How long before we see 400km cars from mainstream manufacturers?

Casati

I like the idea of the cheap fuel that electric motoring brings, but I can't live with the range of any of car bar the Tesla's.

How long will I have to wait until I can buy a sub 40k car with at least say 400 km range driving on the motorway? Is the Tesla Model 3 the only car in the pipeline that will do this?

I'm considering trading my Superb 2.0 TDI next year and am considering all options but it's quite likely I'll go diesel again based on the choice available, but I'd like to know what my the market might look like in another 3 or 4 years

KCross

Casati wrote: »

I like the idea of the cheap fuel that electric motoring brings, but I can't live with the range of any of car bar the Tesla's.

How long will I have to wait until I can buy a sub 40k car with at least say 400 km range driving on the motorway? Is the Tesla Model 3 the only car in the pipeline that will do this?

I'm considering trading my Superb 2.0 TDI next year and am considering all options but it's quite likely I'll go diesel again based on the choice available, but I'd like to know what my the market might look like in another 3 or 4 years

In 3 or 4 years the only one will probably still be the Model 3 and that would be for the long range version which won't be <40k so realistically you are looking closer to 2025 for something that matches all your requirements and thats still only a guess because there haven't been any announcements for 400km EVs for under €40k


The burning question that every existing EV driver will be asking you though is.... why do you need 400km range at motorway speed? How often do you do that?

It might be a case of cutting off your nose despite your face if a 300km car exists and available in 2018. Just a thought.

Evd-Burner

KCross wrote: »

The burning question that every existing EV driver will be asking you though is.... why do you need 400km range at motorway speed? How often do you do that?

It might be a case of cutting off your nose despite your face if a 300km car exists and available in 2018. Just a thought.

To be completely honest, I would much rather have a cheaper to buy EV with 250km motorway speeds with 100KW charging enabling the car to 80% charge in save 15 minutes, the time to stretch the legs, use a restroom and grab a coffee. Something that most people do on a journey anyway!

Unfortunately however this would require the infrastructure to be there, for one to make the decision to buy an EV with a smaller battery you would need to know that the infrastructure is there and know that you would never be left waiting on a fast charger while on long journeys.

unkel

Who would do over 400km at motorway speeds without stopping? I mean that's Cork to Belfast. Would take 4.5 hours according to Google maps and that's probably optimistic, not taking account traffic on the M50, etc. Not comfortable and not safe to do that without stopping. And that's probably the only >400km stretch you can do in Ireland without going off motorway or coming across a traffic light.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Who would do over 400km at motorway speeds without stopping? I mean that's Cork to Belfast. Would take 4.5 hours according to Google maps and that's probably optimistic, not taking account traffic on the M50, etc. Not comfortable and not safe to do that without stopping. And that's probably the only >400km stretch you can do in Ireland without going off motorway or coming across a traffic light.

If 400 km take 4.5 hours, it wasn't really motorway speed...

Around 30 times I did 700 km during one day - total journey time always was around 7h. That included all the roadworks and stops to eat, tank and other stuff. That is my benchmark now - long motorway driving - 100km/h. Shorter motorway driving (less than 4 hours) I can do without stopping - around 110 km/h.

Living on an island changes our perception a bit and the Belfast-Cork journey seems as long as like a trip to Mordor. It isn't really, it can be easily done without stopping.

flaneur

Not too long I suspect. I was watching NHK and there's a full electric version of the Prius on its way with very good battery life.

grogi

flaneur wrote: »

Not too long I suspect. I was watching NHK and there's a full electric version of the Prius on its way with very good battery life.

The problem is not engineering such vehicle, but producing it in big volumes. Battery supply will be limiting the supply in the foreseeable future.

Casati

grogi wrote: »

The problem is not engineering such vehicle, but producing it in big volumes. Battery supply will be limiting the supply in the foreseeable future.

I don't really understand that, surely if we can see cars like the Ioniq hit the market at 25k after rebates, could they not lash in a battery double the size and charge 10k more?

I drive from south Kerry to Dublin weekly and I don't want to be stopping unless I have to, it's just three hours. Another poster put it well about the infrastructure for fast charging and from reading many of the other threads it looks like a lot of owners only charge at home or work.

I like to have a bit of range in Dublin when I get there and as I don't drive till I have zero diesel in the tank I would like not to have to run a battery to zero. Have said that a car with a range of 350 would be ok. In fairness I'm not that unusual in wanting 400 km range, I have a 1000 at the moment!

I looked at Tesla's website and am tempted to stick down a grand for a Model 3.

liamog

There is the Chevy Bolt that has an EPA range of 380km.
It's sold as the Opel Ampera-E in Europe, unfortunately there are no plans to develop a right hand drive version.

Opel have claimed that it costs them $130/kWh for the battery, they are using LG Cells, so that gives us an idea of the price for bulk orders from LG.

Nissan are rumoured to release a 60kWh version of the Leaf2 using LG Cells.
I think we'll see 60kWh become the new normal in the near future, there is around a 2 year turnaround for new battery manufacturing, it will only take a commitment from major manufacturer and we could see a major change.

BMW have supposedly cancelled the planned I5 in favour of electrifying their existing vehicles. I would not be surprised to see a 60kWh BMW 3 Series by 2020 with a range of 350/400km, it will be a direct answer to the Tesla Model 3.

oppenheimer1

Evd-Burner wrote: »

To be completely honest, I would much rather have a cheaper to buy EV with 250km motorway speeds with 100KW charging enabling the car to 80% charge in save 15 minutes, the time to stretch the legs, use a restroom and grab a coffee. Something that most people do on a journey anyway!

This line is often trotted out. EV drivers must have bladders the size of a snooker ball if they have to stop for a break on a 2hr journey.

If you have to stop for a charge, then say you have to stop for a charge, don't try to dismiss or minimise it by saying you'd be stopping anyway.

unkel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This line is often trotted out. EV drivers must have bladders the size of a snooker ball if they have to stop for a break on a 2hr journey.

This thread is about 400km range cars. A 400km journey in Ireland would take at least 4.5 hours (according to Google). It would be unwise / unsafe / uncomfortable without stopping. And let me guess, you have no kids?

eeguy

unkel wrote: »

This thread is about 400km range cars. A 400km journey in Ireland would take at least 4.5 hours (according to Google). It would be unwise / unsafe / uncomfortable without stopping. And let me guess, you have no kids?

Not really. If you have the cruise control set its very doable to do something like that. I often do Cork to Dundalk at nearly 4 hours non stop.

Its all motorway all at the same speed and nearly all in the same lane.

Range is the only factor that's stopping me buying. If I had 400km I'd be set.

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

This thread is about 400km range cars. A 400km journey in Ireland would take at least 4.5 hours (according to Google). It would be unwise / unsafe / uncomfortable without stopping. And let me guess, you have no kids?

What?! It's perfectly safe to drive for 4.5hrs without a break.

But I was responding to the point that drivers would be stopping anyway every 250km which is total nonsense.

unkel

^^^

Neither of you have small kids so

But seriously. Every automobile association in Europe recommends to not drive more than 2 hours at a time. I thought that was common sense too. I've driven regularly from Dublin to the very top of Inishowen before there were motorways in one stop, but that wasn't particularly safe. And I obviously didn't have any children in the car with me.

pwurple

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This line is often trotted out. EV drivers must have bladders the size of a snooker ball if they have to stop for a break on a 2hr journey.

If you have to stop for a charge, then say you have to stop for a charge, don't try to dismiss or minimise it by saying you'd be stopping anyway.

:rolleyes:
Or Children.

I can't drive from Cok to kenmare without one of them needing some bloody thing. The car can do it just fine.

But you work away with your derailment.

Orebro

People that insist on being able to drive for 4.5 hours without stopping are the exception rather than the rule, and EVs aren't there yet to meet your needs - simple as.

It's the ordinary Joe soap that asks me can you drive to Dublin in it without stopping is what gets me - I usually ask when was he last time you drove to Dublin / how many times did you drive there last year and the answer (after taking a while thinking about it) is usually a very low number indeed!

Casati

Orebro wrote: »

People that insist on being able to drive for 4.5 hours without stopping are the exception rather than the rule, and EVs aren't there yet to meet your needs - simple as.

It's the ordinary Joe soap that asks me can you drive to Dublin in it without stopping is what gets me - I usually ask when was he last time you drove to Dublin / how many times did you drive there last year and the answer (after taking a while thinking about it) is usually a very low number indeed!

Having to stop at a specific charge point and likely queue behind another car is very different to stopping where I see an opportunity to stop. Even so I generally don't stop even with the kids but it's more of a realisation that our network for charging is poor and I wouldn't rely on it. Also although the public charging is free that will change in the future so that's the one thing that would put me off ordering the Tesla now.

To be honest staying overnight and charging in Dublin won't be easy as I park on the road and don't have charging during the day so even with 400km range it mightn't work as easily as my diesel does today

I googled the 3 series and they are saying 234 miles and 2019/ 2020 so I guess that's around the same time the Tesla 3 is available here, surprised it's not in the news a bit more.

The Chevy Bolt looks tiny but the range is great, guess with GM selling Opel it will mean it will never get here but it's great to see options like this out there

grogi

Casati wrote: »

I don't really understand that, surely if we can see cars like the Ioniq hit the market at 25k after rebates, could they not lash in a battery double the size and charge 10k more?

Because there aren't enough factories to make batteries for them.

Ioniq is a brilliant example of my thesis. It is done, engineered, designed. Brilliant car. But it is very difficult to buy one - waiting times are comparable to those for Skoda Kodiaq...

zilog_jones

grogi wrote: »

If 400 km take 4.5 hours, it wasn't really motorway speed...

4.5 hours for Cork to Belfast is pretty accurate in my experience, though I usually stop along the way (often twice). There are several sections that are not motorway (N7, A1), or with reduced speed limits and heavy traffic (M50, M1 near Belfast).

A 300km EV would be fine for me for this kind of trip (which I do maybe once a year).

grogi

zilog_jones wrote: »

4.5 hours for Cork to Belfast is pretty accurate in my experience, though I usually stop along the way (often twice). There are several sections that are not motorway (N7, A1), or with reduced speed limits and heavy traffic (M50, M1 near Belfast).

I did it only once, before the Newlands Cross junction was done. I forgot that motorway limit in Ireland is 120, not 130/140 like in the continental Europe. That slows the journey down alright.

zilog_jones wrote: »

A 300km EV would be fine for me for this kind of trip (which I do maybe once a year).

Absolutely. Stopping every 200km to charge is not really that inconvienent. Doing it every 100km is...

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

^^^

Neither of you have small kids so

But seriously. Every automobile association in Europe recommends to not drive more than 2 hours at a time. I thought that was common sense too. I've driven regularly from Dublin to the very top of Inishowen before there were motorways in one stop, but that wasn't particularly safe. And I obviously didn't have any children in the car with me.

If it's unsafe to drive for greater than two hours at a time, then why is the limit for professional drivers 4.5hrs?Being a professional driver doesn't immunise you against the effects of fatigue, and driving a HGV requires much higher levels of concentration than a car on cruise.


There is absolutely no need for a healthy adult to stop every two hours for fatigue reasons. If you find yourself needing to stop more often you should see a doctor.

ELM327

grogi wrote: »

Absolutely. Stopping every 200km to charge is not really that inconvienent. Doing it every 100km is...

Compare that for all 24kWh leaf drivers, driving 100km on a motorway is but a pipe dream(especially if it is not the first leg leaving home with 100%).
Not possible without driving below 100km/h

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There is absolutely no need for a healthy adult to stop every two hours for fatigue reasons. If you find yourself needing to stop more often you should see a doctor.

2 hours would be the limit of my "comfort range", as it would for the two kids.
We would not have driven in an ICE for 4.5 hours.

I agree that it is not unsafe to drive 4.5 hours straight, but just impractical in my case. And I'm sure that is also true for other EV that are used as family cars.

Soarer

Lads, we go over the same stuff ad infinitum.

Current EVs will suit some, not others.
If you want a 400km range, they don't suit.
If you want a 300km range, they don't suit.
If you want to drive to Dublin at motorway speeds without stopping, they don't suit.
If you want to drive over 200kms in one sitting, they mostly don't suit.

But if you're not in the above categories, the Ioniq and Leaf 2 will meet 95%+ of your driving requirements.
You can get to Dublin at motorway speeds with one 15 minute stop.
You can get to Dublin without stopping by reducing your motorway speed to 100km/h.
You can easily do 200kms in one sitting on regional roads.

If you're not willing to compromise a bit of time and effort for fuel savings, then current EVs aren't for you.

Orebro

Nice one Soarer - that should be a sticky!

Casati

Soarer wrote: »

Lads, we go over the same stuff ad infinitum.

Current EVs will suit some, not others.
If you want a 400km range, they don't suit.
If you want a 300km range, they don't suit.
If you want to drive to Dublin at motorway speeds without stopping, they don't suit.
If you want to drive over 200kms in one sitting, they mostly don't suit.

But if you're not in the above categories, the Ioniq and Leaf 2 will meet 95%+ of your driving requirements.
You can get to Dublin at motorway speeds with one 15 minute stop.
You can get to Dublin without stopping by reducing your motorway speed to 100km/h.
You can easily do 200kms in one sitting on regional roads.

If you're not willing to compromise a bit of time and effort for fuel savings, then current EVs aren't for you.

In fairness as the OP I'd like to clarify I was asking about the rollout of cars in the future, I understand that today's batch of cars would be too much of a compromise at the moment

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

Lads, we go over the same stuff ad infinitum.

Current EVs will suit some, not others.
If you want a 400km range, they don't suit.
If you want a 300km range, they don't suit.
If you want to drive to Dublin at motorway speeds without stopping, they don't suit.
If you want to drive over 200kms in one sitting, they mostly don't suit.

But if you're not in the above categories, the Ioniq and Leaf 2 will meet 95%+ of your driving requirements.
You can get to Dublin at motorway speeds with one 15 minute stop.
You can get to Dublin without stopping by reducing your motorway speed to 100km/h.
You can easily do 200kms in one sitting on regional roads.

If you're not willing to compromise a bit of time and effort for fuel savings, then current EVs aren't for you.

Soarer, that's all fair enough. Can't argue with that.

The main issue I have is with people saying that there is no reason the current generation of EVs don't suit nearly everybody because everyone should be taking a break after two hours driving, for safety reasons. This is of course complete nonsense - there is nothing unsafe in continuous driving for twice that length of time. If you want to extend that argument you may as well say to the manufacturers to stop further developing the cars, range is adequate now, job done.

Soarer

Casati wrote: »

In fairness as the OP I'd like to clarify I was asking about the rollout of cars in the future, I understand that today's batch of cars would be too much of a compromise at the moment

Ah yeah, that wasn't a dig at you.

But it seems, irrespective of what "Does an EV suit me? Should I buy an EV? etc." type thread that's started, it always seems to come back to summer range/winter range/ a/c on range/ motorway range.....

IMO, now that I own and "understand" EVs, I'm more than willing to make compromises. If I had to go to Dublin from Cork a couple of times a week, and "normal" driving the rest of the week, I'd have no problem buying an Ioniq /Leaf 2, and either reduce my speed or stop for a quick charge. My time isn't worth more than the savings I'd make!
But again, that's a personal choice. Others will want to fill their car, sit at 130km/h, and travel up and down without stopping. I'd rather have the €50 in my pocket.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Soarer, that's all fair enough. Can't argue with that.

The main issue I have is with people saying that there is no reason the current generation of EVs don't suit nearly everybody because everyone should be taking a break after two hours driving, for safety reasons. This is of course complete nonsense - there is nothing unsafe in continuous driving for twice that length of time. If you want to extend that argument you may as well say to the manufacturers to stop further developing the cars, range is adequate now, job done.

Put a cross on the wall, but I agree 100%.

If I were in my old 01 Astra diesel, I'd never stop no matter where I was traveling to*. Fill the car, do my business before I leave, and stay on the road until the job is done.
But now, as mentioned above, I'd rather adjust my journey and save the few quid.

* - To clarify, that's not when I'm traveling with the kids (8 & 6). We could go for 60-90 minutes tops before cabin fever kicks in. So I can fully understand people having to stop to clear the air, and plugging the car in even for 5 minutes, would take the edge off.

Water John

Yes, the EV range you are looking for is coming. Certainly less than 5 years, possibly 3. I would question myself though as to would I purchase a new diesel car, now.
These are the decisions more people will be making.

KCross

Water John wrote: »

Yes, the EV range you are looking for is coming. Certainly less than 5 years, possibly 3. I would question myself though as to would I purchase a new diesel car, now.
These are the decisions more people will be making.

I think the ops issue isn't just the range, its all the requirements put together will be his blocker.... 400km range at motorway speed, <€40k.

I don't think you will get that in 3-5yrs time. Could be wrong of course.


The best bet is that a 55-60kWh Leaf II will come out which should be well under €40k. The thing is it will probably not do 400km at motorway speed... closer to 300km at a guess.

Would the op compromise to 300km at motorway speed? I think you would have options to look at in a few years if you made that compromise.... primarily extended range versions of Leaf II and Ioniq II which should be both under €40k.

unkel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it's unsafe to drive for greater than two hours at a time, then why is the limit for professional drivers 4.5hrs?Being a professional driver doesn't immunise you against the effects of fatigue, and driving a HGV requires much higher levels of concentration than a car

What planet do you live on? An experienced professional, driving a HGV @80km/h for 4.5 hours requires far less concentration and is far safer than the average man driving a family car with his family with 2-3 small kids in it @120km/h for 2 hours.

The accident figures per million miles will prove me right if anyone has them handy.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

The best bet is that a 55-60kWh Leaf II will come out which should be well under €40k.

The one danger we are in is that we presume the government will keep paying the €10k subsidy to new EV owners for years to come. I doubt that will be the case, as it is not a very efficient way to spend tax money to get people to move to EVs. And a Nissan Leaf for €50k is not something more than a handful of people would ever contemplate to buy.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

What planet do you live on? An experienced professional, driving a HGV @80km/h for 4.5 hours requires far less concentration and is far safer than the average man driving a family car with his family with 2-3 small kids in it @120km/h for 2 hours.

The accident figures per million miles will prove me right if anyone has them handy.

Let's agree on vocabulary...

Driving with 3 kids is not driving. It is hell (also known as driving and minding) and stops every 2 hours are a must.

Driving is when you are alone or with a handsome blond, whose sex is determined by your preference... In the latter case you want to stop after 15 minutes...

eeguy

unkel wrote: »

What planet do you live on? An experienced professional, driving a HGV @80km/h for 4.5 hours requires far less concentration and is far safer than the average man driving a family car with his family with 2-3 small kids in it @120km/h for 2 hours.

The accident figures per million miles will prove me right if anyone has them handy.

Also nobody mentioned kids. The OP doesn't mention it. The first comments don't mention it.

You're the only one talking about driving with children and you're using it as some sort of justification that nobody needs a car with >300km range.

The OP: How long will I have to wait until I can buy a sub 40k car with at least say 400 km range driving on the motorway?

Unkel: Sure why do you need 400km? It's unsafe. You need to stop for your health and your kids! Do you have kids?

unkel

Haha, fair enough

Still point stands, every motoring organisation recommends to stop for at least 15 minutes after 2 hours driving for safety reasons. This obviously doesn't apply to professional HGV drivers doing 80km/h...

enumbers

interested how badly does range get effected by say every 10kmph over 100kmph you travel say if u travel at 120 normally does this kill range

grogi

enumbers wrote: »

interested how badly does range get effected by say every 10kmph over 100kmph you travel say if u travel at 120 normally does this kill range

If you average 100km/h with range 200km, at 110km/h you'll get 165km. 120km/h and 140km, 130km/h and 120km and 100km at 140km/h. Those are rough approximations, but would give you the idea of the penalty...

Going slower than 80 km/h does not really increase the range any further...

Casati

grogi wrote: »

If you average 100km/h with range 200km, at 110km/h you'll get 165km. 120km/h and 140km, 130km/h and 120km and 100km at 140km/h. Those are rough approximations, but would give you the idea of the penalty...

Going slower than 80 km/h does not really increase the range any further...

I think I'm still safe enough following 70% of buyers and buying another diesel but I'm tempted by a 330e or something similar next time around. I may hang onto my Superb for another year and see the lay of the land then. Even a 300 km range would be a pita for me at the moment

Orebro

You've no business getting a BEV at the moment that's for sure.

unkel

enumbers wrote: »

interested how badly does range get effected by say every 10kmph over 100kmph you travel say if u travel at 120 normally does this kill range

Very badly, even in the cars with the best aerodynamics in the world like the Tesla Model S and the Ioniq

And in cars with mediocer aerodynamics it's plain brutal. Like a Leaf at 130km/h would maybe go just half the distance it would go doing 90km/h (Ioniq maybe two thirds)

KCross

Casati wrote: »

I think I'm still safe enough following 70% of buyers and buying another diesel...

Thats an interesting comment. Was/Is your motivation for EV based on fear of your diesel being worthless in 3-5yrs time because EV's have taken over? If yes, have no fear that aint happening!

Or is your motivation fuel cost savings? If yes, you will certainly get that with EV now but you'll have to compromise for it based on your long trip Kerry-Dublin.

Whats your daily commute like?

You should run the numbers of your fuel savings and still see if the compromise on your weekend trip is worth it or not. There's more to life than money but I think its worth running the numbers before ruling it out.

Casati wrote: »

... but I'm tempted by a 330e or something similar next time around.

Very unlikely that a PHEV would be a good buy for you. They have mediocre mpg on long journeys.

Casati wrote: »

I may hang onto my Superb for another year and see the lay of the land then. Even a 300 km range would be a pita for me at the moment

Your South Kerry --> Dublin trip would definitely require a stop (even in a few years time based on the requirements you gave) so if thats a compromise too far, you will be in diesel for a while yet.

Casati

KCross wrote: »

Thats an interesting comment. Was/Is your motivation for EV based on fear of your diesel being worthless in 3-5yrs time because EV's have taken over? If yes, have no fear that aint happening!

Or is your motivation fuel cost savings? If yes, you will certainly get that with EV now but you'll have to compromise for it based on your long trip Kerry-Dublin.

Whats your daily commute like?

You should run the numbers of your fuel savings and still see if the compromise on your weekend trip is worth it or not. There's more to life than money but I think its worth running the numbers before ruling it out.




Very unlikely that a PHEV would be a good buy for you. They have mediocre mpg on long journeys.




Your South Kerry --> Dublin trip would definitely require a stop (even in a few years time based on the requirements you gave) so if thats a compromise too far, you will be in diesel for a while yet.

Motivation for electric is many not least of all are fuel savings, and I certainly am keeping an eye on potential diesel values, at the moment, though despite the anti diesel news cars like mine are making good money.

The 330e returns about 7 l per 100km which isn't bad but that car would only work if the OH also changes her car

knipex

unkel wrote: »

Who would do over 400km at motorway speeds without stopping? I mean that's Cork to Belfast. Would take 4.5 hours according to Google maps and that's probably optimistic, not taking account traffic on the M50, etc. Not comfortable and not safe to do that without stopping. And that's probably the only >400km stretch you can do in Ireland without going off motorway or coming across a traffic light.

I would reasonably regularly do 300 to 400km in a day with multiple small stops for quick meeting or a quick coffee. Normally under pretty tight timelines.

On paper a 300km EV would work fine.

But I have a meeting an in an ind est with no charger. I finished my meeting from 15km to a fast charger to discover there is a car plugged in with 2 more waiting, or its broken or some twat has plugged in and gone to do their shopping. Set me back an hour which screws my entire day..

Even assuming I do 300km max of 300km a day I wouldn't touch an EV until I am assured at least 400km. or a vastly better infrastructure.

knipex

unkel wrote: »

This thread is about 400km range cars. A 400km journey in Ireland would take at least 4.5 hours (according to Google). It would be unwise / unsafe / uncomfortable without stopping. And let me guess, you have no kids?

There is a huge difference between reality and and what google tells you..

The problem is you (and this isn't a dig at you or any EV driver, it tends to be a problem among-st any group trying to convince people) keep trying to bend reality to suit a particular set of rules or conditions.

I regularly drive 4 hours plus to without stopping. Charleville to Derry without stopping.. (try and find a convenient fast charger on that route)

Most people do not have the option of charging at work and as more people buy EV's it will become less and less common.

Many people don't live near fast chargers and don't have fast chargers or their regular routes.

60kwh batteries would require a 33amp power supply to charge from empty in 8 hours.. As batteries get bigger that will quickly grow to the point that do domestic house would have the capacity to charge their car overnight. Not without a complete overhaul of the grid and the regulations re wiring homes. An that's before we even consider 2 car homes..

I am a fan of electric propulsion. Hugely so. am trying to convince my wife to look at EV but its not ready for me to look at yet..

Plus we are a long long way from being able to support even 25 to 30% of all cars begin EV..

zilog_jones

knipex wrote: »

60kwh batteries would require a 33amp power supply to charge from empty in 8 hours.. As batteries get bigger that will quickly grow to the point that do domestic house would have the capacity to charge their car overnight. Not without a complete overhaul of the grid and the regulations re wiring homes. An that's before we even consider 2 car homes..

I'd imagine that people who are consuming 60 kWh per day would be in the minority, and those who are would be more likely to be using fast chargers along the way.

I'm sure we'll come to a stage where fast charging will become so fast and prevalent that it will be no different from going to a petrol station - by then, destination charging will no longer be necessary.

Water John

Agree with you Jones. Evs are not suitable for people like, sales reps, doing large mileage ATM. It'll probably require not just larger battery size or capacity, but combined with ultra fast charging.
These people are the last cohort that should switch to EV. Certainly over 80% of drivers come before them in the change over stakes.
In reality, this final group of long distance drivers, require a battery tech leap that hasn't been achieved, at a practical level yet.

unkel

knipex wrote: »

The problem is you (and this isn't a dig at you or any EV driver, it tends to be a problem among-st any group trying to convince people) keep trying to bend reality

Nobody here wants to force an EV onto someone for whom it is not suitable

With your further explanations, clearly current EVs are unsuitable for you at this stage - unless you can bag a Tesla

But fair play to you for keeping your eyes open and realising that in the not so distant future, it will likely be different. That said, you are clearly a minority now with your driving needs. For a majority of people in this country, a current gen EV would be fine to cover their needs. And to think that only just over 0.1% of our cars are EVs!!!

KCross

Casati wrote: »

The 330e returns about 7 l per 100km which isn't bad but that car would only work if the OH also changes her car

The thing with PHEV's is that the mpg can vary wildly.... excellent on short journeys because its mainly EV mode and terrible on long journeys because its mainly petrol. Everyone will have a different experience and usage pattern so its very much a case of YMMV.

If you decide to go the PHEV route don't trust anything the specs or the salesman tells you.

knipex wrote: »

60kwh batteries would require a 33amp power supply to charge from empty in 8 hours.. As batteries get bigger that will quickly grow to the point that do domestic house would have the capacity to charge their car overnight. Not without a complete overhaul of the grid and the regulations re wiring homes. An that's before we even consider 2 car homes..

If you wake up every morning with 60kWh's available you have 450+km's available to you. The vast vast majority of people don't need that across 2 cars not to mind one car and that can be easily achieved with a standard domestic connection today.

I don't think there is any medium term concern around domestic charging. The push is to larger and larger batteries but it won't be a linear increase for years and years, it will plateau simply because the majority of people don't need it (somewhat akin to different engine sizes). The larger batteries will command a premium price so that will curb peoples enthusiasm for longer range.

Commercial users (salesmen etc) are an exception and they will require better on the road infrastructure. Domestic charging alone won't be enough for them. We are a good few years away from satisfying the salesman market.

knipex wrote: »

Plus we are a long long way from being able to support even 25 to 30% of all cars begin EV..

ESB's own report on the subject doesn't agree with you. Modest investment can support that level as is. There will be pockets where upgrades are required (primarily rural users far away from sub stations causing voltage drops).

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

ESB's own report on the subject doesn't agree with you. Modest investment can support that level as is. There will be pockets where upgrades are required (primarily rural users far away from sub stations causing voltage drops).

The issue knipex is identifying doesn't really relate to the distribution network, but the size of domestic supply-63A. Say the OP goes fully electric, and gets a 60kWh for himself and a 30kWh for his wife. Say he has to go collect a relative from the airport, a 400km journey, while his wife goes to work. Both cars trundle home in the evening with less than 10% charge. Knipex point was that it is not possible to have both fully charged by morning on a standard domestic supply. One car would have to go without charge or go find a public CP. If it was a regular occurrence, perhaps a second connection or upgraded supply would be required.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The issue knipex is identifying doesn't really relate to the distribution network, but the size of domestic supply-63A. Say the OP goes fully electric, and gets a 60kWh for himself and a 30kWh for his wife. Say he has to go collect a relative from the airport, a 400km journey, while his wife goes to work. Both cars trundle home in the evening with less than 10% charge. Knipex point was that it is not possible to have both fully charged by morning on a standard domestic supply. One car would have to go without charge or go find a public CP. If it was a regular occurrence, perhaps a second connection or upgraded supply would be required.

To charge the 60kWh at 6.6kW per hour it would be done at 10 hours.
If you were charging the 30kWh at 3kW it would also be done in 10 hours.
Assuming 32a for the 6.6kW and 16a for the 3kW, that's only 48a. As it's night time there is not likely to be much further demand, so the threshold of 63a would not be met.

Additionally, you are assuming that they both need 100% which they (especially in a 60kWh) may not.

Furthermore, if each car only needed 30kWh (so 100% in the 30kWh and 50% in the 60kWh) you could charge both at 16a overnight. It's not always as black and white as you make out.

Water John

My sparks told me, the domestic supply can be upgraded quite a bit. Must check the actual numbers with him again, but they were 100A+.