Will this feminist narrative become undone in the next world war?

jeanjolie

I know you guys hate gender threads on After Hours but this is a serious question that's more critical of the movement in a constructive way.

People say that feminists don't get that a lot of gender norms originate due to innate biological differences in the physical and mental aspects of males and females. To what extent is debatable, but it is there.

Some feminists in the West want women to join in combat alongside men, drafts to be abolished, men to reject masculinity but I hear people worry that while the West 'weakens' itself with trying to be to egalitarian at the expense of common sense, traditional societies are growing their populations and improving their young people will common sense approaches to a future progressive society that still preserve gender roles.

So, if god forbids, Trump joins with liberal Western Europe in a war against Saudi Arabia and the Muslim world with Russia joining in, will our molycoddled young soliders lose?

donvito99

jeanjolie wrote: »

So, if god forbids, Trump joins with liberal Western Europe in a war against Saudi Arabia and the Muslim world with Russia joining in, will our molycoddled young soliders lose?

What

Ubbquittious

I just refuse to pay heed to the feminist narrative and encourage others to do the same. Ignore it and it twill die.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pretty much everything becomes undone in the next world war, feminism included.

jeanjolie wrote: »

So, if god forbids, Trump joins with liberal Western Europe in a war against Saudi Arabia and the Muslim world with Russia joining in, will our molycoddled young soliders lose?

If, by soldiers, you mean ground/air/sea forces, then yes. They'll be nuked. And no about of (whatever the opposite of molycoddling is) is going to save them.

messy tessy

jeanjolie wrote: »

I know you guys hate gender threads on After Hours

And yet somehow here we are again

tomwaterford

jeanjolie wrote: »

Some feminists in the West want women to join in combat alongside men, /quote]

Taught this was already the case?

Sofiztikated

Lads, it's a Bank Holiday.

Can we leave the pseudo intellectual bull**** for another day?

Arghus

Yeah, makes sense.

WoollyRedHat

I prefer my wars to have no narratives tbh.. just lots of shooting, explosions and dashes for enemy lines. None of this sentimental storytelling thank you very much.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I just refuse to pay heed to the feminist narrative and encourage others to do the same. Ignore it and it twill die.

The irony of giving a Feminist movement the Silent Treatment...

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

lazybones32

The next world war will knock away all the foolishness we've allowed to distract us.

Black, white, gay, trans, straight, left, right aint gonna matter a sheet when the next global conflict occurs.

troyzer

The Red Army had close to a million women serving in the Great Patriotic War. I don't think you could describe the Red Army as molly coddled. 

I fundamentally don't accept the OP's premise that allowing women into the armed services somehow undermines its fighting ability. As long as they're able to pass the same fitness tests as men, there really isn't an issue. You might have had a point 2,000 years ago when unit cohesion and physical strength were paramount but we don't live in that world anymore. The best soldiers are ones who use their head.

Victor

There is a vast amount of opinion and hypothesis in your post that you are pretending to be factual.

jeanjolie wrote: »

will our molycoddled young soliders lose?

Soldiers are invariably the ones that suffer.

What makes you think they are mollycoddled?

Junkyard Tom

Where does this mish-mash of cobbled-together nonsensical bullshit come from?

lazybones32

troyzer wrote: »

The Red Army had close to a million women serving in the Great Patriotic War. I don't think you could describe the Red Army as molly coddled. 

I fundamentally don't accept the OP's premise that allowing women into the armed services somehow undermines its fighting ability. As long as they're able to pass the same fitness tests as men, there really isn't an issue. You might have had a point 2,000 years ago when unit cohesion and physical strength were paramount but we don't live in that world anymore. The best soldiers are ones who use their head.

They also had female-only battalions who ran away screaming and crying from the lines.

A buddy was in the army and said the girls would complain of period pains and be left off drills/duties. Thank God Ireland doesn't need an army.

lazybones32

Victor wrote: »

There is a vast amount of opinion and hypothesis in your post that you are pretending to be factual.
Soldiers are invariably the ones that suffer.

What makes you think they are mollycoddled?

According to Hillary Clinton, it is women who are the primary casualties of war. If she daid it, it must be true.

BeerFarts

Where are the lizard people while all this is going down?

troyzer

lazybones32 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

The Red Army had close to a million women serving in the Great Patriotic War. I don't think you could describe the Red Army as molly coddled. 

I fundamentally don't accept the OP's premise that allowing women into the armed services somehow undermines its fighting ability. As long as they're able to pass the same fitness tests as men, there really isn't an issue. You might have had a point 2,000 years ago when unit cohesion and physical strength were paramount but we don't live in that world anymore. The best soldiers are ones who use their head.

They also had female-only battalions who ran away screaming and crying from the lines.

A buddy was in the army and said the girls would complain of period pains and be left off drills/duties. Thank God Ireland doesn't need an army.

You think there weren't all male battalions who **** their pants at the Blitzkrieg onslaught? Not a chance. I agree on the second point though, if women are getting off drill duty because of period pain then they need a kick up the arse. If you meet the standards, let anyone in. But I agree, you shouldn't lower your standards as means to allowing women in.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Will someone put parental controls on that young fellas wifi quick

B.A._Baracus

There's one problem with feminism.... and that it's all bollocks
On paper, who wouldnt support feminism? I mean equal rights for everyone. Sounds fair right? problem is feminism is about the individual.

By that I mean so many moan about things over here and the west in general. But hold on, what about the middle-east and the like? where women are being treated bad. You never hear about western-feminists trying to come together to sort that sh*t out. No no. why should they? that's a different country. Who cares. So little miss suzie-feminist moans about "things" that effect her. Even if in actual fact there is nothing there. It's easy to moan why you aren't on 50k a year because of "men" when in actual fact you never went to college and knuckled down to achieve that.

So with that said, if there was a next world war watch as certain feminists would sing a different tune. It' about the individual. Who'd want to be on the front lines or in some sh*t storm of a conflict?
It's like a cruise ship and it's being sunk. Then the captain says "Women and children first on the life boats!" - How many feminists would stop and say "that's not fair!" - none. Point is feminism depends on what side of the situation you are on.

daisybun

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

There's one problem with feminism.... and that it's all bollocks
On paper, who wouldnt support feminism? I mean equal rights for everyone. Sounds fair right? problem is feminism is about the individual.

By that I mean so many moan about things over here and the west in general. But hold on, what about the middle-east and the like? where women are being treated bad. You never hear about western-feminists trying to come together to sort that sh*t out. No no. why should they? that's a different country. Who cares. So little miss suzie-feminist moans about "things" that effect her. Even if in actual fact there is nothing there. It's easy to moan why you aren't on 50k a year because of "men" when in actual fact you never went to college and knuckled down to achieve that.
So with that said, if there was a next world war watch as certain feminists would sing a different tune. It' about the individual. Who'd want to be on the front lines or in some sh*t storm of a conflict?
It's like a cruise ship and it's being sunk. Then the captain says "Women and children first on the life boats!" - How many feminists would stop and say "that's not fair!" - none. Point is feminism depends on what side of the situation you are on.

Are you for real?? Women are discriminated against because they don't "knuckle down"?? Jesus Christ I've heard it all now. Oh and welcome to Boards Kevin, I guess you really do need an outlet for your writing now that you're unemployed...

B.A._Baracus

daisybun wrote: »

Are you for real?? Women are discriminated against because they don't "knuckle down"?? Jesus Christ I've heard it all now. Oh and welcome to Boards Kevin, I guess you really do need an outlet for your writing now that you're unemployed...

Don't get your kevin reference

and yes there are woman out there who feel they are being held down despite not actually trying to better themselves. Life isn't fair. Life isn't easy. But it's easy to blame things than just deal with it and get on.

But a question to you... why are women still being treated bad in parts of the world? why is this still acceptable in this day in age. How come anything I read about feminism always refers to them.... and usually in the west. Why haven't women come together to help women all around the world? (you didn't touch upon that in your reply did you )

daisybun

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Don't get your kevin reference

and yes there are woman out there who feel they are being held down despite not actually trying to better themselves. Life isn't fair. Life isn't easy. But it's easy to blame things than just deal with it and get on.

But a question to you... why are women still being treated bad in parts of the world? why is this still acceptable in this day in age. How come anything I read about feminism always refers to them.... and usually in the west. Why haven't women come together to help women all around the world? (you didn't touch upon that in your reply did you )

It's absolutely wonderful that you are so concerned with the plight of women in the Middle East. So many people are only concerned with them in so far as it allows them to indulge in whataboutery whenever an uppity western woman dares to suggest that the status quo is not ok in the country she lives in so fair play to you for being so overly concerned about them.
Sarcasm aside, it may come as a shock to you but it is possible to be concerned with the way that women are treated and/or perceived in western countries as well as taking issue with women's rights in more backwards countries. I know,mad, is t it??? Being able to see a bigger picture that allows for varying levels of sexism and misogyny?! Where will the madness end!

Oh, and the Kevin reference is about kevin Myers. The latest iteration in a long line of men with a public platform who feel it necessary to strut about whingeing about women that don't know their place.

B.A._Baracus

daisybun wrote: »

It's absolutely wonderful that you are so concerned with the plight of women in the Middle East. So many people are only concerned with them in so far as it allows them to indulge in whataboutery whenever an uppity western woman dares to suggest that the status quo is not ok in the country she lives in so fair play to you for being so overly concerned about them.
Sarcasm aside, it may come as a shock to you but it is possible to be concerned with the way that women are treated and/or perceived in western countries as well as taking issue with women's rights in more backwards countries. I know,mad, is t it??? Being able to see a bigger picture that allows for varying levels of sexism and misogyny?! Where will the madness end!

Oh, and the Kevin reference is about kevin Myers. The latest iteration in a long line of men with a public platform who feel it necessary to strut about whingeing about women that don't know their place.

Had no idea of that Kevin fellow actually.

So... what are these western feminists doing about the whole thing tho.
Also I'd like to know whos holding you back? :pac:

Because give me one time in your life, over here, that you were held back for being a woman. Like yes, we could go back 50 years and things were different back then. But let's talk about now. Let's talk about you as a woman presumably living in Ireland. Who has held you back? Not what you may have read online about women holding you back etc. But you.

somefeen

Well if the concept of treating people fairly and equally gets undone in the next war then I guess the good guys lost.

daisybun

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Had no idea of that Kevin fellow actually.

So... what are these western feminists doing about the whole thing tho.
Also I'd like to know whos holding you back? :pac:

Because give me one time in your life, over here, that you were held back for being a woman. Like yes, we could go back 50 years and things were different back then. But let's talk about now. Let's talk about you as a woman presumably living in Ireland. Who has held you back? Not what you may have read online about women holding you back etc. But you.

I have plenty, both work related and personal, none of which I have any intention of sharing with you. Best of luck with your campaigning for the women of Saudi Arabia however, I hope your awareness/ fund raising/ whatever goes well for you.

wes

Last I checked men aren't immune to nuclear weapons, so male or female, we will all be vaporized the same, if we are lucky that is. Poor bastards who live will not have a good time at all.

B.A._Baracus

daisybun wrote: »

I have plenty, both work related and personal, none of which I have any intention of sharing with you. Best of luck with your campaigning for the women of Saudi Arabia however, I hope your awareness/ fund raising/ whatever goes well for you.

In other words you have none
Any person with a genuine experience would post their experience to shut me up and put me in "my place" ... citing how much I was wrong because XYZ happened to them etc.

Keep on truckin' darling. You're not working me

daisybun

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

In other words you have none
Any person with a genuine experience would post their experience to shut me up and put me in "my place" ... citing how much I was wrong because XYZ happened to them etc.

Keep on truckin' darling. You're not working me

The vast irony in a man telling me that my experiences of sexism didn't happen because he didn't authenticate them is beyond hilarious.
Thanks "darling" for the laugh.

Victor

daisybun wrote: »

It's absolutely wonderful that you are so concerned with the plight of women in the Middle East. So many people are only concerned with them in so far as it allows them to indulge in whataboutery whenever an uppity western woman dares to suggest that the status quo is not ok in the country she lives in so fair play to you for being so overly concerned about them.

Also used to bash Middle Eastern men (whatever level of justification there may be to bash some of them).

Adamocovic

...back to bed

Grayson

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

There's one problem with feminism.... and that it's all bollocks
On paper, who wouldnt support feminism? I mean equal rights for everyone. Sounds fair right? problem is feminism is about the individual.

By that I mean so many moan about things over here and the west in general. But hold on, what about the middle-east and the like? where women are being treated bad. You never hear about western-feminists trying to come together to sort that sh*t out. No no. why should they? that's a different country. Who cares. So little miss suzie-feminist moans about "things" that effect her. Even if in actual fact there is nothing there. It's easy to moan why you aren't on 50k a year because of "men" when in actual fact you never went to college and knuckled down to achieve that.

So with that said, if there was a next world war watch as certain feminists would sing a different tune. It' about the individual. Who'd want to be on the front lines or in some sh*t storm of a conflict?
It's like a cruise ship and it's being sunk. Then the captain says "Women and children first on the life boats!" - How many feminists would stop and say "that's not fair!" - none. Point is feminism depends on what side of the situation you are on.

By that standard if you talk about homelessness here you're a dick if you're not always talking about it abroad.

lazybones32

lazybones32 wrote: »

The next world war will knock away all the foolishness we've allowed to distract us.

Black, white, gay, trans, straight, left, right aint gonna matter a sheet when the next global conflict occurs.

When resources of energy, land, protein, clean water etc. begin to run out, all this sort of stuff is going to look so luxurious to have ever cared about.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

When resources of energy, land, protein, clean water etc. begin to run out, all this sort of stuff is going to look so luxurious to have ever cared about.

Not sure I get the connection.

We're out of meat. Homosexuality is now a luxury.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure I get the connection.

We're out of meat. Homosexuality is now a luxury.

Or, We're out of meat, stop women from working.

hairyslug

I watched Starship troopers last night, highly recommended, 7 stars

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure I get the connection.

We're out of meat. Homosexuality is now a luxury.

Grayson wrote: »

Or, We're out of meat, stop women from working.

We might not live to see it but there will be war in the future over protein. When fossil fuels run out, farming as it done at current scales worldwide wont be possible. Meanwhile you have billions of people either eating or demanding to eat lots of meat in their diet because it is what they are used to or what they associate with success or luxury, while meat is way more energy-expensive to produce than crops (hence why I said "protein" instead of just "food). We nowadays eat over 100 kg meat on average per year. It's not that long ago since the average was wayyyy lower, like 15 kg maybe (a bit over half a pound a week each). And to provide such levels of meat as are presently demanded, farming conditions around the world are already required to be brutal for the wellbeing of the animals, so this sort of farming would be required to be expanded to meet demand.

My point was that in the context of wars over food resources, issues such LGBT concerns would take a back seat - they are the sorts of issues that societies at large only really think about when material conditions are secure. Same as environmental concerns like carbon footprint etc.

Also at some point in the future, women will probably be required to return to agricultural work along with men since there wont be any fuel for agricultural machinery to do the work instead.

jeanjolie

Deleted User wrote: »

We might not live to see it but there will be war in the future over protein. When fossil fuels run out, farming as it done at current scales worldwide wont be possible. Meanwhile you have billions of people either eating or demanding to eat lots of meat in their diet because it is what they are used to or what they associate with success or luxury, while meat is way more energy-expensive to produce than crops (hence why I said "protein" instead of just "food). We nowadays eat over 100 kg meat on average per year. It's not that long ago since the average was wayyyy lower, like 15 kg maybe (a bit over half a pound a week each). And to provide such levels of meat as are presently demanded, farming conditions around the world are already required to be brutal for the wellbeing of the animals, so this sort of farming would be required to be expanded to meet demand.

My point was that in the context of wars over food resources, issues such LGBT concerns would take a back seat - they are the sorts of issues that societies at large only really think about when material conditions are secure. Same as environmental concerns like carbon footprint etc.

Also at some point in the future, women will probably be required to return to agricultural work along with men since there wont be any fuel for agricultural machinery to do the work instead.

Unless of course genetic engineering becomes a thing. Perhaps we could make people who are able to survive on a vegan diet.

jeanjolie

jeanjolie wrote: »

Unless of course genetic engineering becomes a thing. Perhaps we could make people who are able to survive on a vegan diet.

That's a great point actually. If we are going to engage in genetic engineering then being able to get "more" out of less protein would be a great characteristic to give people.

...I suppose this is all a tangent to the threads subject though!

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

daisybun wrote: »

I have plenty, both work related and personal, none of which I have any intention of sharing with you. Best of luck with your campaigning for the women of Saudi Arabia however, I hope your awareness/ fund raising/ whatever goes well for you.

Sucks to be you then I guess, I've never felt my gender has held me back in any way shape or form. Decisions I've made has held me back, but then again I expect to be treated equally and that means I don't expect to be treated based on my gender. I would be ashamed of my life if I was ever accused of being a feminist because the feminists we have nowadays have made a mockery of what is should mean to be a feminist

Atoms for Peace

The Soviets had the night witches, an all female regiment that the Germans feared.

/en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Witches

dudara

I'm probay going to regret this, but what's this "feminist narrative" when it's at home now?

The_Captain

Grayson wrote: »

By that standard if you talk about homelessness here you're a dick if you're not always talking about it abroad.

It's not really a good analogy though because women aren't being put to death for the crime of being raped in Ireland.

Alun

dudara wrote: »

I'm probay going to regret this, but what's this "feminist narrative" when it's at home now?

It's something that exists only either in Facebook and Twitter land or in academia and has nothing to do with the real world most of us inhabit at all.

osarusan

Grayson wrote: »

By that standard if you talk about homelessness here you're a dick if you're not always talking about it abroad.

The 'if you really care about X, they why aren't you campaigning about places where it's much worse than Ireland, huh?' is a retarded argument, completely empty.

It could be applied to literally anything anybody campaigns for in Ireland, unless Ireland is actually the most extreme example of that issue in the whole world.

PopePalpatine

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Where does this mish-mash of cobbled-together nonsensical bullshit come from?

4chins and real-life Dennis Reynolds types.

Silver Lynel

Grayson wrote: »

By that standard if you talk about homelessness here you're a dick if you're not always talking about it abroad.

In the context of Feminism, I disagree.

Let's say we had a concept called "Homeism" and our definition was "Homeism is the belief that all human beings should have a roof over their heads and a safe place to sleep at night".

Let's say the stated goal of "Homeism" was to eradicate homelessness, just as the stated goal of Feminism is to eradicate gender inequality.

Now let's say that there are a bunch of "Homeinists" who don't actually do anything to solve the homelessness problem. Instead they complain constantly because they can't get a big house in a nice area for a low price. That would be your equivalent of modern, first world, Feminism.

In my opinion there is a MASSIVE difference between a Feminist who complains all day about there not being enough female superhero movies and a Feminist who campaigns to improve the lives of women in nations where they are genuinely treated like second class citizens.

Not to say that representation in media isn't important, it is. However, it seems like a Feminist who complains about Western popular culture while women are treated terribly in other parts of the world is a bit of a lazy Feminist.

If you believe that certain countries in the world need Feminism and need raised awareness and need better activism then surely you can see that taking up bandwidth with complaints about Manspreading and Mansplaining is counter productive and probably damaging to the movement.

Silver Lynel

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure I get the connection.

We're out of meat. Homosexuality is now a luxury.

I think the point was that if people are murdering each other over resources then there won't be too much time to sit down and discuss the finer points of human sexuality.

Yeah, I know our city has been bombed into oblivion and troops are moving through the city rounding up survivors but can we just take a moment here to talk about my preferred pronouns?

Cubik

I have never experienced obstacles due to being female either. I think B.A. just means the women who blame difficulties in life on men/being a woman should take responsibility for themselves - I don't think he is talking about all women. This applies in numerous contexts - some people would blame utterly anyone or anything for what's wrong in their lives, instead of focusing on what they have done or can do themselves.

As for women in the Middle East - I think the reason the topic is brought up is because some women in the west pretend their lives are as hard or nearly as hard. When The Handmaid's Tale TV series was being discussed a lot on Twitter, women were actually saying it was close to real life. Here I am with my job, my own property, my own car, my own bank accounts, my registration to vote, my pretty extensive education, access to contraception, my scope to do anything I want (within reason) and life is nearly like The Handmaid's Tale?

And then there are women and girls in rural Afghanistan who are "exiled" to a cave miles from their home every month, because the time of blood means they're unclean to be near. If they have children, the children must go with them. It's actually insulting to those women and girls when it's said life can be horrendously oppressive for women here.

Now there is misogyny for sure (among a minority but it's still there) however screaming about how awful men are (which is what much of extreme modern feminism is)... that is not going to change the attitudes of misogynists, it's just going to make them even more determined to feel how they feel about women.

Silver Lynel

Cubik wrote: »

As for women in the Middle East - I think the reason the topic is brought up is because some women in the west pretend their lives are as hard or nearly as hard. When The Handmaid's Tale TV series was being discussed a lot on Twitter, women were actually saying it was close to real life. Here I am with my job, my own property, my own car, my own bank accounts, my registration to vote, my pretty extensive education, access to contraception, my scope to do anything I want (within reason) and life is nearly like The Handmaid's Tale?

I think maybe we have been conditioned to feel like there is some virtue in victimhood?

If you are living well and earning and buying nice things for yourself then it's undeniable that your success comes at the expense of others. The "others" could be the homeless sleeping in Dublin streets or kids working in cobalt mines in Congo or the women that you mentioned sent to live in caves in Afghanistan.

We are doing well in life and they are living in misery.

So there is a certain degree of guilt that must come with that and a lot of people maybe deal with it by putting up the defense that "my life is bad too"?

Play the victim on Facebook and Twitter and the attention will come rolling in. Your comment or your story might even go viral. Imagine that.

Bragging about your nice house or your nice car is seen as showing off your "privilege" and it seems like this is increasingly becoming a big no-no.

So instead people turn to boasting about their struggles instead.