The dumbed-down Leaving Cert

Permabear

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somesoldiers

Yes but all the murican companies will thing we are maths and science geniuses and open operations here....heehee

thelad95

There is still a thing called failure, as 344 honours maths students will tell you. They've just redefined what failure is. 30% for a pass is really just as arbitrary a figure as 40%.

tomwaterford

It deos seem a bit pointless that you can get up 70% wrong and still pass an pass

Hector Savage

This generation is a real worry, look at the reactions to the Brexit + Trump result they can't take any kind of frustration.
Taking part medals basically.

Getting a medal for finishing 19th in a race.

Kimbot

They changed how they grade it nothing else so they didnt "Dumb down" the leaving cert its the same standard it was.

Winterlong

tomwaterford wrote: »

It deos seem a bit pointless that you can get up 70% wrong and still pass an pass

Imagine doing your job only 30% right!!

But seriously, I think there is a lot more pressure on Leaving cert kids these days than there was when I did mine. A lot more pressure to do well, to get to 3rd level and to get the course you want.
Any LC students I know (neighbours and nieces) seem to work a lot harder then I did. They seem to have a lot more pressure on them. So good luck to them.

Falthyron

It won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

1: Less failing means higher CAO points requirements for courses. So, those fringe students who would have failed last year or the years before, now face higher points requirements for their CAO course. They probably won't get their first to third options anyway.

2: Its all relative. The ACA FAE are considered to be some of the most brutal exams going and yet 90% passed them last year. When you compare to 2014 where barely 50% passed, it becomes obvious that there are other factors in play for particular reasons.

3: You speak of the need to taste failure or at least be threatened by it and complain that they won't have that chance at Leaving Cert level? The students who would have failed previous (more difficult) Leaving Certs may very well experience that failure in University. So many students at University lack initiative, drive, and understanding when it comes to Third Level education. Many drop out feeling lost or confused as to what is expected of them. If the Leaving Cert wants to continue to spoon feed students it won't help their academic learning at University level, many of them will fail regardless.

This brings me back to the point of relativity. Whether they fail at the Leaving Cert or not, failure will eventually catch up with them. The main problem we have in this country is we don't teach students that failure is central to learning. Stick that on the Leaving Cert and we might start seeing educated citizens.

ohnonotgmail

So how has the exam been dumbed down? All they have changed are the grades that get CAO points. this thread is just a load of "It were much more difficult in my day" nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

Permabear

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Kimbot

Permabear wrote: »

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The exams have not been changed, only the way they grades count towards the CAO. Therefore the test has not been dumbed down if its the same as it always has been.

ohnonotgmail

Permabear wrote: »

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It was the same in my day and that was 30 years ago. Only your best 6 subjects counted towards points.

silverharp

the maths syllabus itself is dumbed down, a paper from the 80's would trigger a lot of students today. Students could then end up in maths heavy courses in University and fail because they overestimated their abilty

KungPao

Hector Savage wrote: »

This generation is a real worry, look at the reactions to the Brexit + Trump result they can't take any kind of frustration.
Taking part medals basically.

Getting a medal for finishing 19th in a race.

If you ain't first, you're last.

Ficheall

silverharp wrote: »

the maths syllabus itself is dumbed down, a paper from the 80's would trigger a lot of students today. Students could then end up in maths heavy courses in University and fail because they overestimated their abilty

Except this displeases the university's clients, so it has now become impossible to fail mathematics at university.

The_Valeyard

I still think getting points for failing an exam is just wrong.

Permabear

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Kimbot

Permabear wrote: »

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The exam is the exact same as it was last year. The only difference now is how the results count towards your CAO.

scoey

Don't see what the problem with 30 points for 30% on an honours paper or whatever is. Or even 20 for 20%.

It's easier to get 100% on an ordinary level exam than 30% on a higher level one.

Do they still have foundation level? Does that get points?

namloc1980

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It was the same in my day and that was 30 years ago. Only your best 6 subjects counted towards points.

30 years ago you would have got 0 points for getting 30-39% in the exams. Today you can get 222 points.

Permabear

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ohnonotgmail

namloc1980 wrote: »

30 years ago you would have got 0 points for getting 30-39% in the exams. Today you can get 222 points.

and 222 points will get you what, exactly? a level 6 course in an IT?

Kimbot

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and 222 points will get you what, exactly? a level 6 course in an IT?

Nah sure your a shoe in to be a Dr. then.

Redhighking

Permabear wrote: »

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This appears just to be a change in how the exams are graded how would this imply the Leaving Cert is being dumbed down? Have the syllabuses been changed since 2016?

Turtwig

The entire leaving certificate has been in the crapper for a long time now. Project maths was a nice idea to shift focus to understanding rather than rote until they botched the execution so terribly. Unfortunately I don't really see any resolution in the near future as teachers are somewhat of a protected species. Many of the STEM ones weren't fit for purpose. A transition to conceptual understanding would only exacerbate this problem. The problem is even worse when you consider some of today's exam result students will in a decade's time be teaching the stuff they never properly understood in the first place and the cycle will go on.

_Kaiser_

Hector Savage wrote: »

This generation is a real worry, look at the reactions to the Brexit + Trump result they can't take any kind of frustration.
Taking part medals basically.

Getting a medal for finishing 19th in a race.

This sums it up really and is reflected in reports from employers that many of the younger generation have an unrealistic sense of entitlement and inability to accept failure or criticism in the workplace.

As for those arguing that the exams haven't changed, just the grading - even if that was true (and posts above suggest it isn't), by making it easier to get a passing mark by lowering the threshold, it's the same result.

Ultimately it won't do the marginal student any favours when they face not only a completely different learning environment in college but also a far higher passing level and in the long run it won't help the country either when our education system as a whole is further devalued.

Perhaps it would be better if they actually failed and repeated. As well as giving them a better chance later, it's also a valuable life lesson

BillyBobBS

Everyone's a winner society. Its like the kids when they do these running races or football tournaments etc.. where they finish last and still get a medal.

Permabear

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Redhighking

The IT reported that just 2.1% of students failed Higher Level Maths - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-2017-dramatic-fall-off-in-failure-rates-across-key-subjects-1.3187767

Taking into account you get 3/4 out 10 in the marking scheme for attempting and making one right step in a question - no wonder so little failed under new marking scheme.

lazybones32

Everyone's a winner!

I got 50 pts when i first did my L.C. I went into a few exams stoned. Didn't care. The only college course open to me was some fish farming thing in Galway.

Turtwig

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Everyone's a winner society. Its like the kids when they do these running races or football tournaments etc.. where they finish last and still get a medal.

Pretty much this.

Society adorns "success". Most parents want their children to be winners and great at everything. Social media amplifies this effect. The virtues of experiencing failure and handling, it are completely ignored. Somewhat ironic too because social media achievement boasting is essentially one exponentially large self replicating loop of "survivorship bias".

_Dara_

jonnycivic wrote: »

They changed how they grade it nothing else so they didnt "Dumb down" the leaving cert its the same standard it was.

I did my LC in 2001. I had a booklet with the Honours Maths papers stretching back to the late 80s. The papers from the the late 80s to around the early 90s were much, much harder than the ones that came in the years before my LC (say 1999 onwards). It was much less obvious what was wanted from the student in the early exam papers. Much more problem solving was required. I saw an Honours LC maths paper a few years ago, maybe 2013 and this paper was much easier than my 2001 Honours Maths paper. So another level of dumbing down has been reached.

I'm afraid dumbing down is very much happening. And it's doing students no favours. My Honours Maths really stood to me in college. I can't say that would happen now.

Wanderer78

Dreadful system, truly is a one size fits all, and does a dreadful job, even exasperates complex problems such as mental health issues, complex learning disabilities, complex behavioural problems etc etc. As a psychologist who has worked within our educational system for many years told me, our schools are educational factories. I class our system as an example of a 'hyper-competitive' system, and if you 're not of that psychological profile, you may struggle.

Education is not a competition, it's an extremely important stage in one's life. A large proportion of the syllabus should be dumped and replaced with far more important life skills training. Homework should be dumped to. I could go and on, but it's unlikely any of it will change soon.

I wish those receiving their results today the best, and don't become disheartened if your goals were not achieved this time around, there's always other options in life, and remember, our educational system does fail some very badly at times. Best of luck

I honestly don't understand the media/ its adult readership's preoccupation with the leaving cert. It isn't particularly healthy.

The use of bell-curves by the State Examinations Commission diminishes the fears of grade inflation, which by the way, isn't simply proven by observing slight increases in the numbers of individuals passing an exam.

Anyone who knows a leaving cert student knows that there is an ever-increasing compendium of apps, and web resources, and grade-seeking strategies available to students, and I am not surprised that students are performing better than in previous years as a direct result of the increased resources.

But going back to the bell-curve, you're still only giving an A1 (or whatever they call it now) to the top 8-12% of students in subjects like Maths and English, so I dont see a real problem.

Maybe that figure was 4-5% in previous years, I dont know. Why does it matter? The only purpose that debate serves seems to be to assuage the egos of those who missed the top grades back then. The leaving cert isn't designed to be an intergenerational comparator of cognitive intelligence.

The whole point is to filter students into different percentiles in terms of academic attainment. Whether we give the best grade to the top 5% or the top 10% of students probably doesn't matter very much. Those students will still be well placed to commence further study in that particular field.

Again, I must repeat i find the media hand-wringing/ unhealthy preoccupation with the leaving cert to be entirely puzzling.

Permabear

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_Kaiser_

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Dreadful system, truly is a one size fits all, and does a dreadful job, even exasperates complex problems such as mental health issues, complex learning disabilities, complex behavioural problems etc etc. As a psychologist who has worked within our educational system for many years told me, our schools are educational factories. I class our system as an example of a 'hyper-competitive' system, and if you 're not of that psychological profile, you may struggle.

Education is not a competition, it's an extremely important stage in one's life. A large proportion of the syllabus should be dumped and replaced with far more important life skills training. Homework should be dumped to. I could go and on, but it's unlikely any of it will change soon.

I wish those receiving their results today the best, and don't become disheartened if your goals were not achieved this time around, there's always other options in life, and remember, our educational system does fail some very badly at times. Best of luck

To be fair, I can see the "emotional" value in this post and on that front it certainly has merit.

But the real world is a competitive and often harsh place and shielding or making excuses for people who don't make the grade - or in this case, lowering the grade so they can - is not doing them any favours in the long run.

And while I agree that there are indeed those who struggle because of learning difficulties, at the same time I wonder is this explanation being reached for too quickly these days.

I'd rather see more people attempt higher level maths than drop down to ordinary for fear of failure. Isn't that more positive for the education system? Students attempting to learn more. Focusing on the points outcome rather than the education outcome is silly.

Permabear

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Wanderer78

_Kaiser_ wrote:

But the real world is a competitive and often harsh place and shielding or making excuses for people who don't make the grade - or in this case, lowering the grade so they can - is not doing them any favours in the long run.

There's a difference between competitiveness and hyper-competitiveness. Hyper-competitiveness creates and encourages aggressive behavioural traits which are actually highly destructive for society as a whole, I truly do believe our educational system is an example of such a system. Many kids are actually unhappy in our educational system, why so, and why do we continue with it? Many kids are leaving our educational system lacking in critical life skills, who's fault is this and why are we continually allowing this?

silverharp

Turtwig wrote: »

Pretty much this.

Society adorns "success". Most parents want their children to be winners and great at everything. Social media amplifies this effect. The virtues of experiencing failure and handling, it are completely ignored. Somewhat ironic too because social media achievement boasting is essentially one exponentially large self replicating loop of "survivorship bias".

I mentioned it above but as a parent it would terrify me if my kids were under taught in school and under examined only to fall flat on their face in University. Also points inflation is just the same as standing up at a soccer match you have the same view as if everyone stayed seated.

BillyBobBS

Our education system is a complete mess and tbh i think it is in part hugely responsible for the mess in our health care system.

languagenerd

I think the idea of making 30% count as a pass at HL is because most universities and ITs have basic entry requirements - something like "a pass at OL in a minimum of 5 subjects including a language and maths".

This is separate to points: you could get 350 and still not get offered a place on a course with a 325 minimum, because you failed HL maths or French (even if the course had nothing to do with that subject). If 40% at Ordinary Level is enough to tick that box, why shouldn't 35% at Higher Level, which is much harder to get?

Should a 30-39% mark at HL be worth points in itself though? I'm not sure I agree with that. Certainly not a number like 37 points anyway. But I do think it's ok to accept it in situations where 40% at OL would be sufficient.

Permabear

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Redhighking

Permabear wrote: »

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I appreciate your Driving Test analogy and I would agree that such a change would make the test easier with the reduced penalty for mounting the curb.

Under the revised LC points system students will be receiving points for results that previously would have resulted in zero points but nevertheless they are still scoring lowly in the exam (30-39%), they are not actually performing any better due to a suggested dumbed down LC. They are just being awarded points where historically none would have been awarded.

As mentioned by 'A Tyrant Named Miltiades!' above, the percentage of higher grades been scored by students is still relatively consistent with previous years. If the leaving cert is being dumbed as suggested why isnt this being translated into more students achieving higher grades.

The changing of the points system will grant lower scoring students more points this year but it is been reported that this will just translate in lower points requiring courses in the CAO increasing by 10 to 15 points - effectively removing this points advantage.

namloc1980

Permabear wrote: »

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It's like a participation medal. Poor message for young people.

Wanderer78

BillyBobBS wrote: »

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both problems are actually complexly interlinked

Permabear wrote: »

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why have we a points system at all? again, education isnt a competition! its truly an extremely important part of the development of an individual, do a bad job of that, and you ll probably have much bigger problems down the road.

heres an example of what happens when you fail to address issues, particularly complex issues in kids, watch very closely now......

jem

I'm parent who's second child has just received his leaving cert and did extremely well (got well more points than he needed ( we think)) . Therefore it is a long time since I sat the leaving cert (1986) I think the pressure on kids is far higher than in my day.
Also the idea that even if you get enough points for a course but fail one (maths) then you fail you leaving is IMHo mad. and has caused many to take pass papers getting A1 or O1 as it's called now, I think, where they would have been well able for honors but afraid to take the chance
The fact that in uni if you fail a subject you can repeat a few months later makes sense but with the leaving you have to wait a whole year makes no sense.
many kids freeze on the day and don't do their best at all makes it very hard on all kids.
Personally I would split the leaving into two, end of 5th year and 6th year . with the 6th year one being done at easter with the chance to repeat exam in June.
Or allow the extra maths exam that UL has for science courses to be available for all courses.

Permabear

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Kimbot

Permabear wrote: »

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Then could you not say that intelligence amongst the nation has improved in those years?

Redhighking

Permabear wrote: »

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The increase in As an Bs has actually been reported as a result of the dramatic overhaul of the LC marking schemes across all subjects, I will try to find this source. Still not seeing how your connection between the new points system dumbing down the 2017 LC.

Again not too sure how Trinity awarding more 1.1s in recent times is relevant to the LC now being dumbed down. I would imagine there is a correlation between to increased awarding of 1.1s with Trinity having dropped out of the top 50 global Universities.

Permabear

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