Remapping implications

joujoujou

Henry Ford III wrote: »

[...]
Would an average driver appreciate the difference between a 100bhp and a 130bhp engine with better torque and better mpg? I'd say they would. I certainly would know and appreciate the difference.

Only if drove both.

grogi

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Would an average driver appreciate the difference between a 100bhp and a 130bhp engine with better torque and better mpg? I'd say they would. I certainly would know and appreciate the difference.

You would feel the difference after you have the car remapped.

If you buy one, you don't have anything to compare to. N/A 250 PS (~BMW 330) in normal driving feels like a bulk standard 1.4TSI Golf 150 PS. Remap it to 180 PS and it feels like 335... Both Golfs will be BLOODY FAST for anyone getting there from 1.4 Golf of previous generation...

Henry Ford III

Why is it that there's such a reluctance to just do the right thing and be honest in relation to this issue?

Why are people constantly trying to worm their way out of their responsibilities?

I'm genuinely perplexed by it.

gctest50

bazz26 wrote: »

..........

If I wasn't aware of my car being remapped by a former owner then I certainly wouldn't be letting an insurance company bully their way out of liability in that instance just by claiming it's obvious or under circumstantial facts. ............

Simple way out of that is insurance companies look for a cert ( mini-engineers report ) from a main dealer that says the car has not been re-mapped before they provide cover

Saves wasting the courts time

Neilw

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Why is it that there's such a reluctance to just do the right thing and be honest in relation to this issue?

Why are people constantly trying to worm their way out of their responsibilities?

I'm genuinely perplexed by it.

If insurance was reasonable and allowed for modifications people would be more inclined to declare them.

In most other reasonable countries this can be done but our insurance is so draconian and out of date it's near impossible to do without a point blank refusal or policy cancellation.

Henry Ford III

Neilw wrote: »

If insurance was reasonable and allowed for modifications people would be more inclined to declare them.

In most other reasonable countries this can be done but our insurance is so draconian and out of date it's near impossible to do without a point blank refusal or policy cancellation.

I just googled "modified car insurance Ireland". Loads of links seemingly willing to quote.

What's reasonable? Is it what you want to pay or what the going rate is?

p.s. We all know that insuring a standard BMW 535d is possible, but pricey. So why should someone just remap a BMW520d to nearer the same performance levels and expect to pay less? It's unfortunate but it puts them into an entirely different category of risk I reckon.

Caliden

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I just googled "modified car insurance Ireland". Loads of links seemingly willing to quote.

What's reasonable? Is it what you want to pay or what the going rate is?

p.s. We all know that insuring a standard BMW 535d is possible, but pricey. So why should someone just remap a BMW520d to nearer the same performance levels and expect to pay less? It's unfortunate but it puts them into an entirely different category of risk I reckon.

Have you tried getting a quote from any of the links you found?

There are multiple posts on here or even modified car forums from people who are struggling to insure a standard jap import let alone a car with modifications.

Modifications which actually make your car safer when installed properly, i.e. bigger brakes, better suspension, increase your premium.


Have you ever tried insuring a performance/modified car yourself? Even popular cars like golfs are becoming hard to insure as they're involved in more accidents (popular car, more accidents is a given).

Henry Ford III

Caliden wrote: »

Have you tried getting a quote from any of the links you found?

There are multiple posts on here or even modified car forums from people who are struggling to insure a standard jap import let alone a car with modifications.

Modifications which actually make your car safer when installed properly, i.e. bigger brakes, better suspension, increase your premium.


Have you ever tried insuring a performance/modified car yourself? Even popular cars like golfs are becoming hard to insure as they're involved in more accidents (popular car, more accidents is a given).

No because I don't own one. Never have.

Mods. are a complex area. Better brakes and suspension could be viewed as
performance enhancing, or perhaps safety enhancing depending on your viewpoint.

amf78

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Why is it that there's such a reluctance to just do the right thing and be honest in relation to this issue?

Why are people constantly trying to worm their way out of their responsibilities?

I'm genuinely perplexed by it.

You're arguing as if we're discussing about paying 3 euro to watch a movie on iTunes vs finding a torrent. As if there's a way out.
We shall see what the insurer's response will be, but based on the ton of feedback received here, the chances being offered a quote (even an outrageous one) are 0.1%.
What surprises me to no lesser degree is how people can be so complacent about ridiculous predicaments brought on by abuse of power, indifference, incompetence and stupid law making, by simply stating "it's the law" or "well, it is the way it is".
And I'm not just talking about the modified car market.

rex-x

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I just googled "modified car insurance Ireland". Loads of links seemingly willing to quote.

What's reasonable? Is it what you want to pay or what the going rate is?

p.s. We all know that insuring a standard BMW 535d is possible, but pricey. So why should someone just remap a BMW520d to nearer the same performance levels and expect to pay less? It's unfortunate but it puts them into an entirely different category of risk I reckon.

Try and get a quote, on a fictional car from any of them. They won't quote you if it's a performance increase.

Its cheaper for me to insure a 535d than a 520d due to the unique way insurance is calculated..... There are far less of them so they haven't been as blacklisted as the 520 has it seems. You go on and on about price but nobody ever mentioned cost? We are talking about getting a quote at all here

Henry Ford III

amf78 wrote: »

You're arguing as if we're discussing about paying 3 euro to watch a movie on iTunes vs finding a torrent. As if there's a way out.
We shall see what the insurer's response will be, but based on the ton of feedback received here, the chances being offered a quote (even an outrageous one) are 0.1%.
What surprises me to no lesser degree is how people can be so complacent about ridiculous predicaments brought on by abuse of power, indifference, incompetence and stupid law making, by simply stating "it's the law" or "well, it is the way it is".
And I'm not just talking about the modified car market.

The quantum of premiums or even availability of cover is a side issue I think. The more fundamental one is that you've a legal obligation to do the right thing.

It's fatally flawed to argue that "I couldn't/wouldn't insure my car as mapped so I'll plough ahead anyhow and hope for the best" imho.

The last part of your post is a moral one - and isn't relevant here.

Henry Ford III

rex-x wrote: »

Try and get a quote, on a fictional car from any of them. They won't quote you if it's a performance increase.

Its cheaper for me to insure a 535d than a 520d due to the unique way insurance is calculated..... There are far less of them so they haven't been as blacklisted as the 520 has it seems. You go on and on about price but nobody ever mentioned cost? We are talking about getting a quote at all here

That sounds like a convincing argument in favour of buying a 535d then. Why don't you buy one?

rex-x

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That sounds like a convincing argument in favour of buying a 535d then. Why don't you buy one?

Because my current car is powered by the correct fuel and more powerful

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Why is it that there's such a reluctance to just do the right thing and be honest in relation to this issue?

Why are people constantly trying to worm their way out of their responsibilities?

I'm genuinely perplexed by it.

Why?

Because telling insurance company about every detail is not normal. Fact that they request such extent info from drivers is ridiculous.

People are trying to worm their way out of their responsibilities because those responsibilities are created unfairly by a gang of cartell of insurance companies operating in Ireland.

In most countries obtaining insurance policy on your car is as simple as giving them your name, address, reg number and amount of years accident free driving.

State at which Irish insurance market is is just absolute disaster and Irish people should stand against it same as they did with water charges.

amf78

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That sounds like a convincing argument in favour of buying a 535d then. Why don't you buy one?

You know the answer to that one Henry! I'll say it anyway: a remap will cost less than 400, a decent second hand car upwards of 10000 (make it 20000 to keep things real). It's 10000 myself and many others might not have.
And that's at least in part because of another anomaly we have to put up with, but I won't open yet another can of worms.
Quick hint: check how many of the 28 EU states still charge VRT (illegal according to EU legislation btw). To spoil the surprise, not too many. Fewer still charge thousands for it.

bazz26

I'd like to shake the hand of the person who can get 535d performance from a 520d with just a remap or chip update.

amf78

bazz26 wrote: »

I'd like to shake the hand of the person who can get 535d performance from a 520d with just a remap or chip update.

I agree but that's rather beside the point. Of course a newer and more powerful car goes beyond what a remap gives you, plus some extras. So you're getting a lot more for those 15-20k. But that only works if you have the money to spend. If you don't, then the 400 vs 20000 cost benefit analysis is meaningless.
And, according to the current legislation, you shouldn't be allowed any performance increase because the state empowers people who can't be bothered to look into it, or are not willing to factor in a risk they haven't even assessed.

If the likes of Superchips do hours upon hours of testing and find the remap to be safe as well as performance enhancing, what leg do insurance companies have to stand on to claim it's still unsafe or too high a risk?
Now I'm told that certain manufacturers will do a remap themselves (BMW) and that still doesn't fly with insurers. If that's not tragicomic, I don't know what is.

Insurance companies shouldn't get to decide what's safe or unsafe any more than they should decide what components or enhancements the car has in the first place.
Who should be in charge of that I don't know, but RSA or NCT centres look like a better option. In any case, some higher authority who would look at it strictly from a safety and reliability standpoint, not from a financial perspective.

bazz26

My point was that your not going to get the performance of a 535d from a 520d just by spending €400 on a remap or chip. You would have to spend money on extensive modifications under the bonnet to get that from a 520d.

amf78

bazz26 wrote: »

My point was that your not going to get the performance of a 535d from a 520d just by spending €400 on a remap or chip. You would have to spend money on extensive modifications under the bonnet to get that from a 520d.

And I understood that and I still agree with you.
But some people would be happy with just modest improvements for 400-500 without going all the way, and even that is denied to them.

honda boi

So if I was to get a family car tuned from let's say 110 to 130-140bhp it becomes a killing machine and uninsurable to insurance companies. Don't blame lads not declaring it.
Just another reason for them to get way more money of you.
I've never heard of insurance companies checking engine bays never mind ECUs.
I suppose they may look if its a well known car to be modded tho.
Was actually looking into this for my family car (ha I know ), can't really see them going 'let's get a technician to check this family cars ecu'

Driving without insurance really seems to pay off in this country!!

Neilw

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I just googled "modified car insurance Ireland". Loads of links seemingly willing to quote.

What's reasonable? Is it what you want to pay or what the going rate is?

p.s. We all know that insuring a standard BMW 535d is possible, but pricey. So why should someone just remap a BMW520d to nearer the same performance levels and expect to pay less? It's unfortunate but it puts them into an entirely different category of risk I reckon.

I would happily pay the extra premium, I wouldn't be looking for cover for free.
I spend a lot on the 4 cars I own so I'm not looking for a handout.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The quantum of premiums or even availability of cover is a side issue I think. The more fundamental one is that you've a legal obligation to do the right thing.

It's fatally flawed to argue that "I couldn't/wouldn't insure my car as mapped so I'll plough ahead anyhow and hope for the best" imho.

The last part of your post is a moral one - and isn't relevant here.

You sound like the kind of person who wouldn't cross a road without a green man. Live on the edge lol.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Neilw wrote: »

If insurance was reasonable and allowed for modifications people would be more inclined to declare them.

In most other reasonable countries this can be done but our insurance is so draconian and out of date it's near impossible to do without a point blank refusal or policy cancellation.

You see, this is the stand-off we have at the moment. The other thread on this issue has a poll showing 3:1 in favour of motorists being dishonest to their insurers. Then you ask why can't we have it like in other jurisdictions.

The insurers are not going to blink first and policyholders are raging with insurers. It's a mess that won't be fixed easily

CiniO

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

You see, this is the stand-off we have at the moment. The other thread on this issue has a poll showing 3:1 in favour of motorists being dishonest to their insurers. Then you ask why can't we have it like in other jurisdictions.

The insurers are not going to blink first and policyholders are raging with insurers. It's a mess that won't be fixed easily

In many other jurisdictions insurers don't raise premium because car was modified. And in those which do, adding a spoiler or lowering springs is not a reason for 200% premium increase. Remapping is not a reason for cancelling policy.
Also silly stuff like raising premium based on profession of a driver, make and model of a vehicle or amount of penalty points or other imaginary stuff that in eyes of Irish insurers affects risk, does not make any difference in other countries.

Neilw

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

You see, this is the stand-off we have at the moment. The other thread on this issue has a poll showing 3:1 in favour of motorists being dishonest to their insurers. Then you ask why can't we have it like in other jurisdictions.

The insurers are not going to blink first and policyholders are raging with insurers. It's a mess that won't be fixed easily

The other thread is asking if a person would declare a remap as the insurance situation is now, most will say no because the insurance company will either point blank refuse, charge through the roof or cancel the policy...so why would you risk it.

If there was an option to declare mods without being shafted I'm sure the poll would go the other way.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Neilw wrote: »

The other thread is asking if a person would declare a remap as the insurance situation is now, most will say no because the insurance company will either point blank refuse, charge through the roof or cancel the policy...so why would you risk it.

If there was an option to declare mods without being shafted I'm sure the poll would go the other way.

You want the benefits motorists enjoy in other jurisdictions before we abandon the right to be dishonest with insurance companies.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

In many other jurisdictions insurers don't raise premium because car was modified. And in those which do, adding a spoiler or lowering springs is not a reason for 200% premium increase. Remapping is not a reason for cancelling policy.
Also silly stuff like raising premium based on profession of a driver, make and model of a vehicle or amount of penalty points or other imaginary stuff that in eyes of Irish insurers affects risk, does not make any difference in other countries.

Who cares how it's done abroad? We're stuck with a numerous and expensive claims system here.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Who cares how it's done abroad? We're stuck with a numerous and expensive claims system here.

Well I care how it's done abroad.
Simply because it proves it's done wrong here.

Btw it's not first time you are reprimanding me for mentioning how's something done abroad. Hence it wasn't even me who first mentioned it in that thread. I was just replying someone.

And finally your argument makes completely no sense as even if indeed cost of claims in Ireland is high and that's the reason for high premiums (which I personally don't believe), then what does it have to do with insurers refusing or charging extreme high premiums for modifications?
Nothing....

CiniO

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

You want the benefits motorists enjoy in other jurisdictions before we abandon the right to be dishonest with insurance companies.

So what are you trying to say? That insurers in Ireland purposely inflate premium for modified cars to compensate for dishonest drivers?

Like they're thinking: only 1in 20 will tell us about modifications, so instead of rising premium by 10% like they do in other jurisdictions, we'll rise it by 200% for this one poor fella who declared and we'll end up the same ?

Pure nonsense.

Sue Pa Key Pa

CiniO wrote: »

So what are you trying to say? That insurers in Ireland purposely inflate premium for modified cars to compensate for dishonest drivers?

Like they're thinking: only 1in 20 will tell us about modifications, so instead of rising premium by 10% like they do in other jurisdictions, we'll rise it by 200% for this one poor fella who declared and we'll end up the same ?

Pure nonsense.

If insurers come across an aspect of the market where misrepresentation is common place, they will price the product to deter anyone taking the cover.. This leaves restricted availability and higher prices.

Not nonsense

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

Well I care how it's done abroad.
Simply because it proves it's done wrong here.

Btw it's not first time you are reprimanding me for mentioning how's something done abroad. Hence it wasn't even me who first mentioned it in that thread. I was just replying someone.

And finally your argument makes completely no sense as even if indeed cost of claims in Ireland is high and that's the reason for high premiums (which I personally don't believe), then what does it have to do with insurers refusing or charging extreme high premiums for modifications?
Nothing....

Motor underwriting is similar in the UK. Just thought I'd fire that in. It's not wholly relevant but so what?

Cost and frequency of claims are indeed very high here - it's well documented and universally accepted. Why do you believe any different?

Insurers can accept or decline any risk. They are commercial entities however and can quite rightly take on only business that suits them.