Being legally able to commit murder in zone of death?

Really Interested

GM228 wrote: »

For anyone interested here is Brian Kalt's original paper on the subject, the The Perfect Crime from 2005.

It does not seem to be well documented but his 2008 follow up paper Tabloid Constitutionalism: How a Bill Doesn't Become a Law is more interesting as it further deals with the issue and the Michael Belderrain case which dealt with the theory.

I apologies for the long quote but it's well worth the read.



I'll note an important point Kalt states:-



So, a further development in the Michael Belderrain case came after the above paper was released and in 2009 he went to jail for 4 years which was upheld by the US Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit.

https://www.ravellaw.com/opinions/90ca48ae7070023ccfa9980810a0882e?query=Michael%20Belderrain

Brian proves the old adage there are those who teach and those who do.

seamus

GM228 wrote: »

Whilst not as dramatic, due to a "legal loophole" you can't be prosecuted for a number of parking offences in the Phoenix Park such as parking on double yellow lines or parking within 5 metres of a junction etc (the more serious charge of dangerous parking could apply though).

It's not really a loophole to be fair. The Phoenix Park is legally private property under the ownership of the OPW.

That means that only a subset of the rules of the road apply in the park - any rules that apply to a "public place", apply in the park. This includes things like the obligation to be insured, taxed, etc.
Other rules (such as parking rules) do not apply in the park, in exactly the same way that they don't apply in private housing estates.

One difference in the Phoenix Park is that the OPW is entitled to create and prosecute bye-laws of their own in terms of traffic control. So while the Gardai may not enforce parking rules, the Park Rangers can, and can bring you to court. That's a power that a private housing estate doesn't have.

Victor

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1925/act/31/enacted/en/html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1926/sro/6/made/en/print
http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkbyelaws/

seamus wrote: »

Other rules (such as parking rules) do not apply in the park, in exactly the same way that they don't apply in private housing estates.

Certain things are covered, e.g. speed limit. They can also insist you leave and never come back.

One difference in the Phoenix Park is that the OPW is entitled to create and prosecute bye-laws of their own in terms of traffic control. So while the Gardai may not enforce parking rules, the Park Rangers can, and can bring you to court.

I don't know about OPW properties, but many modern acts, bye-laws, etc. enable gardaí to prosecute under the bye-laws, as if they were a park constable, authorised officer, etc.

GM228

seamus wrote: »

It's not really a loophole to be fair. The Phoenix Park is legally private property under the ownership of the OPW.

That means that only a subset of the rules of the road apply in the park - any rules that apply to a "public place", apply in the park. This includes things like the obligation to be insured, taxed, etc.

Other rules (such as parking rules) do not apply in the park, in exactly the same way that they don't apply in private housing estates.

Spot on, perhaps not a loophole in the strictest sense - however the Phoenix Park is unique in that yes it's a public place, however it isn't private property, it's public property owned by the state with a roadway system. The key is that the roads are maintained by the OPW as opposed to a roads authority which is the qualifying condition required for many rules of the road which apply to "public roads", hence the loophole as I call it.

seamus wrote: »

IOne difference in the Phoenix Park is that the OPW is entitled to create and prosecute bye-laws of their own in terms of traffic control. So while the Gardai may not enforce parking rules, the Park Rangers can, and can bring you to court. That's a power that a private housing estate doesn't have.

Indeed they are, but they have only set a no parking rule on the grass and a 50 km/h speed limit which can't be enforced.

Victor wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1925/act/31/enacted/en/html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1926/sro/6/made/en/print
http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkbyelaws/

Certain things are covered, e.g. speed limit. They can also insist you leave and never come back.

How do they enforce the speed limit? Legally they can't - they don't have the power to and neither can the Gardaí.

Victor wrote: »

I don't know about OPW properties, but many modern acts, bye-laws, etc. enable gardaí to prosecute under the bye-laws, as if they were a park constable, authorised officer, etc.

The Gardaí have no powers to prosecute under the Phoenix Park Act, they can perform their duties in the park and prosecute under other acts which may be applicable to public places such as certain road traffic, public order etc matters.

Victor

GM228 wrote: »

Spot on, perhaps not a loophole in the strictest sense - however the Phoenix Park is unique in that yes it's a public place, however it isn't private property, it's public property owned by the state with a roadway system.

It is private property, owned by the state.

GM228

Victor wrote: »

It is private property, owned by the state.

No, private property is property owned by a person (natural or legal), not the state.

State owned property is owned by, well, the state - that being the people, it is owned collectively by the population of the state and therefore public property.