Number of people using the green line Luas

sunrainmooncl

It seems like loads of houses are being built at the end of the green line. New one Clay Farm will be finished soon.

How do you think this will effect the Luas? I know they're making the trams longer. Will that offset the number of people getting on every morning?

Is it reasonable to expect to get on the Luas at say Dundrum or Milltown in the morning?

sunrainmooncl

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

It seems like loads of houses are being built at the end of the green line. New one Clay Farm will be finished soon.

How do you think this will effect the Luas? I know they're making the trams longer. Will that offset the number of people getting on every morning?

Is it reasonable to expect to get on the Luas at say Dundrum or Milltown in the morning?

Dublins number 1 problem at the moment is lack of supply of housing. Once (if) that gets resolved, the issue will be transport in and out of the city. I get the green luas every day and from 8-9 in the morning it is standing room only from Dundrum and in the evening, from 5-6pm it is standing room only from Harcourt street at least as far as Central Park.

Next to me they are building the cherrywood development which will have about 4000 homes. Your question is, if everyone there opts to use the luas will it be able to take the increased numbers? No. If half use the M50 and half use the luas will it be able to handle the increase. No.

So no, is the answer.

ED E

With current capacity (based on using it in 2016) Windy Arbour is full at 8.00 and by 8.20 its jammers to the point where 0-2 people get on each service. If you want to easily board you arrive before 8.

The change is from 40m to 53m is a ~30% increase in length (probably more in pax capacity as the drivers cabins are fixed) which is great in the short term and should mean it doesnt overload until Cowper and then will unload shortly after at Charlemont.

Long term if the housing developments add a large demand I'd expect the current Windy Arbour problems to move back to Ballaly and getting on at Milltown will be impossible at peak.

sunrainmooncl

Deleted User wrote: »

Dublins number 1 problem at the moment is lack of supply of housing. Once (if) that gets resolved, the issue will be transport in and out of the city. I get the green luas every day and from 8-9 in the morning it is standing room only from Dundrum and in the evening, from 5-6pm it is standing room only from Harcourt street at least as far as Central Park.

Next to me they are building the cherrywood development which will have about 4000 homes. Your question is, if everyone there opts to use the luas will it be able to take the increased numbers? No. If half use the M50 and half use the luas will it be able to handle the increase. No.

So no, is the answer.

Standing only is grand though. That's what I would expect on a tram and it's the same in any city.

The increases in numbers doesn't sound great though..

sunrainmooncl

ED E wrote: »

With current capacity (based on using it in 2016) Windy Arbour is full at 8.00 and by 8.20 its jammers to the point where 0-2 people get on each service. If you want to easily board you arrive before 8.

The change is from 40m to 53m is a ~30% increase in length (probably more in pax capacity as the drivers cabins are fixed) which is great in the short term and should mean it doesnt overload until Cowper and then will unload shortly after at Charlemont.

Long term if the housing developments add a large demand I'd expect the current Windy Arbour problems to move back to Ballaly and getting on at Milltown will be impossible at peak.

Thanks for the info. Do you know if people generally queue in a well behaved manner or is it just every man for themselves?

tallaghtfornia

Isn't it crazy that back in the 1950s this was a railway line and the Government at the time closed it due to not thinking of the long term. I always said they should have reopened this line as far as bray using the Dart. look at it now you can hardly get on a tram at peak times.
Just my tuppence worth

devnull

ED E wrote: »

With current capacity (based on using it in 2016) Windy Arbour is full at 8.00 and by 8.20 its jammers to the point where 0-2 people get on each service. If you want to easily board you arrive before 8.

The change is from 40m to 53m is a ~30% increase in length (probably more in pax capacity as the drivers cabins are fixed) which is great in the short term and should mean it doesnt overload until Cowper and then will unload shortly after at Charlemont.

Long term if the housing developments add a large demand I'd expect the current Windy Arbour problems to move back to Ballaly and getting on at Milltown will be impossible at peak.

LUAS Tram Sizes
3000 Class - 40m
4000 Class - 40m
5000 Class - 43m
6000 Class - 54.7m

The new 7 trams that will make up the 6000 class are designed to carry 380.

Del.Monte

tallaghtfornia wrote: »

Isn't it crazy that back in the 1950s this was a railway line and the Government at the time closed it due to not thinking of the long term. I always said they should have reopened this line as far as bray using the Dart. look at it now you can hardly get on a tram at peak times.
Just my tuppence worth

I think that you will find the DART is crowded at peak times too. The Luas offers superior penetration into the heart of the city compared to the DART.

devnull

hytrogen wrote: »

The waves of people strolling along the canals to GCD from Charlemont is intensifying daily and you see the cokebike truck can't resupply the stand there quick enough some days..

I used to make that exact journey in the past, I've worked close to EastPoint and also close to Grand Canal Dock and by far the quickest method of transport was to hire a Dublin Bike in the morning and cycle from Charlemont all the way down to GCD, although it's an easy cycle because the whole thing is pretty much a straight line downhill in mornings and uphill at nights.

However if I started late I would often have problems with getting a bike like you say because they couldn't be restocked quick enough, but the bikes were a godsend when I was living in Dundrum near Balally, because with a little bit of walking I could go from paying a 3 zone Luas ticket (Balally to SSG) to a 1 zone Dundrum to Charlemont and use Dublin Bikes the rest of the way!

hytrogen

tallaghtfornia wrote:

Isn't it crazy that back in the 1950s this was a railway line and the Government at the time closed it due to not thinking of the long term. I always said they should have reopened this line as far as bray using the Dart. look at it now you can hardly get on a tram at peak times. Just my tuppence worth

+1 nostalgia at our forefathers stupidity is great.
That line used to run all the way down to Aughrim past Arklow back then. Could you imagine Shillelagh and Woodbridge as railed commuter towns to Dublin and Wicklow now though? Such a shame..

Del.Monte wrote:

I think that you will find the DART is crowded at peak times too. The Luas offers superior penetration into the heart of the city compared to the DART.

I definitely think the Luas should now link up to the Dart at Brayruit as an alternative direction for some commuters, brayside of Dundrum, to get into town quicker if you work in CGD at crazy hour. The waves of people strolling along the canals to GCD from Charlemont is intensifying daily and you see the Cokebike truck can't resupply the stand there quick enough some days..

hytrogen

devnull wrote:

I used to make that exact journey in the past, I've worked close to EastPoint and also close to Grand Canal Dock and by far the quickest method of transport was to hire a Dublin Bike in the morning and cycle from Charlemont all the way down to GCD, although it's an easy cycle because the whole thing is pretty much a straight line downhill in mornings and uphill at nights.

It is definitely the most strategic and most popular stands for them. Now we need to get the trail of cars off the canal road, if only they would put on a few more buses along it from say the Mad Cow or even the 'Core / Blackhorse Inn stop to GCD.

Victor

Del.Monte wrote: »

I think that you will find the DART is crowded at peak times too.

But an 8-car DART can carry more than 1,000 people.

The Luas offers superior penetration into the heart of the city compared to the DART.

Not with the Green line at the moment.

Stephen15

hytrogen wrote: »

I definitely think the Luas should now link up to the Dart at Brayruit as an alternative direction for some commuters, brayside of Dundrum, to get into town quicker if you work in CGD at crazy hour. The waves of people strolling along the canals to GCD from Charlemont is intensifying daily and you see the Cokebike truck can't resupply the stand there quick enough some days..

It would probably be quicker to get a 75 down to DL or a 17 to Blackrock to get to the Dart from Dundrum. Extending the Luas to Bray would be a waste of resources as Bray already has the Dart and the highly frequent 145.

IE 222

There is also plans to extend Metro North if built onto the green that will really help adding airport traffic into it as well. I give it another 10 years and it will have the same problems as Irish rail, trying to run every route along the same 2 tracks while rapidly increasing the catchment.

I can't see the extension to Bray been much of a releif more likely to increase footfall. Maybe a shorter link to shankil will encourage more to travel to connect with DART or better still Dun Laoghaire.

4000 units will home over 10,000 people

LeChienMefiant

Are the fold down seats used at peak times? They're labelled that they shouldn't be for good reason. Also it seems people bunch near the doors and don't move into the tram, for example into the join between carriages. That's my experience traveling out of town in the morning and back in at evening time. Less busy that way but can get uncomfortable at times.

hytrogen

Stephen15 wrote:

It would probably be quicker to get a 75 down to DL or a 17 to Blackrock to get to the Dart from Dundrum. Extending the Luas to Bray would be a waste of resources as Bray already has the Dart and the highly frequent 145.

Aah now there's two lines that need re-electification, but I would argue as fundrum is the bottleneck of the past 30years or so it would be quicker, especially given the increasing pop density around fundrum, for those living south to go down to Brayruit and grab a bus or dart into town, as you say the 145 is frequently serviced

ED E

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

Thanks for the info. Do you know if people generally queue in a well behaved manner or is it just every man for themselves?

Mostly ok. There are some right d1cks though that will insist on getting in when its already 110% sardines. Elbows in the belly. I've been tempted to send such flying back out onto the platform.

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Are the fold down seats used at peak times? They're labelled that they shouldn't be for good reason. Also it seems people bunch near the doors and don't move into the tram, for example into the join between carriages. That's my experience traveling out of town in the morning and back in at evening time. Less busy that way but can get uncomfortable at times.

Hit and miss.

Geuze

What are peak frequencies on the line? I mean from 7-10am.

12ph every 5 mins?

15ph every 4 mins?

20ph every 3 mins?

ED E

IIRC 4mins interval is the maximum the line can accommodate due to the crossover action at the green.

AMKC

Victor wrote: »

But an 8-car DART can carry more than 1,000 people.

Not with the Green line at the moment.

]But an 8-car DART can carry more than 1,000 people.

They are packed. I was on one there a few weeks ago and it was jammers. You could barely move. It was like something from a 3rd world country. Never again. I sweated more that day than I would in an average week.

magicbastarder

i have been on packed (rail based) transport in several european cities in the last year or two. there's nothing third world about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7kor5nHtZQ

Victor

ED E wrote: »

IIRC 4mins interval is the maximum the line can accommodate due to the crossover action at the green.

I don't think such a limit exists - I've seen as many as 7 trams at SSG. With the extension to Broombridge, it won't be happening any more.

There are practical limits with the power supply, but that can be enhanced by adding new transformers.

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

i have been on packed (rail based) transport in several european cities in the last year or two. there's nothing third world about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7kor5nHtZQ

Dublin is not Tokyo. But its becoming like that on my train anyway. Leaving people on the platform isn't uncommon, and its only going to get worse.

sunrainmooncl

AMKC wrote: »

]But an 8-car DART can carry more than 1,000 people.

They are packed. I was on one there a few weeks ago and it was jammers. You could barely move. It was like something from a 3rd world country. Never again. I sweated more that day than I would in an average week.

Which 3rd world countries are you referring to?

beauf wrote: »

Dublin is not Tokyo. But its becoming like that on my train anyway. Leaving people on the platform isn't uncommon, and its only going to get worse.

I was in Tokyo recently and didn't see anything like what was shown in the video. I have seen people bursting out of the tram doors in India though. Are you talking about the Luas or the Dart?

LXFlyer

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

It seems like loads of houses are being built at the end of the green line. New one Clay Farm will be finished soon.

How do you think this will effect the Luas? I know they're making the trams longer. Will that offset the number of people getting on every morning?

Is it reasonable to expect to get on the Luas at say Dundrum or Milltown in the morning?

The service pattern is designed to provide people along the inner stops with a service.

The schedule contains a mix of Brides Glen and Sandyford starters and this will continue when the line is extended northwards through the city centre.

There are also unscheduled peak time extras from Sandyford to SSG that are fitted in around the scheduled trams to "clear the road" - in other words to mop up people left at inner stops.

It is my understanding that these peak extras between Sandyford and SSG will continue to operate after the city extension opens so there will be a mix of destinations northwards (SSG, Parnell and Broombridge).

It's a fact of life with systems like this around the world that you may have to wait a short while to get on a tram as the loadings get spread out.

The newer longer trams (it's expected that all trams will get extended in due course) will make a difference however.

The current timetable is available on www.a-b.ie under "Timetables" - enter "Green" and submit. Beware that it uses starting times to order them so you'll need to rejig it a bit to see them in order from intermediate stops from Sandyford inwards.

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

Dublin is not Tokyo. But its becoming like that on my train anyway. Leaving people on the platform isn't uncommon, and its only going to get worse.

Re suburban rail capacity, the return of the 2700s will make a significant difference to peak capacity as it could mean for example two additional 6-car trains and an additional four car set for use on Connolly suburban services - the extra standing space will also make a difference.

In the slightly longer term the planned order of additional intermediate coaches for the ICRs will mean the ability to lengthen outer suburban services where needed and operate more trains across the network.

Cloudio9

LXFlyer wrote: »

Re suburban rail capacity, the return of the 2700s will make a significant difference to peak capacity as it could mean for example two additional 6-car trains and an additional four car set for use on Connolly suburban services - the extra standing space will also make a difference.

In the slightly longer term the planned order of additional intermediate coaches for the ICRs will mean the ability to lengthen outer suburban services where needed and operate more trains across the network.

what does return of the 2700 mean?

Re Dart, my anecdotal evidence is that on the north side, the Malahide line is quite crowded with large working populations but the Howth branch seems to have spare capacity.

LXFlyer

Cloudio9 wrote: »

what does return of the 2700 mean?

Re Dart, my anecdotal evidence is that on the north side, the Malahide line is quite crowded with large working populations but the Howth branch seems to have spare capacity.

The 2700 Class Diesel Multiple Units that were removed from service during the recession are to be restored to service once they have had a full refurbishment.

bk

Victor wrote: »

But an 8-car DART can carry more than 1,000 people.

Not with the Green line at the moment.

But the DART is only every 15 minutes * or so, versus every 4 minutes for Luas.

The Luas Green line actually carries slightly more passengers per day then the DART.

Sure you might not be able to get on the first Luas that arrives, but you can jump on the next and you still end up waiting less then you would of for a DART.

* Hopefully we will eventually get the 10 minute DART schedule soon.

The new longer 54 meters Luas trams should help in the short term and the latest rumours about Metro North seem to indicate that the Green Line south of Charlemont will be integrated into Metro North and upgraded to Metro standard, which should add a greatly to it's capacity.

I have to say, it is clear to me that the housing crisis is in fact a transport infrastructure crisis. We have plenty of space around Dublin to build massive numbers of new homes. The issue is our existing roads, rails and buses simply can't handle the extra numbers this would bring.

We badly need the Dublin Metro and DART underground to open up areas of Dublin to development.

antoinolachtnai

The 'problem' with the extended Luas Green Line is that it will be massively successful at attracting new passengers.

The number of destinations available on the network will instantly double for all customers this means that the number of journeys that are possible (on Luas alone) will increase exponentially, i.e., if you double the number of destination, you will quadruple the number of possible journeys.

In practical terms an example. Imagine if you live in Dundrum. At the moment, you have no access to a major acute hospital on the Luas (there are lots of reasons people make journeys to hospitals, for social, work or medical reasons). Now you will have be able to get to three major acute hospitals on the Luas. This means you have far more reasons why you might want to take the Luas.

As a result, there will be an exponential growth in demand for the Luas. This won't happen instantly, but it will become apparent over the first six months of operations and will hit hard in the system's second winter (2018).

Increasing the length of a small number of Luas trams by 20 percent isn't really going to be enough to hold even the first month's growth. Even if all the trams get lengthened (which I am sure will happen) it won't really help much.

The above is just talking about the 'pull' factors, i.e., the fact that Luas will be more attractive to travellers because of the extra destinations. But there are also going to be 'push' factors that will 'force' people to leave their existing mode and switch to Luas. The Luas is going to make car journeys very difficult and slow down the buses through the city centre, as almost all routes will need to cross the Luas with its new extra-long trams twice, rather than once as at present. (There are also issues for bikes with the new luas lines.)

Pull factors plus push factors are going to add up to a massive increase in demand on the Luas system.

Jamie2k9

* Hopefully we will eventually get the 10 minute DART schedule soon.

Not to go off topic but considering all the recent operational changes between Connolly/GCD by terminating/starting services elsewhere, stabling changes and cancelling some stock movements etc to improve OTP and current ops.

Interesting to see the faith of the planned 10 minute DART service, they are doing a lot of work to improve things so will they just throw it away with more DARTs lather in the year.

Perhaps they have seen sense and it's not really practical.

bk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not to go off topic but considering all the recent operational changes between Connolly/GCD by terminating/starting services elsewhere, stabling changes and cancelling some stock movements etc to improve OTP and current ops.

Interesting to see the faith of the planned 10 minute DART service, they are doing a lot of work to improve things so will they just throw it away with more DARTs lather in the year.

Perhaps they have seen sense and it's not really practical.

Huh?! How is DART's every 10 minutes throwing anything away!

DART is Irish Rails most important service. It carries more passengers then all commuter rail and intercity rail put together and it is the only service that IR has that has any hope of competing with Luas and Metro.

Both IR and Dublin needs DART to improve and expand.

Sorry if I have misunderstood you.

Jamie2k9

bk wrote: »

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not to go off topic but considering all the recent operational changes between Connolly/GCD by terminating/starting services elsewhere, stabling changes and cancelling some stock movements etc to improve OTP and current ops.

Interesting to see the faith of the planned 10 minute DART service, they are doing a lot of work to improve things so will they just throw it away with more DARTs lather in the year.

Perhaps they have seen sense and it's not really practical.

Huh?! How is DART's every 10 minutes throwing anything away!

DART is Irish Rails most important service. It carries more passengers then all commuter rail and intercity rail put together and it is the only service that IR has that has any hope of competing with Luas and Metro.

Both IR and Dublin needs DART to improve and expand.

Sorry if I have misunderstood you.

Implementing the 10 minute schedule will just undo all the work they have been doing to address the performance problems since PPT services started, while not directly responsible they just exposed the problems.

Also it doesn't need to compete with Luas, they are two very different systems

LXFlyer

Without putting additional infrastructure in place that will allow for Northern Line and Enterprise trains to overtake DARTs en route between Connolly and Raheny, a clockface 10 minute DART frequency will mean that both of those services will inevitably see journey times increase.

One Northern Line path an hour will have an acceptable journey time, but any others will have unacceptably long journey times due to being stuck behind an all stations DART.

What will probably have to happen is the 10 minute clockface DART frequency be compromised to facilitate the Enterprise by moving DARTs a couple of minutes either side of the 10 minute gap. Otherwise Enterprise journey times will lengthen.

The Connolly Station element of the city centre resignalling project has yet to take place - I'm not sure if funding has been even allocated for it.

The NTA are putting the cart before the horse with this proposal. Don't get me wrong - I want to see the 10 minute DART service in place. But not without putting in additionl overtaking facilities between Connolly and Raheny, a second passing loop at Clogriffin, proper turnback sidings at Malahide and finally completing the city centre resignalling project at Connolly.

ED E

Back to luas for a second....what are the official passenger numbers of the old and new trams in the Irish config?

bk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Also it doesn't need to compete with Luas, they are two very different systems

Compete is probably the wrong word.

You are of course correct. They are technically very different, but their goal is much the same, mass transit.

DART is the only system that Irish Rail has that comes close to mass transit. It of course carries lots of passengers, but I do feel that it falls short of being true mass transit at the moment. To be considered mass transit, It really needs to have frequencies of at most every 10 minutes and it falls well sort of that at the moment.

DART of course doesn't directly compete with Luas/Metro. But I would argue that it is in competition with Luas/Metro for public opinion, government opinion and resources.

For example I feel the delays to getting the 10 minute schedule going and other issues over the years has caused Metro North to get priority for government budget over Dart Underground and if IR aren't careful and deliver, then it might even risk DU in the long term.

Irish Rail no longer operate in a vacuum. They are competing with Luas/Metro for funding.

bk

ED E wrote: »

Back to luas for a second....what are the official passenger numbers of the old and new trams in the Irish config?

Hard to say exactly. The numbers originally quoted for the shorter trams when the Luas was first opened seem to be way out of whack with what is quoted today.

It seems that back then they measured it as 5 people per square meter, but today they use 3 people per square meter, so you can't really directly compare the numbers.

Based on how they use to measure it, the new 54 meter trams would be able to to carry 500 passengers, but today they quote it as 369 passengers.

In reality one way or another it is a good but more then the original Luas teams

sunrainmooncl

bk wrote: »

Hard to say exactly. The numbers originally quoted for the shorter trams when the Luas was first opened seem to be way out of whack with what is quoted today.

It seems that back then they measured it as 5 people per square meter, but today they use 3 people per square meter, so you can't really directly compare the numbers.

Based on how they use to measure it, the new 54 meter trams would be able to to carry 500 passengers, but today they quote it as 369 passengers.

In reality one way or another it is a good but more then the original Luas teams

Maybe they're trying to tell us we've gotten uglier and fatter?

sunrainmooncl

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The 'problem' with the extended Luas Green Line is that it will be massively successful at attracting new passengers.

The number of destinations available on the network will instantly double for all customers this means that the number of journeys that are possible (on Luas alone) will increase exponentially, i.e., if you double the number of destination, you will quadruple the number of possible journeys.

In practical terms an example. Imagine if you live in Dundrum. At the moment, you have no access to a major acute hospital on the Luas (there are lots of reasons people make journeys to hospitals, for social, work or medical reasons). Now you will have be able to get to three major acute hospitals on the Luas. This means you have far more reasons why you might want to take the Luas.

As a result, there will be an exponential growth in demand for the Luas. This won't happen instantly, but it will become apparent over the first six months of operations and will hit hard in the system's second winter (2018).

Increasing the length of a small number of Luas trams by 20 percent isn't really going to be enough to hold even the first month's growth. Even if all the trams get lengthened (which I am sure will happen) it won't really help much.

The above is just talking about the 'pull' factors, i.e., the fact that Luas will be more attractive to travellers because of the extra destinations. But there are also going to be 'push' factors that will 'force' people to leave their existing mode and switch to Luas. The Luas is going to make car journeys very difficult and slow down the buses through the city centre, as almost all routes will need to cross the Luas with its new extra-long trams twice, rather than once as at present. (There are also issues for bikes with the new luas lines.)

Pull factors plus push factors are going to add up to a massive increase in demand on the Luas system.

I plan to be part of the growth in population on the Luas, hence why this thread exists

If I can get on around the milltown-ish stops then I will be a very happy commuter. If I can't... I'll have to buy a bike and risk my life everyday

markpb

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

I plan to be part of the growth in population on the Luas, hence why this thread exists

If I can get on around the milltown-ish stops then I will be a very happy commuter. If I can't... I'll have to buy a bike and risk my life everyday

Like LXFlyer said, the trams starting at Sandyford are aimed at people like you. They'll definitely be busy, you almost definitely won't be able to get on the first one if you arrive at the platform at 8:30 but a little earlier or wait a little, you should be fine.

The cycle lane between Milltown and the city centre via Ranelagh is actually fine and very busy (with cyclists). Depending on where you work, it's almost definitely a far better option.

Zebra3

bk wrote: »

I have to say, it is clear to me that the housing crisis is in fact a transport infrastructure crisis. We have plenty of space around Dublin to build massive numbers of new homes. The issue is our existing roads, rails and buses simply can't handle the extra numbers this would bring.

We badly need the Dublin Metro and DART underground to open up areas of Dublin to development.

How about we build up in the city centre area instead of destroying the countryside? That can relieve pressure on our PT system. People can walk to work instead.

bk

Zebra3 wrote: »

How about we build up in the city centre area instead of destroying the countryside? That can relieve pressure on our PT system. People can walk to work instead.

I couldn't agree more

ED E

sunrainmooncl wrote: »

I plan to be part of the growth in population on the Luas, hence why this thread exists

If I can get on around the milltown-ish stops then I will be a very happy commuter. If I can't... I'll have to buy a bike and risk my life everyday

Milltown is right on a big block of commuters. Windy arbour sides a golf course and a council estate which sees a lot less rush hour workers. As a result the former tends to be busier so if you could walk to WA you'll have an easier time, short or long trams.

beauf

Zebra3 wrote: »

How about we build up in the city centre area instead of destroying the countryside? That can relieve pressure on our PT system. People can walk to work instead.

Well I don't disagree with that. But not everyone wants to live in the city.

The countryside is losing population. Perhaps a joint economic strategy to move/create jobs in the towns and city outside of the commuter belt is also badly needed.

bk

beauf wrote: »

The countryside is losing population. Perhaps a joint economic strategy to move/create jobs in the towns and city outside of the commuter belt is also badly needed.

Unfortunately it just doesn't work. Urbanisation has happened in every European country 50 years ago after ww2, we are just experiencing the same now.

The sooner we get over this idea that we can stop urbanisation and instead focus on actually building the infrastructure in our cities to take the growing populations the better.

beauf

I don't really understand your point. We've had urbanization since WWII too. I agreed with city center development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallaght#Modern_development

However we've had economic polices in the past....

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/19/story-of-cities-25-shannon-ireland-china-economic-boom

bk

beauf wrote: »

I don't really understand your point. We've had urbanization since WWII too. I agreed with city center development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallaght#Modern_development

However we've had economic polices in the past....

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/19/story-of-cities-25-shannon-ireland-china-economic-boom

Nowhere near the same extent. We are currently at just 64% urban, which is one of the lowest numbers in Europe. England, France, etc. are up around 90% urban and increasing. We will continue to head the same way.

As for our previous economic strategies, largely complete disasters and pure parish pump politics which have lead to the current housing crisis due to the underinvestment in Dublin, Cork, etc. infrastructure which is need to house people where they actually want to live.

magicbastarder

beauf wrote: »

The countryside is losing population.

random aside, but there are 9 counties (including from the 6 counties) whose population could fit entirely in croke park.
two counties - longford and leitrim - could fit inside at the same time, and without even using up all the seats, let alone needing the standing capacity.

beauf

bk wrote: »

Nowhere near the same extent. We are currently at just 64% urban, which is one of the lowest numbers in Europe. England, France, etc. are up around 90% urban and increasing. We will continue to head the same way.

As for our previous economic strategies, largely complete disasters and pure parish pump politics which have lead to the current housing crisis due to the underinvestment in Dublin, Cork, etc. infrastructure which is need to house people where they actually want to live.

I'm not sure why you compare Ireland with say England considering it had a worldwide trade and shipping empire and the industrial revolution its urbanization was largely a result of that.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/census-2016-revealed-irelands-fastestgrowing-town-the-county-with-65pc-born-elsewhere-and-the-urbanrural-divide-35703706.html

one-in-three residents who moved in the year to April 2016 went to Dublin.
And it also shows the increasing rate of urbanisation across the country, and the east/west divide.

People are moving not where they want to live. But where they can get work.

Everything else, transport, housing, are symptoms of that move. Gross simplification aside.

Victor

bk wrote: »

Unfortunately it just doesn't work. Urbanisation has happened in every European country 50 years ago after ww2, we are just experiencing the same now.

Indeed, it's been a trend for the last 10,000-15,000 years.

beauf

Victor wrote: »

Indeed, it's been a trend for the last 10,000-15,000 years.

you got me curious so I looked it up on wiki

From the development of the earliest cities in Mesopotamia and Egypt until the 18th century, an equilibrium existed between the vast majority of the population who engaged in subsistence agriculture in a rural context, and small centres of populations in the towns where economic activity consisted primarily of trade at markets and manufactures on a small scale. Due to the primitive and relatively stagnant state of agriculture throughout this period, the ratio of rural to urban population remained at a fixed equilibrium. However, a significant increase in the percentage of the global urban population can be traced in the 1st millennium BCE.[7] Another significant increase can be traced to Mughal India, where 15% of its population lived in urban centers during the 16th–17th centuries, higher than in Europe at the time.[8][9] In comparison, the percentage of the European population living in cities was 8–13% in 1800.[10]
With the onset of the British agricultural and industrial revolution in the late 18th century, this relationship was finally broken and an unprecedented growth in urban population took place over the course of the 19th century, both through continued migration from the countryside and due to the tremendous demographic expansion that occurred at that time. In England, the proportion of the population living in cities jumped from 17% in 1801 to 72% in 1891 (for other countries the figure was: 37% in France, 41% in Prussia and 28% in the United States).[11]