Irish Performance at Worlds?

Testosterscone

The usual assessment that naturally occurs post championships

Thomas Barr (400m hurdles) - DNF - Illness
Brian Gregan (400m) - 19th Overall - Semi Finals
Ciara Mageean (800m) - 34th - Failed to make out of heats
Mark English (800m) - 34th - Failed to make out of heats
Fionnuala McCormack - DNS
Mick Clohisey (Marathon) - 22nd
Paul Pollock (Marathon) - DNS
Sean Hehir (Marathon) - 63rd
Claire McCarthy (Marathon) - 33rd
Alex Wright (20km walk) - DQ
Brendan Boyce (50km walk) - DNS
Robert Heffernan (50km walk) - 8th

Good Championship? Poor? To form?

Overachievers? Underachievers?

Chivito550

No buttering it up. It was utterly dreadful. There was a 6 day period (Days 4-9) where the only Irish action was a Siofra heat. Ireland has never been so invisible at a World Championships.

ger664

While they got no medals I think Mick Clohisey, Claire McCarthy and Rob Heffernan performed well.

IvoryTower

Gregan making semi final was good, good run from mick too

average_runner

ger664 wrote: »

While they got no medals I think Mick Clohisey, Claire McCarthy and Rob Heffernan performed well.

Heffernan always puts a good performance in, enjoy the retirement


Gregan and Clohisey for me were the stand out performance.

English and Barr can be excused.

Mageean had a race to forget about, happens to us all. Hopefully she can learn from it and push on.

walshb

I also think that the fact that RTE did not cover this and that we heard from nobody Irish on it all adds to the poor showing.

pconn062

A pretty dismal championships all round for the Irish. A good result by Heffernan in the walk, plus solid results from McCarthy and Clohissey in the marathon. Gregan had the most to be happy about IMO, and a semi final was a very good performance from him given the insane depth in the 400m. English and Mageann, for whatever reason (injury or otherwise) were flat and underperformed. Barr was unlucky but still think he would have struggled in a semi, and Cleirigh-Buttner got some much needed big championship performance.

Hard to say what it going wrong but all the recent talk about coaching is a good thing and will hopefully kick AI into gear and consider hiring a sprint, walks and middle distance coach.

Good article here from Jeremy Lyons:

http://irishcoachescorner.blogspot.ie/2017/08/we-need-to-accept-we-have-coaching.html?spref=tw

Tombo2001

I think the team itself did ok.

There was one outstanding performance; however since it was from an athlete of exceptionally high quality that has delivered strong performances for such a long period of time, its perhaps not being recognised as such in the national press. There was nobody in Croke Park over the weekend that comes anywhere close to the work and preparation that this man puts in.

After that, Clohissey did well as did Gregan, as mentioned.

As for the others - really Barr was the only one who might have been a final contender and we know what happened there.

Mageean and English were disappointing; Mageean I'd be more worried about as she's had a series of racing setbacks now and it will be difficult to lift herself.

The bigger issue for me is lack of depth in the squad - there seems to be an aspirational thing of 'trying to make the Olympic team' - a lot of athletes who went to Rio didnt push on when they might have. Particularly here I'd mention the 3 steeplechasers from last year; none participated in what was arguably the single best race of the Championships.

Similarly both mens and womens marathon, between them there are 5-6 athletes who ran in Rio that didnt run in London. Why not?

Probably the reality is that these are not professional athletes in the way for example that the Americans are - and they cant dedicate their whole lives to an event two years in a row when there are day jobs going on as well.

Outside of this, we have a number of mid-distance athletes who are now in their late 20s, and with a different career trajectory could have been in finals in London.

And finally that we certainly have potential in for example 4x400m relay, and yet werent there.

average_runner

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think the team itself did ok.

There was one outstanding performance; however since it was from an athlete of exceptionally high quality that has delivered strong performances for such a long period of time, its perhaps not being recognised as such in the national press. There was nobody in Croke Park over the weekend that comes anywhere close to the work and preparation that this man puts in.

After that, Clohissey did well as did Gregan, as mentioned.

As for the others - really Barr was the only one who might have been a final contender and we know what happened there.

Mageean and English were disappointing; Mageean I'd be more worried about as she's had a series of racing setbacks now and it will be difficult to lift herself.

The bigger issue for me is lack of depth in the squad - there seems to be an aspirational thing of 'trying to make the Olympic team' - a lot of athletes who went to Rio didnt push on when they might have. Particularly here I'd mention the 3 steeplechasers from last year; none participated in what was arguably the single best race of the Championships.

Similarly both mens and womens marathon, between them there are 5-6 athletes who ran in Rio that didnt run in London. Why not?

Probably the reality is that these are not professional athletes in the way for example that the Americans are - and they cant dedicate their whole lives to an event two years in a row when there are day jobs going on as well.

Outside of this, we have a number of mid-distance athletes who are now in their late 20s, and with a different career trajectory could have been in finals in London.

And finally that we certainly have potential in for example 4x400m relay, and yet werent there.

I think you make a good point about two years in a row and the day job.
Something that we lack here in Athletics is the money.

Athletics is getting more like soccer, the countries with the most money are getting stronger.

pconn062

average_runner wrote: »

I think you make a good point about two years in a row and the day job.
Something that we lack here in Athletics is the money.

Athletics is getting more like soccer, the countries with the most money are getting stronger.

It's not all about money though, good tweet here from Michael Johnson about the British performance:

https://twitter.com/MJGold/status/897021159702712321

They seem to be going through the same coaching dilemma as we are.

Testosterscone

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The bigger issue for me is lack of depth in the squad - there seems to be an aspirational thing of 'trying to make the Olympic team' - a lot of athletes who went to Rio didnt push on when they might have. Particularly here I'd mention the 3 steeplechasers from last year; none participated in what was arguably the single best race of the Championships.

Similarly both mens and womens marathon, between them there are 5-6 athletes who ran in Rio that didnt run in London. Why not?

Sarah Treacy was injured for most of the season, Kerry Flaherty injured early season and didn't regain fitness in time to hit the qualifying time. Michelle Finn??

Pollock injured, Britton out of form, Lizzie Lee had a baby this year.

Testosterscone

average_runner wrote: »

Something that we lack here in Athletics is the money.

While I agree to an extent I think at the moment even if the money was there wouldn't have huge impact as the money being used at the moment is not being used effectively.

Tombo2001

pconn062 wrote: »

It's not all about money though, good tweet here from Michael Johnson about the British performance:

https://twitter.com/MJGold/status/897021159702712321

They seem to be going through the same coaching dilemma as we are.

I think the reality is that the team didnt do too badly, for what we sent out.

Look at the medals table - who is the comparable to Ireland that really outperformed?

Poland was a standout performer with contenders in many events, but their population is ten times larger.

Norway is the most comparable I would think. But the medals table is all large countries.

The unfortunate thing though is that the wider public thinks no medal = no good.

Chivito - I'm surprised you think the performance was so awful, a few athletes underperformed expectations; a few others outperformed. What was so bad about it?

Tombo2001

Testosterscone wrote: »

Sarah Treacy was injured for most of the season, Kerry Flaherty injured early season and didn't regain fitness in time to hit the qualifying time. Michelle Finn??

Pollock injured, Britton out of form, Lizzie Lee had a baby this year.

Thats all fair and maybe its all coincidence, it just seems that a lot of the team that went to Rio werent involved in London a year later.

Tombo2001

pconn062 wrote: »

A pretty dismal championships all round for the Irish. A good result by Heffernan in the walk, plus solid results from McCarthy and Clohissey in the marathon. Gregan had the most to be happy about IMO, and a semi final was a very good performance from him given the insane depth in the 400m. English and Mageann, for whatever reason (injury or otherwise) were flat and underperformed. Barr was unlucky but still think he would have struggled in a semi, and Cleirigh-Buttner got some much needed big championship performance.

Hard to say what it going wrong but all the recent talk about coaching is a good thing and will hopefully kick AI into gear and consider hiring a sprint, walks and middle distance coach.

Good article here from Jeremy Lyons:

http://irishcoachescorner.blogspot.ie/2017/08/we-need-to-accept-we-have-coaching.html?spref=tw

Well written article however what it fails to look at is the trend over time.

I had a quick look, and as far as I can see, in the inaugural 1983 world champs, we had only 1 performer in the top 16 in any event, and that was Coghlan. And this was the 'golden age' of Irish mid distance runners.

I suspect that the 2007 world champs were the aberattion rather than the norm.

Also, to throw into that mix - Alistair Cragg made a lot of finals; he wasnt a product of the local system in any way.

Similarly, Gillick was in Loughborough.

What arguably has changed is that we arent getting athletes coming through the US collegiate system to represent Ireland in a way that the we once did.
What I'd be interested in is - for a country of comparable size, what or who is best in class.

My suspicion is that if we want to have consistent performers in the top ten, then we we need to specialise in the way Jamaica or Kenya does.

However that probably wont happen - as kids dont take up athletics just to help the country get more medals. They take it up because they enjoy it, and the run the events they want run, or throw or jump, and that means diversity.

A disappointment for me in London is that we had so few female athletes on in track and field. I think this should be looked at in particular.

An additional point - none of the Dublin universities are backing athletics in any meaningful way. None have a track on campus. I think this could make a big difference, in terms of discussing what we COULD do differently.

RayCun

Tombo2001 wrote: »

My suspicion is that if we want to have consistent performers in the top ten, then we we need to specialise in the way Jamaica or Kenya does.

Make everyone take up race walking :pac:

Jamaica and Kenya consistently punch above their weight in athletics, but athletics is the national sport in those countries. The Poles aren't ****ing around with rugby or GAA. The British poured millions into athletics to do well in the Olympics and these championships.

I don't know why people expect a minority sport in a small country to perform much better than we have.

Tombo2001

RayCun wrote: »

Make everyone take up race walking :pac:

Jamaica and Kenya consistently punch above their weight in athletics, but athletics is the national sport in those countries. The Poles aren't ****ing around with rugby or GAA. The British poured millions into athletics to do well in the Olympics and these championships.

I don't know why people expect a minority sport in a small country to perform much better than we have.

I completely agree and I'd say the emphasis should really be on managing expectations, and to celebrate achievements that arent necessarily medals.

As mentioned - the country goes nuts when we qualify for a major soccer tournament - absolutely no discussion about ever winning the thing.

But for example Brian Gregan ran one of the top European times of the year in Santry, didnt even get a mention on the news.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

Make everyone take up race walking :pac:

Jamaica and Kenya consistently punch above their weight in athletics, but athletics is the national sport in those countries. The Poles aren't ****ing around with rugby or GAA. The British poured millions into athletics to do well in the Olympics and these championships.

I don't know why people expect a minority sport in a small country to perform much better than we have.

Athletics is quiet low down in Poland, soccer, basketball are way up the list along with skiing.

average_runner

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I completely agree and I'd say the emphasis should really be on managing expectations, and to celebrate achievements that arent necessarily medals.

As mentioned - the country goes nuts when we qualify for a major soccer tournament - absolutely no discussion about ever winning the thing.

But for example Brian Gregan ran one of the top European times of the year in Santry, didnt even get a mention on the news.

Managing expectations is the right thing to do, considering the facilities we have here.
Most other sports in Ireland have a good organization behind them, backing them, except for the FAI!

YFlyer

Testosterscone wrote: »

Sarah Treacy was injured for most of the season, Kerry Flaherty injured early season and didn't regain fitness in time to hit the qualifying time. Michelle Finn??

Pollock injured, Britton out of form, Lizzie Lee had a baby this year.

Final exams.

Tombo2001

average_runner wrote: »

Managing expectations is the right thing to do, considering the facilities we have here.
Most other sports in Ireland have a good organization behind them, backing them, except for the FAI!

Lets talk about other individual sports
Tennis - when do we ever have anyone play in a Major.
Badminton - we won our first ever European medal recently (bronze in mixed doubles).
Swimming - Very rare for any of our competitors to go beyond the semifinal stage of a major meet.
Rowing/ Sailing - yes we have done well in recent years, but it has nothing like the depth of other sports. On the other hand, these are definitely sports where we have a bit of a natural advantage and should focus.
Cycling......since Kelly and Roche, very few high level performers

Over time, boxing golf and athletics have been the outliers.

I'm not here to knock AI.

average_runner

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Lets talk about other individual sports
Tennis - when do we ever have anyone play in a Major.
Badminton - we won our first ever European medal recently (bronze in mixed doubles).
Swimming - Very rare for any of our competitors to go beyond the semifinal stage of a major meet.
Rowing/ Sailing - yes we have done well in recent years, but it has nothing like the depth of other sports. On the other hand, these are definitely sports where we have a bit of a natural advantage and should focus.
Cycling......since Kelly and Roche, very few high level performers

Over time, boxing golf and athletics have been the outliers.

I'm not here to knock AI.

Tennis we had a guy in the Oz open in 2016
Badminton we had some guy do well in the olympics
Cycling we had Dan martin twice in top ten of the tour and roche twice in top ten of a grand tour also.


I never said other sports were more successful, just said most other sports have good organisations behind them.

Tombo2001

average_runner wrote: »

Tennis we had a guy in the Oz open in 2016
Badminton we had some guy do well in the olympics
Cycling we had Dan martin twice in top ten of the tour and roche twice in top ten of a grand tour also.


I never said other sports were more successful, just said most other sports have good organisations behind them.

Your implication is that athletics doesnt.? maybe I'm wrong.

By the way, the badminton player you mentioned moved to Denmark at age 16. (incidentally, i would personally rate him very highly, he is up there with Robert Heffernan as one of Ireland's most underrated sports people).

Dan Martin as you know is as Irish as Andy Townsend or Jon Walters.

average_runner

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Your implication is that athletics doesnt.? maybe I'm wrong.

By the way, the badminton player you mentioned moved to Denmark at age 16. (incidentally, i would personally rate him very highly, he is up there with Robert Heffernan as one of Ireland's most underrated sports people).

Dan Martin as you know is as Irish as Andy Townsend or Jon Walters.

I don't believe athletics has a good professional organisation behind them. Our athlete's got public transport to events in Rio!!! Lack of funds for facilities, lack of a PR machine, i can go on!

Tombo2001

average_runner wrote: »

I don't believe athletics has a good professional organisation behind them. Our athlete's got public transport to events in Rio!!! Lack of funds for facilities, lack of a PR machine, i can go on!

Well again, what are you comparing it to...who does it better? What does 'good' look like. Because I dont see it in Ireland, and I dont particularly see it overseas either.

There are limited resources and a lot of the people are part-time or volunteers.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

I don't believe athletics has a good professional organisation behind them. Our athlete's got public transport to events in Rio!!! Lack of funds for facilities, lack of a PR machine, i can go on!

Link to this? Sounds like utter nonsense.

Djoucer

Off the ball discussing this at 8.05pm this evening. Ian O'Riordain and Ewan McKenna.

I'm sure there will be room for doping talk.

average_runner

Djoucer wrote: »

Off the ball discussing this at 8.05pm this evening. Ian O'Riordain and Ewan McKenna.

I'm sure there will be room for doping talk.

Its very good.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Link to this? Sounds like utter nonsense.

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rio-2016-olympics/irish-athletes-had-to-catch-public-buses-to-their-events-in-rio-amid-tickets-debacle-36028582.html

average_runner

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Well again, what are you comparing it to...who does it better? What does 'good' look like. Because I dont see it in Ireland, and I dont particularly see it overseas either.

There are limited resources and a lot of the people are part-time or volunteers.

Compare it to rugby and gaa. I mean David gillick said athletes would go off to their hotel room to get their gear and it be too small. Basic things like.

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rio-2016-olympics/irish-athletes-had-to-catch-public-buses-to-their-events-in-rio-amid-tickets-debacle-36028582.html

'Athletes' in that story doesn't mean the people in athletics, it means the people competing at the Olympics, whether they are boxers, swimmers, runners, jumpers, rowers...