Business blocking traffic on a public road.

keepalive213

I'm sort of at my wit's end here and hoping someone can give me some good advice.
A local business is constantly causing traffic to be obstructed on a regional road close to where I live, by using one lane of the road as a carpark.
This has been going on for years.
It's causing a serious road safety issue as access from our side road is constantly hampered at this location.
I've contacted the guards and council more than once, but they seem toothless in the face of local politics.
I'm not a serial complainer btw, nor do I have any type of personal problem with the business in question.
Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.
Apologies if this thread is in the wrong section.

ED E

Members of the public can report traffic-related incidents using the Traffic Watch lo-call number 1890 205 805.

This will require follow up from the local sergeant to be cleared so will hopefully give the gardai a kick into action.

5M either side of a junction is a clear no no so start there.

harr

Get yourself a dash cam and or take photos of the parking and the obstruction that parking is causing...if the local guards won't take go further up in rank and speak to the local superintendent...as you said the council will more than likely brush it under the carpet because of local politics..

Victor

Shame them on their own social media.

keepalive213

To be honest I'm reluctant to go higher up the Garda ladder with this as I'd be afraid of causing trouble for myself . Local gardais answer was and I quote "sure there at it with years"
I rang the station twice before and they called out and made them clear the road (sometimes up to 8 cars) The next day, bad as ever.
Its a joke, the business has no public carpark so they use the main road instead.
Owner has a lot of clout in the area.

TheChizler

Have they been telling customers to use the road? Unless they've been encouraging this I don't see how they could be to blame. Are there double yellow lines? Maybe you could ask the council to paint them?

keepalive213

TheChizler wrote: »

Have they been telling customers to use the road? Unless they've been encouraging this I don't see how they could be to blame. Are there double yellow lines? Maybe you could ask the council to paint them?

I'm presuming that if callers to a business premises are abandoning their vehicles on a main road that the business is to blame, as the premises is right on the edge of the road and has no public carpark??

I have photos but I can't post them, probably because I'm a relatively new member.

whippet

Sounds like it will never be resolved as there is no incentive to enforce the rules.

Where I live you'd have a ticket within minutes parking in one particular area ... but during Sunday mass there is never any enforcement ... it causes chaos at a very busy junction ... but you can't be interfering with the bible bashers

keepalive213

Perhaps I should have mentioned that the business owner in question also owns an establishment in the local town, to which all the Gardai from the station go daily to eat.

AndrewJRenko

keepalive213 wrote: »

Perhaps I should have mentioned that the business owner in question also owns an establishment in the local town, to which all the Gardai from the station go daily to eat.

Escalate in writing to the local Supt, with photos showing the history of parking abuse. That would be the formal solution.

An informal solution would be to find a way to 'take over' the parking spaces yourself. Do you have access to anything(s) that could be parked their early in the day to take over the spaces, just to make a point?

harr

keepalive213 wrote: »

Perhaps I should have mentioned that the business owner in question also owns an establishment in the local town, to which all the Gardai from the station go daily to eat.

The likes of that goes on in every town and village in the country and I can nearly guarantee the business owners give a nice little cash gift to local councillors once an election comes around.
Document everything and keep times and dates you spoke to guards and the council.

TheChizler

Unless the premises doesn't have planning permission for that type of business they're probably not responsible for their customers' parking, even without permission I'm not sure the parking could get them in trouble.

Are the cars parked illegally or is it just inconvenient?

CeilingFly

Very difficult situation especially if it's a small local area where people are all known.

I don't think the gardai are the right avenue for any long term solution. It would have to be the council.

Maybe request the road section to look at putting double yellow lines there or ask a councillor to lobby on your behalf - if you have a group of people (voters) its a lot easier to get the councillors to work for you. (next elections May 2019)

keepalive213

TheChizler wrote: »

Unless the premises doesn't have planning permission for that type of business they're probably not responsible for their cusomers' parking, even then I'm not sure.

Are the cars parked illegally or is it just inconvenient?

The cars completely block one lane of a regional road, up to 8 cars, surely that's in breach of road traffic legislation.

TheChizler

keepalive213 wrote: »

The cars completely block one lane of a regional road, up to 8 cars, surely that's in breach of road traffic legislation.

Not necessarily. Unless there are double yellow lines, a continuous white line down the centre, or they're within 5 metres of a junction, or traffic is entirely blocked they're not doing anything wrong legally (there are probably a few other cases I've forgotten about).

keepalive213

https://ibb.co/kWQ9wa

This is the place

CeilingFly

Unfortunately nothing illegal about that. Broken white line, no double yellow. No junction within 5m.

If company ever has to get planning for something, you could object due to traffic hazzard.

Only thing you can do at present is to suggest to council roads section that it is a hazard and a potential accident spot.

But can't see anything else you can do.

keepalive213

CeilingFly wrote: »

Unfortunately nothing illegal about that. Broken white line, no double yellow. No junction within 5m.

If company ever has to get planning for something, you could object due to traffic hazzard.

Only thing you can do at present is to suggest to council roads section that it is a hazard and a potential accident spot.

But can't see anything else you can do.

There is a junction alright, it's not within 5 metres I'd say it's approx 15 m from the boundary of the premises. Could I send you a maps link by pm?

Del2005

CeilingFly wrote: »

Unfortunately nothing illegal about that. Broken white line, no double yellow. No junction within 5m.

If company ever has to get planning for something, you could object due to traffic hazzard.

Only thing you can do at present is to suggest to council roads section that it is a hazard and a potential accident spot.

But can't see anything else you can do.

Is that not a junction where the picture is taken from? So there is no parking opposite that, apart from the 1st two cars in the picture the rest are OK.

Not going to ask what the OP was doing while taking the picture.

keepalive213

Del2005 wrote: »

Not going to ask what the OP was doing while taking the picture.

The driver didn't take the photo

coylemj

TheChizler wrote: »

Not necessarily. Unless there are double yellow lines, a continuous white line down the centre, or they're within 5 metres of a junction, or traffic is entirely blocked they're not doing anything wrong legally (there are probably a few other cases I've forgotten about).

+1 there's a car dealer near me who declutters his showroom by dumping twenty or so cars onto the main road opposite his premises every day and it causes a bottleneck but as there's no yellow lines and it doesn't infringe any of the other rules described above, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Ultimately the only solution is to get the council to prohibit parking on that stretch of road.

CeilingFly

Are the cars on the road belonging to customers and just parked for a short period or are they "stock in trade" - cars available for sale (if its a car dealers)

If they are "stock in trade" then its a planning issue.

CeilingFly

keepalive213 wrote: »

There is a junction alright, it's not within 5 metres I'd say it's approx 15 m from the boundary of the premises. Could I send you a maps link by pm?

Parking regs is 5m / 15ft in old money.

Del2005 wrote: »

Is that not a junction where the picture is taken from? So there is no parking opposite that, apart from the 1st two cars in the picture the rest are OK.

Looks like a private entrance

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

+1 there's a car dealer near me who declutters his showroom by dumping twenty or so cars onto the main road opposite his premises every day and it causes a bottleneck but as there's no yellow lines and it doesn't infringe any of the other rules described above, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Ultimately the only solution is to get the council to prohibit parking on that stretch of road.

Selling stuff on the public road needs a licence. Advertising stuff on the public road needs a licence.

keepalive213

CeilingFly wrote: »

Are the cars on the road belonging to customers and just parked for a short period or are they "stock in trade" - cars available for sale (if its a car dealers)

If they are "stock in trade" then its a planning issue.

It would be a mixture of both. People test driving cars, dropping them off and picking them up. People parking up and having a wander around the forcourt, vans delivering parts and tyres, big multi level car trucks dropping off new stock and unloading in the carrigeway.
The junction we access this road from is a particularly blind one and is constantly hampered by cars linked to the business. Staff, deliverys etc.

GM228

Victor wrote: »

Selling stuff on the public road needs a licence. Advertising stuff on the public road needs a licence.

+1, AFAIK the local authorities will not give permission for selling of vehicles on a public road (with the exception of vehicles displayed as a prize for a raffle I believe - outside a Credit Union for example).

Gardaí have the power to seize such vehicles.

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

Selling stuff on the public road needs a licence. Advertising stuff on the public road needs a licence.

My situation (not necessarily the same as the OPs) isn't one of these small indy dealers using the public road as a showroom, it's a main dealer with a fancy purpose-built showroom. There are no 'for sale' signs on any of the cars he dumps on the public road every day so for all we know, they could be personal cars owned by the staff. More likely it's his second-hand stock but there's no way of telling unless you logged the numbers one day and compared them a month later.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

This isn't one of these small indy dealers using the public road as a showroom, it's a main dealer with a fancy purpose-built showroom. There are no 'for sale' signs on any of the cars he dumps on the public road every day so for all we know, they could be personal cars owned by the staff. More likely it's his second-hand stock but there's no way of telling unless you logged the numbers one day and compared them a month later.

They don't strictly have to have for sale signs.

Any vehicle kept on a public road for the purposes of advertising, the sale of goods, and more importabtly the provision of services or other similar purposes is illegal.

If they are being test driven or used for example as cars just for viewing by potential customers then it's illegal.

keepalive213

coylemj wrote: »

My situation (not necessarily the same as the OPs) isn't one of these small indy dealers using the public road as a showroom, it's a main dealer with a fancy purpose-built showroom. There are no 'for sale' signs on any of the cars he dumps on the public road every day so for all we know, they could be personal cars owned by the staff. More likely it's his second-hand stock but there's no way of telling unless you logged the numbers one day and compared them a month later.

The staff don't park there, they clog up our access junction 15 m away instead.

ED E

Start with a http://fixyourstreet.ie/ request for Double Yellows due to the hazard produced by parking. Give them a couple weeks and go from there.

keepalive213

ED E wrote: »

Start with a http://fixyourstreet.ie/ request for Double Yellows due to the hazard produced by parking. Give them a couple weeks and go from there.

There's no point, the guards won't enforce it. Mod deletion

AndrewJRenko

In Dublin, there have been a few Court cases that reported on connections between 2nd hand car dealers and the various crime syndicates. Tread carefully.

keepalive213

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

In Dublin, there have been a few Court cases that reported on connections between 2nd hand car dealers and the various crime syndicates. Tread carefully.

This is very rural Ireland, I somehow doubt it.

ED E

keepalive213 wrote: »

There's no point, the guards won't enforce it. They are getting too well looked after.

If you're going to be defeatist then just move to a city.

keepalive213

ED E wrote: »

If you're going to be defeatist then just move to a city.

More like realistic, incidentally I just did as you suggested, it can't hurt.

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

My situation (not necessarily the same as the OPs) isn't one of these small indy dealers using the public road as a showroom, it's a main dealer with a fancy purpose-built showroom. There are no 'for sale' signs on any of the cars he dumps on the public road every day so for all we know, they could be personal cars owned by the staff. More likely it's his second-hand stock but there's no way of telling unless you logged the numbers one day and compared them a month later.

Corner site in Dublin?

Del2005

coylemj wrote: »

My situation (not necessarily the same as the OPs) isn't one of these small indy dealers using the public road as a showroom, it's a main dealer with a fancy purpose-built showroom. There are no 'for sale' signs on any of the cars he dumps on the public road every day so for all we know, they could be personal cars owned by the staff. More likely it's his second-hand stock but there's no way of telling unless you logged the numbers one day and compared them a month later.

Check for tax, NCT and a displayed insurance disc. If there are none the council or Gardaí can action them.

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

Corner site in Dublin?

Windsor Motors (Nissan) on Deansgrange Road, opposite the Blackrock end of the cemetery.

Thanks to the Irish practice of driving as close to the centre of the road as possible, nervous drivers coming from Deansgrange Cross heading towards Blackrock always come to a stop when they reach the line of parked cars opposite the showroom if there is oncoming traffic.

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

They don't strictly have to have for sale signs.

Any vehicle kept on a public road for the purposes of advertising, the sale of goods, and more importabtly the provision of services or other similar purposes is illegal.

If they are being test driven or used for example as cars just for viewing by potential customers then it's illegal.

Del2005 wrote: »

Check for tax, NCT and a displayed insurance disc. If there are none the council or Gardaí can action them.

Dream on lads.

beauf

TheChizler wrote: »

Not necessarily. Unless there are double yellow lines, a continuous white line down the centre, or they're within 5 metres of a junction, or traffic is entirely blocked they're not doing anything wrong legally (there are probably a few other cases I've forgotten about).

Lots of places have this in Dublin and taxi and other vehicles park there continuously. you see dangerous parking all over, every day and its extremely rare to see Garda doing anything about it.

TheChizler

beauf wrote: »

Lots of places have this in Dublin and taxi and other vehicles park there continuously. you see dangerous parking all over, every day and its extremely rare to see Garda doing anything about it.

I get that it's annoying and inconvenient when it's reduced to a single lane, but don't see how it's dangerous here. And if it's not dangerous or illegal what would you expect the Gardaí to do?

Victor

TheChizler wrote: »

I get that it's annoying and inconvenient when it's reduced to a single lane, but don't see how it's dangerous here. And if it's not dangerous or illegal what would you expect the Gardaí to do?

It's near a junction, so it could be both dangerous or illegal.

beauf

TheChizler wrote: »

I get that it's annoying and inconvenient when it's reduced to a single lane, but don't see how it's dangerous here. And if it's not dangerous or illegal what would you expect the Gardaí to do?

I'm traditional in thinking dangerous AND illegal is within the Garda remit.

The rules and laws around parking are mainly there to prevent people getting killed or injured. Not just to annoy people for no good reason.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

They don't strictly have to have for sale signs.

Any vehicle kept on a public road for the purposes of advertising, the sale of goods, and more importabtly the provision of services or other similar purposes is illegal.

If they are being test driven or used for example as cars just for viewing by potential customers then it's illegal.

Del2005 wrote: »

Check for tax, NCT and a displayed insurance disc. If there are none the council or Gardaan action them.

Dream on lads.

Gardaí are doing such as part of the on-going "operation sign-off".

Here's such a seizure.

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/831570048015880198

keepalive213

Can anyone tell me, as regards road traffic rules, is there a minimum distance the cars facing the road should be back from the broken white line?

ie. not the cars parked in the road, the line inside them facing the road.


https://ibb.co/kWQ9wa

OP

TheChizler

beauf wrote: »

I'm traditional in thinking dangerous AND illegal is within the Garda remit.

The rules and laws around parking are mainly there to prevent people getting killed or injured. Not just to annoy people for no good reason.

It is but what part of this is dangerous or illegal? We've seen a picture of the road and nothing looks wrong legally, and the OP says the junction is 15 m away from the parked cars (unless I've picked that up wrong).

I'm on the OP's side here and understand it's very inconvenient but to me this looks no different to any other narrow road in the country.

I think the best bet is to encourage the council to paint a continuous line (point out the private entrance) or double yellows. It might not be enforced but the problem should be reduced.

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

Gardare doing such as part of the on-going "operation sign-off".

Here's such a seizure.

But there is a critical element here which is that the cars in the Garda tweet you posted were seized because they were parked ''on (the) public road for purposes of sale." I take that to means that there was signage of some type on the windscreen indicating that they were for sale.

If they're simply parked on the road to clear out space in the showroom and there is no signage on the cars to indicate that they are for sale so you can't distinguish staff cars from the dealer's secondhand stock, then the Gardai can't seize them. That as I see it is the situation with the OP's dealer and the one near me.

AndrewJRenko

coylemj wrote: »

But there is a critical element here which is that the cars in the Garda tweet you posted were seized because they were parked ''on (the) public road for purposes of sale." I take that to means that there was signage of some type on the windscreen indicating that they were for sale.

If they're simply parked on the road to clear out space in the showroom and there is no signage on the cars to indicate that they are for sale (so you can't distinguish staff cars from the dealer's secondhand stock), the Gardai can't seize them. That as I see it is the situation with the OP's dealer and the one near me.

But they do need to be taxed and insured to be on the public road, right? Worth checking OP.

CeilingFly

keepalive213 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me, as regards road traffic rules, is there a minimum distance the cars facing the road should be back from the broken white line?

ie. not the cars parked in the road, the line inside them facing the road.


https://ibb.co/kWQ9wa

OP

nope -

unfortunately this is just one of those things you get in rural Ireland and nothing from the screenshots or information suggests that there's any illegal parking. Inconsiderate, yes, but illegal, no.

Similarly outside many rural churches every Sunday and every funeral cars are parked without any consideration to other motorists. Wow betide any garda or traffic warden that put a ticket on such a car.


I think you have two choices - accept the inconvenience and live with it and get on with things, or let it affect you, try every angle to change it, stress yourself out and still have nothing changing.

Only if the business (or other business in same place) is looking for planning for something new will you realistically have any chance to correct it.

beauf

TheChizler wrote: »

It is but what part of this is dangerous or illegal? We've seen a picture of the road and nothing looks wrong legally, and the OP says the junction is 15 m away from the parked cars (unless I've picked that up wrong).

I'm on the OP's side here and understand it's very inconvenient but to me this looks no different to any other narrow road in the country.

I think the best bet is to encourage the council to paint a continuous line (point out the private entrance) or double yellows. It might not be enforced but the problem should be reduced.

I was taking about my experience.

But in that photo its looks like existing the properties on the side with the cars parking have their view of the road when existing entirely blocked left and right by all the parked cars. It also forces a single lane for an extended length which is going to a problem for cars using entrances on both side of the road.

If its a lot safer when the cars aren't there. Then the its logical that parking there increases the danger. Considering that its not a temporary obstruction, but effectively a permanent one. Which increases the risk.

The local council should really take action to prevent this kinda parking on a continuous basis.

beauf

CeilingFly wrote: »

....

I think you have two choices - accept the inconvenience and live with it and get on with things, or let it affect you, try every angle to change it, stress yourself out and still have nothing changing.

Only if the business (or other business in same place) is looking for planning for something new will you realistically have any chance to correct it.

We had similar parking near where I live, making exiting our road a game of chicken every time. I played up the danger it posed, and now that the council had been informed, any serious accident, would be down to the in action of the council to tackle it. So it was stopped. That was a main/distributor road.

On a residential road, in my experience the council will usually respond to a petition of local residents, to change road markings and resident parking.