorpio, Opel Omega, Nissan Maxima, Renault Safrane, Peugeot 60x, etc. - they all died a death, mostly over a decade ago.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 277 ✭✭CosmicJay


    Cheensbo wrote: »
    Call it what you want, thats a manufacturer quoted 0-60 time.

    Its definitely gotta be quicker to it now though now that you mention it.

    They didnt call it an avensis in Japan though - they called it a caldina. Mine is the gt-t version.

    So to say any of the larger manufacturers are any more interesting than each other is probably incorrect - I agree - toyota have made some painfully dull cars, for example a basic auris - which is no more or no less interesting than a basic 316 imo.

    Anyway, these things are subjective. I just didnt want you to go through life without knowing that toyota made some spectacularly fun & bonkers cars.

    The Caldina has a similar 0 - 60 time than an e60 535d.

    6.5 for the Caldina v 6.2 for the e60 535d.

    Still impressive from an Avensis, not a second quicker though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭marathonic




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭Cheensbo


    CosmicJay wrote: »
    The Caldina has a similar 0 - 60 time than an e60 535d.

    6.5 for the Caldina v 6.2 for the e60 535d.

    Still impressive from an Avensis, not a second quicker though.

    My bad, had 5.5 in my head for some reason - also had 6.5 in my head for the beemer. Either way. Proves the other lad wrong :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,470 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    They just have a fairly dowdy image tbh, barring the odd exception (GT86, Celica...).

    When I think Avensis. I think Taxi. Obviously the same can be applied to the Mondeo, Passat, etc, but not quite to the same extent imo.
    When I think Corolla, I think Padre Pio statues, Travellin to Flavin stickers, towbars, dealer fitted mudflaps, driving 30mph under the limit...

    On a more serious note, correct me if I'm wrong, but the dealers / distributors never seem to be interested in offering a range of options/specs to customers? Certainly used to be the case anyway that you either take the entry-spec car or middling-spec car or nothing else. Not much flexibility in terms of spec'ing different engines, wheels, seats, etc. I know that if you wanted a sunroof or leather in a Toyota years ago it had to be an aftermarket job. Not sure if thats still the case mind you. This underlines the impression for me that they just don't market themselves at people who "like" cars.

    The interiors are never great either imo. The Jap interiors never do it for me, they always seem a decade behind the rest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,470 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    An oldie but a very funny Clarkson review of the early '90's Corolla.



  • Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JoeA3 wrote: »


    When I think Corolla, I think Padre Pio statues, Travellin to Flavin stickers, towbars, dealer fitted mudflaps, driving 30mph under the limit...

    Had to look this up and found



    God help us all


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    I'll probably get in trouble for posting this but very few settled folk drive the Avensis down my way as every traveller in the place has one.The wives drive a Yaris.
    A mate of mine bought one about 18 months ago and I joked that he'd get waves from every traveller in the county. He laughed it off but rang me a few days later saying that was exactly what was happening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭Cheensbo


    You mean they didnt avail of the 10% off the new Mercedes E class down your way?

    It's nearly exclusively Navaras and E Classes round here, save for the odd mk7/8 golf.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    Cheensbo wrote: »
    You mean they didnt avail of the 10% off the new Mercedes E class down your way?

    It's nearly exclusively Navaras and E Classes round here, save for the odd mk7/8 golf.

    A few were taken away by CAB a while back.
    They lease a lot of their commercial vehicles now,the Toyota's are the "non business" vehicles.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,363 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    zerks wrote: »
    I'll probably get in trouble for posting this but very few settled folk drive the Avensis down my way as every traveller in the place has one.The wives drive a Yaris.
    A mate of mine bought one about 18 months ago and I joked that he'd get waves from every traveller in the county. He laughed it off but rang me a few days later saying that was exactly what was happening.

    Interestingly enough most of the unwashed drive Passats and A4s down here. When I had a CC I used get saluted all the time by those heads. The Jetta seem to be the road legal tractor for farmers down here too, most still having the obligatory bail of hay in the open boot that is tied down to the hitch.


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