Tenant not keeping house clean

DrPhilG

Have a tenant in my old house for a few years. Did an inspection this morning to make sure the place was intact.

It was fine, no damage done or anything broken etc. But the house was very dirty. He's a single guy living alone, and it's just a bit manky.

Toilet stained and dirty, shower tray grubby. Cobwebs thick in the corners of the ceiling and that kind of thing.

Do I have the right to complain about this? Obviously if the house was falling into disrepair I would pull him up on it but does the standard tenancy agreement give any obligation to keep the house clean and tidy?

Of course if he moved out and left it in that state I would get someone in and dock his deposit for the cleaning cost. But can I give him a warning for the dirt of the house now, or is that likely to get ME in bother with the PRTB rather than him?

Aside from that he's a decent tenant and I have no hassle with him.

Michael D Not Higgins

Is there anything in the lease about keeping the place clean? There's nothing in the RTA that obligates the tenant to keep the place clean to any particular standard so it would revert to what's in the lease. Any warning you might give must include a reference to an obligation otherwise you're moving the goalposts. If the lease doesn't have anything in it for cleaning then you might suggest to him that better care of the place is needed to maintain it and prevent pests (if for example the kitchen is dirty with food).

Lead

Could you tell him you werent happy with the place and ask him to arrange for a cleaner to give it a total clean at his cost? I'm not sure the ins and outs.

noodler

I am pretty sure the costs of a clean between tenancies is on the LL.

Unless there is dirt, stains etc which fall outside of the everyday.

testicles

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Outkast_IRE

Bring it up with the tenant and increase the frequency of inspections. A few years is far too long between inspections for your own sake especially.

I would approach it with the tenant in a calm way such as you would hate to have to withold some of the deposit due to a "Deep" clean being required at the end of the tenancy. Not a threat, but a helpful hint for him to stay on top of it.

rossmores

what planet do u live on or is this a wind up
If a tenant doesn't keep their place its none of ur damn business tenants have rights
and don't think you gouge his deposit for cleaning because in this country its our last months rent end of.
And one day threshold will finish u and ur kind off
Renters in Ireland are different.....

frag420

Jaysus...it only took six posts before a Ranty McRantface dropped in spouting about types etc...

CaoimheSquee

As a renter I would be embarrassed to have an inspection with landlord having the house in that sort of state! Myself and my partner have long commutes and work long hours so we get a cleaner in every so often if we need to keep on top of things.
I would absolutely expect to get a bollocking from landlord or an agent if the place wasn't clean, but definitely give the lad a chance to make it right.

Paulw

rossmores wrote: »

and don't think you gouge his deposit for cleaning because in this country its our last months rent end of.
And one day threshold will finish u and ur kind off

Your deposit is not your last month's rent. Cleaning costs can be taken from the deposit if the place is not left in a similar state to what it was received in.

Threshold are an advice agency, nothing more. Even then, their advice can be questionable.

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seamus

DrPhilG wrote: »

Do I have the right to complain about this? Obviously if the house was falling into disrepair I would pull him up on it but does the standard tenancy agreement give any obligation to keep the house clean and tidy?

No.

Like you say, disrepair is one thing. Damage is another.

If he was leaving plates of food around for roaches and ants to get into, then you have a decent case.

But dust, grime and cobwebs? Nah. You're the landlord, not his mother. It's not your place to dictate how he lives. Why do you care if the place is clean & tidy? You don't have to live in it.

SteelyDanJalapeno

I'd be telling you where to go

faceman

seamus wrote: »

No.

Like you say, disrepair is one thing. Damage is another.

If he was leaving plates of food around for roaches and ants to get into, then you have a decent case.

But dust, grime and cobwebs? Nah. You're the landlord, not his mother. It's not your place to dictate how he lives. Why do you care if the place is clean & tidy? You don't have to live in it.

This pretty much sums it up.

noodler

Paulw wrote: »

Your deposit is not your last month's rent. Cleaning costs can be taken from the deposit if the place is not left in a similar state to what it was received in.

Threshold are an advice agency, nothing more. Even then, their advice can be questionable.

Cleaning costs can not be taken from the deposit.

This is often a very convenient way for a LL or agency to avoid getting a place ready for viewing condition.

It is perfectly understandable that a place can be left perfectly clean but the LL or agency want a cleaner in regardless and the Tenant does not have to pay.

I once took two days of to give a property a God clean before a hardback and the agent ran her finger across a top cupboard, found a bit of dust and said she'd have to get a cleaner in from the deposit.


Needless to say a row ensured. Id advise any tenant not be fooled in such a situation.

sbsquarepants

rossmores wrote: »

what planet do u live on or is this a wind up
If a tenant doesn't keep their place its none of ur damn business tenants have rights
and don't think you gouge his deposit for cleaning because in this country its our last months rent end of.
And one day threshold will finish u and ur kind off
Renters in Ireland are different.....

Jaysus what is this country coming to - This whole culture of entitlement is getting out of control but demanding the right to live like a fúcking pig in someone elses house, are you actually serious!

If you hired out a car, or a suit or anything else for that matter - you are FULLY expected to take care of it and give it back in the same condition you got it in. If you don't they WILL charge you for putting it back in that condition - and rightly so.

dudara

People have varying standards of cleanliness. My skirting boards can easily go a few weeks without dusting, whereas other people I know would have them spotless. But is my house unclean or unhygenic - no way.

As long as it's not squalid, damaging the house or likely to result in infestation, I don't believe you have grounds to say anything. The house has to be handed back in the same condition as received, with allowance for wear and tear of course.

Nothing at all to stop you mentioning it to him that you'd like to see it kept a bit cleaner.

Talk from either side of enforceable rights and obligations is way over the top.

Anything above normal wear and tear is deductible from deposit. Anything that can be put in order with a good clean is probably not reasonably covered here.

Can't we all just get along!

Mycroft H

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Jaysus what is this country coming to - This whole culture of entitlement is getting out of control but demanding the right to live like a fúcking pig in someone elses house, are you actually serious!

If you hired out a car, or a suit or anything else for that matter - you are FULLY expected to take care of it and give it back in the same condition you got it in. If you don't they WILL charge you for putting it back in that condition - and rightly so.

But this is different. It's the tenents house for the lease. Once it's handed back as it was the first day minus wear and tear, well, there's not much to do.

I don't really agree with it, but that's the way it is.

sbsquarepants

Ah yea, I agree - once it's handed back in the condition it was received then there's no harm done.
My problem is with the attitude that I can leave the place in a state but don't you dare touch my deposit to clean up after me - that's just entitled bullshít and nothing else.

DrPhilG

To those who have offered helpful suggestions, thanks a million.

To those who have gone bananas and painted me as some kind of Hitler, don't be silly. You have no idea of the circumstances or what I am like as a landlord.

I'm not just talking about clutter and dust.

I'm talking about grime and filth built up so heavily on the toilet that it may end up stained beyond cleaning.

I've seen toilets in abandoned houses and homes of older people that are so jammed up with dirt and limescale that they would need a hammer and chisel to clean up and I'm sorry but I'm not about to do that.

I don't like chasing the tenant for anything. If anything I'm too soft. Others have said I should be inspecting more often but I don't like to intrude. I haven't raised the rent in 3 years. I have often accommodated late rent by 2 or 3 weeks without any fuss. I recently took a trailer load of rubbish to the dump for the tenant because he had let it build up and the neighbours complained. In short, I am a fecking dream landlord!

All I ask is that the property is kept in a reasonable condition. If they want to live in filth that's fine. But if that filth has the potential to leave permanent damage above normal wear and tear then I'm entitled to expect that that doesn't happen.

The tenancy agreement does state that the internal of the property must be kept in a "good and clean condition". I have sent a polite message asking if he could clean the place up a bit based on the fact that if the toilet, shower etc end up stained beyond repair then it might lead to a bill for him on departure.

I expect to have to clean a property after a tenant leaves. Even if they clean up, they are unlikely to have it as clean as a new tenant will expect. In the same way I expect to have to give it a lick of paint etc.

DrPhilG

Mycroft H wrote: »

Once it's handed back as it was the first day minus wear and tear, well, there's not much to do.

I agree and have no issue with that. The problem is that I fear the level of filth already built up on the toilet in particular will end up incapable of being handed back anywhere near the condition it was handed over.

seamus wrote: »

It's not your place to dictate how he lives. Why do you care if the place is clean & tidy? You don't have to live in it.

See above. I don't care how he lives. I care if he leaves the place so dirty that it can't be properly cleaned and we end up with a dispute over the cost of a new loo!

rossmores wrote: »

And one day threshold will finish u and ur kind off
Renters in Ireland are different.....

I'm curious, what is "my kind" exactly?

seamus

There's functionally nothing you can do to a toilet dirt-wise that a good deep clean won't fix. Most of the tarnish-like stains are down to hard water.

If your inspection reveals damage or stains that you believe would require substantial effort beyond a deep clean, then you are well within your rights to point these out to the tenant.

It would be reasonably expected that a landlord would give a property a top-to-bottom deep clean between lettings, so any complaint on your behalf should be limited to issues which wouldn't be addressed by such a cleaning.

Lux23

Maybe there is no legal requirement to clean but surely letting dirt build up can lead to more wear and tear than necessary. Maybe just send him an email or text saying that the place seemed relatively well kept but that you would like him to keep the place cleaner and that you will have an inspection in another couple of months? It is for his own good too!

Fol20

rossmores wrote: »

what planet do u live on or is this a wind up
If a tenant doesn't keep their place its none of ur damn business tenants have rights
and don't think you gouge his deposit for cleaning because in this country its our last months rent end of.
And one day threshold will finish u and ur kind off
Renters in Ireland are different.....

You could nearly revert and ask you is this a wind up..
How would you like it if something you spent a lot of money on was being dirtied or wrecked by someone else. Yes they do have right, but im sure if the position was switched you would look out for your best interested and that is to keep the place relatively clean. The cleanliness should be given back to me in the same state i gave it in. I might be one of those hitler ll that "gouge" people of their money if they god forbid damage something that doesnt belong to them.

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Mrs OBumble

Lux23 wrote: »

It is for his own good too!

How's it for his own good?

I could see it if there was a health issue. But a few stains on the toilet - get out of here, that's not a health issue.

DrPhilG

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How's it for his own good?

I could see it if there was a health issue. But a few stains on the toilet - get out of here, that's not a health issue.

If (and it's a big if) the toilet ends up so badly coated in dirt, limescale, shyte or whatever that it requires more than the standard deep clean that any landlord should be giving it, then the cost of a professional industrial cleaner should not be coming from my pocket.

It should be coming from his, which means that prevention is better than cure, hence "for his own good".

myshirt

Did you check the oven?

DrPhilG

myshirt wrote: »

Did you check the oven?

*shudder

I didn't, but I suspect he doesn't cook much so hopefully it's fine.

I'll check next time.

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TheChizler

....... wrote: »

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I don't think this was mentioned anywhere. The rent hasn't been raised in 3 years, maybe you read that?

It would be surprising if a place had not deteriorated in that timeframe if it was not being maintained.

They're talking about physical dirt and grime that can be cleaned, not the place looking shabby.

DrPhilG

Yeah I have inspected twice now in just under 3 years. I realise it should be more often but this was my first house as a landlord and only second tenancy so I'm learning from my mistakes.

This guy isn't a bad sort. A bit scatter brained but a decent guy and I've no problem accommodating him, probably more than others would do as I'm sure there are far worse tenants out there. I'm of the belief that you treat others as you would like to be treated.

Respect has to go both ways though.

the_syco

DrPhilG wrote: »

Toilet stained and dirty, shower tray grubby. Cobwebs thick in the corners of the ceiling and that kind of thing.

End his lease, and maybe the next tenant will stop paying rent after two months, and smoke inside, dropping butts everywhere on the floors.

TBH, you don't seem to realise how good you have it now.

pilly

DrPhilG wrote: »

Yeah I have inspected twice now in just under 3 years. I realise it should be more often but this was my first time as a landlord and I'm learning from my mistakes.

This guy isn't a bad sort. A bit scatter brained but a decent guy and I've no problem accommodating him, probably more than others would do as I'm sure there are far worse tenants out there. I'm of the belief that you treat others as you would like to be treated.

Respect has to go both ways though.

Take it from a fellow LL, you could get a lot worse.

And don't take this the wrong way but you do seem to be looking down at him a bit. You started by saying he was a decent tenant and the place was just a bit dirty and you're saying worse and worse about him as the thread goes on.

As others have mentioned there's a few things here:

1. I've never seen a modern toilet that can not be cleaned. Unless it's cracked or damaged it will not need replacing.

2. Cobwebs? Most men I know have no idea how to tackle cobwebs and certainly won't look after them. Besides, again, cause no permanent damage.

3. In 3 years it doesn't sound like you've had the place painted. You're getting off lightly there, I have to have my property painted at least every 2 years.

It's no harm mentioning it to him but also look on the good side of things, there are tenants out there who are over-holding for 18 months or more and not paying any rent.

DrPhilG

the_syco wrote: »

End his lease, and maybe the next tenant will stop paying rent after two months, and smoke inside, dropping butts everywhere on the floors.

TBH, you don't seem to realise how good you have it now.

Dead God, did you even read the rest of the thread beyond the first post?

DrPhilG

pilly wrote: »

Take it from a fellow LL, you could get a lot worse.

And don't take this the wrong way but you do seem to be looking down at him a bit. You started by saying he was a decent tenant and the place was just a bit dirty and you're saying worse and worse about him as the thread goes on.

As others have mentioned there's a few things here:

1. I've never seen a modern toilet that can not be cleaned. Unless it's cracked or damaged it will not need replacing.

2. Cobwebs? Most men I know have no idea how to tackle cobwebs and certainly won't look after them. Besides, again, cause no permanent damage.

3. In 3 years it doesn't sound like you've had the place painted. You're getting off lightly there, I have to have my property painted at least every 2 years.

It's no harm mentioning it to him but also look on the good side of things, there are tenants out there who are over-holding for 18 months or more and not paying any rent.

I don't mean to be sore on the guy, I just had to explain in a bit more detail about the dirt I'm concerned about because people thought I was losing my mind over a little dust. Trust me I know how much worse it can be. The previous dirty git left a shed full of rubbish that I needed a skip to clear, and a fireplace full of half burned dirty nappies.

1 - I was recently tasked with helping to clean up a house that an elderly guy had moved out of. The toilet probably hadn't been cleaned in 15 years and the buildup of scum, limescale and dirt was impossible. I hired a professional cleaner and they barely made a dent. I don't think this one is anywhere near as bad but it's better to spend 5 minutes cleaning it now than a few hours later.

2 - I'm sorry I mentioned the cobwebs. It adds to the shabby look of the place but agree it isn't relevant in the bigger picture which is why I went into more detail on the loo.

3 - I have had the full exterior and walls painted last year. The inside walls were painted a week before he moved in and are still looking well but I will be planning a paint job in the next year.

I totally agree that there are worse out there, which is why I've tried to be lenient with him over late rent etc and the recent issue with a buildup of rubbish outside that the neighbours complained were attracting rats.

I've had a polite word, hopefully that's all it takes.

pilly

DrPhilG wrote: »

I don't mean to be sore on the guy, I just had to explain in a bit more detail about the dirt I'm concerned about because people thought I was losing my mind over a little dust. Trust me I know how much worse it can be. The previous dirty git left a shed full of rubbish that I needed a skip to clear, and a fireplace full of half burned dirty nappies.

1 - I was recently tasked with helping to clean up a house that an elderly guy had moved out of. The toilet probably hadn't been cleaned in 15 years and the buildup of scum, limescale and dirt was impossible. I hired a professional cleaner and they barely made a dent. I don't think this one is anywhere near as bad but it's better to spend 5 minutes cleaning it now than a few hours later.

2 - I'm sorry I mentioned the cobwebs. It adds to the shabby look of the place but agree it isn't relevant in the bigger picture which is why I went into more detail on the loo.

3 - I have had the full exterior and walls painted. The inside walls were painted a week before he moved in and are still looking well but I will be planning a paint job in the next year.

I totally agree that there are worse out there, which is why I've tried to be lenient with him over late rent etc and the recent issue with a buildup of rubbish outside that the neighbours complained were attracting rats.

I've had a polite word, hopefully that's all it takes.

Yeah, hopefully it does. I think 15 years of build up on a old style toilet is a totally different matter.

I'll be honest if the interior walls still look good then you're doing very well, if you had a family with 3 kids in there they certainly wouldn't be so there's an advantage.

The rubbish I get you on, I honestly don't get what the issue is with tenants and rubbish.

I've had this problem so many times in the past where the tenants just didn't keep the rubbish under control. To tell the truth in the end I decided to pay the bin charges myself and build it into the rent. I think it's just the first thing to be neglected when someone is under pressure. When new people move in I immediately tell them that I'm paying the bin charges and I expect the bins to be left out every single week.

Is there a local bin company or is it a very rural area?

Sam Kade

TiltedBrain wrote: »

I'd be telling you where to go

Then I'd kick you out

DrPhilG

pilly wrote: »

Is there a local bin company or is it a very rural area?

There is a bin company locally. He just never leaves it out.

The previous tenant had resorted to piling it up in the shed and I mean you could barely get in the door of a 12ft by 8ft shed.

Never thought of building it into the rent mind you. Just kinda annoying that I would have to.

freshpopcorn

pilly wrote: »

I immediately tell them that I'm paying the bin charges and I expect the bins to be left out every single week.

Is there a local bin company or is it a very rural area?

I've a relative and there very environmentally friendly and they generate about a fruit and veg bag of rubbish every two weeks. Which we put in out rubbish bin. I think it would be very unfair if there land lord charged the about €400 a year for this!

Dial Hard

Anyone who thinks that a toilet can't be irrevocably dirtied has clearly never dealt with one. It can and does happen.

pilly

freshpopcorn wrote:

I've a relative and there very environmentally friendly and they generate about a fruit and veg bag of rubbish every two weeks. Which we put in out rubbish bin. I think it would be very unfair if there land lord charged the about €400 a year for this!

Maybe but families with kids tend not to be able to do that. I've had 3 previous tenants and not one has managed to leave without leaving rubbish behind.

freshpopcorn

pilly wrote: »

Maybe but families with kids tend not to be able to do that. I've had 3 previous tenants and not one has managed to leave without leaving rubbish behind.

That's a different situation tough!

DrPhilG

Dial Hard wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that a toilet can't be irrevocably dirtied has clearly never dealt with one. It can and does happen.

Damn right.

To be clear, the toilet in this case isn't beyond help. But I'd say it would take a heavy bleach job followed by a few hours of serious elbow grease.

But give it another few years without a clean and we're into serious territory!

pilly

freshpopcorn wrote: »

That's a different situation tough!

No sorry, not tough for me anymore. I do regular checks on my properties now to make sure there's no build up of rubbish. Tenant has no excuse because bin charges are paid.

freshpopcorn

pilly wrote: »

No sorry, not tough for me anymore. I do regular checks on my properties now to make sure there's no build up of rubbish. Tenant has no excuse because bin charges are paid.

That's fine if your tenants are happy!

noodler

I've been harsh at the suggestion of the LL taking money from a landlord to bring a property up to his own subjective level of cleanliness but rubbish in the shed is an absolute travesty and shouldn't be put up with for a multitude of reasons.

Gatling

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Jaysus what is this country coming to - This whole culture of entitlement is getting out of control but demanding the right to live like a fúcking pig in someone elses house, are you actually serious!

It's not entitlement it's rights ,

And as long as they are paying rent it's their house to live in as they choose fit

TheChizler

Gatling wrote: »

It's not entitlement it's rights ,

And as long as they are paying rent it's their house to live in as they choose fit

Within reason. The whole debate is about whether the request is reasonable or not.

Id be ashamed of my life, if our landlord, had to ' have a word' about the state of the house.

Bottle of bleach is less than a euro ffs. No need for a limescaled scummy toilet.