Location of stairs

Laney17

Excuse my ignorance (in VERY early stages of house design!) but why do most Irish houses have their stairs located in front hall?Is it against regulations to have them in main living area?And if not,is it for more practical reasons..like limiting the noise that travels from downstairs to upstairs?!

mrsWhippy

One of the benefits is that often, the back of your house will be the living/dining/kitchen areas which will be south/west facing. Your hall door as a result will most likely be east/north. Makes sense not to take up valuable sunny living space with your stairs.

I know there are also building regulations about having stairs in or close to your kitchen.

sydthebeat

traditionally the stairs was in the main living area in rural dwellings.

Urban georgian / edwardian houses were quite regimented in their design with a central stairwell in a foyer.... and i guess the idea of this spread to bigger rural dwellings.

but anyway.... the new fire regs from this year make sit easier to design situations in which stairs can discharge into an open plan living space.

Sausage dog

I think there may be something in the building regs about how close the stairs should be to an exit.

Laney17

Yes that makes sense..practical reason that I would never have thought of!thanks a mil for reply!
quote="mrsWhippy;104405773"]One of the benefits is that often, the back of your house will be the living/dining/kitchen areas which will be south/west facing. Your hall door as a result will most likely be east/north. Makes sense not to take up valuable sunny living space with your stairs.

I know there are also building regulations about having stairs in or close to your kitchen.[/quote]

Laney17

OK this is great to know..I'd like at least the choice to put the stairs in living area..will discuss all with architect and he-l inform me but just curious at this early stage when doing my own research..thanks a mil😉
quote="sydthebeat;104405843"]traditionally the stairs was in the main living area in rural dwellings.

Urban georgian / edwardian houses were quite regimented in their design with a central stairwell in a foyer.... and i guess the idea of this spread to bigger rural dwellings.

but anyway.... the new fire regs from this year make sit easier to design situations in which stairs can discharge into an open plan living space.[/quote]

Laney17

Thanks a mil,good to know.suppose this would def influence where exactly it was located...and by the door prob easiest way of insuring this!

Sausage dog wrote: »

I think there may be something in the building regs about how close the stairs should be to an exit.

Prenderb

There's some parts of the building regulations which ensure that the building's occupants can escape in a fire. A single stairs in a house is usually the only means of escape for upstairs occupants, so it's important that it is protected from parts of the house that fire is likely to start in. It's not impossible to have stairs in the sitting rooms, but it's not usual.

As fires are (in general) more likely to start in kitchens, living rooms and other rooms, the hallway that your stairs is situated in is protected to some extent from a fire by the doors and walls surrounding the hallway, so when your smoke alarms activate and wake you up, you can get downstairs easily and out the front door. If your stair came down into the sitting room, and a fire had started in the sitting room, escape would be a much different proposition.

This is why most fire services say check your smoke alarms weekly and close your doors every night before going to bed, and keep the stairs clear.

Mellor

mrsWhippy wrote: »

One of the benefits is that often, the back of your house will be the living/dining/kitchen areas which will be south/west facing. Your hall door as a result will most likely be east/north. Makes sense not to take up valuable sunny living space with your stairs.

I know there are also building regulations about having stairs in or close to your kitchen.

For almost every house facing north, there's a house on the opposite side of the road facing south.

Mellor

Prenderb wrote: »

There's some parts of the building regulations which ensure that the building's occupants can escape in a fire. A single stairs in a house is usually the only means of escape for upstairs occupants, so it's important that it is protected from parts of the house that fire is likely to start in. It's not impossible to have stairs in the sitting rooms, but it's not usual.

As fires are (in general) more likely to start in kitchens, living rooms and other rooms, the hallway that your stairs is situated in is protected to some extent from a fire by the doors and walls surrounding the hallway, so when your smoke alarms activate and wake you up, you can get downstairs easily and out the front door. If your stair came down into the sitting room, and a fire had started in the sitting room, escape would be a much different proposition.

This is why most fire services say check your smoke alarms weekly and close your doors every night before going to bed, and keep the stairs clear.

Those are all modern reasons for why the stairs is usually restricted to a hallway. But the actually architectural reasons go back a few hundred years at this point.

Laney17

I would never gave thought of the implications if a fire started!thanks a lot for that😉

Prenderb wrote: »

There's some parts of the building regulations which ensure that the building's occupants can escape in a fire. A single stairs in a house is usually the only means of escape for upstairs occupants, so it's important that it is protected from parts of the house that fire is likely to start in. It's not impossible to have stairs in the sitting rooms, but it's not usual.

As fires are (in general) more likely to start in kitchens, living rooms and other rooms, the hallway that your stairs is situated in is protected to some extent from a fire by the doors and walls surrounding the hallway, so when your smoke alarms activate and wake you up, you can get downstairs easily and out the front door. If your stair came down into the sitting room, and a fire had started in the sitting room, escape would be a much different proposition.

This is why most fire services say check your smoke alarms weekly and close your doors every night before going to bed, and keep the stairs clear.

DaDerv

We designed our house with an architect and submitted planning with an open plan kitchen/living and the stairs are located to the front in a double height room. No issue with planning on this regard. No fire regulations etc. We have had to submit FI around obscuring windows but no mention of the stairs as a design or safety issue.

Personally I really dislike an entrance hallway with a staircase and doors leading off. Seems a terrible waste of space. We wanted to make a feature of the stairs. Architect did an excellent job and we are delighted with the end result.

Water John

Well, you can make the 'hallway', a room, so that it has other uses. I think a narrow hall is a waste of space.

Mellor

DaDerv wrote: »

We designed our house with an architect and submitted planning with an open plan kitchen/living and the stairs are located to the front in a double height room. No issue with planning on this regard. No fire regulations etc. We have had to submit FI around obscuring windows but no mention of the stairs as a design or safety issue.

Personally I really dislike an entrance hallway with a staircase and doors leading off. Seems a terrible waste of space. We wanted to make a feature of the stairs. Architect did an excellent job and we are delighted with the end result.

FYI planning permission is based on planning and develoent act, not building regs. Getting something submitted to planning doesn't it's a design that meets building regulations. At the very least, Is expect them to attach a clause to it that says "all work in accordance with building regulations" or words to that effect.

An open plan is possible, but there are extra requirements;

1.3.2.1
An open-plan arrangement, where the stairway rises directly from the ground storey accommodation is less preferable than the arrangement at (b) above and is only acceptable where:

(a) the stairway discharges to within 4.5 m of a door (final exit) at the ground storey leading directly to the open air;

(b) the stairway does not discharge into a kitchen (see Diagram 1(a)) and either;

(i) any ground storey kitchen,where the cooking facilities are within 3 m of the stairway is enclosed in storey height construction which need not be fire resisting (see Diagram 1(b)) or ;

(ii) where the stairway passes within
3 m of the cooking facilities, the stairway should be shielded to the foot of the stairs with ceiling – height construction which need not be fire-resisting;

(c) a fire detection and alarm system is provided, in accordance with 1.3.6
(d) all habitable rooms at the upper storey are provided with windows for escape or rescue in accordance with 1.3.7; and
(e) the design meets the general provisions for dwelling houses, outlined in 1.3.9.

DaDerv

Mellor wrote:

FYI planning permission is based on planning and develoent act, not building regs. Getting something submitted to planning doesn't it's a design that meets building regulations. At the very least, Is expect them to attach a clause to it that says "all work in accordance with building regulations" or words to that effect.

Appreciate that, but these regulations are realistically very easily met and attainable unless the house is extremely small.

I just feel a lot of the posts here are against the idea of stairs in anywhere besides a segregated front hall, which was the original query of the OP, when in fact this is not a requirement and from a design perspective is not at all essential.

BryanF

DaDerv wrote: »

Appreciate that, but these regulations are realistically very easily met and attainable unless the house is extremely small.

I just feel a lot of the posts here are against the idea of stairs in anywhere besides a segregated front hall, which was the original query of the OP, when in fact this is not a requirement and from a design perspective is not at all essential.

If a fire starts downstairs..

Mellor

DaDerv wrote: »

Appreciate that, but these regulations are realistically very easily met and attainable unless the house is extremely small.

It sounded like you were suggesting that it's not an issue in your case because it wasn't mentioned in FI. Which isn't correct. I was simply clarifying.

"Very easily met" is a gross understatement tbh. Easy to come down into a habitable living area which is not uncommon in old smaller houses.
But an open plan lurch is a different story. If your description above is accurate (open plan kitchen), then you haven't actually met the regulations.

I just feel a lot of the posts here are against the idea of stairs in anywhere besides a segregated front hall, which was the original query of the OP, when in fact this is not a requirement and from a design perspective is not at all essential.

OP asked why it was the case. He was given the reason why.

DaDerv

Mellor wrote:

"Very easily met" is a gross understatement tbh. Easy to come down into a habitable living area which is not uncommon in old smaller houses. But an open plan lurch is a different story. If your description above is accurate (open plan kitchen), then you haven't actually met the regulations.

Admittedly I could have explained better but was too tired for details! The open plan kitchen/living isn't all double height. The master bedroom and ensuite are above the kitchen and utility at one end of the house while the middle section is double height living area. The stairs are at the front of this area beginning from just inside the front door.

OP is in the early stages of designing a new house, hence why I said they are very easily met unless the house is extremely small. He most definitely won't be meeting any of the issues associated with old smaller houses unless its a renovation which it's not according to the original question. I think that any architect worth their salt will take regulations into account also.

Mellor

DaDerv wrote: »

Admittedly I could have explained better but was too tired for details! The open plan kitchen/living isn't all double height. The master bedroom and ensuite are above the kitchen and utility at one end of the house while the middle section is double height living area. The stairs are at the front of this area beginning from just inside the front door.

OP is in the early stages of designing a new house, hence why I said they are very easily met unless the house is extremely small. He most definitely won't be meeting any of the issues associated with old smaller houses unless its a renovation which it's not according to the original question. I think that any architect worth their salt will take regulations into account also.

Where these regulations brought up during the design discussions with your architect?
Obviously I can't be sure without seeing the plans in front of me. But from now that you've clarified the layout a little, it still sounds non-compliant, prehaps more do. Being double height was not the issue. It was the fact the open plan area included a kitchen that isn't separated.

It will really depend on the exact layout, and which version of Part B applies. It could well be the case that your architect is all over it.
But I'm sure you understand why I'm mentioning it, just in case.

DaDerv

Mellor wrote:

Where these regulations brought up during the design discussions with your architect? Obviously I can't be sure without seeing the plans in front of me. But from now that you've clarified the layout a little, it sounds even more so that it's non-compliant. Being double height was not the issue. It was the fact the open plan area included a kitchen that isn't separated.

No need to worry! The architect is certified and I've had two engineers look over the plans. No issues at all. It's hard to explain but I can assure you I'm within regulations!

Mellor

DaDerv wrote: »

No need to worry! The architect is certified and I've had two engineers look over the plans. No issues at all. It's hard to explain but I can assure you I'm within regulations!

The architect being certified doesn't mean anything. The design hasn't been certified yet.
If you're satisfied that it will thats good enough for me. But it wouldn't be the first time that a planning design had to be change during construction.

Laney17

Nice to.hear from someone who has actually done it,and successfully too.cheers.ps...any noise implications??(from living to bedrooms??this is my main concern!)


We designed our house with an architect and submitted planning with an open plan kitchen/living and the stairs are located to the front in a double height room. No issue with planning on this regard. No fire regulations etc. We have had to submit FI around obscuring windows but no mention of the stairs as a design or safety issue.

Personally I really dislike an entrance hallway with a staircase and doors leading off. Seems a terrible waste of space. We wanted to make a feature of the stairs. Architect did an excellent job and we are delighted with the end result.[/quote]

BryanF

Laney17 wrote: »

Nice to.hear from someone who has actually done it,and successfully too.cheers.ps...any noise implications??(from living to bedrooms??this is my main concern!)


We designed our house with an architect and submitted planning with an open plan kitchen/living and the stairs are located to the front in a double height room. No issue with planning on this regard. No fire regulations etc. We have had to submit FI around obscuring windows but no mention of the stairs as a design or safety issue.

Personally I really dislike an entrance hallway with a staircase and doors leading off. Seems a terrible waste of space. We wanted to make a feature of the stairs. Architect did an excellent job and we are delighted with the end result.

Just to reiterate, to make sure other posters don't get the wrong idea.

Planning has NOTHING to do with construction building regulations. Where the stairs is has NOTHING to do with planning.

Gumbo

BryanF wrote: »

Just to reiterate, to make sure other posters don't get the wrong idea.

Planning has NOTHING to do with construction building regulations. Where the stairs is has NOTHING to do with planning.

The shear amount of times I arrive on site and the home owners says "that's what's in my planning drawings", I simply state I don't want to even see your planning drawings. Show me the construction drawings that demonstrate compliance with building regulations.

Just this week I had a home owner trying to state that his house was a small dwelling and he doesn't need an accessible WC. I knew by looking at it, it was way above the 45 Sq. M so I asked him to guide me in running a laser around the house. He then questioned why I wasn't ommitting the bathrooms and other non habitable rooms in my figures !!!!

Still many people trying to float the regulations and that's from home owners, not just builders.

DaDerv

Just out of curiosity, seeing as I've had an architect, engineers, planners, builders and others involved in the process look over the plans and raised no issue, who would stop a build due to not abiding by building regulations?

Lumen

Surely an advantage of a separate hallway/stairs is that when you open the front door, you're dumping heat out of an area you don't normally occupy?

I thought there was something in the building regs about this.

Mellor

Lumen wrote: »

Surely an advantage of a separate hallway/stairs is that when you open the front door, you're dumping heat out of an area you don't normally occupy?

I thought there was something in the building regs about this.

That wouldn't make much difference, the heating doesn't know which room is which.
You might be thinking of a lobby which can reduces the amount of air that's dumped each time. If open both doors it's not going to be work of course.

Lumen

Mellor wrote: »

That wouldn't make much difference, the heating doesn't know which room is which.
You might be thinking of a lobby which can reduces the amount of air that's dumped each time. If open both doors it's not going to be work of course.

I mean that you can set the temperature of the hallway lower than the occupied rooms, which means it'll take less energy to get the space up to that lower temperature once the doors are closed again.

My hallway TRVs are set for about 15 degrees in winter for this reason.

sydthebeat

Lumen wrote: »

Surely an advantage of a separate hallway/stairs is that when you open the front door, you're dumping heat out of an area you don't normally occupy?

I thought there was something in the building regs about this.

you can still have a draught lobby at your front door, and also have this open plan arrangement internally. the two are not mutually exclusive.

the advantages of the open plan arrangement are:

1. less circulation space, therefore more usable space in rooms
2. easily to spread light through the plan, having less walls
3. centralised living in that all traffic goes through main living space

the disadvantages of the open plan arrangement are:

1. wider spans, more expensive engineering solutions
2. highly active rooms, significant noise spread
3. loss of privacy that goes with centralised living, in that all traffic goes through main living space

Mellor

DaDerv wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, seeing as I've had an architect, engineers, planners, builders and others involved in the process look over the plans and raised no issue, who would stop a build due to not abiding by building regulations?

I believe you said you had submitted the application (and an FI request) but had not got a decision. Is that right?
Planning stage is was working out planning issues. The planners will attached a condition to the grant that says all regs to be adhered to. But by and large planners have no clue about building regulations. Your engineer probably considered very little outside his scope. Which was presumably structure and not Fire engineering.

A good architect will keep regs in mind at planning stage. But if he's knows he's not involved post planning he might be content to let who ever picks up the construction worry about it.
Ultimately it falls to whoever is certifing that your build complies with regs.

DaDerv

Mellor wrote:

A good architect will keep regs in mind at planning stage. But if he's knows he's not involved post planning he might be content to let who ever picks up the construction worry about it. Ultimately it falls to whoever is certifing that your build complies with regs.

The Architect is certified and will be looking after all that. When I said that earlier you said it didn't matter if they're certified and the building had to be certified? Is there a middle man who does this or who am I missing?

Gumbo

DaDerv wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, seeing as I've had an architect, engineers, planners, builders and others involved in the process look over the plans and raised no issue, who would stop a build due to not abiding by building regulations?

Building Control.
They are the only people who haven't seen your plans until you are at construction stage. And once you are at construction stage you should have construction drawings.

Gumbo

Lumen wrote: »

I mean that you can set the temperature of the hallway lower than the occupied rooms, which means it'll take less energy to get the space up to that lower temperature once the doors are closed again.

My hallway TRVs are set for about 15 degrees in winter for this reason.

You should measure the air temp in the hall relative to the other rooms at that time. The heat from other rooms will trickle into the hall and the whole house would be at an averaged temp imo.

Mellor

Lumen wrote: »

The Architect is certified and will be looking after all that. When I said that earlier you said it didn't matter if they're certified and the building had to be certified? Is there a middle man who does this or who am I missing?

You have to get it certified design and building conforms with building regulations. The process involves building control and there a few professionals who can facilitate this.
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,38154,en.pdf

Using an architect that is certified doesn't guarantee anything in regards to building regulations.
What do you mean by the "architect is certified" by the way. Do you mean registered or something else.

DaDerv

Mellor wrote: »

You have to get it certified design and building conforms with building regulations. The process involves building control and there a few professionals who can facilitate this.
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C38154%2Cen.pdf

Using an architect that is certified doesn't guarantee anything in regards to building regulations.
What do you mean by the "architect is certified" by the way. Do you mean registered or something else.

OK so my understanding is that you don't require anyone else to sign off on the build, or the middle man like i asked?

This is taken from your PDF:

4.2 Who can sign as the Design Certifier and/or as the Assigned Certifier
4.2.1 Assigned Certifier and Design Certifier
The following may be appointed and sign as the Assigned Certifier, provided they are
competent in relation to the particular works involved:
(a) Architects that are on the register maintained by the RIAI under Part 3 of the
Building Control Act 2007;

This is taken from the RIAI with regard to a Design Certifier:

"The Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland (RIAI) has recently clarified a key element of the new Building Control (Amendment) Regulations i.e. that the Design Certifier must have a separate agreement with the building owner (even if the Design Certifier is also the Architect and/or the Assigned Certifier)."

So basically as long as you are using a qualified, or what i thought was a Certified Architect, he/she can carry out all of these without involvement of another person through Building Control. There is no separate entity that carries this out or any further checks, its just another appointment or conversation with your architect or perhaps an engineer. If you have a qualified Architect they can carry this out.

caddy16

At the design stage. My description probably isn't the best but......

Stairs is in hallway but not facing the front door, the opposite direction. I was looking to have dual access to the stairs from the hallway on one side and the other leading in to open plan area. In this instance would I need a door on the open plan side?

As I say I'm probably not clear in my description and I cant locate a picture of what I want but any advise appreciated.

Mellor

caddy16 wrote: »

At the design stage. My description probably isn't the best but......

Stairs is in hallway but not facing the front door, the opposite direction. I was looking to have dual access to the stairs from the hallway on one side and the other leading in to open plan area. In this instance would I need a door on the open plan side?

As I say I'm probably not clear in my description and I cant locate a picture of what I want but any advise appreciated.

Depends on how close the kitchen is. It has to be far enough away, in a separate room or a full height wall separating the stairs.
Part B (2016) has diagrams highlighting how you arrange the floor plan.