tenants working as a beauty therapist in house

Bridget1996

Hi


Firstly I have no probs with my tenant, they are great, keep house clean and pay rent on time, but they txted asking could we replace carpets, we said we would get them cleaned for her, then I see up on face book that she is working offering waxes and stuff,

Just to state I know it is in the house as I txted asking for an appointment, she doesnt know me, deals with my husband, and she told me to come to house for appointment.

Is this allowed,
What are my rights/ there rights

Im abit annoyed as she said she wanted new carpets as she was worried bout her kid crawling on them, then I see this ad, is it for her clients more so

Opinions please

Askthe EA

Bridget1996 wrote: »

Hi


Firstly I have no probs with my tenant, they are great, keep house clean and pay rent on time, but they txted asking could we replace carpets, we said we would get them cleaned for her, then I see up on face book that she is working offering waxes and stuff,

Just to state I know it is in the house as I txted asking for an appointment, she doesnt know me, deals with my husband, and she told me to come to house for appointment.

Is this allowed,
What are my rights/ there rights

Im abit annoyed as she said she wanted new carpets as she was worried bout her kid crawling on them, then I see this ad, is it for her clients more so

Opinions please

Absolutely not!!!! If a person is running a business out of your property, it could have an effect on your house insurance. Secondly, they should be paying rates which I guarantee you they are not. Thirdly, they are bringing a ton of extra wear and tear into the house.

Id nip that in the bud asap. Its bound to contravene the terms of the lease.

Samuel T. Cogley

Live and let live if she's paying the rent. Flag (unofficially) it with her and tell her given people are traipsing in and out she'll need to meet the cost of having the carpets cleaned.

Ask her if she has the proper insurance - speak to a professional about the upshot of relying on an affirmative answer to that.

Victor

Is there planning permission for this?

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

Samuel T. Cogley

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Possibly, so draw your own conclusion from that and that I'd be very slow to stop anything that was a revenue stream for the renter, given how easy it is to stay put for 18+ months and pay feck all.

Askthe EA

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

given how easy it is to stay put for 18+ months and pay feck all.

And here in lies the biggest issue for LLs in the current market.

Sue Pa Key Pa

It doesn't matter is she has appropriate insurance for her business, as someone mentioned earlier, you would be in breech of the terms and conditions of your own policy and it could be voided

Bridget1996

Im still raging, my husband is happy enough to say nothing, but my fear is what if something happens for example some trips down the stairs who is responible for that........for now I will get the carpet cleaned.......

Askthe EA

Bridget1996 wrote: »

Im still raging, my husband is happy enough to say nothing, but my fear is what if something happens for example some trips down the stairs who is responible for that........for now I will get the carpet cleaned.......

I would highly advise not turning a blind eye.

Miaireland

You need to find out how this impacts on your insurance. If something happens it could end up costing you.

awec

Is there any official definition of what constitutes business use?

Like if someone rents an apartment and works from home as a freelance IT person, does this constitute business use? I am pretty sure it doesn't, but wondering if there's something official here.

conorhal

Bridget1996 wrote: »

Im still raging, my husband is happy enough to say nothing, but my fear is what if something happens for example some trips down the stairs who is responible for that........for now I will get the carpet cleaned.......

I'm baffled as to why you'd get the carpet cleaned, if the oven is dirty would you clean that also? It's the responsibility of the tennent to ensure that they clean any mess they make beyond reasonable wear and tear. As far as I'm concerned if you make a mess you clean up your own mess, it's beyond cheeky to demand a landlord clean carpets when the tennent is the one tracking dirt into them. If the carpets were in good condition when the tenent moved in then I'd inform them you'll be inspecting the apartment to assess the state of them.

awec

conorhal wrote: »

I'm baffled as to why you'd get the carpet cleaned, if the oven is dirty would you clean that also? It's the responsibility of the tennent to ensure that they clean any mess they make beyond reasonable wear and tear. As far as I'm concerned if you make a mess you clean up your own mess, it's beyond cheeky to demand a landlord clean carpets when the tennent is the one tracking dirt into them. If the carpets were in good condition when the tenent moved in then I'd inform them you'll be inspecting the apartment to assess the state of them.

The tenant asked for them to be replaced, not cleaned, which suggests they may be well worn.

The fact the landlord isn't pushing back on this too much and offered to clean them would also suggest that the carpets are a good age. Carpets starting to show their age is normal wear and tear and it's up to the landlord to sort that. No matter if the tenant hoovers every day the carpets will still degrade over time. So long as it's all normal wear and tear that's fair enough, if they are spilling wax and all sorts of gunk all over them that's a different story.

Same as the walls really, you would hardly expect a tenant to paint the walls if they are starting to show their age.

neonsofa

awec wrote: »

Same as the walls really, you would hardly expect a tenant to paint the walls if they are starting to show their age.

As a tenant, I've painted many a wall, with landlords permission obviously. Bought the paint myself too. It may not be my responsibility/obligation or what have you, but I wouldn't think it's weird to expect a tenant might keep them fresh if remaining in the property long term. Especially if it's her business premises :pac:

awec

neonsofa wrote: »

As a tenant, I've painted many a wall, with landlords permission obviously. Bought the paint myself too. It may not be my responsibility/obligation or what have you, but I wouldn't think it's weird to expect a tenant might keep them fresh if remaining in the property long term. Especially if it's her business premises :pac:

It's pretty weird to expect it (and unreasonable).

If the tenant offers to do it fair play, but it's not their responsibility at all. Landlord should always pay for the paint though, tenant is just screwing themselves if they pay for it themselves.

neonsofa

awec wrote: »

It's pretty weird to expect it (and unreasonable).

If the tenant offers to do it fair play, but it's not their responsibility at all. Landlord should always pay for the paint though, tenant is just screwing themselves if they pay for it themselves.

That's why I said "expect that they might". Not expects them to actually do it.

Nah a tenant who treats the place as their home and has a good relationship with the landlord who doesn't take the piss, isn't screwing themselves by choosing to buy a bit of paint for what is currently their home. There are plenty other things that I would insist on landlords paying for but it's choosing your battles tbh and if I consider somewhere my home I treat it as such and buying a bit of paint is no big deal like.

Bredabe

When I was renting, I told the LL I worked from home and I did the odd freelance too, the nature of the work meant the postal address of the house, maybe used as part of the companies paper work. My job checked with their insurance and it was ok with them. LL never said anything one way or the other. So I assume that small businesses are ok under rental insurances.

Wabbit Ears

Straight up it would be an unbelievably d1ck move to do anything to prevent this small side buisness.

You'd be within your rights to of course. Yes, there are possible insurance things and all of that. You'd be in the right. But just cos you're right, doenst make it the right thing to do.

If you did this and the tenant stopped paying rent that would, IMHO, simply be Karma biting you for your own actions.

Askthe EA

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Straight up it would be an unbelievably d1ck move to do anything to prevent this small side buisness.

You'd be within your rights to of course. Yes, there are possible insurance things and all of that. You'd be in the right. But just cos you're right, doenst make it the right thing to do.

If you did this and the tenant stopped paying rent that would, IMHO, simply be Karma biting you for your own actions.

Absolute rubbish in my opinion. If the tenant brings in a client and they fall, who are they going to sue??

Wabbit Ears

I very clearly said that I agree with you on all that. Everything else is just my opnion.

cruizer101

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Straight up it would be an unbelievably d1ck move to do anything to prevent this small side buisness.

Can you guarantee that the tenant running the business in the house won't effect the landlord in anyway? No. So how can you say it would be a dick move.

It is against planning laws, it will result in more wear and tear on the house, it would potentially null and void the op house insurance (what if there was a fire caused by the business)

I understand the point that tenants have to much power in terms of overholding which may happen if you put and end to the business but you need to fully weigh up the financial risks to yourself.

Edit to add Op you may be able to anonymously report them to planning authority in which case you don't have to directly say anything to them

Askthe EA

Actually, a more realistic risk, let's say some of the beauticians equipment catches fire, house burns down. Insurance won't pay up. What then? Put it down to karma?

Askthe EA

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

I very clearly said that I agree with you on all that. Everything else is just my opnion.

How can stopping something that could actually cause the ll to lose the house be considered a 'dick move' then??

seagull

There could also be issues with revenue if they decide that this is now a business premises. At the very least, find out all the potential implications for you and explain them to your tenant.

amcalester

Askthe EA wrote: »

How can stopping something that could actually cause the ll to lose the house be considered a 'dick move' then??

Because tenants = good and landlords = bad.

beechwood55

Also does the tenant have proper insurance in place for her own business? What happens if a client sustains injury through being burnt with hot wax??

Samuel T. Cogley

beechwood55 wrote: »

Also does the tenant have proper insurance in place for her own business? What happens if a client sustains injury through being burnt with hot wax??

I believe that's extra.

jimmycrackcorm

Wabbit Ears wrote:

Straight up it would be an unbelievably d1ck move to do anything to prevent this small side buisness.

There is nothing stopping the tenant from going to their clients houses instead of using the rented house.

PhoenixParker

Bredabe wrote: »

When I was renting, I told the LL I worked from home and I did the odd freelance too, the nature of the work meant the postal address of the house, maybe used as part of the companies paper work. My job checked with their insurance and it was ok with them. LL never said anything one way or the other. So I assume that small businesses are ok under rental insurances.

They are, though that generally doesn't apply if members of the public are visiting the property as part of the business. Not sure where "by prearranged appointment only" falls on that spectrum.

In general here everyone is massively over reacting on the basis of extraordinarily little information and massive assumptions.

OP needs to stop taking this as some personal affront. Asking for updates to fixtures and fittings is not some personal insult and this tenant is otherwise a good tenant.

From the sound of it this is a single individual with no employees performing the occasional beauty treatment. Wear and tear wise that's going to be close to or within normal bounds in spite of the fear mongering here. Maybe the Facebook page suggests differently?

OP should ring her house insurance and ask how much the additional cost for allowing such a business would be. She should also ring the local planning department and see what the story is. The property remains primarily a residence and the additional traffic generated is minimal so it's likely they have no interest.

Then op could try asking for a house inspection to see if there's any cause for concern wrt wear and tear. They can also then ask the tenant about the tenants own insurance and for the additional part of the house insurance if there's an additional cost there.

karenalot

Bredabe wrote: »

When I was renting, I told the LL I worked from home and I did the odd freelance too, the nature of the work meant the postal address of the house, maybe used as part of the companies paper work. My job checked with their insurance and it was ok with them. LL never said anything one way or the other. So I assume that small businesses are ok under rental insurances.

Depends on the nature of the job. There's a big difference between working from home on a laptop and bringing in several clients a day to use equipment on them. Most businesses would need public liability insurance in place for the second instance.

grogi

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

It doesn't matter is she has appropriate insurance for her business, as someone mentioned earlier, you would be in breech of the terms and conditions of your own policy and it could be voided

Doesn't Uberrima fides apply only at inception?!

Graham

grogi wrote: »

Doesn't Uberrima fides apply only at inception?!

You'll probably find a paragraph like this in the policy.

something something something, material change of use, material change of risk, blah blah blah.....

Bredabe

karenalot wrote: »

Depends on the nature of the job. There's a big difference between working from home on a laptop and bringing in several clients a day to use equipment on them. Most businesses would need public liability insurance in place for the second instance.

LL never asked if there would be clients calling or not, as he was "through" if there was a problem I would have heard about it.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Caliden

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The insurance issues would send the ****s running down my leg if I was the landlord.

Could you really afford to pay out 50k to someone who injures themselves while in the apartment without having public liability insurance?

.......

This post has been deleted.

PhoenixParker

Caliden wrote: »

The insurance issues would send the ****s running down my leg if I was the landlord.

Could you really afford to pay out 50k to someone who injures themselves while in the apartment without having public liability insurance?

That's making a massive assumption that the tenant has no insurance in place. Insurance for self employed beauty therapist's is commonplace and easily obtained.

cruizer101

PhoenixParker wrote: »

That's making a massive assumption that the tenant has no insurance in place. Insurance for self employed beauty therapist's is commonplace and easily obtained.

True but far better for op to be aware of potential problems and ensure for herself that the issues raised are covered than assuming tenant has insurance that would cover it and op potentially being out a pocket

dennyk

I'd think even aside from the insurance (which is a major concern), if the nature of the business is such that some neighbors get annoyed by people coming and going at all hours or other such nuisances, they may complain to the local council about it and the landlord could potentially end up in trouble due to lack of planning permission or other regulatory violations. Running a home business where one simply performs work for clients remotely from your house is one thing, but actually bringing customers into the house for services creates a whole host of potential insurance and regulatory issues which really need to be addressed, and sooner rather than later.

The landlord may also want to revisit her lease agreement and consider getting professional advice on it, as any proper lease ought to have a clause forbidding commercial activity on the premises.

PhoenixParker

dennyk wrote: »

I'd think even aside from the insurance (which is a major concern), if the nature of the business is such that some neighbors get annoyed by people coming and going at all hours or other such nuisances, they may complain to the local council about it and the landlord could potentially end up in trouble due to lack of planning permission or other regulatory violations. Running a home business where one simply performs work for clients remotely from your house is one thing, but actually bringing customers into the house for services creates a whole host of potential insurance and regulatory issues which really need to be addressed, and sooner rather than later.

The landlord may also want to revisit her lease agreement and consider getting professional advice on it, as any proper lease ought to have a clause forbidding commercial activity on the premises.

There'll be one client at a time, max two if one arrives before the other leaves. That's very unlikely to be a level that will cause a nuisance or even be noticed. It's worth asking the council the question wrt planning but people are overstating the likely problem. Most likely the council will say it's not a material change of use.

JennyZ

Bridget1996 wrote: »

Im still raging, my husband is happy enough to say nothing, but my fear is what if something happens for example some trips down the stairs who is responible for that........for now I will get the carpet cleaned.......

Your lease agreement is for residential property only and if you think this person is running a business from your property that person should have public liability insurance on the property you need you need to get new tenants or discuss with a solicitor on how to get them out.

Seth Brundle

PhoenixParker wrote: »

There'll be one client at a time, max two if one arrives before the other leaves. That's very unlikely to be a level that will cause a nuisance or even be noticed. It's worth asking the council the question wrt planning but people are overstating the likely problem. Most likely the council will say it's not a material change of use.

It could be something as small as the neighbours parking spot constantly being taken by people going into the OP's house!

jamesthepeach

Askthe EA wrote: »

Absolute rubbish in my opinion. If the tenant brings in a client and they fall, who are they going to sue??

Do tell.

Graham

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Do tell.

Whoever is closest with the deepest pockets/insurance.

jamesthepeach

Caliden wrote: »

The insurance issues would send the ****s running down my leg if I was the landlord.

Could you really afford to pay out 50k to someone who injures themselves while in the apartment without having public liability insurance?

Can you show us some proof that a landlord would be paying out 50k to a tenants guest in this circumstance. Pretty sure the op hasn't let anyone know that they suspect there is a business being run from their property.

Op I would just say nothing and wouldn't clean the carpets for them. This thread is the definition of uninformed overreaction.

ED E

If I lived next door I'd be kicking up murder thats for sure. Shut it down sharpish.

harr

This very same thing was an issue for my wife a number of years ago, lady renting apartment from my wife and was doing hairdressing on the side from the apartment.. only found out when we seen a post on Facebook that she had up... We asked our insurance company and they said it definitely wasn't insured for business use and any claim made would void our insurance.
Apartment would have to changed from residential to business use if it was to continue..
She wasn't best pleased when we told her it had to stop and insisted she was only doing it free of charge for friends or friends of friends even though she had a price list up on Facebook :rolleyes:

whiskeygirl

ED E wrote: »

If I lived next door I'd be kicking up murder thats for sure. Shut it down sharpish.

Hilarious over reaction! Why? anyone I know doing this just provides services to friends and family for an extra few quid.

That extra few quid makes all the difference when your stuck renting from greedy, incompetent Irish landlords who jack up prices whenever possible and then take hissy fits when basic maintenance is requested by tenants.

Graham

Mod: can we skip the sweeping generalisations please.

Mrs OBumble

whiskeygirl wrote: »

Hilarious over reaction! Why? anyone I know doing this just provides services to friends and family for an extra few quid.

There's a world of difference between doing nixers from for friends and family vs advertising for clients on Facebook or wherever.