Deputy Principal Position

Werty00 · 04-08-2017 12:57pm #1

Hi All,

Long-term lurker, new poster! A DP position has been advertised in a school not far from me. Just wondering what the application rate is for DP posts; I know a few years ago it was hard to fill them, but have things changed? Is there a lot of competition? Also, I'm young and not sure would this go against me, although I have good and varied experience. Wondering really is it worth my while applying? Thanks!

Mardy Bum · 04-08-2017 1:19pm

Werty00 wrote: »

Hi All,

Long-term lurker, new poster! A DP position has been advertised in a school not far from me. Just wondering what the application rate is for DP posts; I know a few years ago it was hard to fill them, but have things changed? Is there a lot of competition? Also, I'm young and not sure would this go against me, although I have good and varied experience. Wondering really is it worth my while applying? Thanks!

Do you have a master's in school leadership? You need this for most positions and especially if you are young.

Werty00 · 04-08-2017 4:25pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Do you have a master's in school leadership? You need this for most positions and especially if you are young.

I do have both an M. Ed and a Postgrad Dip in Leadership, but I've never had a post of responsibility (mainly due to the fact that these posts were not advertised during my time spent in school). Thanks!

judeboy101 · 04-08-2017 7:02pm

Werty00 wrote: »

I do have both an M. Ed and a Postgrad Dip in Leadership, but I've never had a post of responsibility (mainly due to the fact that these posts were not advertised during my time spent in school). Thanks!

Check out lay of land, you could end up in a dp position with an impotent principal and you doing the job of 2.

TheDriver · 05-08-2017 2:29pm

You don't need to be in a post and the MEd is only a recommendation but not a requirement. Always check out the politics of the school and also if its financially worth getting it. Get help from someone already through the interview process, you'd be surprised how complex it is and practice will get you through it well.

Werty00 · 05-08-2017 9:39pm

TheDriver wrote: »

You don't need to be in a post and the MEd is only a recommendation but not a requirement. Always check out the politics of the school and also if its financially worth getting it. Get help from someone already through the interview process, you'd be surprised how complex it is and practice will get you through it well.

Thanks to all for the advice so far. Financially for me, it would be worth it, not by a huge amount but still significant. If I do get called for interview, I plan on getting some interview coaching but am not sure if it would be better to go through a professional careers service or to try and contact former principals and ask them?

TheDriver · 05-08-2017 9:55pm

The latter. Anyone I know who did the former was not as well prepared and cost quite a bit

doc_17 · 06-08-2017 2:31pm

Recently a school had a DP job going and the short listing process required a Masters to be called for interview.

mengele · 06-08-2017 2:52pm

TheDriver wrote: »

You don't need to be in a post and the MEd is only a recommendation but not a requirement. Always check out the politics of the school and also if its financially worth getting it. Get help from someone already through the interview process, you'd be surprised how complex it is and practice will get you through it well.

In the long term is it better to do a Master's in School Leadership or a Masters of Education when going for deputy roles?

TheDriver · 06-08-2017 4:58pm

mengele wrote: »

In the long term is it better to do a Master's in School Leadership or a Masters of Education when going for deputy roles?

Yes but its the first time I have seen it as a requirement. Obviously majority of candidates had it. For DP and P roles, I wouldn't be shortlisting on these things but prefer to meet everyone to get a good idea of who would suit the role best. A Masters might mean the best person for the job long term is excluded.

mengele · 06-08-2017 6:25pm

TheDriver wrote: »

Yes but its the first time I have seen it as a requirement. Obviously majority of candidates had it. For DP and P roles, I wouldn't be shortlisting on these things but prefer to meet everyone to get a good idea of who would suit the role best. A Masters might mean the best person for the job long term is excluded.

Sorry I meant to ask which of those Masters would be seen as the better one to have if going for that role?

TheDriver · 06-08-2017 6:49pm

Oh a masters in school leadership as an MEd will be standard Dip soon and could also involve any area of expertise.

fall · 06-08-2017 7:11pm

I know someone who recently got a deputy principal position with no management course and they only had an A post six months. It wasn't even in their own school and they are mid thirties so apply anyway, it can't do any harm. I don't think it matters if it's a masters or diploma once it's in educational leadership or management. I got my position and I had completed the Toraiocht course which is a diploma.

mengele · 06-08-2017 8:47pm

TheDriver wrote: »

Oh a masters in school leadership as an MEd will be standard Dip soon and could also involve any area of expertise.

Thanks. So what do people who do Masters of Education hope to do after they have it? To go work for the department/College?

Obviously they could still stay teaching but what other avenues would it open up?

TheDriver · 06-08-2017 9:24pm

Every new "dip" is an MEd. For elective MEd, most do it forinterest and looks good on cv for promotional posts or roles in other areas such as ncca or sec

r93kaey5p2izun · 06-08-2017 9:41pm

I personally don't have any interest in, or experience of, applying for DP but many of my colleagues are applying over the past year or so (several have been successful) and there is constant talk about it in work. They see the "winning combination" in our own ETB as being MEd as well as a leadership qualification, whether diploma or masters. They report a strong emphasis on leading the learning and therefore MEd research qualifications. Those we know with only leadership qualifications have not been successful. There are no DPs or principals in any of our schools without a masters though.

mirrorwall14 · 06-08-2017 9:45pm

The constant stream of people doing masters in leadership which involve them doing initiatives in staffrooms is driving me a little nuts

mengele · 06-08-2017 9:55pm

TheDriver wrote: »

Every new "dip" is an MEd. For elective MEd, most do it forinterest and looks good on cv for promotional posts or roles in other areas such as ncca or sec

I was under the impression that every new dip was PME Professional Masters in Education and that the MEd is a Masters of Education or are they really just both the same thing with different names?

ethical · 06-08-2017 10:34pm

Surely a "hyped -up 2 yr dip " is no where near Masters level!

ethical · 06-08-2017 10:41pm

I would agree that there are quite a few teachers part taking in Masters studies,remember there is no extra money for this since we sold out to the Bankers!

Some Etbs (especially) are hell bent on "giving" P and DP posts to younger and younger candidates who may have the studies done but have NIL experience of dealing with students and parents in the real world and I know of quite a few instances where schools are faring badly,infact ,anarchy and breakdown in some cases.........."everyone wants the job but no one wants to do the work"!

thefasteriwalk · 07-08-2017 9:35am

Santos Future Wolverine wrote: »

I personally don't have any interest in, or experience of, applying for DP but many of my colleagues are applying over the past year or so (several have been successful) and there is constant talk about it in work. They see the "winning combination" in our own ETB as being MEd as well as a leadership qualification, whether diploma or masters. They report a strong emphasis on leading the learning and therefore MEd research qualifications. Those we know with only leadership qualifications have not been successful. There are no DPs or principals in any of our schools without a masters though.

That's interesting. I think ours is going the same way. My colleague has just been appointed as DP without a post or any leadership qualifications, but she's moving from ETB to voluntary.

Mardy Bum · 07-08-2017 3:41pm

ethical wrote: »

I would agree that there are quite a few teachers part taking in Masters studies,remember there is no extra money for this since we sold out to the Bankers!

Some Etbs (especially) are hell bent on "giving" P and DP posts to younger and younger candidates who may have the studies done but have NIL experience of dealing with students and parents in the real world and I know of quite a few instances where schools are faring badly,infact ,anarchy and breakdown in some cases.........."everyone wants the job but no one wants to do the work"!

This is more to do with pull than them having qualifications.

evolving_doors · 07-08-2017 4:33pm

mengele wrote: »

I was under the impression that every new dip was PME Professional Masters in Education and that the MEd is a Masters of Education or are they really just both the same thing with different names?

They're different... by a few thousand words and the type of research which can be undertaken for the dissertation/thesis.

Crazyteacher · 07-08-2017 6:01pm

I would consider the MEd to be a more advanced qualification than the PME. Not saying it's the exact same level as the PGDE\Hdip as it has a research component. But it is still under the MEd.

evolving_doors · 07-08-2017 11:03pm

I wonder will the MEd die out due to lack of demand.
The only post PME level 9 qualification left will be MEd in Leadership and Management. Maybe there'll be other specialised ones for people staying within 3Rd level academia.

chases0102 · 08-08-2017 2:00am

For anyone aspiring to a DP or P role in future, the paucity of A Posts becoming available in some schools will damage their credentials - is there a way of getting around this? Would any informal 'initiative leading' be of any use to them when applying?

TheDriver · 08-08-2017 10:02am

A way around this is to ensure you have plenty of "leading" in other areas e.g. GAA club chairperson, youth leader in scouts etc etc

pandoraj09 · 08-08-2017 5:35pm

TheDriver wrote: »

A way around this is to ensure you have plenty of "leading" in other areas e.g. GAA club chairperson, youth leader in scouts etc etc

Yes but what do you put on the part of the Application Form that asks you to list the extra qualifications you have in leadership...? I've a degree and a Dip and 30 years experience. I was Captain of a big sports club and I have other non-academic leadership experience...But I'd have to leave that part of the Application form blank and that obviously looks terrible...

r93kaey5p2izun · 08-08-2017 5:46pm

chases0102 wrote: »

For anyone aspiring to a DP or P role in future, the paucity of A Posts becoming available in some schools will damage their credentials - is there a way of getting around this? Would any informal 'initiative leading' be of any use to them when applying?

I think 11 of my colleagues have become DPs over the past 18 months or so. Only two had posts - one an A post and one a B post. All were/had been year heads though, and most had done other leadership roles such as TY coordinator, DEIS coordinator. The people getting the jobs have done the work for free.

ethical · 08-08-2017 8:52pm

I say SHAME ON THEM!,DOING THE WORK FOR NOTHING,Thats why the teaching profession has gone the way it has!! Arse-licking and mé féinism!! It saddens me to look around the many classrooms and see"wet sheets of paper,because thats all they are with no personality and damn all else but "Yes people"..................the profession is getting what it deserves and we will be soon like the UK!

Notorious · 08-08-2017 10:19pm

Santos Future Wolverine wrote: »

...The people getting the jobs have done the work for free.

The union are calling for members to blow whistles on any of this happening. I get that people are happy to do the work for free to gain experience or promotion opportunities. Though with the supposed reintroduction of A posts to schools, this might not be an issue for much longer.

Mardy Bum · 08-08-2017 10:31pm

Notorious wrote: »

The union are calling for members to blow whistles on any of this happening. I get that people are happy to do the work for free to gain experience or promotion opportunities. Though with the supposed reintroduction of A posts to schools, this might not be an issue for much longer.

I thought it was mainly b posts.

fall · 09-08-2017 11:25am

There are new posts on the way called AP 1 And AP 2. Circular should be out in the first term. They are especially trying to target schools that haven't benefited from additional deputy principal positions so between four and seven hundred students is where the greatest alleviation is expected.

judeboy101 · 09-08-2017 11:38am

fall wrote: »

There are new posts on the way called AP 1 And AP 2. Circular should be out in the first term. They are especially trying to target schools that haven't benefited from additional deputy principal positions so between four and seven hundred students is where the greatest alleviation is expected.

I'm sure the same terms,conditions and pay will apply to ap1/2 as does to the current post structure lol

fall · 09-08-2017 11:53am

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case but I would also say there will be more work attached to the roles!

Mardy Bum · 10-08-2017 9:21am

fall wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case but I would also say there will be more work attached to the roles!

Some schools already have a lot of work attached. Some have next to nothing. It all depends on the school.

fall · 10-08-2017 4:35pm

I think all schools have posts with work attached. Don't know of any that have posts with no work attached?

judeboy101 · 10-08-2017 4:47pm

fall wrote: »

I think all schools have posts with work attached. Don't know of any that have posts with no work attached?

I know of two schools that have b posts called AV co-coordinator. Neither has any tellys. Projectors and language lab are IT mans job. Lol

fall · 10-08-2017 4:53pm

I am sure though there are people in those schools who have posts that actually have duties. I know the posts may have been abused by some but not all.

ethical · 10-08-2017 5:01pm

I know a school where posts were "held back" for a number of teachers and every rule in the book re equality,gender,time of post advertisement,grooming etc and the respective unions did sweet fa about it. The Union had a token yes man sit in on appeal but thats all it was,get over it and move on! sort of thing.So yes corruption is never far away and then it rears its ugly head and affects other innocent staff members later on when "things " start going belly up! Work load is chronic in some schools while there are a few chosen ones in some other schools that get the money but do damn all for it.

r93kaey5p2izun · 10-08-2017 5:09pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

I know of two schools that have b posts called AV co-coordinator. Neither has any tellys. Projectors and language lab are IT mans job. Lol

There are some issues around this in my school but it's nothing to do with the work ethic or capabilities of the post holders concerned. Many have had their duties taken away and given to the people who do it for free. They are given pointless mickeymouse things to do while the real influence is transferred to a select group and post holders are undermined and ignored.

From the outside, and particularly if you listened to this little group complain, it might appear that we have lazy post holders getting away with money for nothing.

judeboy101 · 10-08-2017 5:34pm

ethical wrote: »

I know a school where posts were "held back" for a number of teachers and every rule in the book re equality,gender,time of post advertisement,grooming etc and the respective unions did sweet fa about it. The Union had a token yes man sit in on appeal but thats all it was,get over it and move on! sort of thing.So yes corruption is never far away and then it rears its ugly head and affects other innocent staff members later on when "things " start going belly up! Work load is chronic in some schools while there are a few chosen ones in some other schools that get the money but do damn all for it.

Grooming? The sexual or facial kind?

Deputy Principal Position

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